The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
There's a touch of humor in this so far as we are acting as Rotbart, so by asking what he thinks the best option is we are asking what we think the best option is - or alternatively, this is simply proof that Avernus has driven him well and truly insane and he can hold constructive debates with the voices in hid head despite not being a psyker. Both are darkly amusing.
I do like to think of the thread as the dark hive mind pup-petering the body of a person in universe.

This would also explain why the puppet does such bizarre things on occasion :D.

Just please, no number crunching expectations ;)
YAAY fellow number hater ;)
 
I get we have a responsibility to the Trust but we also have a responsibility to our people. While the rest of the trust can send most of their armies they aren't the ones at constant war with a deathworld/Old ones weapons lab.
We managed through our last war, which lasted quite a few year. I agree that the Primaris Execution should stay home, we have super-elite operatives to make assassinations.
 
We shouldn't commit a great amount of our elite troops for long campaigns. They'd be wasted on defending nameless colonies.

The Emperor gave us the duty to survive everything else comes second.
 
Yeah, so if one dies, we don't lose a city to a multiple-year streak of Alphas.
The fact this is an actual potential problem is probably not something most of the former Imperials saw coming.

'What do you mean we have multiple immature, psychotic, psykers running around able to destroy worlds? Thats ridiculous! There's only one world here! Why would they need more than one?'

'For that matter, why in the name of Holy Terra are there any here at all? What did we do to deserve this??!! By the Emperor, I need a drink...'

Edit: probably already mentioned to death but I don't realistically have the time to read through some 3400 pages of thread so apologies in advance for the dead horses I will unknowingly beat.
 
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Do try to recall that theres a certain expectation of us to send troops, we did get a massive boon in resources from the Trust, not repaying that in blood would be... unwise. Especially given our poor reputation at the moment we are treading a rather thin line, after all why let us get away with the stuff we do if we have nothing to show for it? (elite troops)

We should send as many troops as we can afford to be gone indefinitely with several more able to be shipped out on demand.
 
We shouldn't commit a great amount of our elite troops for long campaigns. They'd be wasted on defending nameless colonies.

The Emperor gave us the duty to survive everything else comes second.
And the best way to survive is to make sure that we defend the colonies so that we get more troops, more material and more everything in the future.

And you know to save the lives of our fellow man cause we're not dicks.

Also what CyberNinja said.

probably already mentioned to death but I don't realistically have the time to read through some 3400 pages of thread so apologies in advance for the dead horses I will unknowingly beat.
Don't worry, just address them to the thread before durin so we can try and get the answers for you first.
 
And the best way to survive is to make sure that we defend the colonies so that we get more troops, more material and more everything in the future.

And you know to save the lives of our fellow man cause we're not dicks.

I disagree. We need those elites in Avernus, the one place we can be sure that every enemy of the Trust will have on their crosshairs.

The Trust can afford to lose a random colony, but losing or weakening Avernus would directly weaken the Trust itself.


Our first priority will always be the core worlds, you know the place where the Emperor of Mankind may be born.
 
Regarding the number of comitable troops please keep the following rule of thump in mind: PDF is 10 times as nummerous as Guard and Guard is 10 times more numerous than Grenadiers.

During the at the end of Garkills third attack we could not commit more than 50% because that was the number needed to keep our cities save from the wildlife.
 
Yeah, I think we should lean on the conservative side when it come to long term term deployments, I would say 2 armies at very most should be assigned for that (thpugh I would prefer 1.5), however for short term actions we should be able send 2.5-3 armies total. Remember, Avernite forces are extremely elite units suited for spearhead asssults or holding a line against overwhelming forces, sitting around in a garrison of some random colony while our civilian population gets slaughtered in millions by wildlife would be a collossal waste of both human life and resources.
 
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I disagree. We need those elites in Avernus, the one place we can be sure that every enemy of the Trust will have on their crosshairs.

