- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
i was not planning to
-
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
HanEmpire
Delicious
Frederick Rotbart is indeed an absolute dictator, but that doesn't mean he's open to abusing his power that way. His entire characterization so far has been that of benevolence and duty, and it'd take particularly bad questing to even allow that kind of insanity. His actions have been towards acting with the consent/approval of his subjects, and very good justifications if not (eg. the Abomination cultist outbreaks).
That extends to the policing action as well - you might have noticed that all the players have been arguing for consented, cooperative infiltration of the criminal world with no hidden agenda. If the Governor refused, we wouldn't have done anything. The option would merely exist, just as the Big Brother option has existed for us since the early turns.
Also this does not compare to fluoridation of water at all. At what point does dental hygiene enforcement equate to drugging people into uncontrollable rutting? And where did anyone say that we'd be pumping that stuff into the air?
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- Location
- his hidden lair
First of all, nice straw man you got there. There's such a thing as diluting a compound. And how does 'ensure a stable population growth rate in spite of Avernus wildlife' not qualify as a duty? Seriously, the entire purpose of Avernus is to produce the finest soldiers of humanity outside of the Astartes. More population means larger cities with heavier defenses and more soldiers to defend them.
Tell me, what part of ensuring that Avernus has more manpower for soldiery is remotely in conflict with his duties?
How so? Are we encouraging the birth of children that will be mistreated? That can't be cared for? That will be left on the streets? That will be thrown away into orphanages the victims of a system? Is there any reason whatsoever to think these children would have any lesser a life than those of any other children born on Avernus. Especially when a massive amount of state effort goes to ensuring the best possible orphanages? And what you consider morally questionable, isn't IC reasoning to dismiss an option. Rotbart, is a man from the 43rd millenia, where human life is cheap and morality something that's been heavily trampled on. How is watching the populace and violating their privacy to ensure none of them are up to any subversive activity any different than that? Do you believe the government has any right to monitor a person in their own home? To execute them on suspicion alone? Individual rights don't really exist in the setting, and it's rather irritating that people keep on trying to hamfistedly force them in when their character is a product of the civilization who systematically tore down that very notion.
Quite frankly, that kind of attitude is a lot of what's wrong with this quest. The notion of the individual over the state, of inalienable rights, of moral governance. It's supposed to be that way. That's a cornerstone of the setting and people are trying to destroy it when it's still completely OC to do so.
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HanEmpire
Delicious
There is a very good IC reason not to do that, because being an absolute authoritarian that squashes the individual feeds the Abomination. We had the mouthpiece of a God tell us so.
We've been moving Avernus towards RL ideals for the majority of the quest now, explicitly because doing as the Imperium did will get us damned to Chaos.
EDIT: Diluting the compound doesn't really fix the real issue, which is that it's abusive of a leader to do so.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Are we making ship designs? I have a tentative one...
Stealth Minelayer
Stable Plasma Reactor
Passive Sensors
Stealth Engines
Long Haul Life Support Systems
Ancile Void Shield?
Reflux Shield
Stealth Armour Plating
Cargo Bays?
Stealth Mine
Stable Plasma Reactor
Passive Sensors?
Stealth Armour Plating
Reflux Shield?
Vortex Bomb
Stealth Minelayer
Stable Plasma Reactor
Passive Sensors
Stealth Engines
Long Haul Life Support Systems
Ancile Void Shield?
Reflux Shield
Stealth Armour Plating
Cargo Bays?
Stealth Mine
Stable Plasma Reactor
Passive Sensors?
Stealth Armour Plating
Reflux Shield?
Vortex Bomb
Trade with Vanaheim and Nilfheim Results
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Trade with Vanaheim and Nilfheim Results
You commissioned Vanaheim to repair a decent sized fraction of the hulks that you have surveyed, including the Alexander Class Command Battleship and the Einherjar Class Command Battleship as well as sixty Cruisers, forty Light Cruisers and twelve hundred escorts. You sold the Genghis Class Command Battleship and almost all of the smaller hulks that have been surveyed. While this left Avernus significantly in debt to Vanaheim you will be able to easily make that up by selling more hulks as they are surveyed. You also brought a thousand tugs which will be able to quickly move ships from the ship graveyard to Deiphobe.
Avernus Owes Vanaheim 43,436.14 Credits
Your trade deal with Niflheim was much simpler, you brought all of the exotic material and most of the advanced material while paying off some of the costs with thrones metal and material.
Avernus owes Nilfheim: 994.3 Credits
You commissioned Vanaheim to repair a decent sized fraction of the hulks that you have surveyed, including the Alexander Class Command Battleship and the Einherjar Class Command Battleship as well as sixty Cruisers, forty Light Cruisers and twelve hundred escorts. You sold the Genghis Class Command Battleship and almost all of the smaller hulks that have been surveyed. While this left Avernus significantly in debt to Vanaheim you will be able to easily make that up by selling more hulks as they are surveyed. You also brought a thousand tugs which will be able to quickly move ships from the ship graveyard to Deiphobe.
