The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Citations on what exactly?
Two conflicting claims were made.
Sadly the crit on Raider only seemd to reduce the time needed for all other elite versions of SM armor. Maybe I have read the result wrong...

What? The crit resulted in Astartes Raider armor being massively better than regular one in every way, especially since it allows extended flight, and making Asssult Marines jet infantry instead of jump infantry. Without a crit it almost certainly wouldn't have the extended operational endurance, and quite likely received less improvement in other areas too.
 
On Finding: The second Power Armour STC was for Advanced Power Armour Type III: Raider and is of a type obviously designed for speed. It is lighter and more agile then the Elite Power Armour and has an integrated jump pack far superior to the jump pack that Elite Armour can be equipped with as well as a slightly longer lasting reactor that is capable of going ten days between refuelling. One the downside Raider Armour only has 80% of Elite Power Armours toughness and strength boosters and can not be equipped with the add ons that give Elite Armour its flexibility. In general the Raider Power Armour is very good for rapid assaults and long distance raids but its specialisation makes it not as good as the more general armour in other ways.
Here's regular Raider armor.
Archmagos Tranth finished the designing for Raider Advanced Astartes Power Armour. As well as being stronger and tougher then normal Rider Armour this design can go two months without refuelling and is even faster and more agile due to not having to worry about G-forces as much. This armour design will allow Assault Marines to close with the enemy at lightning speed, dodge even area attacks and maintain flight for extended periods.
Looks like Tranth was able to make it last about six times as long without refueling, upped its armor to Elite Armor standards and removed a bunch of safety features (because Astartes physiology).

So yeah, better than regular Raider armor in every way.
 
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Here's regular Raider armor.

Looks like Tranth was able to make it last about six times as long without refueling, upped its armor to Elite Armor standards and removed a bunch of safety features (because Astartes physiology).
However how much of that is due to the crit and how much would we have had anyway due to the Astartes naturally being better?
Safety features probably were unrelated to the crit. I expect the cost of this armour has gone up to match (more or less) the cost of Astartes armour so the increased protection is probably higher quality materials. And Astartes are huge. Its only natural they'd be able to get a bigger fuel tank on a larger suit of armour.
You haven't proven any of this is from the crit. You've just shown the stats of two related but different sets of armour.
 
Yeah, pretty sure getting a crit on Destroyer armor is very much worth it. Chance to get an armor that is probably better thank a tank would be awesome.
 
However how much of that is due to the crit and how much would we have had anyway due to the Astartes naturally being better?
Safety features probably were unrelated to the crit. I expect the cost of this armour has gone up to match (more or less) the cost of Astartes armour so the increased protection is probably higher quality materials. And Astartes are huge. Its only natural they'd be able to get a bigger fuel tank on a larger suit of armour.
You haven't proven any of this is from the crit. You've just shown the stats of two related but different sets of armour.
@Durin what exactly did the crit on Astartes Raider armor do?

Probably the only way to get your citation at this point TBH.
 
However how much of that is due to the crit and how much would we have had anyway due to the Astartes naturally being better?
Safety features probably were unrelated to the crit. I expect the cost of this armour has gone up to match (more or less) the cost of Astartes armour so the increased protection is probably higher quality materials. And Astartes are huge. Its only natural they'd be able to get a bigger fuel tank on a larger suit of armour.
You haven't proven any of this is from the crit. You've just shown the stats of two related but different sets of armour.
Eh, it is hard to judge.

The problem is that while with Imperial Powered armour we generally know what to expect as the differences between human powered armour (ignatus ect.) and Astartes are well know, with humans being capable of using Astartes style armour (sisters of battle) albeit without the Black Carapace interface.

This we're basically flying blind.

In general we have to consider a few things.

1. Tranth will have integrated the Black Carapace, and presumably done it to the same level as before.
2. This is really high tech by anyone's standards save the Eldar and Crons, potentially level 23/24 as this was the cutting edge.

So what was caused by the crit and what wasn't again its hard to really tell. I don't know if Tranth has enough understanding of the Elite patterns to just enlarge them and throw the carapace in, and at their size their reactors can't have been simple to just expand, so for all we know that might have been the crit given its complexity.