The Trust can afford to lose a random colony, but losing or weakening Avernus would directly weaken the Trust itself.


Our first priority will always be the core worlds, you know the place where the Emperor of Mankind may be born.
Mate Avernus is not automatically in the cross hairs of all the trust's enemies if it's anyone it's Vanahiem (our biggest obvious weak point) or Midgard (our capital).

Unless you had access to upper levels of the Trust Avernus as the source of neo astropaths is not really well know (besides the obvious) and even if we are destroyed we're ultimatly replaceable.

It'd take time, but a new colony can be put on Avernus.

Yeah, I think we should lean on the conservative side when it come to long term term deployments, I would say 2 armies at very most should be assigned for that (thpugh I would prefer 1.5), however for short term actions we should be able send 2.5-3 armies. Remember, Avernite forces are extremely elite units suited for spearhead asssults or holding a line against overwhelming forces, sitting around in a garrison of some random colony while our civilian population gets slaughtered in millions by wildlife would be a collossal waste of both human life and resources.
And yet we were fine deploying a much more significant proportion of our forces for over 30 years while we were taring holes in the walls of our own cities :rolleyes:.
 
Do try to recall that theres a certain expectation of us to send troops, we did get a massive boon in resources from the Trust, not repaying that in blood would be... unwise. Especially given our poor reputation at the moment we are treading a rather thin line, after all why let us get away with the stuff we do if we have nothing to show for it? (elite troops)

We should send as many troops as we can afford to be gone indefinitely with several more able to be shipped out on demand.
And the best way to survive is to make sure that we defend the colonies so that we get more troops, more material and more everything in the future.

And you know to save the lives of our fellow man cause we're not dicks.

Also what CyberNinja said.


Don't worry, just address them to the thread before durin so we can try and get the answers for you first.

Oh for gods sake, why are people acting like that the people saying that we shouldn't send too much of our troops because doing so could seriously screw us over due to the fact that we are living on one of the most dangerous places in the galaxy to the point that we tend to lose millions of soldiers to the fucking wildlife and rogue psykers and one of the four chaos gods scheming (who likely has an army of powerful pykers he took from Avernus) to wipe out all humans on the planet?

Because it's hard not to get that impression.

And you know to save the lives of our fellow man cause we're not dicks.

What part of we are living on a death world and are constanly at war don't you understand? There is a huge difference between the other worlds sending large number of soldiers because unlike us they aren't at total war with their planets all the time. If anyone is going to be a dick it's those people in that would whine about Avernus not sending most of their troops despite the fact that we legitimately need a good number of them to prevent serious losses among our own civilians by dealing with threats and potential threats.
 
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Oh for gods sake, why are people acting like that the people saying that we shouldn't send too much of our troops because doing so could seriously screw us over due to the fact that we are living on one of the most dangerous places in the galaxy to the point that we tend to lose millions of soldiers to the fucking wildlife and rogue psykers and one of the four chaos gods scheming (who likely has an army of powerful pykers he took from Avernus) to wipe out all humans on the planet?

Because it's hard not to get that impression.



What part of we are living on a death world and are constanly at war don't you understand? There is a huge difference between the other worlds sending large number of soldiers because unlike us they aren't at total war with their planets all the time. If anyone is going to be a dick it's those people in that would whine about Avernus not sending most of their troops despite the fact that we legitimately need a good number of them to prevent serious losses by dealing with threats and potential threats.
I'm completely aware of where we are I am also aware that despite your fear mongering we're not about to be completely obliterated by either the wildlife, psykers or anyone else.

The Witch Hunters, Psyker hunters, witch finders and assassins are not leaving nor are Jane or Ridcully so the psyker problems are null and void seeing how we can seemingly kill anything at gamma with no problems and most betas the same (and of course our conventional troops are really ****ing useful in an alpha fight yeah they'll do so freaking much as cannon fodder :eyeroll:) and past experience has show we can send almost everything off and be quite fine without them thank you very much.