Avernus Owes Vanaheim 43,436.14 Credits
Einherjar Class Command Battleship - 64,352.0 Credits
Alexander Class Command Battleship (Tithe) - 126,616.6 Credits
50x Warrior Class Cruiser (Mostly Destroyed) - 29,085 Credits
10x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Mostly Destroyed) - 5,817 Credits
40x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Destroyed) - 13,556 Credits
200x Squire Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 10,920 Credits
200x Page Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 10,920 Credits
800x Soldier Class Destroyer (Mostly Intact) - 17,200 Credits
1000x Tug - 15,000 Credits
Total Vanaheim Purchase: 293,466.6 Credits
Alexander Class Command Battleship (Tithe) - 126,616.6 Credits
50x Warrior Class Cruiser (Mostly Destroyed) - 29,085 Credits
10x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Mostly Destroyed) - 5,817 Credits
40x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Destroyed) - 13,556 Credits
200x Squire Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 10,920 Credits
200x Page Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 10,920 Credits
800x Soldier Class Destroyer (Mostly Intact) - 17,200 Credits
1000x Tug - 15,000 Credits
Total Vanaheim Purchase: 293,466.6 Credits
Genghis Class Command Battleship - 79,137.6 Credits
28x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Half Destroyed) - 8,430.8 Credits
13x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Mostly Intact) - 4,373.2 Credits
25x Warrior Class Cruiser (Mostly Intact) - 8,410 Credits
40x Warrior Class Cruiser (Half Destroyed) - 12,044 Credits
120x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Destroyed) - 6,408 Credits
80x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Half Destroyed) - 8,552 Credits
30x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Intact) - 6,516 Credits
2x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Fully Intact) - 483.4 Credits
625x Squire Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 30,000 Credits
8x Squire Class Frigate (Fully Intact) - 487.2 Credits
625x Page Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 30,000 Credits
7x Squire Class Frigate (Fully Intact) - 426.3 Credits
820x Soldier Class Destroyer (Mostly Intact) - 38,458 Credits 2345
15x Soldier Class Destroyer (Fully Intact) - 795 Credits
Total Vanaheim Sale: 234,521.5 Credits
Current Vanaheim Credits: 15,508.96 Credits
28x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Half Destroyed) - 8,430.8 Credits
13x Praetorian Class Cruiser (Mostly Intact) - 4,373.2 Credits
25x Warrior Class Cruiser (Mostly Intact) - 8,410 Credits
40x Warrior Class Cruiser (Half Destroyed) - 12,044 Credits
120x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Destroyed) - 6,408 Credits
80x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Half Destroyed) - 8,552 Credits
30x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Mostly Intact) - 6,516 Credits
2x Monk Class Escort Carrier (Fully Intact) - 483.4 Credits
625x Squire Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 30,000 Credits
8x Squire Class Frigate (Fully Intact) - 487.2 Credits
625x Page Class Frigate (Mostly Intact) - 30,000 Credits
7x Squire Class Frigate (Fully Intact) - 426.3 Credits
820x Soldier Class Destroyer (Mostly Intact) - 38,458 Credits 2345
15x Soldier Class Destroyer (Fully Intact) - 795 Credits
Total Vanaheim Sale: 234,521.5 Credits
Current Vanaheim Credits: 15,508.96 Credits
Your trade deal with Niflheim was much simpler, you brought all of the exotic material and most of the advanced material while paying off some of the costs with thrones metal and material.
Avernus owes Nilfheim: 994.3 Credits
Buy from Niflheim
-391,000 Advanced Material per year (10,674.3 Cr)
-4,000 Exotic Material per year (5,920 Cr)
Total Purchase from Nilfheim: 16,594.3 Credits
Sell to Niflheim
-200,000,000 Thrones per year (900 Cr)
-200,000,000 Material per year (8,440 Cr)
-200,000,000 Metal per year (6,260 Cr)
-391,000 Advanced Material per year (10,674.3 Cr)
-4,000 Exotic Material per year (5,920 Cr)
Total Purchase from Nilfheim: 16,594.3 Credits
Sell to Niflheim
-200,000,000 Thrones per year (900 Cr)
-200,000,000 Material per year (8,440 Cr)
-200,000,000 Metal per year (6,260 Cr)
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- Location
- not telling
Looking at the Quartok Protectorates statistics they're have a Thrones, Material, and small Advanced Material income but no Metal or Promethium Income at all. Which as a side note makes me wonder how they're make said Material with no Metal unless it's coming out of their reserves and were they got the reserves unless we gave it to them as part of the whole "build you a city" thing. Anyway as it stands they have a 3% Promethium and Advanced Material deficit with a 1% Metal deficit per year. Should we give them a stimulus package to cover that till they have a source (let them set up small mining/oil wells in another region?) for more opinion points or should we just start selling to them for Thrones and Material? It's odd that they have Exports: Luxuries, Food listed but I can't tell were it's going.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
it is going to your civilians
- Location
- not telling
Ah. Would we have to set up a trade or can that happen in the back ground like Malea makes a deal with the Mayor of The Fens and all we would see is a slightly lower Promethium Income and more Thrones?
