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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
- Location
- Northern Ireland, UK
Okay, updated my table again.
I agree the Het project is not that hot but the price we're paying now is negligible, it's one year worth of diplomatic actions. While possibility of significant gains is low, it's still statistically better than yet another reexamine planet or improve relationship we were spamming recently.
Sound out does not mean commitment on our part.
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Evil M. Lurker
What Lurks at Midnight
- Location
- The City, USA
How workable would a joint colony with Niflheim really be? Normal humans are freaked out by Niflheimr, and Niflheimr usually ignore normals.
Given that we're psyker heavy and they are null-heavy, it's going to be interesting.
- Location
- Leeds
My answer is only if we aren't settling our own planet or a new region.
I'm against it in general.
I want to focus colonization efforts on Avernus itself.
Think it is the centre for organisation, not recruitment. Having Avernite population won't make any difference.
As to sending colonists anywhere, I'm against it. We need population to build and expand our cities, even if we are just filling in the holes rather than settling a new region.
I think we should have a breeding colony. Without wildlife attacks and with support from home a civilized world with Avernites colonists will easily have 10% population growth. If we can get some of them to reimmigrate, it'll be a major population influx. And they'll be already a little prepared for the life on Avernus.
I'll note that even when we were sending 25 million people a year to Byzantium that our population growth was still positive. Hell, Duat filled up to maximum capacity last turn. Currently 25 million people represent only about .2% of our population, and our growth is well above .2%, so it's not like we can't afford it and still colonize areas of Avernus at the same time.
Recruitment to the Imperial Guard happens from all planets, and it makes logistical sense for a greater portion of the Imperial Guard stationed there to be recruited from Danaan and other local planets than from the nine founding worlds. If you look at how Byzantium's military ended up in terms of their starting point, then doing the same for Danaan would likely have similar results.
There's also the matter of cultural influence. One of the major reasons we wanted to send so many colonists to Byzantium was because it would influence the culture of the planet, likely making the population more progressive as opposed to conservative.
- Location
- Somewhere, Maybe
[X] Add stealth sub-specialisation
[X] Plan Enjou T91
[X] Plan Enjou T91
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It isn't about viability. Merely cost benefit.
I was under the impression that the IG was a proportion of each planet's military. If so them the majority of all Trust guard is Midgardian, as they have more than two thirds of the Trust's population and a high proportional military.
Sending Avernites as colonists will buff the militia and PDF, not the IG.
Unlikely to work so well. At least some of Byzantium's bonuses come from the marines.
By this logic we should be exporting people to all the Trust worlds to influence their culture and stiffen their militia.
(Propose population exchanges during the next high council meeting?)
I would prefer we focus on improving Avernus specifically than slowing our development to generate temporary bonuses on other planets. Particularly as this kind of action tends to set precedents. We sent a bunch of people to the first colony of the Trust, providing the core of their military. Now you want to send a bunch of people to the second colony of the trust to provide a core for their military. If this continues we will be expected to provide start up population for every colony. While that wouldn't be crippling it would be a significant and very long term drain on us.
If the bonus was permanent it might be worth it. However the Deathworlder trait only lasts a generation (maybe diminishing over several if we are lucky). In exchange for that we slow the exploration of Avernus which permanently improves our Deathworlder bonus.
How about instead of sending colonists we refund The Teachers, sending some units to train the new colony's militia and PDF? Much the same long-term gains but without the population cost.
Well since it's clear that people are not actually in favor of expanding to Het I went ahead and removed that in exchange for the Investigate relationship.
I believe that means the only differences are the wording of the Siren Trade (I left it with the verbiage Durin approved instead of adding a request for runes), and that I improve the stealth on the Recon armor instead of the Elite armor.
Posting Het settlement idea here in case we come back to it:
Since it still seems to me that it makes far too much sense to involve Nilfheim in settling Het when we get around to it. I still don't understand the opposition to getting help from the Ice World Promethium miners in settling our Ice World full of Promethium.
I believe that means the only differences are the wording of the Siren Trade (I left it with the verbiage Durin approved instead of adding a request for runes), and that I improve the stealth on the Recon armor instead of the Elite armor.
Posting Het settlement idea here in case we come back to it:
Approach Nilfheim about cooperation in settling Het, the Promethium rich Ice World in the Helheim system. Since they had expressed interest in future ice worlds discovered by the Trust, and we have an ice world right inside the Helheim system. There have been three obstacles to Avernus settling this world, one major and two minor. The minor difficulties are the time and resources necessary to establish cities in an environment we have little experience with, and the expenditure of Advanced Materials to maintain static defenses. Nilfheim has the experience with this environment, and the AM required to maintain the static defenses are 9,000 to 10,000 a year (this assumes equivalent static defenses to those currently above Avernus), an amount that Nilfheim's civilians have proven the ability to produce, even with small population numbers.