In fact we did it for the last 30 years while ripping massive holes in our defences.
 
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Mate Avernus is not automatically in the cross hairs of all the trust's enemies if it's anyone it's Vanahiem (our biggest obvious weak point) or Midgard (our capital).

That is a very debatable point. We already had one deamonic invasion, we host the last saint of the God Emperor meaning we are at the top of the shitlist for Abomination, we have irreplaceable DAoT tech, plus we were well known among the Orks as a place that provides them with a good fight.

Who is to say that this reputation of Avernus hasn't spread to other surviving nearby Ork polities. The same Orks that are going to be boosted by the awakening of their gods in just a few years.

It'd take time, but a new colony can be put on Avernus.

Yes, if Avernus itself is replaceable then surely a mere colony can also be replaced without much trouble?
 
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(note an army is 10,000 regiments or around a hundred million men, Avernus has 4.6 armies
Wow we're tiny.
Hang on a while back you said a fight between Avernus and Midgard would be decided by on whose planet we'd be fighting on. So 5 Avernites are appropriately worth 250 Midgardians?
That doesn't sound right let me do some back of the envelope maths. Erm we were expecting 90% casualties on settling Avernus so assuming it's the same invading then we'd actually be expecting to fight 25 Midgardians. That sounds reasonable from fortified positions.

News at Ten: Avernus OP.
Back to sports.
They don't have things restricting pop growth... like angry spiders.
Im curious what our pop would be if Avernus wasn't so Avernus.
Is it a cultural choice?
Pink Skies was a 666 on a D1000 IIRC.
Huh I thought it was 3 6s on 3 d100s
 
And yet we were fine deploying a much more significant proportion of our forces for over 30 years while we were taring holes in the walls of our own cities :rolleyes:.
We never deployed more than half our forces there, and we still suffered heavy military casualties to wildlife, and I don't even want to imagine how many hundreds of millions of civilians deaths it caused (and that's before the recent increase of aggressiveness and deadliness that Avernus wildlife seem to have undergone, we are already seeing massive casualties even with full garrison, I don't even want to imagine what kind of havoc they would cause if we send mostof our military offworld).
Do try to recall that theres a certain expectation of us to send troops, we did get a massive boon in resources from the Trust, not repaying that in blood would be... unwise.
What "massive boon"? All Trust did was sell us decent amount of AM from their significant stockpile (and while they were loosing some of it per year last we checked with all AM producers significantly increading their production lately that may no longer be an issue). I don't get why are you treating simple business transaction as if it was some sort of invaluable gift.
Especially given our poor reputation at the moment we are treading a rather thin line, after all why let us get away with the stuff we do if we have nothing to show for it? (elite troops)
Nothing to show? How about Avernites being responsible for nearly every warlord kill in recent campaigns? Or leading massively successful conquest that finished two years ahead of what was considered extremely rushed estimate (and because Avernite forces almost always took most difficult and dangerous positions other forces probably suffered really low casualties as well). While our reputation may not be spotless Avernite martial ability was never in question, it's the the things we get up to when we aren't murdering everloving crap out of Trust's enemies people tend to have problems with.
 
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we did get a massive boon in resources from the Trust
That was paid from what the trust already owed us. I think we got a good price, but that's it.
We shouldn't commit a great amount of our elite troops for long campaigns. They'd be wasted on defending nameless colonies.
If they're just standing around guarding, then yes, they're definitely being wasted when they could be standing around on Avernus and guarding us from the wildlife. But I don't think this is what we're committing them to, here.
Mate Avernus is not automatically in the cross hairs of all the trust's enemies if it's anyone it's Vanahiem (our biggest obvious weak point) or Midgard (our capital).
And yet we are the world getting the most attacks.
Oh for gods sake, why are people acting like that the people saying that we shouldn't send too much of our troops because doing so could seriously screw us over due to the fact that we are living on one of the most dangerous places in the galaxy to the point that we tend to lose millions of soldiers to the fucking wildlife and rogue psykers and one of the four chaos gods scheming (who likely has an army of powerful pykers he took from Avernus) to wipe out all humans on the planet?
Dude. Punctuation really helps communication.