Should be "commission" I believe.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
it will be automatic
@durin
I was wondering about Avernus resources. It being so steeped into the Warp and psychic power everywhere are natural occuring psychic materials created on the planet?
Be they from a ore vein soaking up a lot of warp power or deposits of fossilized prehistoric fauna or flora.
The promethium we are pumping out might be saturated with warp power a vein from a long dead Magma Worm's body and who knows what else.
Also Warpstone, maybe?
I was wondering about Avernus resources. It being so steeped into the Warp and psychic power everywhere are natural occuring psychic materials created on the planet?
Be they from a ore vein soaking up a lot of warp power or deposits of fossilized prehistoric fauna or flora.
The promethium we are pumping out might be saturated with warp power a vein from a long dead Magma Worm's body and who knows what else.
Also Warpstone, maybe?
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Please number multiple questions.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
It is a possibility,
@durin - I'm just working on some hypothetical stuff for Vanaheim's work load for repairing stuff. A few questions:
1. How many shipyards/slips do they have at this point?
2. When we repaired Defence Cruisers, we were using 3 slips each instead of the 4 required to build them from scratch and were also able to use the small shipyards for them even though large ones are required to build them. Would it be accurate to say that for the purpose of repairing ships the number of slips needed are 3/4 that of the build slips and you can use one shipyard size lower than required to build?
3. Just wanting confirmation that "Heavy Battleship" in the Shipyards section for Void Command refers to Command Battleship sized vessels.
4. How many slips is needed for a Dreadnought? (also something you might want to add to that sheet)
1. How many shipyards/slips do they have at this point?
2. When we repaired Defence Cruisers, we were using 3 slips each instead of the 4 required to build them from scratch and were also able to use the small shipyards for them even though large ones are required to build them. Would it be accurate to say that for the purpose of repairing ships the number of slips needed are 3/4 that of the build slips and you can use one shipyard size lower than required to build?
3. Just wanting confirmation that "Heavy Battleship" in the Shipyards section for Void Command refers to Command Battleship sized vessels.
4. How many slips is needed for a Dreadnought? (also something you might want to add to that sheet)
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. 1 Gargantuan Shipyard 7 large Shipyards 6 small shipyards
2. On average yes
3. Yes
4. 256
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
I have put op Aryz's stats, will put up his bio tomorrow
The Eldar have Quartoks? *gasp* Those pointy eared bastards have infiltrated us!
Sometimes your auto-correct does funny things, durin.
Anyways, Aryz is quite badass. He fits right in with the Trust.
Badass? Yes, absolutly.
To get that old you need to be. But the Trait 'Glad his on our side' puts it best.
Edit: Only to compare I want to point out that his combat (46) is second only to Surt (51-53) and Sigurd while piloting his Knight Titan (47, misleading as the Knight will add a heavy base bonus as well). His Material (38) is second only to Frederick (48) and maybe Surt (35-40). Just to rub it in how badass he is.
To get that old you need to be. But the Trait 'Glad his on our side' puts it best.
Edit: Only to compare I want to point out that his combat (46) is second only to Surt (51-53) and Sigurd while piloting his Knight Titan (47, misleading as the Knight will add a heavy base bonus as well). His Material (38) is second only to Frederick (48) and maybe Surt (35-40). Just to rub it in how badass he is.
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- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
Wait what? 1527 years?!
- Location
- No
Biological immortality is pretty nice.
Matters of Stone and Iron
Omake time. Just trying to write out the conversation between Frederick and the Fabricator-General over the AI STCs.
As he poured over the report that had been delivered to his office, Frederick Rotbart couldn't help but be amazed at the amount of technology found in the datacores of The Sword of Surtur. The boosts to the Imperial Trust's military power both in space and on the ground would be immense. And the other technologies were also quite impressive. The new medical tools would save quite a few lives, especially the Medi-gel. He wanted to roll those out quickly both to the army and the militia. And the medical diagnostic pods would likely help with early discovery of plagues, allowing them to be stopped quickly.
Of course, Frederick couldn't help but take another look at the specs for the Adjudicator - he was quite excited by the prospect of having one of those as his command center. A melancholy smile crossed his face as he thought about how Freya would have rolled her eyes and made some playful comment about him being a child with a new toy had she still been here. Damn, he still missed her, but at least he could look back on his time with her fondly without it hurting too badly.
He was brought out of his musing when Caroline spoke over the comm. "Sir, Fabricator-General Britton is here to see you."
That was odd. He expected Hawker would want to talk with him regarding the new technologies, but he would expect the leader of the Mechanicus would have scheduled an appointment for it. For him to show up completely unannounced was rather unusual.