At the end of the day I'm willing to believe they got a stat boost and it furthered Tranth's and the Admech's understanding of the Elite Pattern armour in general.

As for the higher quality materials, I don't think so, these are literally the best in armour we know of, I don't think there are better materials that we are aware of for their size.

Increased cost could be giving it over to the Svartsfar and as you mentioned big astartes.
 
Perhaps we should make a Psyker Order dedicated to Psyker hunting/finding can never have to many bonuses for finding/hunting them.
 
Provided it's possible a Divination order could serve as a jack of all trades, because we need information on potential attacks, enemy worlds and other tid bits like the status of Atlas. It would also probably be a good idea to use some sort of memory suppressant / a drug that prevents the generation of long term memories for diviners. Essentially they divinate, report what they saw but wouldn't be permanently scarred from what they saw.
 
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Possible future orders
Order mechanica: its purpose is to work along with the mechanicus in studying technology. This is done by divining the purpose of technology study and checking the for chaos corruption.
Order of faith: its purpose is to maintain the faith of psykers to the god emperor of mankind
Order of Fire: basically studies and refines the art pyromancy
Order of the shielded spirit: what it says on the tin. Psykers of this order study ways to improve protection from chaos corruption

Also should we study how to make titans this turn or wait a little longer
 
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Long response post:

+5 after Ruthlessly Pragmatic is applied.

No, it's +10, Khol has three morale modifiers, a +10, a +5 and a -5, for a total of +10.

Really hope that we finally take that damn Sirens option since it was mentioned that they could have a lot of knowledge and there may be things we could trade besides humans souls. Because honestly, I am just infuriated at the thought that the option may never win because the two people that everyone bandwagons off of won't ever win because they refuse to put one god damn action towards even finding out. It's one goddamn action and the knowledge we gain could be useful.

This is a misrepresentation of the situation. I actually did try and include a trade with the Sirens seeing if music might be a possible trade goods, but there was a lot of blow back. The opposition to trading with the Sirens is very broad among the player base, it is not just due to some opposition by Enjou and I.

In fact I would very much like to find something to trade with the Sirens, the problem is that we do not have any good leads on anything to trade.

/facepalm
The entire point of the trade option is to find out whether or not animals are worth enough to trade for.

As to 'special', yes. Special like laser breathing T-Rexs, giant semi-immaterial cats and invisible dragons. Things that are big and powerful that the Sirens can't easily get for themselves. Things that Avernus has all over the Emperor forsaken place.

Okay, first of all, we already traded them animal souls for the initial information we got. So it's wrong to say we've never traded them anything.

Additionally, there is no reason to believe that the Sirens can't get phase tigers and T-Rex or whatever. They are powerful psychic telepaths, it's not like they have to physically overpower the animals. Maybe they don't have access to some of the animals that live far away from the water, perhaps creatures in Aridia. More likely is something from off planet, earth monkeys maybe?

Furthermore, the implications of the Siren's preferences are that intelligence and sentience make the souls more delicious. Though this is not proven.

The problem here is that we are blocked on what to trade them, and have no good leads on what we should try. So no one wants to do it.

So please stop acting like the solution is obvious and that I just don't want to do it.

Couple of things I suggest we think about on the Diplomacy front:
Request Information (Sphinxes) – Information on the warp rifts that chaos psykers are being pulled into. What is causing them and, if appropriate, whether the Sphinxes can do anything about it.

Not a bad idea. The Sphinxes are interesting, and since they seem to be sentient, perhaps some kind of formal relationship can be established.

Sound Out (Muspelheim) – Inquire if they would like to be involved in examining Sanctus Furorem when we get round to repairing it. Hint that we may attempt to upgrade the titan if conditions are favourable.
(Possibly include Svartalfheim and Asgard?)

1: We are waiting till Scott loses the Young trait in 25 years.

2: The Mechanicus will get upset if we try to end run them and involve Muspelheim in what is their domain.

Been thinking of that, along with the reason we have been waiting.

We want to upgrade rather than just repair and the big stumbling block is Scott's 'Young' trait, which doubles AdMech unrest and makes innovation not worth the cost. We have been waiting for it to go for some time and fully expect to wait a good while longer.
Thing is, the AdMech is to a great extent a meritocracy. We can wait until Scott ages into the position, or we can try to prove she deserves it.

