The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Portec]

Yea, I did see that. My thinking is this: (Ok for the sake of making the arguement clearer, I'm using the term Escort to mean ships designed around Escorting a Capital Ship, not the class. Escort Class ships will be called Frigates or Destroyers.)

1: Escort ships have two jobs, depending on their speed. Slow Escorts stick next to their charge, providing PD fire and extra guns to help deal with smaller ships so the Capital Ship can focus on bigger targets. Fast Escorts partnered with slower BBs or CVs are there to fly out and engage Faster elements of the enemy fleet that try to harass their Capital ship. They engage, chase off/destroy the attackers ideally with long ranged support, then return to formation.

2: The use of bigger Fast ships (FBBs or BCs) is as part of that harassing/raiding force. They either have long enough range to attack bigger ships with less fear of retaliation, or they bring a large imbalance of firepower that outmatches the other sides light cruiser and destroyer escorts when they come to engage.

3: Your choice of Fast ships might fill the quota, but I don't think it does it in the right way. None of those BCs or Torpedo Frigates will fly out to contest enemy harassers. They'd be used as the harassing/raiding force instead, but their heavy heavy focus on pure long ranged firepower means any enemy force fast enough to close in and specced for shorter range combat will mulch them. Also means our main fleet is less able to contest enemy harassment or raids if our fastest, long range ships are off sniping.

4: It also means there's much less point to the Hero BB in that group, as either it's never with them when they are sniping, or it does go with them leaving the group much more vulnerable to getting caught. And if/when they do get caught, either the Fast Escorts have to leave the Hero behind to maintain distance, or they stay to Escort their Capital Ship in a fight they aren't made for.

5: If you really, really want this group, use a Mongol instead of the Hero. It's the same idea of ship, just with less guns and less armor in exchange for Speed. But if you did that, it becomes something I'd expect to see from Admrial Freyr's Fast Attack/Harassment fleet, and no longer meshes with our doctrine at all.

6: If we want fast ships to defend ourselves from enemy harassment, these aren't the right tools for the job. If we want a fast group of bigger ships to raid/snipe the enemy, we aren't the right fleet for that kind of formation.

7: About Destroyer/Frigate speeds, maybe the Raider is the only Fast Escort size ship relative to the others, but Escorts are already fast moving, and the Soldier & Legionnaire class are already 30% faster than comparable Imperium Escorts. I'm pretty sure the difference is more Fast vs Very Fast instead of Medium vs Fast. In fact, even the Page and Squire Classes probably move at medium speed relative to Cruisers and Captial Ships.

@durin is any of this right or am I completely crazy?

Click to shrink...

This fleets only defence against fast ships is their range. To contest with fast fleets they either need the armor to soak up the damage and range to retaliate or must be fast.

The NEW BATTLECRUISER are there to snipe. The torpedo escorts to provide some capacity for harassment. You are right that neither of them is cable of countering harassment but for that this fleet needs to use the range of its guns.

Of this fleet only the Legionnaire escorts (anti-escorts), Teutonic HC and the CBS have weapon loadouts focussed on short range. The rest are lances with good range or outright long range.

Now what I have been up to. Doing some statisics on your and Elder Hamans fleet proposals.

Spoiler: Elder Haman's Revised Avernite Fleet Plan

1x Einherjar Class Command Battleship
1x Hero Class Battleship
1x Champion Class Battleship

2x Pope Class Grand Carrier (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
1x Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
1x Scots Class Grand Cruiser (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)

2x Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
2x Templar Class Heavy Carrier (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
2x Marauder Class Battlecruiser (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
2x New Battlecruiser Class with Spinal Grav Accelerators
2x New Battlecruiser Class with Nova Cannons
2x Disciple Class Carrier (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
1x Night Class Battlecruiser (Stealth)

8x Knight Class Cruiser (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
4x Cataphract Cruiser
4x Kshatriya Cruiser
4x Samurai Cruiser
8x Bishop Class Carrier (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
4x Bolas Cruiser
6x Corsair Class Cruiser
2x Poacher Class Cruiser
2x Cossack Class Cruiser
2x Acolyte Class Carrier (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)

10x Youxia Class Escort Cruiser
10x Monk Class Escort Carrier
10x Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser
10x Adherent Class Light Carrier
8x Fog Class Light Cruiser (Stealth)

70x Squire Class Frigate
40x Page Class Frigate
120x Soldier Class Destroyer
70x Legionnaire Class Destroyer
20x New Class Haywire Escorts
50x Descent Class Destroyer (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
30x Shadow Class Destroyer (Stealth)

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Statistics

Spoiler: Capital Ships

Because of the different size of Capital Ships I have weighted them to represent the larger impact of larger ships.

1x Einherjar Class Command Battleship (12 armor)
1x Hero Class Battleship (8 ??)
1x Champion Class Battleship (8 ??)