"Very well, Caroline. Send him in." A few seconds later the door to his office opened, and the heavily augmented leader of the Cult Mechanicus entered the room followed by a single Myrmidon bodyguard. Frederick could see others, but they were staying outside the room. Another oddity. Frederick's office was large enough that Hawker usually had at least three follow him in. Frederick stood to greet him. "Hawker, it's good to see you. Please, have a seat. To what do I owe the pleasure? Something to do with this latest set of discoveries, I'd presume?"
"Thank you, Frederick." he said while seating himself. "And yes, it has something to do with that. I'm sorry to ask, but could you send out any of your bodyguards who don't have the highest security clearance? Only the most trusted individuals can hear of this, and it must not leave this room."
Definitely something odd, and rather worrying at that. Hawker had never made such a request before. Still, the man was someone Frederick trusted, and his black crystal jewelry wasn't reacting so there wasn't anything Chaotic involved, so this wasn't likely a plot and would probably be something of legitimate concern that was really so important that Frederick couldn't allow even most of his bodyguards to know.
"Alright then. Everybody but Odysseus, please wait outside." It only took two minutes to get his loyal guards to begrudgingly agree. A new record! "Well, that's taken care of, so what's this all about, Hawker?"
"To be frank, I need some advice on what to do. There were two additional STC templates that were found on the datacores that are... problematic in nature." Frederick raised an eyebrow at that. STCs were sacred to the Cult Mechanicus, so ones that could present problems were an extreme abnormality. "The designs are for the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron, the Abominable Intelligences of the Dark Age of Technology."
Frederick was completely silent for about half a minute as what the Fabricator-General had told him registered. The Men of Iron had rebelled against humanity and brought about the end of the Dark Age of Technology. It had been believed they were gone forever. But now the possibility of them coming back into existence was a possibility. The Men of Stone were similarly AIs, and though they had not rebelled the Emperor himself had forbidden the making of AIs due to the actions of their counterparts.
"Yes, that's indeed problematic. Who knows about this?" he asked.
"Archmagos Tranth, a handful of his most trusted acolytes, and the people in this room." So only a small number, with little chance of the information leaking in the short term.
"So then, what do you need advice on? I'm not an expert on technology by any means, much less AIs."
Hawker nodded. "I know, but your insights have been quite helpful to my reforms, and this is related to that. The laws and traditions of the Cult Mechanicus would dictate that I destroy these designs, but we both know that many of the laws and traditions we have long held are deeply flawed. The birth of the Abomination proves that. As such, I have come to ask your advice on whether I should destroy these designs as the old laws and traditions dictate or if I should instead lock them away in my most secure vaults for very careful study at a later date. The destruction would be irreversible, so I want to be sure I'm making the right decision."
That was a sensible enough position as far as Frederick was concerned. The laws were put in place by the Emperor, but the Imperial Truth had revealed that as a man he was not beyond error. In fact he could be just as reactionary as anyone. That didn't mean he was wrong here, just not beyond questioning. "Very well then. I think the best thing to do first would be to discuss what the two designs actually are for. I've read the basic history from Muspelheim's archives, but nothing especially detailed. Let's start with the basics - what are the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron, and what are the differences between them?"
"I have not looked at more than the basic descriptions and specifications of the designs, not wishing to go further as the knowledge how how to build them might prove dangerous in and of itself. Both designs are referred to as 'artificial intelligences', but seem to be radically different. The Men of Stone are stationary constructs, being built into a large core that can be hooked into a larger system. The history from Muspelheim suggests that one use was to install them to act as the 'minds' of larger star ships. The specifications indicate a frankly absurd amount of processing power, dwarfing that available to even the Machine Spirits of Imperator Titans by multiple orders of magnitude.
"The Men of Iron on the other hand are designed to be mobile. They work in humanoid platforms that may act independently, with a significantly smaller core that is apparently modeled after the human brain and is fitted into the chest rather than the head. The amount of processing power an individual possesses is significantly lower than that of one of the Men of Stone, but is still fairly impressive given its size. Their decision making capabilities are comparable to that of a human at an individual level, though they are superior at mathematics and other related tasks. They can also link together to increase their power to solve more complex problems, but only so many individuals can link before the returns diminish, and the processing power is still lower than that of a single Man of Stone at that point.
"I could bore you with the technical details and numbers I have available, but I don't believe that would be particularly helpful. What I've told you is the primary differences between the designs as best as I can tell without delving further into them."
Not too much more than what the historical data indicated, but some additional information that could prove useful. "That's quite interesting. Let me think on that for a bit. Now, the next thing we need to consider is the risks of this decision. Some are obvious. Let's talk about what happens if the information leaks out. What kind of fallout are we looking at, Hawker? You know your adherents better than I do."