Guys, we're fumbling around in the dark. Do we even agree on what "extended campaign" and "short term basis" even means, and when such would go into effect?
And don't we already supply the trust with soldiers in general, as a tithe?
 
Given our situation with the wildlife, limiting our long-term commitment may be wise. Politically, I don't feel we can get away with a commitment smaller than Alfheim or Jotunheim, who are most comparable in available forces. As a compromise, perhaps we commit 1.5 armies to start, and another 1.5 for shorter campaigns. We still pull our weight, and the larger proportion committed to shorter campaigns means our troops will be most likely used as the hard-hitting spearhead they're meant to be, while limitting our vulnerability to the wildlife.
 
That is a very debatable point. We already had one deamonic invasion, we host the last saint of the God Emperor meaning we are at the top of the shitlist for Abomination, plus we were well known among the Orks as a place that provides them with a good fight.

Who is to say that this reputation of Avernus hasn't spread to other surviving nearby Ork polities. The same Orks that are going to be boosted by the awakening of their gods
We're also sitting on the most anti chaos place in the universe outside of a craftworld.

According to Lin we cleaned up after the incursion (before Garkill even came for round two) an incursion of similar proportions wouldn't be enough to shake Avernus so long as he was alive.

Similarly a larger incursion would mean, you guessed it, a bigger **** you from Avernus.

As for the Abomination I say come at us we can beat a fleet and an incursion and if it tries for an incursion it'll learn the same way Slaanesh learned not to do that.

As for Avernus's reputation if Garkill's "friends" weren't jumping us as soon as we left I'd imagine it hadn't spread all that far. I also very much doubt that orks so far away as the one in Tuzogrot's domain had much if any contact with Garkill (they might have had some as the domain might have copied Garkill's hook ships, but that might have just been our neighbours, I can't remember exactly)

I'm hardily saying we should strip all our forces from Avernus. My preferred arrangement would be 2 armies on permanent with another 1 ready to support leaving us with 1.6 on Avernus permanently.



Yes, if Avernus itself is replaceable then surely a mere colony can also be replaced without much trouble?
But why should it be?

Better to stop the orks at the colonies so we only have to rebuild them then have them blunder into the Core worlds and **** them up while giving the colonies up without a proper fight.

We never deployed more than half our forces there, and we still suffered heavy military casualties to wildlife, and I don't even want to imagine how manh hundrdd of millions of civilians death it caused (and that's before the recent increase of agressiveness and danger Avernus wildlife seem to have undergone, we are already seeing massive casualties evenn with full garrison).
No this is what we were deploying
Avernus can generally deploy half of its regular PDF, three quarters of the Helltroopers and Helguard, as well as half of the Battle Psykers for campaign. More can be deployed if the situation demands it. Portions of the militia can be deployed if necessary as well, with the example the use of militia AA regiments to bolster the forces used to take Fjol IV from the Dark Eldar.

What "massive boon"? All Trust did was sell us decent amount of AM from their significant stockpile (and while they were loosing some of it per year last we checked with all AM producers significantly increading their production lately that may no longer be an issue). I don't get why are you treating simple business transaction as if it was some sort of invaluable gift.
Well it kinda was. It was low rate and they offered it saving us time it was also a lot more AM than any single source could have gotten to us.

Nothing to show? How about being Avernites responsible for nearly every warlord kill in recent campaigns? Or leading massively successful conquest that finished two years ahead of what was considered extremely rushed estimated (and because Avernite forces almost always took most difficult and dangerous positions other forces probably suffered really low casualties as well). While our reputation may not be spotless Avernite martial ability was never in question, it's the the things we get up to when we aren't murdering everloving crap out of Trust's enemied people tend to have problems with.
And because we have a reputation I say we uphold it and save both the Trust and us a lot of trouble in the longer run (though the decrease in time was partially because of Ridcully and Xavier not Avernite troops).