2x Pope Class Grand Carrier (8 armor)
1x Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser (4 armor)
1x Scots Class Grand Cruiser (4 armor)

2x Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser (4 armor)
2x Templar Class Heavy Carrier (4 armor)
2x Marauder Class Battlecruiser (4 fast)
2x New Battlecruiser Class with Spinal Grav Accelerators (4 fast)
2x New Battlecruiser Class with Nova Cannons (4 fast)
2x Disciple Class Carrier (4 fast)
1x Night Class Battlecruiser (2 fast)

8x Knight Class Cruiser (8 armor)
4x Cataphract Cruiser (4 armor)
4x Kshatriya Cruiser (4 armor)
4x Samurai Cruiser (4 armor)
8x Bishop Class Carrier (8 cheap)
4x Bolas Cruiser (4 cheap)
6x Corsair Class Cruiser (6 fast)
2x Poacher Class Cruiser (2 fast)
2x Cossack Class Cruiser (2 fast)
2x Acolyte Class Cruiser (2 fast)

10x Youxia Class Escort Cruiser (5 cheap)
10x Monk Class Escort Carrier (5 cheap)
10x Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser (5 fast)
10x Adherent Class Light Carrier (5 fast)
8x Fog Class Light Cruiser (4 ??)

Total: 138
Armored: 56 = 41%
Cheap: 22 = 16%
Fast: 40 = 29%
??: 20 = 14%

A quite large part of fast ships. Very little cheap ships. I don't know but the ratio is of...

for example 50% armoured, 30% cheap and 20% fast or 50% fast, 30% cheap and 20% armoured
even 60% armoured, 35% cheap and 5% fast or 60% fast, 35% cheap and 5% armoured are viable

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Escorts

70x Squire Class Frigate (70 armor)
40x Page Class Frigate (40 armor)
120x Soldier Class Destroyer (120 cheap)
70x Legionnaire Class Destroyer (70 cheap)
20x New Class Haywire Escorts (20 ??)
50x Descent Class Destroyer (50 cheap)
30x Shadow Class Destroyer (30 ??)

Total: 400
Armored: 110 = 38%
Cheap: 240 = 60%
Fast: 0 = 0%
??: 50 = 12%

You have really few escorts. You have ~94 cruiser and durin said that the quote should at least be 4 and at most 12. Yours is only 4.2.

You know what? I run the numbers and they tell me that there are problems with your fleet but QM said that it is all right.
So what do I do wrong? Numbers can not lie! You can only reaad them wrong...

Spoiler: Runes Plan take.... What number are we on again?

1x Einherjar Class Command Battleship

1 Champion Class Battleship
1 Hero Class Battleship
1 Legate Class Battleship

2 Pope Class Grand Carrier

2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser
1 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser
1 Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser
2 Templar Class Heavy Carrier

2 Marauder Class Battlecruiser
1 Disciple Class Carrier
1 Uhlan Class Battlecruiser
1 Husser Class Battlecruiser

15 Knight Class Cruiser
10 Cataphract Cruiser
10 Kshatriya Cruiser
5 Samurai Cruiser

2 Corsair Class Cruiser
2 Poacher Class Cruiser
2 Cossack Class Cruiser
1 Acolyte Class Carrier

10 Warrior Class Cruiser
5 Hoplite Class Cruiser
10 Bishop Class Carrier
5 Praetorian Class Cruiser
7 Bolas Class Cruiser

30 Youxia Class Escort Cruiser
10 Monk Class Escort Carrier
15 Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser
5 Adherent Class Light Carrier

150 Squire Class Frigate
350 Soldier Class Destroyer
50 Page Class Frigate
75 Privateer Class Raider
50 Legionnaire Class Destroyer
10 Descent Class Destroyer

Stealth insertion unit
1 Night Class Battlecruiser
5 Fog Class Light Cruiser
10 Shadow Class Destroyer

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Statistics

Spoiler: Capital Ships

Because of the different size of Capital Ships I have weighted them to represent the larger impact of larger ships.
1x Einherjar Class Command Battleship (12 armor)

1 Champion Class Battleship (8 ??)
1 Hero Class Battleship (8 ??)
1 Legate Class Battleship (8 ??)

2 Pope Class Grand Carrier (8 armor)

2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser (4 armor)
1 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser (2 armor)
1 Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser (2 armor)
2 Templar Class Heavy Carrier (4 armor)

2 Marauder Class Battlecruiser (4 fast)
1 Disciple Class Carrier (2 fast)
1 Uhlan Class Battlecruiser (2 fast)
1 Husser Class Battlecruiser (2 fast)
1 Night Class Battlecruiser (2 fast)

