While I agree with you, I still must point out that a lot depends on what durin is going for. When we finally reestablish contact with the sector and beyond the only thing we might find is heretics. Heretics everywhere. Take Jericho sector for example. It was painful to read, but that piece of shit is canon. Seriously, a rich and civilized sector falling into heresy and madness in the span of a single generation? Deathwatch twidling their thumbs and doing nothing? Dafuq....
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
[x] Detach 30 escorts (10 squadrons of 3) from Admiral Freyr's fleet to conduct surveillance of the outer system for inbound Tyranid forces. They are to avoid contact with the current Tyranid fleet. The remaining fleet under Admiral Freyr's command is to close with the Tyranid fleet and destroy the enemy force.
- [X] If possible without undue risk, capture the last few surviving vessels intact to take home for later analysis.
- [X] Organize wargames between the various forces on Alfheim in lieu of them seeing actual combat during this war, with different alliances in the scenarios to improve cooperation between our forces and foster better relations among the sub-sector's militaries.
- [X] Do an extremely thorough sweep of Alfheim for Tyranids that slip through from space, or that preceded the fleet's arrival in system.
- [X] Consult with the King and our fellow generals about public works (including defense works) that we can do while all this extra manpower is on Alfheim.
(I am particularly interested in building some basic defenses at all the regional cities throughout the farming zone, but there are other things we can do - the idea is to make future defenses of Alfheim easier, leave the locals some good things to remember the sector's soldier's by, increase future food security and help bond the fighting men of the sector by having them work alongside each-other.)
fasquardon
- [X] If possible without undue risk, capture the last few surviving vessels intact to take home for later analysis.
- [X] Organize wargames between the various forces on Alfheim in lieu of them seeing actual combat during this war, with different alliances in the scenarios to improve cooperation between our forces and foster better relations among the sub-sector's militaries.
- [X] Do an extremely thorough sweep of Alfheim for Tyranids that slip through from space, or that preceded the fleet's arrival in system.
- [X] Consult with the King and our fellow generals about public works (including defense works) that we can do while all this extra manpower is on Alfheim.
(I am particularly interested in building some basic defenses at all the regional cities throughout the farming zone, but there are other things we can do - the idea is to make future defenses of Alfheim easier, leave the locals some good things to remember the sector's soldier's by, increase future food security and help bond the fighting men of the sector by having them work alongside each-other.)
fasquardon
Even if we do, that just helps solidify our own rule, as we're the last loyal part of the Imperium left, so we can build on all the pro-Imperium conditioning. It actually makes it easier to do so, even as it makes all sorts of other things harder.
Isn't it implied that there was something else behind that?
The "social conditioning" you are talking about is bad, with bad practices, bad tradition and bad laws.
No one loves the Imperium, they fear it's power and are taught to be terrified of the Emperor's wrath. It is a institution of fear and tirany.
Rebelions will pop up everywhere which will be successful when the Imperium can't just send anymore a fleet to beat it down.
There will be dictators using those same Imperium assets to set them selves up as kings.
If we want to change our laws and society to not be so oppressive as the average Imperial world is then we need to assume the power to do so.
Acting like we have the authority from the Imperium is not gonna work in every situation and assuming it brings a lot of baggage. One which includes that 99% of the people in Imperium hate living in it.
Imperium "social conditioning" is horrible. Worse than what nazies, aztects and soviets have done. I have no itention of perpetiuating it because it's stupid and we will need to reign with fear dialed up to 11 for us to use it.
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I almost guarantee that within a generation the Imperium will become a golden age, a mythical time of peace and prosperity. That's the way these things work. They said the same of Rome, after it fell, and tried to draw legitimacy from its memory in exactly the same way we should.
Also, the vast majority of the population honestly love the Emperor, even though his mortal agents may be fallible and corrupt, they still passionately believe in him and his Imperium. He and it are not hated. It is the status quo that everything is used to and basically satisfied with.