And yet we are the world getting the most attacks.
Can't deny that, though either that's due to PC power or random number generators being weird.

And don't we already supply the trust with soldiers in general, as a tithe?
Yeah 15% of our Front line regiments and 30% of our Grenidires, but that's a permanent thing, not a by year thing. It only changes if we increase the size of our forces and they're considered part of the Imperial Guard.
 
I'm completely aware of where we are I am also aware that despite your fear mongering we're not about to be completely obliterated by either the wildlife, psykers or anyone else.

The Witch Hunters, Psyker hunters, witch finders and assassins are not leaving nor are Jane or Ridcully so the psyker problems are null and void seeing how we can seemingly kill anything at gamma with no problems and most betas the same (and of course our conventional troops are really ****ing useful in an alpha fight yeah they'll do so freaking much as cannon fodder :eyeroll:) and past experience has show we can send almost everything off and be quite fine without them thank you very much.

In fact we did it for the last 30 years while ripping massive holes in our defences.

Oh don't pull that fear mongering bullshit. I didn't say that we were going to be completely obliterated by wildlife, psykers or anyone else so don't make up bullshit. I said that we would likely experience a lot of trouble and/or casualties due to the fact that we don't have enough people around especially our most elite soldiers. Some people even suggested sending literally all of our most elite conventional elite soliders and 3/4 of our battle psykers.

The Witch Hunters, Psyker hunters, witch finders and assassins are not leaving nor are Jane or Ridcully so the psyker problems are null and void seeing how we can seemingly kill anything at gamma with no problems and most betas the same (and of course our conventional troops are really ****ing useful in an alpha fight yeah they'll do so freaking much as cannon fodder :eyeroll:) and past experience has show we can send almost everything off and be quite fine without them thank you very much.

1) Those guys are meant to fight psykers, not defend the rest of the cities from wildlife.

2) Most of our most elite anti psyker units are being held in reserve for the most powerful psykers so the ones lower than beta are still likely to do a ton of damage if we don't have enough of our elite forces on Avernus.

In fact we did it for the last 30 years while ripping massive holes in our defences.

3) We just got word that Avernus was going to ramp up and considering how dangerous the wildlife can be as seen when they get serious this could be a serious problem and may change estimates. We also weren't dealing with super orks, which I might point out that once the time for them to start showing up had the trust call back most of their forces in preparation.

Again, not saying that we shouldn't send as much people as reasonable. Just pointing out some things people seem to have missed.
 
Better to stop the orks at the colonies so we only have to rebuild them then have them blunder into the Core worlds and **** them up while giving the colonies up without a proper fight.

Yeah but we can do all that without leaving gaping holes in our own planet's defences.

And don't forget that our population has been growing continuously while our military forces have been constantly been taking heavy casualties for decades, meaning we haven't had the time to expanding our military since we were too busy refilling the losses.

So overall our military would be more overstretched than in the past.
 
Oh don't pull that fear mongering bullshit. I didn't say that we were going to be completely obliterated by wildlife, psykers or anyone else so don't make up bullshit.
Then don't start yelling at people and acting like we will.

I said that we would likely experience a lot of trouble and/or casualties due to the fact that we don't have enough people around especially our most elite soldiers. Some people even suggested sending literally all of our most elite conventional elite soliders and 3/4 of our battle psykers.
Our elite soldiers can be deployed off world almost in their entirety even with the ramp up of the wildlife while the PDF does it's job.

Even better for you nobody was saying we should deploy everything off world even our previous deployment plan was 3/4s of the Hellmen.