15 Knight Class Cruiser (15 armor)
10 Cataphract Cruiser (10 armor)
10 Kshatriya Cruiser (10 armor)
5 Samurai Cruiser (5 armor)

2 Corsair Class Cruiser (2 fast)
2 Poacher Class Cruiser (2 fast)
2 Cossack Class Cruiser (2 fast)
1 Acolyte Class Carrier (1 fast)

10 Warrior Class Cruiser (10 cheap)
5 Hoplite Class Cruiser (5 cheap)
10 Bishop Class Carrier (10 cheap)
5 Praetorian Class Cruiser (5 cheap)
7 Bolas Class Cruiser (7 cheap)

30 Youxia Class Escort Cruiser (15 cheap)
10 Monk Class Escort Carrier (5 cheap)
15 Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser (7.5 fast)
5 Adherent Class Light Carrier (2.5 fast)
5 Fog Class Light Cruiser (2.5 ??)

Total: 184.5
Armored: 72 = 39%
Cheap: 57 = 31%
Fast: 29 = 16%
??: 26.5 = 14%

for example 50% armoured, 30% cheap and 20% fast or 50% fast, 30% cheap and 20% armoured
even 60% armoured, 35% cheap and 5% fast or 60% fast, 35% cheap and 5% armoured are viable

Click to shrink...

If the Battleships grouped under ?? count as armor than it is solid.
At least the numbers say so.

Spoiler: Escorts

150 Squire Class Frigate (150 armor)
350 Soldier Class Destroyer (350 cheap)
50 Page Class Frigate (50 armor)
75 Privateer Class Raider (75 fast)
50 Legionnaire Class Destroyer (50 cheap)
10 Descent Class Destroyer (10 cheap)
10 Shadow Class Destroyer (10 ??)

Total: 695
Armored: 200 = 29%
Cheap: 410 = 59%
Fast: 75 = 11%
??: 10 = 1%

You have a weighted number of cruisers of 140.5 . The quota of escorts per cruiser is 4.9 and kind of low for the large number of cruiser you have.

It may be discussable in wich category each ship falls but all GC and HC are heavily armored. All BC are fast. The cruiser classes are seperated in 3 chunks for armored, fast and cheap.
Battleships are hard to place because Berserker and Saint are described as armored and Martyr, Mongol, Hun and Darkness as fast. That could mean that Legate, CHampion and Hero are cheap but BS can not be cheap.
Light Cruiser have only Buccaneer described as fast. All other lack description wether they are cheap or armored. I run with cheap.
Escort have Squire and Page described as armored. Privateer is the only fast wich leave the rest as cheap.
Specialized ones like Descent (atmospheric flight) and all stealth ones fall complete outside the categories.

Make of the numbers what you want. I have tried and figured out that they make no sense...

 

[Elder Haman]

We warp in, form a battle line, and commence the sniping/bombardment of their heavy defenses & big ships. Either we kill them all, and then charge the planet with our fleet, or they get mad at us sitting out of range trashing their stuff and come to us, at which point the rest of the fleet kills them.

There's never an issue screening the snipers if the snipers are never on their own.

Click to shrink...

What if they get be our screen?

We should plan for things going wrong, not just for everything working well.

Aren't Light Cruisers and escort Raiders better for the raiding role? Secondly, I'm completely fine leaving the job of raiding to the Trust Fleet or Vanaheim. We have one job, I'd rather us do that as best we can.

Click to shrink...

Umm... yes? That's why their escorts are Light Cruisers and Raiders?

Also, that is not our focus, be it doesn't mean it's not nice to have a benefit on the side.

I disagree with the idea that them being fast comes at little or no cost. Speed, Armor and Weapons are the three chief categories of every ship. By using Fast ships, compromise is necessary. In this case, FBBs or BCs almost universally have less armor and guns than a similarly sized BB or HC. I don't see the value in speed on these ships when I see them more as Artillery than snipers. They need to be fast enough to keep up with the fleet, but if they have more armor and weapons they can stand up just fine in the battle line, and do more damage while they are at it.

Click to shrink...

So... you're suggesting that they not be screened at all, and that they just mix it up with everything else. Yet if we want them picking their targets, shouldn't they not be part of the line?

That's why I called them snipers, not artillery. For artillery you'd probably just get the big torpedo heavy cruisers, or long range lance heavy cruisers.

I mean... basically a BC with a Spinal Grav Accellerator, can engage at maximum range, snipe an enemy capital ship. Retreat again, and then snipe another capital ship, and so forth. If you make them slow then they will get caught and forced into a short range battle where they wont have the weapons to fight.

You know what? I run the numbers and they tell me that there are problems with your fleet but QM said that it is all right.
So what do I do wrong? Numbers can not lie! You can only reaad them wrong...

Click to shrink...

Well... you made up a bunch of those numbers to weight various classes. You then are applying those classes without considering what they mean or how they fit together.

