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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
I don't think we can assume that the Imperial culture around civil servants not marrying is the standard anymore.
Also, I have agreed tot he compromise of requiring the Governor to be native born (or a resident at independence). Does that not create a way that it would be difficult for the colonizer to abuse the colony in the way you fear?
I mean, you are proposing the draconian plan of requiring 2/3 of the government be quota reserved for native born people at the time of independence. That's seems likely to cause a lot of problems, and provides no flexibility.
All to deal with a concern that I don't even see as likely. Which of the Nine worlds are going to try and pull this crap, (and if they did that would be grounds for appealing to the High Council to intervene).
It just seems like you are breaking out the sledge hammer to deal with the fly in your soup.
If merely the Governor being native born isn't enough, can't we come up with some additional less drastic measures to deal with your concerns other than a native born quota system?
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Skewfiend
The Corruptor of All Things
- Location
- The Darkness Behind Your Eyes
What about just an explicit stipulation to Enjou's vote that the limits be reached by freezes on offworld-born recruitment, rather than by firing older officials.
If the colony has a higher-than quota proportion of offworlders in office, they can only recruit locals until such time as the quota is met.
That way, no-one loses their job, but the government moves slowly towards being more representative of the populace, and less likely to have problematic ties to the coloniser.
@Enjou, @Elder Haman, what would you think of such a plan?
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Not given that it is the local government that can appeal to the High Council there are issues with this
I'm fine with this. I don't really have strong feelings against them.
Hmm... who opposes?
That's an interesting mixture...
What additional protection measures can we make that might persuade people...
That plan would address the greatest of my concerns. Hard to figure out how to enforce it...
Valkur
The True Valkyria, Valkur!
- Location
- Fólkvangr
Didn't work well with the Soviet union either...
HanEmpire
Delicious
There is no unemployment in Paradise.
So brainstorming ideas here about other ways to deal with the concern about a colonizer stacking the deck in their favors.
(That means some of these are stupid ideas, but I'm going to just throw them all out there and see if any of them can be polished into something good.):
1: Require government officials have children (on the colony).
- That provides the incentive that I'm expecting, but awkward requirement.
2: Some kind of limit on when new administrators can be hired on (Skewfiend's idea). Maybe something like: "At 40 years, the colony government must begin hiring all new/replacement government officials from native born colonists."
That would be a way to block any attempt to keep importing additional administrators, but would not require firing current administrators.
3: Put a length of residency requirement on other government positions. Something like requiring 50 years of residency.
What do people see as the pros and cons?
Instinct leans me towards #2 as blocking the specific worry, but #3 seems a more elegant way to deal with it.
@Enjou - @runes Your thoughts?
(That means some of these are stupid ideas, but I'm going to just throw them all out there and see if any of them can be polished into something good.):
1: Require government officials have children (on the colony).
- That provides the incentive that I'm expecting, but awkward requirement.
2: Some kind of limit on when new administrators can be hired on (Skewfiend's idea). Maybe something like: "At 40 years, the colony government must begin hiring all new/replacement government officials from native born colonists."
That would be a way to block any attempt to keep importing additional administrators, but would not require firing current administrators.
3: Put a length of residency requirement on other government positions. Something like requiring 50 years of residency.
What do people see as the pros and cons?
Instinct leans me towards #2 as blocking the specific worry, but #3 seems a more elegant way to deal with it.
@Enjou - @runes Your thoughts?
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How about adding a mandate for some form of protection for those who are replaced to meet a quota must have some sort of contractual protection from the colonizer - this could be in the form of a pension that is some percentage of their salary, the guarantee of a job with equivalent pay back on the colonizer's world, or some other contractually agreed upon measure negotiated between the colonizer and the employee. Would that sway any additional votes?
Hard to say. There hasn't really been any indication of it being changed, though. Again, only Henry and one Lt. General have married for non-political purposes. It's discouraged, but usually wasn't illegal, IIRC.
Not necessarily. It depends on how the Governor is chosen - it's not necessarily a permanent position like it is with Avernus. Vanaheim's Governor is chosen by the All Thing, so if the colonizer sets up a similar system where they control who picks the Governor they can just elect a puppet Governor. Svartalfheim's government is also such that the Governor doesn't have a lot of power, with the Administratum running things. It's very easy to work around the requirement if the Governor is the only person who it applies to by giving the Governor very little actual power.
Again, I think you're just not thinking of this as a situation where the government in question is growing and recruiting locally over a long period of time - it's not like they will be making the change all at once, and it shouldn't be necessary to replace many people, if any. And again, the people who agree to do the job will do so knowing that their positions may not be permanent.
Also, while I don't think the current Nine Worlds would try to pull this kind of crap, the governments could change over time or the colonies who found their own colonies might try crap.
Presumably the same way we'd enforce any of this. (I would imagine it starts with tithes raised or some other sanctions, and eventually goes to a military option if someone isn't complying with the law)
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HanEmpire
Delicious
Yeah no, I'd rather not have the highest government going around mandating people's private lives.
I did say some of them were stupid ideas.
So down to these two then:
"Starting at forty years in existence the colony government must begin hiring all new/replacement government officials from native born colonists."
Or
"After fifty years, 50% of the local government officials must have 25 years of residency. After seventy-five years 66% of the local government officials must have 35 years of residency. After one hundred years 75% of the local government officials must have 50 years of residency."
Something like that?