We don't need to do anything at all differently from what we're doing now. Imperial worlds don't have to be oppressive hell holes, as we're demonstrating very satisfactorly right now. There's just about nothing we need to change.
We have an allied Inquisitor. We have effectively unlimited authority within the Imperium as long as he goes along with it.
Also, the vast majority of the population honestly love the Emperor, even though his mortal agents may be fallible and corrupt, they still passionately believe in him and his Imperium. He and it are not hated. It is the status quo that everything is used to and basically satisfied with.
We don't need to do anything at all differently from what we're doing now. Imperial worlds don't have to be oppressive hell holes, as we're demonstrating very satisfactorly right now. There's just about nothing we need to change.
We have an allied Inquisitor. We have effectively unlimited authority within the Imperium as long as he goes along with it.
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- Location
- USA
[x] Detach 30 escorts (10 squadrons of 3) from Admiral Freyr's fleet to conduct surveillance of the outer system for inbound Tyranid forces. They are to avoid contact with the current Tyranid fleet. The remaining fleet under Admiral Freyr's command is to close with the Tyranid fleet and destroy the enemy force.
I can't see any way that we can safely study Tyranid ships. I get that we want to research better ways to counter them, but trying to quarantine a live being as large as a ship seems really unlikely; especially if we have to navigate it back through the warp to get it to Avernus. Unless durin rules otherwise, I'm firmly against any plans to do research on Tyranid ships.
I can't see any way that we can safely study Tyranid ships. I get that we want to research better ways to counter them, but trying to quarantine a live being as large as a ship seems really unlikely; especially if we have to navigate it back through the warp to get it to Avernus. Unless durin rules otherwise, I'm firmly against any plans to do research on Tyranid ships.
- Location
- Cyberspace
... everyone's so damn hasty to eagerly declare Rotbart the new Sector Government or the like.
Just... don't. We have no idea when the collapse is going to occur, the form it'll take, the length of time, how it'll be perceived by, say, the Inquisitor, whose reaction to what appears to be a usurpation of Imperial authority is a quick removal and so on.
Rotbart holds Avernus - and I can't see anything post-collapse changing that. He's an exceptional leader who the governors of the other planets are quite likely going to follow the lead of. He doesn't *need* some fancy title or the pretense of complete authority. He has actual power a-plenty.
Just... don't. We have no idea when the collapse is going to occur, the form it'll take, the length of time, how it'll be perceived by, say, the Inquisitor, whose reaction to what appears to be a usurpation of Imperial authority is a quick removal and so on.
Rotbart holds Avernus - and I can't see anything post-collapse changing that. He's an exceptional leader who the governors of the other planets are quite likely going to follow the lead of. He doesn't *need* some fancy title or the pretense of complete authority. He has actual power a-plenty.
Yeah, I too consider preserving Imperium in miniature more valuable than whatever benefits we might get if we decide to go and do things the more "sensible" way.
Yeah, it happened because of Vandire cronies taking control and fucking everything up, plus a bunch of other unfortunate shit, but still, I refuse to believe the whole sector slipped into barbarism and heresy "in the span of a single generation".
Do you read Imperial propaganda and what Eclessiarch typically preach?
The Emperor does not love you. He demands obediance and if not your soul is damned to literal hell. Fear the Emperor for he is always watching and will pass out punishment to the wicked.
Which just means if you are not rich or powerful you get shit on by the Imperium.
That's not really how the worship of the Emperor is portrayed. It's usually on the The Emperor loves humanity as a father does his children, giving his own life to sit on the Golden Throne so he can watch over them and protect them.
dragon
Ancalagon the Black
- Location
- The Skies of Arda
Okay then, i'll put it back up.@dragon Aww, I wanted to like your post.
Yeah, but then I saw people switching from watching for necrons to watching for tyranids.
...which kinda makes less sense, since we know the shadow in the warp is dispersing.