2) Most of our most elite anti psyker units are being held in reserve for the most powerful psykers so the ones lower than beta are still likely to do a ton of damage if we don't have enough of our elite forces on Avernus.
Mate we can kill off anything below Delta with ease with just our veteran psyker hunters, everything above gamma gets flattened by the witch hunters and conventional troops are pretty much useless against beta levels in our cities. At best they get in the way.

Let Jane be Jane. And even then our most elite psyker units are reserved for Alphas, but the other non execution forces didn't suddenly go on holiday... except for the ones "on holiday" fighting super orks.

3) We just got word that Avernus was going to ramp up and considering how dangerous the wildlife can be as seen when they get serious this could be a serious problem and may change estimates. We also weren't dealing with super orks, which I might point out that once the time for them to start showing up had the trust call back most of their forces in preparation.
They've been ramped up for over a turn now, with casualties hovering around 2 million. Nasty, but nothing we can't deal with and they are inflated apparently due to our defensive upgrades.

With them finishing they'll hopefully go down a bit.

The Super Orks emerging are a concern however especially dependant on what Avernus will do.

The Trust calling back it's forces was preordained mate, it was decided at the emergency meeting that when Ridcully said we had ten years left all Trust forces were to pull back on defence.

Again, not saying that we shouldn't send as much people as reasonable. Just pointing out some things people seem to have missed.
Apart from considerations of the Super Orks I don't think I've missed anything.

I just have more confidence in our people's ability to keep casualties down so long as we don't do something completely stupid or grandiose.

For now my recommended deployment is 2 permanent 1-0.5 of an army ready to move off world on a short term basis.

That'd leave between 1.6-2.1 army on Avernus at all times.

Yeah but we can do all that without leaving gaping holes in our own planet's defences.

And don't forget that our population has been growing continuously while our military forces have been constantly been taking heavy casualties for decades, meaning we haven't had the time to expanding our military since we were too busy refilling the losses.

So overall our military would be more overstretched than in the past.
We still have constant recruitment and because of that bigger population size we can loose whole percent of our military each year and automatically replace it.

With any luck 160 million men is enough to defend our walls and streets, though I could be wrong.

However, I do think we need to institute an upgrade to constant recruitment so our army grows with our population size rather than our population size constantly out pacing it.

Problem is that'd be expensive as ****.
 
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We also weren't dealing with super orks, which I might point out that once the time for them to start showing up had the trust call back most of their forces in preparation.
That's also a really good point actually. Out of all core worlds (and probably even colonies, they may be former ork worlds but any large concentration of orks on those worlds can be detected and exterminated before they grow out of controll unlike on Avernus) we have by far biggest ork infestation which will become huge problem pretty much immediately once G&M awakens.

@Durin -
1. Will "Expand PDF" Munitorum action become available soon? Because currently we seem to have lowest percentage of population serving in military than any other core Trust world (except Asgard, but they don't really count since their main military might is Knights obviuosly) which is pretty sorry state of affairs for militarized deathworld. It's also the main source of argument going on now, if we could at leadt double our PDF (which still only bring it to ~4% of our population) I would much more willing to send larger portion of our forces offworld.
However, I do think we need to institute an upgrade to constant recruitment so our army grows with our population size rather than our population size constantly out pacing it.

Problem is that'd be expensive as ****.
Ehh, I don't know. As long as we keep to PDF only it shouldn't be too bad (and we can expand Heltroopers/Helguard manually when we have sufficient AM/EM available).
 
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3) We just got word that Avernus was going to ramp up and considering how dangerous the wildlife can be as seen when they get serious this could be a serious problem and may change estimates. We also weren't dealing with super orks
Right, that reminds me that we have orks on Avernus. Something to keep in mind, and also something to observe closely in five years time.
which will become huge problem pretty much immediately once G&M awakens.
Yeah.
Problem is that'd be expensive as ****.
It should be fine when we're done with our city upgrades and get our super-forges going.

How about we start a preliminary vote regarding the military commitment?
Do you guys think we can ask Durin for a few options to vote for, something with a few indicators of what impact each has on our own security?
 
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