"If I were to destroy them both, there would be some small amount of unrest but nothing of significance. It might even better my position with some of the more conservative elements. There would certainly be very few who would criticize the destruction of the Men of Iron STC, though there would likely be more regarding the Men of Stone STC. Things get much more complicated in regards to keeping them." Hawker paused for a moment, likely gathering his thoughts. "As the Mechanicus stands right now, if it were to be found out that I kept the Men of Iron STC I would expect anywhere from a one to two thirds of the Cult Mechanicus to rise up in open rebellion against me."
That was quite daunting. The Imperial Trust would be set back greatly from that large of an uprising. Frederick could see that going poorly for everyone involved. "That would be a problem. It's possible the other worlds would likely have to align themselves with the rebels depending on the size of the uprising, and even if they didn't you would likely have to fall on your sword. Both figuratively and literally. Me as well, if it were discovered I advised you to keep it."
"Indeed. I think it would also be likely many of my reforms would be repealed, especially if the other side won the conflict."
"What about the Men of Stone STC then?"
"That's harder to say. Given the lack of rebellion by the Men of Stone, it will likely be much less of an issue. They're still AIs, though, and as such are forbidden. There would be fallout for certain. At best it would stay purely political in nature, though some small pockets might try to deal with it through force of arms."
"Well then, I suppose a number of the other risks are more obvious. If someone builds these, we might have an AI rebellion on our hands, especially with the Men of Iron since they're proven that they can do that. Someone might steal the designs as well. The Chaos Gods most definitely know we have them and would know if we destroyed them, but they also would know about our other discoveries. It's hard to say how big of a target that makes us for them. What are your thoughts, Hawker?"
"It is... difficult to predict how the Dark Gods will react. From what we know they do not always share information, even important information, with their followers. They are also rivals, and one gaining our technology over the others would result in that one having immense advantage. How the birth of the Abomination affects how they interact is also not yet well understood. We're likely a target, but they would likely interfere with one another's attempts, even if it was the undivided faction that was making one. However, I think they would likely push much harder against us if we keep the Men of Iron STC, as possession would give them a virtually endless amount of soldiers. Any leader among them who gained them would be able to gain undisputed dominance in time."
Frederick suppressed a shudder at the notion of the Dark Gods gaining access to an army of AI soldiers to spread their taint across the galaxy. "That's certainly not a pleasant thought. Now, lastly, what would we stand to gain by keeping the STCs?"
"We know what the Ancients used the Men of Iron for. They were used quite universally. They can work as both laborers and soldiers. We could never build them as is for the risk of rebellion, though. At best, we might be able to figure out what went wrong with the original design, but there's no way to test that without actually building some of the new model and seeing if they rebel or not. Given that the Ancients used the Men of Iron for a long time before they rebelled, we'd have little way of being certain we actually fixed the problem. At the very least, we might be able to get some idea of why the Men of Iron rebelled and the Men of Stone didn't by comparing the two designs.
"For the Men of Stone, we could likely enhance our larger ships as the Ancients did. The could be used to manage automated industry on a large scale. They could be used for research. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure. I might have to see if Champion Surt is willing to send more detailed information on how the Men of Stone were used, though that might raise suspicions if the request was made through official channels."
"It probably would. Though if you do keep the Men of Stone STC it might be worth talking about it to him directly in a private meeting. We both suspect that Muspelheim has something going on that's considered tech heresy by the Mechanicus at large, and Surt doesn't want that getting out for obvious reasons in spite of whatever it is not having lead them to Chaos or any other apparent disasters. That said, he knows you are at least somewhat more open minded to reforms and new ideas, so sharing a secret like that might get him to open up more to you personally. That said, there's no rush on that."
"Mhmm, something to consider, but not relevant at the moment." Hawker acknowledged.
"Right then, I think I've heard enough that I can give you my recommendation. I would say you should destroy the Men of Iron STC, but keep the Men of Stone STC."
"You're reasoning?"
"For the Men of Iron, the risks outweigh the rewards by a wide margin. Even at the high end of the spectrum of possible benefits, we could never be certain we solved the problem with them. The possibility of rebellion would always be there. Personally I think their capacity to link is the most obvious vector for trouble, be it through Chaotic scrap code or just as a way to plot rebellion without humanity catching on, but even if we removed that we couldn't be certain that they wouldn't rebel anyways. That leaves learning about them as purely an intellectual exercise, possibly figuring out why the rebelled, but the knowledge to build them would still exist and some idiot might do so to sate their curiosity.
"Then there's the problem of the information leaking, which in the short term would throw the Imperial Trust into a state of civil war and endanger the mission the Emperor gave us. And Chaos targeting us even more is just not something we want to deal with, and if their forces did get their hands on the knowledge it would be disastrous for the entire galaxy."
The Fabricator-General nodded. "I can't say I disagree. What of the other STC? Why keep it?"