And if necrons are coming, then they're either far enough away to arrive after the battle or close enough that we should already see them.
So we don't need to split our fleet before the final clash. We don't need to send the light cruisers aways when the frigates are faster and a third of our light cruisers wouldn't stop an incursion anyways.
Lets fight the battle, then we can have the entire fleet search the system for tyranid remnants, necrons, or anything else.
[X] Finish off the tyranids. Make sure none of them escape.
- [X] Organize wargames between the various forces on Alfheim in lieu of them seeing actual combat during this war, with different alliances in the scenarios to improve cooperation between our forces and foster better relations among the sub-sector's militaries.
- [X] Do an extremely thorough sweep of Alfheim for Tyranids that slip through from space, or that preceded the fleet's arrival in system.
- [X] Consult with the King and our fellow generals about public works (including defense works) that we can do while all this extra manpower is on Alfheim.
-[X] Donate some impalers to the Alfheim PDF.
Added leaving some impalers behind because it isn't a huge expense and should create some goodwill since we know king zaren is worried about his defenses.
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Its probably best to stay as a blob for now in space. Top targets should be:
1. Anything headed towards the planet. (Keep off their lawn!)
2. The biggest groups. (Most immediately dangerous ones... keep them from massing up and recoordinating.)
3. Any bioships actively trying to absorb the biomass of the destroyed ships. (Recycled reinforcements bad.)
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The sector government post IoM should handle the following issues:
1. Coordinating the military spaceships. (Planet by planet controlled fleets are asking for largely pointless infighting.)
2. Maintaining sector wide communication lines. (If we can't talk with it regularly its out of reasonable control range, thus over extention.)
3. Providing a forum for interplanetary bickering and coordination. Also, handling extrasectorial treaties.
4. Maintaining and defending internal supply lines. (External lines of trade and such handled as needed.)
5. Shoring up defenses and infrastructure of membership planets. (We want to be an attractive option.)
6. Tithe collection and record keeping administrators.
I think everything else is just extensions and fiddly bits of these points. In broad strokes... does anyone have anything to add? Remember these are functions of sector government. Stuff that can be handled in house is best left there unless given a reason to interfere.
Once we can agree on what the Sector government (or whatever unit size we end up with) is actually responsible for we can discus the details.
1. Anything headed towards the planet. (Keep off their lawn!)
2. The biggest groups. (Most immediately dangerous ones... keep them from massing up and recoordinating.)
3. Any bioships actively trying to absorb the biomass of the destroyed ships. (Recycled reinforcements bad.)
---
The sector government post IoM should handle the following issues:
1. Coordinating the military spaceships. (Planet by planet controlled fleets are asking for largely pointless infighting.)
2. Maintaining sector wide communication lines. (If we can't talk with it regularly its out of reasonable control range, thus over extention.)
3. Providing a forum for interplanetary bickering and coordination. Also, handling extrasectorial treaties.
4. Maintaining and defending internal supply lines. (External lines of trade and such handled as needed.)
5. Shoring up defenses and infrastructure of membership planets. (We want to be an attractive option.)
6. Tithe collection and record keeping administrators.
I think everything else is just extensions and fiddly bits of these points. In broad strokes... does anyone have anything to add? Remember these are functions of sector government. Stuff that can be handled in house is best left there unless given a reason to interfere.
Once we can agree on what the Sector government (or whatever unit size we end up with) is actually responsible for we can discus the details.
Hum, we could just minimize fleet casualties now that the fleet is mostly disorganized.
If some remaining Tyranid forces manage to make landfall it would give our forces target practice...
Of course, this would mean denying admiral Freyr his glory and might give Alfheim some trouble in the form of a minor Tyranid infestation but it would allow us to preserve some space assets for future invasions...
If some remaining Tyranid forces manage to make landfall it would give our forces target practice...
Of course, this would mean denying admiral Freyr his glory and might give Alfheim some trouble in the form of a minor Tyranid infestation but it would allow us to preserve some space assets for future invasions...