The most obvious candidate for that is the Titan. The literal Dues Machinas of the tech support cult. Upgrade isn't worth it, a failure causes near-instant civil war. However just repairing it is safe and starting to produce Titans, something only the finest Forge Worlds could do, would be a powerful symbol. Perhaps enough for Scott to earn the respect of the conservatives.

Normally I would regard the plan as too uncertain to be worth doing but with Surt making overtures this is an opportunity to hit two very long term birds at once.

This has been discussed before and rejected. If want to try and persuade people again just make your own plan.

You won't get many votes though, since most people want to do the upgrade.

Finally time for titans?

Five more turns left to go.

Lose the trait, get a trait that mitigates it, have Surt offset it.
I don't care.

You are impatient and so want to throw away the advantages that upgrading would give in exchange for nebulous assurances that it will actually be great because you don't want to wait.

No it isn't. I would far, far rather have basic titans now than start the process of getting upgraded titans in another twenty turns.

Regardless. We lose nothing by asking Surt's opinion on the matter.

Five turns, and true we lose nothing by asking Surt's opinion, but we gain nothing since Surt's opinion does not matter. Not sure why you think it does.

Given his second highest stat is learning, which might be in the 40s that would be epic.

Considering that Muspelheim has probably also been making advances on its own (if its melta guns are any indication anyway) then he's probably got some insights, especially being the man who's probably kept his cities afloat.

True, once we do begin upgrading, asking for Muspelheim's advice (through proper channels) would be a good thing to do.

Maybe doing a whispers of change with Scott about having her maybe meeting with Surt since that sounds like the kind of action that WoC is there for?

This would be the proper channel. Might be worth think about in the next few turns so that we are ready to go in 25 years.

-Request Informtion. Suggestions: Muspelheim's Education system, Niflheim's.. Education system, Asgard's Automation, Niflheim's absurd AM/EM output.

Already done on the education front. Also, Asgard has automation? We already asked about their mining techniques.

Your proposal is to explicitly build a specialized facility for making master crafted Knight Titans. That means building a facility, gathering the right people for the job, and everything else. It'd end up as a multi-year action, and would logically be an AdMech action. I don't buy into it being mainly a diplomacy action.

Well, there might be an initial diplomacy action, but yes I'd expect the major project to be something like a 16 year Mechanicus action.

He already answered that - the answer is yes for the Spend Time With option.

Thanks, updated and removed that question.

We've wanted to do it, we just keep getting distracted.

And the fleet thing went wrong because we warded the Void Shields as we assumed the psykers wouldn't teleport to our ships.

Actually, the problem was that we didn't have enough time to do the fleet wards and everything else we wanted to do. We managed to squeeze in the Void Shields because with an expedite it only took one year.

For Lin, I want him to clean the corruption from the navy and then send him off to the Dragon Blood petty Imperium. He doesn't have much time left, and those were his wishes

Huh? When did we learn that Lin didn't have much time left? As I recall the only thing we learned was that juvenat won't work on him, and so his life will only last as long as it is extended by his saint status, and thus his expected life is only a few hundred more years. Plus there are a lot of attempts to assassinate him. I don't remember his death being imminent.

I think creating an 'Order of History Keepers' would be a good idea... What they do is two things basically. Keep a living memory of old (untainted) rituals, abilities and knowledge of the warp (in other words, serve as living encyclopaedias that help when researching because they can point out similarities to the ___ ritual that was last used five thousand years ago before it was superseded by the ____ ritual that was better, but doesn't have any similarities) and the second thing is being a 'disaster reserve'. Basically, they have at least three people within the order that are trained in the practices of another Order, for every other Order, with which one of the (at least) three being the most up-to-date slowly being rotated.

This means that if something ever happens that wipes out one of the other psychic Orders, we have a small core of people trained in the knowledge and traditions of the Order who otherwise are unconnected to the Order and so would most likely survive whatever wiped out the original (or rebuilt ___ times) Order that can then train the replacements. And if it was a practice in the Order or a bit of knowledge that corrupted it, there's a chance that it won't take out all three as only one will be truly 'up-to-date' with the other (at least) two being slightly, and even more so, outdated in their knowledge.