And finally, my fleet does match durin's pattern of 50% type A, 33 % type B, and 17% type C.

You have really few escorts. You have ~94 cruiser and durin said that the quote should at least be 4 and at most 12. Yours is only 4.2.

Click to shrink...

Uhh... no. You just grabbed the list of escorts for the Brute Squad, and ignored the escorts for the Sniper team. That's 200 additional escorts:

70x Squire Class Frigate
40x Page Class Frigate
220x Soldier Class Destroyer
70x Legionnaire Class Destroyer
20x New Class Haywire Escorts
100x Privateer Class Raider
50x Descent Class Destroyer (Planetary Assault Auxiliary)
30x Shadow Class Destroyer (Stealth)

 

[Durin]

Yea, I did see that. My thinking is this: (Ok for the sake of making the arguement clearer, I'm using the term Escort to mean ships designed around Escorting a Capital Ship, not the class. Escort Class ships will be called Frigates/Destroyers or specifically noted as Escort Class.)

1: Escort ships have two jobs, depending on their speed. Slow Escorts stick next to their charge, providing PD fire and extra guns to help deal with smaller ships so the Capital Ship can focus on bigger targets. Fast Escorts partnered with slower BBs or CVs are there to fly out and engage Faster elements of the enemy fleet that try to harass their Capital ship. They engage, chase off/destroy the attackers ideally with long ranged support, then return to formation.

2: The use of bigger Fast ships (FBBs or BCs) differs as well. Long ranged FBBs/BCs are part of that harassing/raiding force. They need to have long enough range and enough speed to attack bigger ships and escape retaliation as they aren't strong enough to survive it. Shorter ranged ones are part of the Fast Escort, bringing a large imbalance of firepower that outmatches the other sides raiding force, especially if the enemy is focused on long ranged attacks. These could also be in charge of more isolated forces behind enemy lines, bringing enough firepower to destroy enemy Escorts protecting cargo ships or transports.

3: Your choice of Fast ships might fill the quota, but I don't think it does it in the right way. None of those BCs or Torpedo Frigates will fly out to contest enemy harassers. They'd be used as the harassing/raiding force instead, but their heavy heavy focus on pure long ranged firepower means any enemy force fast enough to close in and specced for shorter range combat will mulch them. Also means our main fleet is less able to contest enemy harassment or raids if our faster ships are off sniping.

4: It also means there's much less point to the Hero BB in that group, as either it's never with them when they are sniping, or it does go with them leaving the group much more vulnerable to getting caught. And if/when they do get caught, either the Fast Escorts have to leave the Hero behind to maintain distance, or they stay to escort their Capital Ship in a fight they aren't made for.

5: If you really, really want this group, use a Mongol instead of the Hero. It's the same idea of ship, just with less guns and less armor in exchange for Speed. But if you did that, it becomes something I'd expect to see from Admrial Freyr's Fast Attack/Harassment fleet, and no longer meshes with our doctrine at all.

6: If we want fast ships to defend ourselves from enemy harassment, these aren't the right tools for the job. If we want a fast group of bigger ships to raid/snipe the enemy, we aren't the right fleet for that kind of fast formation.

7: About Destroyer/Frigate speeds, maybe the Raider is the only Fast Escort size ship relative to the others, but Escorts are already fast moving, and the Soldier & Legionnaire class are already 30% faster than comparable Imperium Escorts. I'm pretty sure the difference is more Fast vs Very Fast instead of Medium vs Fast. In fact, even the Page and Squire Classes probably move at medium speed relative to Cruisers and Captial Ships.

@durin is any of this right or am I completely crazy?

Click to shrink...

pretty right, by the way I have added speed and type to all of the ships but some CBB

 

[Durin]

Now to work over it with durin extended review in mind:

In short I dropped a lot of cheap and generalist ships for extra armored and carriers as well as a small sniper section of still to be developed BC with Superlances or Spinal-GravAccelrators.

Spoiler: Fleet Composition

The focus is a fleet for Planetary Assault.
It should be between "50% armoured, 30% cheap and 20% fast" and "60% armoured, 35% cheap and 5% fast"

Because I find it easier to work with units and not just numbers here the fleet broken up into units.