They and we will (hopefully) have years to rebuild the strength of our respective space forces. Better not to risk the Tyranids managing to land somewhere we can't get at them immediately. We have the wargames to ensure our troops don't get bored
They and we will (hopefully) have years to rebuild the strength of our respective space forces. Better not to risk the Tyranids managing to land somewhere we can't get at them immediately. We have the wargames to ensure our troops don't get bored
Just throwing out an option.
Doesn't really feel like a proper war without Rotbart duelling a champion of the opposing faction after all.
It's tradition.
That, and I think Durin needs/wants to get the new ground combat mechanics out of his system one way or the other...
Please keep in mind that the Imperium is a very diverse place. The official tagline is "a million worlds", but it's probably much more than that. While thanks to the STCs and some form of interplanetary and sector nobility giving a common starting point for the culture with things like architecture and language, there is no way you're keeping a trillion human beings on the same page culturally, legally or religiously except in the broadest possible strokes. The Administratum generally doesn't care how a planet is run so long as a) you pay your taxes and b) you don't make them come over there. The Ecclesiarchy likewise is not a monolithic organization so much as a rough approximation of the various churches for the Emperor in his various guises. On a Hive World with an Orwellian dictatorship he could be the Big Brother figure like you're describing, but on a Feral World he could be the stand in for Zeus who is the Sky Father, or an Agriworld that had an Ork infestation he could be remembered as the great hero that saved the humans of that world as a King Arthur figure. Deacon Lin is emphasizing the Emperor as a caring paternal figure, and while the Sisters of Battle are the most well-known of the Adeptus Sororitas you're far more likely to find a Sister Dialogus or Sister Hosplitar, who cares for the Emperor's children with their temporal needs.
Are there shit worlds in the Imperium where what you describe is true? Almost assuredly. Is that the only kind of place you'll find? Of course not. Is it even the norm? I doubt it.
This is pretty much correct. The Ecclesiarchy enforces some standard tenets that must be followed, but there's quite a bit of variance. Yes, obedience to the government's authority (as they speak for the Emperor) is one of the standards, but that doesn't mean the Emperor isn't preached as a loving god in places. Remember, "the Emperor protects", and protectors are generally seen as caring for those they protect.
I can't believe people are trying to ignore canon in how it portrays that MOST of the Imperium is a totalitarian dystopia that applies neural grafts to people cause it's faster than send them to school but causes them to go mad in a few short years, this if not they aren't turned into cyberzombie slaves called servitors to maintain the machines. The priviledge opressing the masses who are in fear for their lives on a daily basis, works on a judicial system that is anything but just. Individual Imperium members called Inquisitors who have authority to issue genocide of entire worlds by themselves. All this built around technology which the majority doesn't understand and the guild who does jealously protects the knowledge even from themselves which has led to slow decay of the infrastructure.
The place is not anywhere near close to having the laws, organization or leadership to be a just, comfortable or even a humane place to live.
The place is not anywhere near close to having the laws, organization or leadership to be a just, comfortable or even a humane place to live.
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And you ignore the canon that says that while there are many places like that, there are also many places which are just pretty decent places to live all considered, because the Imperium is bug fuck huge and in general they really don't care about the specifics of any given planet as long as the tithe is paid in time and no real heresy takes place there. And that Inquisitors are really really really fucking rare and that even counting those undercover, most people will never even meet someone who has meet an Inquisitor, and that even the majority of the planetary governors of most worlds won't have much more than a quick diplomatic chat with a passing Inquisitor going somewhere where there's actually reason to act.