Naturally that Order would also be one of the most investigated for corruption because they're also one of the ones that would be most dangerous if tainted on a large scale, but sometimes you have to give in one area to gain in another.

Interesting idea. I'd like to think about ita bit more and see if we could develop a way to better mitigate the risks.

@Durin

A few Orders whose viability I'm curious about:
1. Order of Sappers: group trained specifically in destroying fortifications
2. Order of Counterspellers: group trained specifically in disrupting the works of other psykers
2i. Order of Obscurers: group trained to counter Diviners, either by hiding themselves and their actions or by putting out noise that renders future sight difficult
3. Order of Teleporters: specialists in emergency troop movement.

Those are some useful ideas, though we have to think carefully about the priority.

We should start with orders that enable faster growth. So, in order of importance:
1) Order of wardens (psykers education)
2) Order of healers
3) Order of bodyguards
4) Order of research for 1-3

Faster psyker growth? Faster population growth?

Also, not sure that is the right priority. Seems to me that reducing action clogs is higher priority.

So I'd think something like:

Order of lookouts (Diviners focused on detecting attacks) - so that we don't have to spend a Ridcully action each turn looking to make sure we don't get ambushed.

Order of Avernus wildlife research (perhaps two, one focused on materials, and one focused on wildlife psychic abilities), try and get movement on our research backlog.

Order of runewardens (crafting psyker wards, etc), hopefully reducing the amount of time it takes for crafting.

So since we seem to be making the order of researchers however it goes, lets start on divisions.
  • Division in which we try and unravel the mysteries and psychic techniques of Avernus and Avernite lifeforms.
  • Song Weaving.
  • Psychic Frequencies.
  • Warding and Artisanal Techniques.
  • Applying psychic solutions to mundane problems.

For the anti-psyker psyker orders I think we should create two different ones rather than makes one that isn't focused - one for researching, cataloging and creating anti-psykery/sorcery/general-warp-fuckery techniques and methods, like the Granmaster Aria's Null Zone (tentative name - Ordo Anathema/Anathemancers, since anathema can mean condemnation/excomunication for heresy, giving it a exorcist-y wibe, and most importantly it sounds cool) and another combat focused Order, trained in both more esoteric Anathemantic techniques as well as conventional anti-psyker tactics perfected by our Witch and Psyker Hunters in over hundred years constant fighting (I think Ordo Quietus/Silencers would be a good name for them), their duty being fighting chaotic psykers on Avernus as well as countering/assassinating enemy psykers in more conventional warfare. There would be dome overlap between two orders if a person is both great combatant as well as researcher, but I think having them both focus on their own thing would have much beter results than trying one order do both.

Possible future orders
Order mechanica: its purpose is to work along with the mechanicus in studying technology. This is done by divining the purpose of technology study and checking the for chaos corruption.
Order of faith: its purpose is to maintain the faith of psykers to the god emperor of mankind
Order of Fire: basically studies and refines the art pyromancy
Order of the shielded spirit: what it says on the tin. Psykers of this order study ways to improve protection from chaos corruption

Also should we study how to make titans this turn or wait a little longer

Please remember that creating an order costs 6 years, and with all the rest of things we have to do, we'll be lucky to average one founded each turn. (One every two turns is more likely).

Also, @bioticgrunt not sure what you mean about study Titian. If you mean the actual study Titans action that needs to wait until we upgrade/repair the Titan, which needs to wait 25 more years to reduce the unrest effect by 50%

Astra Telepathica
SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Research: Neo-Astropathic Receiver Choirs
-- REPEAT IF FAILED
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 1
-Y4: Research: Destructive Frequencies
SLOT B - Year 3 (Xavier)
-Y3: Advanced Wards: Fólkvangr
SLOT C - Year 1 (Tamia)
-Y1: Research: Neo-Astropathic Receiver Choirs
-- REPEAT IF FAILED
-Y4: Research: Destructive Frequencies

I really think we ought to split the Destructive Freq and Receiver Choirs between two turns so that we can do some divination actions as well.