Spoiler: Fleet in Groupview

I. Centered around Einherjar Class Command Battleship (medium speed, very heavy armor, short range).

I am against relying on on the companies of the other BS to defend the Einherjar. For that reason I decided to place a 50% (16*1,5=24) greater number of cruiser at its direct support and defence than the BS have.
1. 2 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser (slow speed, heavily armored)

they get (2*2*8) 32 Escort among them
a. 16 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor, lances)
b. 16 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

2. 2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser (slow speed, heavily armored, short range)

they get (2*2*8) 32 Escort among them
a. 16 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 16 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

3. 12 Knight Class Cruiser (normal speed, heavy armor)

they get (12*8) 96 Escort among them
a. 48 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 48 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

3. 2 Cataphract Cruiser (normal speed, heavy armor, lances)

they get (2*8) 16 Escort among them
a. 8 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 8 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

4. 4 Monk Class Escort Carrier (light cruiser, medium speed, attack craft instead of weapons, heavy point defence)

they get (4*0.5*8) 16 Escort among them
a. 8 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 8 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

II. Hero Class Battleship (medium speed, powerful lances and Superlances)

In this group are fast sniper for support. They are all BC as the fleet would not have them otherwise. The 64 torpedo escorts that have in theory an even greater range should go well for sniping. If the development of such a BC fails than it would need complete replacement. Because the Hero has Superlances already I put them in this group.
1. 6 New Battlecruiser (fast speed, Spinal Grav-Accelerator and/or Superlances) for sniping

they get (6*2*8) 96 Escort among them
a. 64 Privateer Class Raider (fast speed, torpedos)
b. 32 Descent Class Destroyer (medium speed, atmospheric flight)​

2. 4 Warrior Class Cruiser (cheap, medium speed, generalist)

they get (4*8) 32 Escort among them
a. 10 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 10 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)
c. 12 Legionnaire Class Destroyers (medium speed, anti-escort)​

III. Saint Class Carrier Battleship (slow speed, heavy armor, long ranged lances)

This group is focussed on the landing part of planetary assault.
1. 4 Templar Class Heavy Carrier (slow speed, heavy armor)

they get (4*2*8) 64 Escort among them
a. 16 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 16 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)
c. 32 Descent Class Destroyer (medium speed, atmospheric flight)​

3. 16 Monk Class Escort Carrier (light cruiser, medium speed, attack craft instead of weapons, heavy point defence)

they get (16*0.5*8) 64 Escort among them
a. 24 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 24 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)
c. 16 Legionnaire Class Destroyers (medium speed, anti-escort)​

IV. 2 Scots Class Grand Cruiser (slow speed, heavily armored, lances)

Two GC add up to roughly one BS. This group is lances heavy and all Cruiser have normal to long range if I read them right.
1. 10 Warrior Class Cruiser (cheap, medium speed, generalist)

they get (10*8) 80 Escort among them
a. 40 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 40 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

2. 6 Cataphract Cruiser (normal speed, heavy armor, lances)

they get (6*8) 48 Escort among them
a. 24 Page Class Frigate (slow speed, anti-cruiser)
b. 24 Squire Class Frigate (slow speed, heavy armor)​

V. 2 Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser (slow speed, heavily armored)

Two GC add up to roughly one BS. In this group are cheap ships to build numbers.
1. 16 Warrior Class Cruiser (cheap, medium speed, generalist)

they get (16*8) 128 Escort among them
a. 78 Soldier Class Destroyer (medium speed, generalist)
b. 50 Legionnaire Class Destroyer (medium speed, anti-escort)​

Here the fleet in numbers per class and some statistics:

Spoiler: Fleet in Classview

1 Einherjar Class Command Battleship

1 Hero Class Battleship
1 Saint Class Carrier Battleship

2 Scots Class Grand Cruiser
2 Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser

4 Templar Class Heavy Carrier
2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser
2 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser

6 New Battlecruiser

12 Knight Class Cruiser
8 Cataphract Cruiser
30 Warrior Class Cruiser

20 Monk Class Escort Carrier (light cruiser)

78 Soldier Class Destroyer
210 Squire Class Frigate
210 Page Class Frigate
78 Legionnaire Class Destroyer
64 Descent Class Destroyer
64 Privateer Class Raider

Spoiler: Capital per category

Because I could not decide were to put light cruiser I put them into the cheap-category.
In brakes is the category in wich I put them. The number stands for the amount of weighting based on ship class above cruiser times the number of ships. In general times 0.5 for LC, times 2 for BC and HC, times 4 for GC, times 8 for BS and times 12 for CBS. Escorts are counted seperatly.


1 Einherjar Class Command Battleship (12 armor)

1 Hero Class Battleship (don't know, 8 ??)
1 Saint Class Carrier Battleship (8 armor)

2 Scots Class Grand Cruiser (8 armor)
2 Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser (8 armor)

4 Templar Class Heavy Carrier (8 armor)
2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser (4 armor)
2 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser (4 armor)

6 New Battlecruiser (12 fast)

12 Knight Class Cruiser (12 armor)
8 Cataphract Cruiser (8 armor)
30 Warrior Class Cruiser (30 cheap)

20 Monk Class Escort Carrier (10 cheap)

together: 132
72 armor = 55%
12 fast = 9%
40 cheap = 30%
8 ?? = 6%

Spoiler: Escorts

Frigates are the armored, Destroyer are smaller (cheap) and Raiders are fast.