"It's a risk, but a far lesser one. The stationary nature of the Men of Stone AIs means that they could be dealt with a lot easier if problems occur - just put guards nearby to shoot the core. You can also just not give them access to systems that would enable them to escape or fight back. They're also less useful to the forces of Chaos than an army of mechanical men would be, even if they would benefit. It's not like the Dark Mechanicus doesn't already use AIs in some capacity, even if these are likely far better. As such they don't get us quite the same amount of unwanted attention, or at least not much more than we're already likely to receive."
Hawker made some kind of mechanical grunting sound at the mention of his organization's Chaotic counterpart, though he didn't indicate any kind of disagreement with the premise that they were already quite heretical in regards to AIs.
"On the other hand, we would potentially see benefits in quite a few places if the Men of Stone can indeed be used safely. Also, unlike with the Men of Iron we might be able to lessen the fallout through clever arguments. The fact that the Men of Stone didn't rebel against mankind could be used to indicate certain possibilities. After all, it's likely the Men of Stone would have had ample opportunity to join in on the Men of Iron's rebellion, and the rebellion would have possibly been successful had they done so. As far as we're aware, the Ancients didn't have a conception of the notion of a Machine Spirit, or at least they didn't use the term for it. For all we know, the term 'artificial intelligence' might well encompass some of the greater Machine Spirits. You argue this to any detractors and simply say you're doing your due diligence to determine if this difference is the case, as it would actually be blasphemy to destroy the STC if the Men of Stone were actually greater Machine Spirits."
At this notion the Fabricator-General actually chuckled. It was an even more odd sound than the grunting. "That would probably work for the most part. It might surprise you, but I suspect that the Mechanicus has labeled useful AIs as Machine Spirits in the past. It's not something that was shared at large, but many Magos who attained a certain level of trust could work around a number of restrictions if they were careful."
Frederick shook his head. "I wish I could say it does, but every organization in the Imperium had its dirty laundry. Anyways, is there anything else, Hawker?"
"Not for today, Frederick, not for today. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Now, I think I'd best take my leave before our bodyguards decide that this has been going on too long and break down your door out of concern."
Matters of Stone and Iron
As he poured over the report that had been delivered to his office, Frederick Rotbart couldn't help but be amazed at the amount of technology found in the datacores of The Sword of Surtur. The boosts to the Imperial Trust's military power both in space and on the ground would be immense. And the other technologies were also quite impressive. The new medical tools would save quite a few lives, especially the Medi-gel. He wanted to roll those out quickly both to the army and the militia. And the medical diagnostic pods would likely help with early discovery of plagues, allowing them to be stopped quickly.
Of course, Frederick couldn't help but take another look at the specs for the Adjudicator - he was quite excited by the prospect of having one of those as his command center. A melancholy smile crossed his face as he thought about how Freya would have rolled her eyes and made some playful comment about him being a child with a new toy had she still been here. Damn, he still missed her, but at least he could look back on his time with her fondly without it hurting too badly.
He was brought out of his musing when Caroline spoke over the comm. "Sir, Fabricator-General Britton is here to see you."
That was odd. He expected Hawker would want to talk with him regarding the new technologies, but he would expect the leader of the Mechanicus would have scheduled an appointment for it. For him to show up completely unannounced was rather unusual.
"Very well, Caroline. Send him in." A few seconds later the door to his office opened, and the heavily augmented leader of the Cult Mechanicus entered the room followed by a single Myrmidon bodyguard. Frederick could see others, but they were staying outside the room. Another oddity. Frederick's office was large enough that Hawker usually had at least three follow him in. Frederick stood to greet him. "Hawker, it's good to see you. Please, have a seat. To what do I owe the pleasure? Something to do with this latest set of discoveries, I'd presume?"
"Thank you, Frederick." he said while seating himself. "And yes, it has something to do with that. I'm sorry to ask, but could you send out any of your bodyguards who don't have the highest security clearance? Only the most trusted individuals can hear of this, and it must not leave this room."
Definitely something odd, and rather worrying at that. Hawker had never made such a request before. Still, the man was someone Frederick trusted, and his black crystal jewelry wasn't reacting so there wasn't anything Chaotic involved, so this wasn't likely a plot and would probably be something of legitimate concern that was really so important that Frederick couldn't allow even most of his bodyguards to know.
"Alright then. Everybody but Odysseus, please wait outside." It only took two minutes to get his loyal guards to begrudgingly agree. A new record! "Well, that's taken care of, so what's this all about, Hawker?"
"To be frank, I need some advice on what to do. There were two additional STC templates that were found on the datacores that are... problematic in nature." Frederick raised an eyebrow at that. STCs were sacred to the Cult Mechanicus, so ones that could present problems were an extreme abnormality. "The designs are for the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron, the Abominable Intelligences of the Dark Age of Technology."
Frederick was completely silent for about half a minute as what the Fabricator-General had told him registered. The Men of Iron had rebelled against humanity and brought about the end of the Dark Age of Technology. It had been believed they were gone forever. But now the possibility of them coming back into existence was a possibility. The Men of Stone were similarly AIs, and though they had not rebelled the Emperor himself had forbidden the making of AIs due to the actions of their counterparts.