In fact, I'd expect the average of planets (not of the average person, because Hive planets really skew those numbers
)to be somewhat bad but hardly particularly oppressing, mostly because active oppression is a lot of work. Are you familiar with the phrase 'accentuate the negative'? Because the source material I've read (mostly the Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain books) made no mention of these neural grafts (which seems like an odd thing to use for day-to-day work anyway; why risk valuable technology on the masses when you can have a prestigious caste of HVAC repairmen who operate in guilds under the supervision of the AdMech instead?). While sometimes servators are made from prisoners (or, depending on the kind of servator, a reward for faithful servants), most are vat-grown human bodies with the sole intention of becoming a servator.
Inquisitors aren't the only people allowed to declare Extermanatus, and it's not like they toss that right around willy-nilly. Sometimes it's the right call to make, but after killing a world they have to defend their actions from their peers.
Jeezus Christ on a pongo stick, will you stop that already? Most of us do not ignore this. I`m pretty sure that most of us acknowledge that these things happen in the Imperium and quite often. What you seem to be missing is that Warhammer 40k is not a monolithic universe set in stone. Seriously. It is open for interpretation. Actually, every fan of wh40k is actively encouraged to come up with his own interpretation of warhammer. And each and every one of us is going to be correct. Why? Because the lore is not consistent. You can find justification for anything in the fluff.
Ad mech are uneducated morons who only know how to slap their dicks on their technology and chant some nonsensical woodoo to make it work? There are examples in the fluff. Ad mech being future tech wizards who reverse engineer necron tech and can give eclipse phase the run for their money? You can find examples of that too.
Starships being fueled by slaves using actual gods damned shovels to shovel reactor fuel into their reactors and torpedoes being loaded by hand by thousands of slaves ? I`m pretty sure I have seen that. Starships fighting at 0.75c and every one of them having a god damn A.I.? Yep, there are examples of that.
Inquisitors being trigger happy idiots who wouldn`t know heresy even if it slapped them in the face and just authorising exterminatus at the drop of the hat? Yep. Inquisitors being sensible people doing the best they can in the universe where everyone and their mother wants humanity dead and chaos corruption is a subtle and catastrophic threat and authorising exterminatus only when all other options are exausted? Again, yes.
The planets of the Imperium being hellholes where dictators and degenerate nobility oppress the masses for the lulz? These things happen. Normal planets with normal government where life for the average citizen is better than what we have today? Happens too. More often than one might think.
.....
So no, we did not forget these things. Most of us just have different interpretation of warhammer universe than you. Less grimderp one, I might add.
I was talking about most of the Imperium which I counted as most Hive World, Forge Worlds or worlds that work their people like 3rd world sweatshops which happens on a lot of mining worlds.And you ignore the canon that says that while there are many places like that, there are also many places which are just pretty decent places to live all considered, because the Imperium is bug fuck huge and in general they really don't care about the specifics of any given planet as long as the tithe is paid in time and no real heresy takes place there. And that Inquisitors are really really really fucking rare and that even counting those undercover, most people will never even meet someone who has meet an Inquisitor, and that even the majority of the planetary governors of most worlds won't have much more than a quick diplomatic chat with a passing Inquisitor going somewhere where there's actually reason to act.
In fact, I'd expect the average of planets (not of the average person, because Hive planets really skew those numbers
What you and I consider a criminal is not the same thing as what the Imperium considers a criminal. As I said there is little justice found in the Imperium's law for the poor and layman.
While there have been Inquisitors who have used that authority in appropriate circumstances there have been other times I don't know if less or more where the Inquisitor made a mistake. He may be thrown out of office or executed for his actions, but by then billions have died. I would prefer if a Inquisitor had to have the approval of other people, be they other Inquisitors or high ranking Imperium leaders to issue Exterminatus.
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The other thing is, in an Imperium of millions of worlds, everyone can be right. The Imperium, the Mechanicus, and its institutions are not monoliths. There's massive variance between diferent areas as long as the basic rules are followed, which are pretty simple.
- Location
- Russia
Well, if we go strictly by BFG rules, then a lot of ships are relatively intact. Roll results 2-7 on 2d6 for catastrophic damage result in intact hull moving in space reflexively (without explosions or anything like that).