78 Soldier Class Destroyer (78 cheap)
210 Squire Class Frigate (210 armor)
210 Page Class Frigate (210 armor)
78 Legionnaire Class Destroyer (78 cheap)
64 Descent Class Destroyer (64 cheap)
64 Privateer Class Raider (64 fast)

together: 704
420 armor = 60%
64 fast = 9%
220 cheap = 31%

This is only a guess. The numbers can easily change by 10% up or down.

Spoiler: estimated upkeep cost

Because upkeep is the hard part here are the expected cost for that:
404.451,200 Thrones
57,304,000 Material
55,231,840 Prometium
166.742 AM
1726.9 EM

@durin
1. I am not sold on the Saint Class Carrier Battleship as there are four Templar Class Heavy Carrier. Would it be better to repace it with a Champion Battleship because there are to many heavy carriers?
2. In wich category (armor, cheap, fast) fits the Hero Class Battleship?
3. How significantly has the capabilities assessment changed?
4. Would you give your take on the expected upkeep?
5. This plan stand or falls on my guess for weighting the cruiser. (In general times 0.5 for LC, times 2 for BC and HC, times 4 for GC, times 8 for BS and times 12 for CBS. Escorts are counted seperatly.) Is that correct? If not what should be changed to what to get a better ratio for capital ships?

Click to shrink...

1. No, given the fact that otherwise you rely on escort carriers
2. Medium, which is medium speed but not cheap
3. better but you should replace some of the escort carrier with escort cruisers and add some carriers
4. 1,700
5. Yes you are right

 

[Skewfiend]

4. Would you give your take on the expected upkeep?

Click to shrink...

4. Yes you are right

Click to shrink...

Portec: "Would you tell me this?"
Durin: "Yes, I would."

*silence*

Portec: "Could you, then?"
Durin: "Yes I could."

*More stony silence*

Portec: "I am requesting that you tell me about this thing."
Durin: "Very well, here's what I know..."

 

[aledeth]

What if they get be our screen?

We should plan for things going wrong, not just for everything working well.

Umm... yes? That's why their escorts are Light Cruisers and Raiders?

Also, that is not our focus, be it doesn't mean it's not nice to have a benefit on the side.

So... you're suggesting that they not be screened at all, and that they just mix it up with everything else. Yet if we want them picking their targets, shouldn't they not be part of the line?

That's why I called them snipers, not artillery. For artillery you'd probably just get the big torpedo heavy cruisers, or long range lance heavy cruisers.

I mean... basically a BC with a Spinal Grav Accellerator, can engage at maximum range, snipe an enemy capital ship. Retreat again, and then snipe another capital ship, and so forth. If you make them slow then they will get caught and forced into a short range battle where they wont have the weapons to fight.

Click to shrink...

I'm assuming you meant "What if they get behind our screen". My answer there is, they either have to go the very long way around to stay out of weapons range the entire time till they get behind us which gives us plenty of time to blast the rest of their fleet, or they have to charge through the rest of our fleet which gets them mauled.

They can pick their targets just fine when the enemy is at range or closing, then just shoot the biggest thing they can see. I don't consider that a poor use of the ship.

I feel like at this point it's just a difference in opinion over what is best suited for the fleet. I do consider Artillery styled ships to be a much better fit for our goal of Planetary Siege & Assault, and the fast Sniper style to be something much better suited for a fleet that can specialize in that direction.

Really, when I think about it my ideal fleet feels like an Avernite Military Siege in space. Massive loads of artillery ships to bombard the enemy if they stay hiding(siege brigades), and heavily armed and armored line ships to crush the enemy if they sally out or to rush the breach once the defenses are cleared (Helltroopers and Helguard).

Unless we're commanding the fleet battle personally, I could also see some issues with the training or NPC use of the fleet, as they just don't match the goal of everything else we have.

 

[runes]

@durin a few quistions

1. How well do I do on bombardment and landings with the new build?
2. How does my new build stack up against defences, defence monitors, and defence fleets now?
3. What's the best/worst Fleet to be up against now?
4. Have I fixed up the flaws well enough for Admiral Parnell and our Navy staffers or is there more problems with it?

Here's the new build

Spoiler: Runes Plan take.... What number are we on again?