"Yes, that's indeed problematic. Who knows about this?" he asked.
"Archmagos Tranth, a handful of his most trusted acolytes, and the people in this room." So only a small number, with little chance of the information leaking in the short term.
"So then, what do you need advice on? I'm not an expert on technology by any means, much less AIs."
Hawker nodded. "I know, but your insights have been quite helpful to my reforms, and this is related to that. The laws and traditions of the Cult Mechanicus would dictate that I destroy these designs, but we both know that many of the laws and traditions we have long held are deeply flawed. The birth of the Abomination proves that. As such, I have come to ask your advice on whether I should destroy these designs as the old laws and traditions dictate or if I should instead lock them away in my most secure vaults for very careful study at a later date. The destruction would be irreversible, so I want to be sure I'm making the right decision."
That was a sensible enough position as far as Frederick was concerned. The laws were put in place by the Emperor, but the Imperial Truth had revealed that as a man he was not beyond error. In fact he could be just as reactionary as anyone. That didn't mean he was wrong here, just not beyond questioning. "Very well then. I think the best thing to do first would be to discuss what the two designs actually are for. I've read the basic history from Muspelheim's archives, but nothing especially detailed. Let's start with the basics - what are the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron, and what are the differences between them?"
"I have not looked at more than the basic descriptions and specifications of the designs, not wishing to go further as the knowledge how how to build them might prove dangerous in and of itself. Both designs are referred to as 'artificial intelligences', but seem to be radically different. The Men of Stone are stationary constructs, being built into a large core that can be hooked into a larger system. The history from Muspelheim suggests that one use was to install them to act as the 'minds' of larger star ships. The specifications indicate a frankly absurd amount of processing power, dwarfing that available to even the Machine Spirits of Imperator Titans by multiple orders of magnitude.
"The Men of Iron on the other hand are designed to be mobile. They work in humanoid platforms that may act independently, with a significantly smaller core that is apparently modeled after the human brain and is fitted into the chest rather than the head. The amount of processing power an individual possesses is significantly lower than that of one of the Men of Stone, but is still fairly impressive given its size. Their decision making capabilities are comparable to that of a human at an individual level, though they are superior at mathematics and other related tasks. They can also link together to increase their power to solve more complex problems, but only so many individuals can link before the returns diminish, and the processing power is still lower than that of a single Man of Stone at that point.
"I could bore you with the technical details and numbers I have available, but I don't believe that would be particularly helpful. What I've told you is the primary differences between the designs as best as I can tell without delving further into them."
Not too much more than what the historical data indicated, but some additional information that could prove useful. "That's quite interesting. Let me think on that for a bit. Now, the next thing we need to consider is the risks of this decision. Some are obvious. Let's talk about what happens if the information leaks out. What kind of fallout are we looking at, Hawker? You know your adherents better than I do."
"If I were to destroy them both, there would be some small amount of unrest but nothing of significance. It might even better my position with some of the more conservative elements. There would certainly be very few who would criticize the destruction of the Men of Iron STC, though there would likely be more regarding the Men of Stone STC. Things get much more complicated in regards to keeping them." Hawker paused for a moment, likely gathering his thoughts. "As the Mechanicus stands right now, if it were to be found out that I kept the Men of Iron STC I would expect anywhere from a one to two thirds of the Cult Mechanicus to rise up in open rebellion against me."
That was quite daunting. The Imperial Trust would be set back greatly from that large of an uprising. Frederick could see that going poorly for everyone involved. "That would be a problem. It's possible the other worlds would likely have to align themselves with the rebels depending on the size of the uprising, and even if they didn't you would likely have to fall on your sword. Both figuratively and literally. Me as well, if it were discovered I advised you to keep it."
"Indeed. I think it would also be likely many of my reforms would be repealed, especially if the other side won the conflict."
"What about the Men of Stone STC then?"
"That's harder to say. Given the lack of rebellion by the Men of Stone, it will likely be much less of an issue. They're still AIs, though, and as such are forbidden. There would be fallout for certain. At best it would stay purely political in nature, though some small pockets might try to deal with it through force of arms."
"Well then, I suppose a number of the other risks are more obvious. If someone builds these, we might have an AI rebellion on our hands, especially with the Men of Iron since they're proven that they can do that. Someone might steal the designs as well. The Chaos Gods most definitely know we have them and would know if we destroyed them, but they also would know about our other discoveries. It's hard to say how big of a target that makes us for them. What are your thoughts, Hawker?"
"It is... difficult to predict how the Dark Gods will react. From what we know they do not always share information, even important information, with their followers. They are also rivals, and one gaining our technology over the others would result in that one having immense advantage. How the birth of the Abomination affects how they interact is also not yet well understood. We're likely a target, but they would likely interfere with one another's attempts, even if it was the undivided faction that was making one. However, I think they would likely push much harder against us if we keep the Men of Iron STC, as possession would give them a virtually endless amount of soldiers. Any leader among them who gained them would be able to gain undisputed dominance in time."