The major obstacle is mainly population. Avernus still has many unsettled regions, so there is plenty of room for expansion on the primary planet. Nilfheim already has a large population, that is also used to the environment, and has the needed skills for exploiting Het's Promethium resources. There also seem to be advantages, as this would not require extending the Imperial Trust resources to defend a new system. The system defense fleet is already there to protect Cumae and Avernus. Food, Metal, and Material are easily supplied from the world of Avernus.
Is there a way to work out some measure of cooperation in settling Het?
Assistance we would want from Nilfheim:
Expertise and assistance in founding cities on Het
Population (or if they think it would work, we could approach Midgard for colonists)
Expertise, and possibly assistance in production of Promethium in the Het environment
Establishment of industry to produce Advanced/Exotic Materials
What would Nilfheim want from Avernus:
Obviously construction of planetary defenses
Compensation? A provision on metal being sent to Nilfheim? Preference in the next 100 years of trade?
Possible points of discussion:
Military Control
Arbites Control
Administrative Control
Technology Control
Avernus would want to maintain official control of the worlds in our system, with military forces from Het being a part of our military forces. Perhaps some assurances could be given that technology deployed on Het would be done through the Administration and not the Mechanicus? If that is an issue.
Avernite Goals:
1: Establish a closer political relationship with Nilfheim (somewhat similar to what they seem to have with Muspelheim?)
2: Additional producer of AM/EM in Helheim system
3: Potential for more cooperation on technological development as the Mechanicus grows more progressive
4: Additional military point of strength in the Helheim system
The major obstacle is mainly population. Avernus still has many unsettled regions, so there is plenty of room for expansion on the primary planet. Nilfheim already has a large population, that is also used to the environment, and has the needed skills for exploiting Het's Promethium resources. There also seem to be advantages, as this would not require extending the Imperial Trust resources to defend a new system. The system defense fleet is already there to protect Cumae and Avernus. Food, Metal, and Material are easily supplied from the world of Avernus.
Is there a way to work out some measure of cooperation in settling Het?
Assistance we would want from Nilfheim:
Expertise and assistance in founding cities on Het
Population (or if they think it would work, we could approach Midgard for colonists)
Expertise, and possibly assistance in production of Promethium in the Het environment
Establishment of industry to produce Advanced/Exotic Materials
What would Nilfheim want from Avernus:
Obviously construction of planetary defenses
Compensation? A provision on metal being sent to Nilfheim? Preference in the next 100 years of trade?
Possible points of discussion:
Military Control
Arbites Control
Administrative Control
Technology Control
Avernus would want to maintain official control of the worlds in our system, with military forces from Het being a part of our military forces. Perhaps some assurances could be given that technology deployed on Het would be done through the Administration and not the Mechanicus? If that is an issue.
Avernite Goals:
1: Establish a closer political relationship with Nilfheim (somewhat similar to what they seem to have with Muspelheim?)
2: Additional producer of AM/EM in Helheim system
3: Potential for more cooperation on technological development as the Mechanicus grows more progressive
4: Additional military point of strength in the Helheim system
Since it still seems to me that it makes far too much sense to involve Nilfheim in settling Het when we get around to it. I still don't understand the opposition to getting help from the Ice World Promethium miners in settling our Ice World full of Promethium.
HanEmpire
Delicious
Plan @Enjou and Plan @Elder Haman are now identical.
The only difference is that Enjou is adding Stealth tech to Elite Armour while Elder Haman is adding it to Recon Armour.
The only difference is that Enjou is adding Stealth tech to Elite Armour while Elder Haman is adding it to Recon Armour.
Yes, the IG is a portion of the planet's military. And what, you think none of the Avernite colonists on Danaan would join the military? If there's a large number of Avernite colonists, then they're more than likely to form the core of that colony's military, and in doing so will make it much more likely that Avernite military methodologies and traditions are adopted by that world in the long run - that's not a temporary bonus, but a permanent benefit.
Having half of their population come from Avernus almost certainly had a large effect, so even without the Marines colonists on Danaan.
Except that's not practical, even if the worlds would welcome it (they wouldn't). Supporting an important colony by sending Avernite colonists every now and then is, though.
We would not have to send population to every single world and nobody is suggesting that. Just the ones we think are important enough to warrant it, like we did for Byzantium, and like I think is important for Danaan. Sending a lot of our skilled, military trained colonists helps those worlds become strong points.