1x Einherjar Class Command Battleship

1 Champion Class Battleship
1 Hero Class Battleship
1 Legate Class Battleship

2 Pope Class Grand Carrier

2 Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser
1 Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser
1 Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser
2 Templar Class Heavy Carrier

2 Marauder Class Battlecruiser
1 Disciple Class Carrier
1 Uhlan Class Battlecruiser
1 Husser Class Battlecruiser

15 Knight Class Cruiser
10 Cataphract Cruiser
10 Kshatriya Cruiser
5 Samurai Cruiser

2 Corsair Class Cruiser
2 Poacher Class Cruiser
2 Cossack Class Cruiser
1 Acolyte Class Carrier

10 Warrior Class Cruiser
5 Hoplite Class Cruiser
10 Bishop Class Carrier
5 Praetorian Class Cruiser
7 Bolas Class Cruiser

30 Youxia Class Escort Cruiser
10 Monk Class Escort Carrier
15 Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser
5 Adherent Class Light Carrier

150 Squire Class Frigate
350 Soldier Class Destroyer
50 Page Class Frigate
75 Privateer Class Raider
50 Legionnaire Class Destroyer
10 Descent Class Destroyer

Stealth insertion unit
1 Night Class Battlecruiser
5 Fog Class Light Cruiser
10 Shadow Class Destroyer

Click to shrink...

 

[Darkcrest]

aledethi believe elder haman meant by/around or in other words flanking the screening line

 

[runes]

Really, when I think about it my ideal fleet feels like an Avernite Military Siege in space. Massive loads of artillery ships to bombard the enemy if they stay hiding(siege brigades), and heavily armed and armored line ships to crush the enemy if they sally out or to rush the breach once the defenses are cleared (Helltroopers and Helguard).

Click to shrink...

I must say this is what I have been trying to get my fleet as. Lots of ranged unit to hammer defences particularly with Battleships mid to long ranged then a mass of Heavy/Armoured Cruisers to get it and pummel stationary defences or tank a defence fleet trying to kill our range stuff.

 

[aledeth]

@durin a few quistions

1. How well do I do on bombardment and landings with the new build?
2. How does my new build stack up against defences, defence monitors, and defence fleets now?
3. What's the best/worst Fleet to be up against now?
4. Have I fixed up the flaws well enough for Admiral Parnell and our Navy staffers or is there more problems with it?

Here's the new build

Click to shrink...

Ok, my input (however valuable it may or may not be):
Buccaneerss and Adherents are for faster fleets IMO. Recommend dropping those for more Monks & Youxias, or Corsairs, Poachers, and Acolytes if they are meant to tackle enemy harassers.

Could probably use some more Descent Class Destroyers, they're a powerful unit for planetside fighting.

What is your goal with the Fast cruiser and Battlecruiser formation? If it's to defend against enemy Fast ships, I suggest swapping some/most of the BCs for Paladin HCs for more long ranged Lance fire, and converting some of the BCs into more Corsairs or Poachers than can tackle the enemy faster than BCs. They should do fine with the extra weight of fire from more long ranged ships.

You might be a bit underweight on Carriers, could consider dropping the Legate or Champion for a Saint, that might let you swap the Templars into higher damage variants while still gaining Carrier Capacity.

Basically, any enemy faster than speed 6 I think we shouldn't bother trying to catch. Just deal with them via long ranged lances & other weapons. So that gives me a ceiling of 6, where anything faster than that probably belongs in a different fleet.

 

[Elder Haman]

You might be a bit underweight on Carriers, could consider dropping the Legate or Champion for a Saint, that might let you swap the Templars into higher damage variants while still gaining Carrier Capacity.

Click to shrink...

The Legate, keep the Champion.

 

[Durin]

votecount please

 

[HanEmpire]

Vote Tally : Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) | Page 1524 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.5.7

[X] Meet with King Zaren of Alfheim: Suggest the idea of a training facility on Alfheim dedicated to training Imperial Trust Guardsmen in Ork fighting. Serving both the purpose of training in fighting one of the two greatest xenos threats, and also helping Alfheim control the Ork threat. What is his feedback on the idea? If favorable, how would he propose presenting it to the rest of the Imperial Trust?
No. of Votes: 7

Spoiler: Voters

Elder Haman
DragonParadox
Enjou
Fanhunter696
Riggnarock
runes
SirHades2.0

[X] Meet with Governor Garp of Jotunheim and King Zaren of Alfheim: Discuss idea of trading tips and training for the respective Internal Security forces of the three worlds. Suggest the sale of Bombardment Cacti aphrodisiac to Alfheim and Jotunheim in order to boost the other worlds' population growth rates.
No. of Votes: 2

Spoiler: Voters

HanEmpire
Praetor98

[X] Plan Alfheim Ork Control
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

Plan: ◈Alfheim Ork Control
Reynal

[X] No meeting
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

Derek58

Total No. of Voters: 11

 

[Durin]

The Fifth Meeting of the High Council Part Three: A Meeting

Once the High Council Meeting ended for the day you wasted no time in arranging a meeting with King Zaren of Alfheim. The main purpose of the meeting is to discuss setting up a joint training facility on Alfheim dedicate to training Imperial Trust Guardsmen in Ork fighting.