Frederick suppressed a shudder at the notion of the Dark Gods gaining access to an army of AI soldiers to spread their taint across the galaxy. "That's certainly not a pleasant thought. Now, lastly, what would we stand to gain by keeping the STCs?"
"We know what the Ancients used the Men of Iron for. They were used quite universally. They can work as both laborers and soldiers. We could never build them as is for the risk of rebellion, though. At best, we might be able to figure out what went wrong with the original design, but there's no way to test that without actually building some of the new model and seeing if they rebel or not. Given that the Ancients used the Men of Iron for a long time before they rebelled, we'd have little way of being certain we actually fixed the problem. At the very least, we might be able to get some idea of why the Men of Iron rebelled and the Men of Stone didn't by comparing the two designs.
"For the Men of Stone, we could likely enhance our larger ships as the Ancients did. The could be used to manage automated industry on a large scale. They could be used for research. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure. I might have to see if Champion Surt is willing to send more detailed information on how the Men of Stone were used, though that might raise suspicions if the request was made through official channels."
"It probably would. Though if you do keep the Men of Stone STC it might be worth talking about it to him directly in a private meeting. We both suspect that Muspelheim has something going on that's considered tech heresy by the Mechanicus at large, and Surt doesn't want that getting out for obvious reasons in spite of whatever it is not having lead them to Chaos or any other apparent disasters. That said, he knows you are at least somewhat more open minded to reforms and new ideas, so sharing a secret like that might get him to open up more to you personally. That said, there's no rush on that."
"Mhmm, something to consider, but not relevant at the moment." Hawker acknowledged.
"Right then, I think I've heard enough that I can give you my recommendation. I would say you should destroy the Men of Iron STC, but keep the Men of Stone STC."
"You're reasoning?"
"For the Men of Iron, the risks outweigh the rewards by a wide margin. Even at the high end of the spectrum of possible benefits, we could never be certain we solved the problem with them. The possibility of rebellion would always be there. Personally I think their capacity to link is the most obvious vector for trouble, be it through Chaotic scrap code or just as a way to plot rebellion without humanity catching on, but even if we removed that we couldn't be certain that they wouldn't rebel anyways. That leaves learning about them as purely an intellectual exercise, possibly figuring out why the rebelled, but the knowledge to build them would still exist and some idiot might do so to sate their curiosity.
"Then there's the problem of the information leaking, which in the short term would throw the Imperial Trust into a state of civil war and endanger the mission the Emperor gave us. And Chaos targeting us even more is just not something we want to deal with, and if their forces did get their hands on the knowledge it would be disastrous for the entire galaxy."
The Fabricator-General nodded. "I can't say I disagree. What of the other STC? Why keep it?"
"It's a risk, but a far lesser one. The stationary nature of the Men of Stone AIs means that they could be dealt with a lot easier if problems occur - just put guards nearby to shoot the core. You can also just not give them access to systems that would enable them to escape or fight back. They're also less useful to the forces of Chaos than an army of mechanical men would be, even if they would benefit. It's not like the Dark Mechanicus doesn't already use AIs in some capacity, even if these are likely far better. As such they don't get us quite the same amount of unwanted attention, or at least not much more than we're already likely to receive."
Hawker made some kind of mechanical grunting sound at the mention of his organization's Chaotic counterpart, though he didn't indicate any kind of disagreement with the premise that they were already quite heretical in regards to AIs.
"On the other hand, we would potentially see benefits in quite a few places if the Men of Stone can indeed be used safely. Also, unlike with the Men of Iron we might be able to lessen the fallout through clever arguments. The fact that the Men of Stone didn't rebel against mankind could be used to indicate certain possibilities. After all, it's likely the Men of Stone would have had ample opportunity to join in on the Men of Iron's rebellion, and the rebellion would have possibly been successful had they done so. As far as we're aware, the Ancients didn't have a conception of the notion of a Machine Spirit, or at least they didn't use the term for it. For all we know, the term 'artificial intelligence' might well encompass some of the greater Machine Spirits. You argue this to any detractors and simply say you're doing your due diligence to determine if this difference is the case, as it would actually be blasphemy to destroy the STC if the Men of Stone were actually greater Machine Spirits."
At this notion the Fabricator-General actually chuckled. It was an even more odd sound than the grunting. "That would probably work for the most part. It might surprise you, but I suspect that the Mechanicus has labeled useful AIs as Machine Spirits in the past. It's not something that was shared at large, but many Magos who attained a certain level of trust could work around a number of restrictions if they were careful."
Frederick shook his head. "I wish I could say it does, but every organization in the Imperium had its dirty laundry. Anyways, is there anything else, Hawker?"
"Not for today, Frederick, not for today. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Now, I think I'd best take my leave before our bodyguards decide that this has been going on too long and break down your door out of concern."