AdMech
SLOT A - Year 2 (Explorator)
-Y2: Advanced Astartes Power Armour: Destroyer
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
SLOT B - Year 2 (Biologis)
-Y2: Preliminary Examination (Beergrass)
-Y3: Bionics Part One: Investigation
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 3
SLOT C - Year 3 (Free)
-Y3: Expand and Upgrade: Dorthonion

1: Complete examinations are now better than piecemeal investigations.
2: We have several we ought to finish (the Illusionary Pines in particular are interesting, and possibly very useful)
3: We already have large Promethium resources in the Trust, and untapped locations in the Avernus system
4: I'd rather spend Explorator actions on the things only Tranth can do

Ministorum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1-Y5: The Search
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1-Y5: The Search

This seems odd... we spent six actions last year on this, and I thought we determined that it would take about 12 total actions...

Also, I think durin forgot to add the +20% bonus we got from the "How did it happen" action.

I think that is it... with that we have no chance of failure (with Lin's bonus), and a decent chance of a critical.

We have one Beta and one Gamma coming up for the trials, according to the ten years out of date list. However, for one of those turns all the Beta levels were tainted, and only 17 Gammas (which are of several different ages, and might not be coming up for training this turn), last turn we discovered untainted 3 Beta,levels, and 18 Gamma-levels. Again we don't know their age distribution, but it does seem that this is the best time for Lin to not do Those In the Shadows. Though perhaps we should throw one action at it?

Administratum
SLOT A - Year 3
-Y3: Upgrade Defences: Dis

We need to upgrade Dis last because of the metal maintenance costs.
 
Faster psyker growth? Faster population growth?

Also, not sure that is the right priority. Seems to me that reducing action clogs is higher priority.
More psykers and less mentoring actions because wardens and less chance of named characters dying because healers/bodyguards.
Good point about action clogs and divination experts, I was going to include them in asap list but thought that other 3 are more important.
 
This is a misrepresentation of the situation. I actually did try and include a trade with the Sirens seeing if music might be a possible trade goods, but there was a lot of blow back. The opposition to trading with the Sirens is very broad among the player base, it is not just due to some opposition by Enjou and I.

In fact I would very much like to find something to trade with the Sirens, the problem is that we do not have any good leads on anything to trade.
I still think we should make like the British did to the Chinese and get them addicted to something.
Also Holy Spaghetti Post Batman, you remember thats banned now?
 
Rough Draft Plan:
Munitorum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Recruit For Trust Guard
-Y4: Phase-Tiger Riders: Helguard Companies
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Phase-Tiger Riders: Phase-Tigers
SLOT C - Year 3
-Y3: Thundabeast Riders : Planning

Void Command
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Advice: Chapter Master Julius
-Y5: Build Advanced Heavy Orbital Weapons Platforms
--EXPEDITE YEAR 5
SLOT B - Year 3 (Construction Action)
-Y3: Construct: Cruisers and Escorts for Midgard

This is tricky, we probably want to include a Readiness: Fleet action in here, as we expect to see action again in ten years. We don't want to use our Construction slot for it, so the only space is Y5. Unless we do want to use it in the Construction slot so we can off set it to use an Expedite - which maybe we do, we do seem to have a lot of construction actions in year 3. Or we could do it as a Personal Attention... that actually makes the best sense.

Administratum
SLOT A - Year 3
-Y3: Upgrade Defences: Small Hive

Diplomacy
SLOT A - Year 1:
-Y1: Build Embassy and Investigate: Byzantium
-Y3: Sound Out: Asgard and something about advanced materiel sources, expanding/improving knights production (right now this is rather vague, but it does seem like there is a lot to talk about - need to spend some time figuring exactly what this is in a way that ties it all together).
-Y4: Investigate: Sphinxes, establish relations? Ask about Warp rifts sucking in the Chaos psykers?
-Y5: Investigate (Placeholder till thread discussion determines what goes here)

SLOT B - Year 1:
-Y1: Sound Out: Svartalfheim joint colonization
-Y2: Sound Out: Muspelheim joint colonization
-Y3: Sound Out: Midgard providing colonists? (Not sure if we need this, asking durin in my question list)
-Y4: Persons of Interest
-Y5: Sound Out: Colonization Plans (Priority Order: Vanaheim, Asgard, MIdgard, Jotunhiem, Mechanicus, Security Council, Inquisition, Alfheim, Nilfheim)
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5

Arbites:
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Oakheart School of Swordsmanship

(Other option is probably establishing a Spy Network on Byzantum, but not worth delaying the swordsmanship school).