King Zaren immediately skipped over the usual small talk and got down to business, as is his habit. He told you that at the moment the Orks are being dealt with by the local forces and a entire army of Midgardian Iron Guard but he is not averse to replacing most of the Iron Guard with soldiers from other planets.

His suggestion for presenting this to the rest of the Imperial Trust is for hm to talk it over with the Security Council and Governor-General Aelfric and then the two of them work on getting the other members of the Imperial Trust on board. He believes that it would work best coming from then as they are considered military experts and able to judge what works for non-Avernites unlike you.

The meeting continues for another hour or so as you discuss your respective experience's with Feral Orks and how to best organise the facility. By the time that the discussion was over you are confident that King Zaren will be able to set it up without needing any further aid from you.

 

[Valkur]

Yaaay it worked!

but uh, do we wait for him to tell us 'ok'? Or do we just do this as a diplomatic action in the following turns?

 

[Durin]

you wait for him to organise this, while it is your idea it is a bit out of place for you to be the one organizing it

 

[HanEmpire]

able to judge what works for non-Avernites unlike you.

Click to shrink...

Heh

 

[runes]

Ok, my input (however valuable it may or may not be):
Buccaneerss and Adherents are for faster fleets IMO. Recommend dropping those for more Monks & Youxias, or Corsairs, Poachers, and Acolytes if they are meant to tackle enemy harassers.

Could probably use some more Descent Class Destroyers, they're a powerful unit for planetside fighting.

What is your goal with the Fast cruiser and Battlecruiser formation? If it's to defend against enemy Fast ships, I suggest swapping some/most of the BCs for Paladin HCs for more long ranged Lance fire, and converting some of the BCs into more Corsairs or Poachers than can tackle the enemy faster than BCs. They should do fine with the extra weight of fire from more long ranged ships.

You might be a bit underweight on Carriers, could consider dropping the Legate or Champion for a Saint, that might let you swap the Templars into higher damage variants while still gaining Carrier Capacity.

Basically, any enemy faster than speed 6 I think we shouldn't bother trying to catch. Just deal with them via long ranged lances & other weapons. So that gives me a ceiling of 6, where anything faster than that probably belongs in a different fleet.

Click to shrink...

My main reason for the fast ships is to harass the enemy as they close with our main force and to keep them in a single formation. The last thing I want is to be battering a Orbital Defence screen while a dozen small fleets harass us from all angles. In that case a little group of cruisers and escorts would run up, kill a few ships on the edge of our formation, then run off as we shift to counter them. As we shift around to fight the first group a second and third would slip in through holes made by the movements to hit other targets then split away from a counter attack. The Fast group is both big enough and fast enough to run down any such group and force them into larger groups which the battle line can get at. I also want them to be able to swing around a battle line to hit the rear of it make them weaken the front to protect their Range ships.

I'm holding that the Popes and Templars will have big enough strike wings to not need a large number of smaller carriers letting us fill up on the line ships and use the BB's to batter down the big Defense Stations at range while also not making the loss of one hurt as much as the Saint going down would. On the Descent Class I don't want a huge number till I can see how they well preform and can take ground fire. Ten should let us see if they can batter down really good defenses while not costing too much if they get swatted like flies from those defenses. If they're good enough I may rise that to 25.

 

[Elder Haman]

you wait for him to organise this, while it is your idea it is a bit out of place for you to be the one organizing it

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's why I didn't just propose it. It seemed to me something we needed to get Alfheim on board with and maybe leading the way on.

I think we might have actually handled that just right from a diplomatic sense.

I figure it's just us adding a little +bonus of the rest of the Imperial Trust in fights against Orks.

 

[runes]

So now we're waiting for the second meeting for the Navy stuff to go up then we finish this up?

 

[Elder Haman]

@durin Are we voting now on what fleet to present to the Navy discussion?

Or are we waiting for another post?

 

[Durin]

Yeah, that's why I didn't just propose it. It seemed to me something we needed to get Alfheim on board with and maybe leading the way on.

I figure it's just us adding a little +bonus of the rest of the Imperial Trust in fights against Orks.

Click to shrink...

pretty much

 

[Durin]

So now we're waiting for the second meeting for the Navy stuff to go up then we finish this up?

Click to shrink...

@durin Are we voting now on what fleet to present to the Navy discussion?

Or are we waiting for another post?

Click to shrink...

you are waiting for another pst which I am working on, it should be a couple of hours
or less then one

 

[runes]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Page Class is the Cruiser hunter killer escort and the Legionnaire Class is the Escort hunter killer correct?

 

[Elder Haman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Page Class is the Cruiser hunter killer escort and the Legionnaire Class is the Escort hunter killer correct?

Click to shrink...

I believe so.

The Page class is heavily armored and slow. Have lances.

The Legionnaire have short range weapons, and is cheap and medium.