I'm taking the long view on this - the stronger we can make the Trust as a whole, the better off we'll be, even if that means our local population doesn't grow as fast as it possibly could. Sending 25 million colonists a year becomes less and less of a burden as time goes on anyways, given it becomes a smaller and smaller fraction of the population.
The Teachers still exist, but they're PDF. Sending them also would have a lesser effect on the military development, because they could only do so much as a temporary group.
- Location
- Brazil, Minas gerais
I am still trying to find where is my first vote, since it dont appear on my profile (this is very strange) but in the tally i am be counting twice, so my vote is for the enjou plan, if I cant find my first post (that i had vote for the first plan).
The specialization vote and the plan vote are separate, so each of those votes are being counted as individual lines. You've only voted once, so you're fine.
- Location
- Brazil, Minas gerais
thanks I really was trying to avoid that. Since I could not remember (or find).
- Location
- The internet
Personally, if we are looking for a diplomacy action, we might want to talk with Asgard about seconding some of their Knights Folorn as a boarding force.
- Location
- To the left. No, not there, the other left.
Actually we sent 50 million per year:
And as I said before I support certain amount emigration for moral reasons - there are reason why Avernus is called a hellword, it's a horrifying place to live, and people shouldn't be forced to live on it against their will, because that way lays worst ways of Old Imperium and Abomination. Thankfully majority of our population are willing (and even happy) to live on Avernus, taking great pride in their duty, however there will always be a minority who will want to leave, maybe it because they lost too many people close to them to this planet, maybe they suffer from PTSD or similar traumas, maybe their child has born weak and has no chance of surviving growing up on a hyperdeathworld, maybe they just lack mental fortitude to deal with constant dangers. Alowing those people to leave will most likely slightly accelerate our evolution and increase morale (not that we really need it, but we maintained our ludicrous morale by taking every morale bonus we could get). Again we should limit emigration to something sensible (say, no more than 0.25% of our population per year), but even then it would allow those in really in need to leave and start somewhere else.
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dragon
Ancalagon the Black
- Location
- The Skies of Arda
In general I agree with the educational review, but don't we still have have those nifleheim teaching machines that are more flexible and capable of being used on young people? Unless we have a ruling that it was restricted to jane's super operatives, I think it would be more effective to spread the new teaching machines to our lower schools and only then doing a review to improve educational practices.
As for the improved embassies, this is something I strongly agree with. We spend to many actions trying to stay on good terms with everybody and no matter how hard we try, it seems like we keep losing ground. On the other hand, once the expanded embassies are built, that doesn't mean we can ignore diplomatic relationship actions. My reading of this is that a world with a lvl 9 view of avernus would have a 22% chance of advancing to lvl 10, every five years. It seems like this does two things, it lessens the need to spread out our efforts, so we aren't spending 10 actions for every low level relationship advance in the trust. Two, it makes the higher level of relationships more attainable. Lvl 15 takes the the same effort as lvl 10 used to. Combined, this calls for a change in strategy in how we improve our diplomatic relationships rather than ending our efforts and trusting that the improved embassies automatic rolls will be sufficient. We can now focus our efforts on worlds we want to be strong allies,like asgard is, while knowing that barring diplomatic disaster the worlds we don't focus on will eventually reach lvl10. Raising relationships above 10 will now be easier and something I think we should pursue. Even if it only acts as a buffer, we need that for high council meetings. Where proposals can come come up that we don't like but could change, if we had enough diplomatic points to burn.
Tl;dr we should continue diplomatic efforts focused on one or two strong allies.
As for the improved embassies, this is something I strongly agree with. We spend to many actions trying to stay on good terms with everybody and no matter how hard we try, it seems like we keep losing ground. On the other hand, once the expanded embassies are built, that doesn't mean we can ignore diplomatic relationship actions. My reading of this is that a world with a lvl 9 view of avernus would have a 22% chance of advancing to lvl 10, every five years. It seems like this does two things, it lessens the need to spread out our efforts, so we aren't spending 10 actions for every low level relationship advance in the trust. Two, it makes the higher level of relationships more attainable. Lvl 15 takes the the same effort as lvl 10 used to. Combined, this calls for a change in strategy in how we improve our diplomatic relationships rather than ending our efforts and trusting that the improved embassies automatic rolls will be sufficient. We can now focus our efforts on worlds we want to be strong allies,like asgard is, while knowing that barring diplomatic disaster the worlds we don't focus on will eventually reach lvl10. Raising relationships above 10 will now be easier and something I think we should pursue. Even if it only acts as a buffer, we need that for high council meetings. Where proposals can come come up that we don't like but could change, if we had enough diplomatic points to burn.
Tl;dr we should continue diplomatic efforts focused on one or two strong allies.