Leaning towards #3 now... that establishes that these are not newcomers but long time residents running the government.
My main concern is not kicking out the ones that have been there from the early years, losing their wisdom and experience, while also depriving them of their just deserts.
Not really as concerned about johnny come lately having to wait fifty years before he gets to work for the government. 25% should leave enough space for importing specific experts.
Valkur
The True Valkyria, Valkur!
- Location
- Fólkvangr
What if we did this:
Rule 1: 1st wave Colonial Administrators must live on the colony and promise to live in the colony until either their terms is done or quit.
Rule 2: 1st Generational Admins should be in power for 35 years which should be enough for a brand new generation to take over at least half of the administration. The Colonial Governor (aka the planetary Governor) is exempt from rule but must abide by rule 1.
Rule 3: 75 years after the founding the entire administration must resign except for the Governor. The Governor will be encouraged to step down but they may stay in power for a maximum of 10 years if they can prove the need to the High Security Council via petition. Reasons must be serious such as needing experience against a pandemic problem and show that only they can fix it adequately.
If not, the Governor steps down and a new one is elected amongst the administration or by the people. (Not sure if we want to do parliamentary or popular elections)
Rule 4: All Administrators who are eligible after generation 1 must have been and raised in the Colony. They are allowed to visit other planets if they choose to for any reason, from pleasure to work to family, but must always have their property paid for on the planet.
From here my question would be..should Colonial Governors be a hereditary position, elected position, or meritocracy position? Note the last one could be dangerous since it's hard to measure 'success'.
Rule 1: 1st wave Colonial Administrators must live on the colony and promise to live in the colony until either their terms is done or quit.
Rule 2: 1st Generational Admins should be in power for 35 years which should be enough for a brand new generation to take over at least half of the administration. The Colonial Governor (aka the planetary Governor) is exempt from rule but must abide by rule 1.
Rule 3: 75 years after the founding the entire administration must resign except for the Governor. The Governor will be encouraged to step down but they may stay in power for a maximum of 10 years if they can prove the need to the High Security Council via petition. Reasons must be serious such as needing experience against a pandemic problem and show that only they can fix it adequately.
If not, the Governor steps down and a new one is elected amongst the administration or by the people. (Not sure if we want to do parliamentary or popular elections)
Rule 4: All Administrators who are eligible after generation 1 must have been and raised in the Colony. They are allowed to visit other planets if they choose to for any reason, from pleasure to work to family, but must always have their property paid for on the planet.
From here my question would be..should Colonial Governors be a hereditary position, elected position, or meritocracy position? Note the last one could be dangerous since it's hard to measure 'success'.
I could even change it to this:
"After fifty years, 50% of the local government officials must be native born or have 25 years of residency. After seventy-five years 66% of the local government officials must be native born or have 35 years of residency. After one hundred years 75% of the local government officials must be native born or have 50 years of residency."
That's complicated, and Rule 3 is exactly what I want to avoid.
I meant more figuring out how to phrase it in a measurable manner so that we would know when to drop the hammer.
HanEmpire
Delicious
That last one is an important distinction, elsewise we'd have put an age limit on government membership.
We should seriously think about a minimum age requirement though, I'd rather not have local governments electing kids or something.
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Yeah, originally I didn't mean to put an age limit, then I realized the phrasing would mean that.
I don't really feel the need to impose an age limit, I figure that they can do that themselves (and probably will).
Valkur
The True Valkyria, Valkur!
- Location
- Fólkvangr
Again. I don't really care for my plan since it's less than half baked BUT
How will Colonial Governors be decided? Do we choose? Is it elected? Heredittary?
Hell I feel like making it hereditary to simplify the problem but..problems would be SO simple to pop up after a couple of generations. But that's any CK2 game rigth?
How will Colonial Governors be decided? Do we choose? Is it elected? Heredittary?
Hell I feel like making it hereditary to simplify the problem but..problems would be SO simple to pop up after a couple of generations. But that's any CK2 game rigth?
@durin
If my plan for safeguards had this added:
"After fifty years, 50% of the local government officials must be native born or have 25 years of residency. After seventy-five years 66% of the local government officials must be native born or have 35 years of residency. After one hundred years 75% of the local government officials must be native born or have 50 years of residency."
Would that sway the vote to a majority?
If my plan for safeguards had this added:
"After fifty years, 50% of the local government officials must be native born or have 25 years of residency. After seventy-five years 66% of the local government officials must be native born or have 35 years of residency. After one hundred years 75% of the local government officials must be native born or have 50 years of residency."
Would that sway the vote to a majority?
Probably will follow the pattern of the colonizer. With possible variance on those colonized by Avernus (Since we don't have a strong tradition).
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
HanEmpire
Delicious
Hmm, just an errant thought: the availability of Hyper-Juvenat means that the residency requirements alone won't be able to stop colony-patrons from dominating the local governments. As long as they play things diplomatically and prevent resentment from cropping up, the patron can simply put a nobility class into place made up of privileged folk with extensive ties to the motherworld. The Vanir and Aesir will most likely try something like this.
Skewfiend
The Corruptor of All Things
- Location
- The Darkness Behind Your Eyes
I was thinking more along the lines of: "After 40 years, the colony government must begin hiring all new/replacement government officials from native born colonists until such time as 75% of the government is native-born. Non-Native born people may be hired as officials thereafter, so long as at least 75% of the government is native-born."