AdMech
SLOT A - Year 2 (Explorator)
-Y2: Examine: Super-Exitus Rifles
-Y3: Examine: Vortex Torpedoes
-Y4: Examine: Kinetic Weapons: Part Two
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 4
SLOT B - Year 2 (Biologis)
-Y2: Detailed Survey (Illusionary Pines)
--REPEAT IF FAILED, ELSE:
-Y4: In-Depth Examination (Illusionary Pines)
SLOT C - Year 3 (Free)
-Y3: Expand and Upgrade: Dorthonion

Jane wants her Super Exitus Rifles, and it's going to probably take multiple attempts, so better get started.

The question of what to do after that is tricky, since there is no double down available in Year 3 (being used in Telepathica). This is the most action efficient option, which investigates the Vortex Torpedoes without a Double Down (possible success, but even if we fail we have sufficient to continue again later), and then double down on the Kinetic Weapons.

Then when the Free Slot is available again in year 1 next turn we use it on the Super-Exitus Rifle again with a Cheating (I'm assuming we won't get the 1 in 40ish chance of succeeding in the first attempt)

Ministorum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1-Y5: The Search
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1-Y4: The Search
-Y5: Those In The Dark

Doing one Those in the Dark, mainly to boost the chances of those lower down, also add 5% chance to the Beta passing.

Astra Telepathica
SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Greater Divination (Necrons, threats, particularly our sector and Dragon Nest sector)
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 1
-Y2: Cheating: Examine: Super-Exitus Rifles
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
-Y3: Research: Neo-Astropathic Receiver Choirs
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 3
SLOT B - Year 3 (Xavier)
-Y3: Advanced Wards: Fólkvangr
--EXPEDITE YEAR 3
SLOT C - Year 1 (Tamia)
-Y1: Mentoring: Beta
-Y2: Research: Sun Beetle
-Y3: Research: Neo-Astropathic Receiver Choirs
--DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 3

Choose Necrons since after thinking about it, those are the most likely culprits in a galaxy wide threat, tried to narrow it to how it would effect us though. Tamia has slots available, used one for the Beta, and the other looking at the just completed Sun Beetle (though Hellflame Coral is another viable option).

Expect next turn for Ridcully to spend 2 years on Destructive Freq, 1 year on Cheating, 1 year on a Divination: Attacks, and 1 year available for either more cheating or Greater Divination.

Could switch out the Folkvangr wards for Order of Divination Warnings if we want to use the Expedite elsewhere (or possibly add a Research task to space it out one more year).

Personal
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Personal Attention: Expand Phase-Tiger Enclosures
--EXPEDITE YEAR 1
-Y5: Readiness Training: Fleet
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1: Promotion (Marshal)
-Y2: Spend Time With (Chapter Master Julius)
-Y3: Spend Time With (Chapter Master Julius)
-Y4: A New Admiral
-Y5:Whispers of Change (Discussion with Champion Surt might prove fruitful)
SLOT C - Year 4
-Y4: Thaddeus Expertise: Upgrade Defences: <four cities>
--EXPEDITE YEAR 4

If we don't want to do Whispers of change, Chain of Command is an alternative.

We still have an Expedite available in year 2. Only possible place to use it is in the Military actions, maybe if one of them them can be expedited...

Or maybe if there was a two year action we could expedite in Year 1 as a Personal attention... but I don't see any.
 
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Spaghetti posts. It's now against the rules to break a single quote into small parts to comment on it in depth. A bit of a busybody rule, but it is what it is.
The reasons give are something like, it makes the thread an unreadable mess for other people and that it tends to cause arguments to devolve into pedantry over individual segments and even sentences without context.
 
In general, I'm opposed to using Ridcully's actions on Divination (and Variants).
Huh? When did we learn that Lin didn't have much time left? As I recall the only thing we learned was that juvenat won't work on him, and so his life will only last as long as it is extended by his saint status, and thus his expected life is only a few hundred more years. Plus there are a lot of attempts to assassinate him. I don't remember his death being imminent.
IIRC Juvenat works, just not as effectively?
 
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