- Location
- Somewhere, Maybe
[X] Enjou
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
- Location
- Berkeley
[X] Enjou
@Enjou
Great compromise proposal. I would prefer it if we could add some language on the defensive level that the council has the power to increase the minimum defensive levels of a specific colony on the recommendation of the security council or the like. The idea would be to make sure that if we end up with a colony that is a defensive liability despite the precautions we've taken, we can require that specific colony to improve without changing general policy.
@Enjou
Great compromise proposal. I would prefer it if we could add some language on the defensive level that the council has the power to increase the minimum defensive levels of a specific colony on the recommendation of the security council or the like. The idea would be to make sure that if we end up with a colony that is a defensive liability despite the precautions we've taken, we can require that specific colony to improve without changing general policy.
Actually, Avernus is a good example of the problem with this native born requirement, and completely explains why in character Avernus would be completely opposed to such a requirement.
What percentage of our government is native born?
Of our major government figures, how many are native born? One out of 14. Maybe two if you count Saren.
Rotbart
Caroline
Drago
Parnell
Henry
Klovis-Ultan
Fred Haward
Jane
Tranth
Britton
Saren (maybe counts as native born)
Saint Lin
Ridcully
Xavier (native born)
Caroline
Drago
Parnell
Henry
Klovis-Ultan
Fred Haward
Jane
Tranth
Britton
Saren (maybe counts as native born)
Saint Lin
Ridcully
Xavier (native born)
Now imagine that we were suddenly told that we had to replace 70% of our staff with younger, less experienced, lower stats.
That's the pragmatic cost of such a draconian requirement.
We would never accept such a requirement for Avernus. Why would we want to impose it on someone else?
I've already pointed to the philosophical cost, that of essentially assuming parents of disloyalty. We'd essentially be assuring that every colony would have a very large population of second class citizens. And not just any set of citizens, but the founders who did all the hard work of establishing the colony in the first place.
A recipe for resentment and disaster.
And that doesn't address the fact that this would create a tradition of disenfranchising immigrants, resulting in a continuing division between the populations of the different systems.
It's just bad mojo all around.
Now maybe we could do something like the US constitution, and require the Governor to be someone that is either a native born or living on the colony at the time of independence.
If people want that, I could add that in. That would be a more reasonable requirement, and wouldn't shut out the founding generation, but also prevent any shenanigans to try and keep the colony forever under the thumb of the colonizer.
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Beyogi
and a fairy
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah sounds like a good idea.
There's also very little reason why the governing personel should feel like obeying their coloniser when they're in power of an independent nation.
I could agree to that, although it's likely to happen anyway.
Agreed, will add this.
I must continue to oppose this. It is morally indefensible and will be certain to lead to violent civil war on the colonies.
I mean seriously, how can everyone be so blind to this.
Imagine you join a colony, and you spend the next 100 years of your life doing all the work of establishing this colony. Then, suddenly, you get fired from your job, replaced by a younger inferior worker, and have to spend the next 300 years of your life as a second class citizen.
How do you not feel resentment in such a case?
How does this not cause enormous problems?
Excuse me? I'm the one pointing out the truth here. And everyone is just ignoring it.
It simply cannot be morally justified, it cannot be pragmatically justified, and it doesn't support our long term goals of greater unity in the Trust.
It's a law based on an irrational fear and a bigotry against people based on their birth location. Hell, it's the exact same motivation that has people voting for Donald Trump.
Thanks for responding to my concerns and... oh wait, this is just ignoring them and trying to sway the vote with threats of GM displeasure...
1: On the defensive measure I just vote for the compromise. Enjou proposes a new compromise that actually greatly increases the total defensive requirements.
2: Enjou votes for kicking out 75% of the founders of the colony from the government and replacing them with native born people. I say that's crazy and argue against it.
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Updated my vote to include the Education system requirements proposed by Enjou, and to add the natural born citizen (or resident at time of independence) requirement for the Governor.
- Location
- The Void
[X] Elder Haman
- Location
- Spain
@Enjou You may want to revise your ideas of being born or not being born for beinf on the goverment , Elder Haman has made very good remarks here...
[X] Elder Haman
[X] Elder Haman
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I made a post responding to your concerns earlier, tagging you on it.
One of the main points I made is that you are failing to take into account that the government is more than just the heads of state, and that the number of government positions will grow as the colony does - it takes a lot more people to run an established colony with billions of people than it does a starting colony of a hundred million. The law proposed doesn't mandate replacing the people at the top, but it does ensure that as the colony grows more and more of the positions that open up due to growth are given to locals rather than people imported by the colonizer. All they have to do is start hiring locally, then promoting from within over time, and they should be able to meet the requirements.
Another thing you're mistaken about is that someone who is working to establish the colony and has lost their job is necessarily stuck there for the rest of their days. Quite the contrary. If they've done a good job, then the colonizer will likely want to employ them in a new colonization effort, which is likely to be an option for them given that as I also mentioned civil servants in the Imperium are often discouraged from getting married and having children, so they wouldn't necessarily have established roots. And they can also offer their experience to other worlds looking to make colonies. And there's nothing in the law stopping the colony from rehiring them once independence is achieved. Or the person might simply move back to the colonizer's world. It's not like they have no options.
You are also I think grossly overstating the matter of experience. The people recruited locally who manage to find their way into top positions will have decades of experience by the time they get there, and will have proven themselves by working their way up the ranks. That's hardly inexperienced.
As far as the matter of GM "displeasure" goes, I said nothing about that. I said he disagree with your reasoning, which means he's likely going to apply that disagreement to the mindsets of the Council members he's driving.
As far as the requirement for the Planetary Governor being natural born, that position is actually one of the least likely to need it as the Planetary Governor would be the least likely to want the colonizer to continue exploiting the colony, especially if the position is hereditary. A Governor benefits more from having full control of his colony, not from being a puppet for the colonizer.
- Location
- not telling
I call complete bullshit on this whole argument. The whole point is that the guys who start up the colonies are to train up replacements that arn't tried back to the colonizers. This stops the kind of system gaming were, lets say Midgard, drops 100k people led by lower ranking people in their administration and PDF as leaders on 50 worlds. Those leaders are choosen by being willing to follow whatever Midgard wants done are they get their "independence". Yes they might be "better" at the job but what we care about isn't want is necessaryly best for the colonies or even the first wave of leaders but the balance of power in the Trust. We do not want the colonies leadership the be stuff full of people who owe favors to the colonizers. As for the first wave guys, that's what a good retirement and avisury positions are for. If the colony would be so screwed by not having the first generation in charge then that group has failed to do a proper job of training their subordinates.
If it happens naturally, then why the requirement? Of course it won't happen naturally, that's why people are trying to make it a law.
Two thirds of the government is not a small matter when colonization has just closed. It will explicitly require hiring people based on a quota and not based on merit.
And I just pointed out that on Avernus the current percentage of the secondary levels of military leadership is 25% native born. This after 90 years on a death world with high levels of attrition.
Just ask the question: Would you be willing to replace 50% of our military generals just to achieve a 75% native born requirement, even if that means lower stats?
When someone works hard to build a home, and then someone comes and says "nope, you were born in the wrong place so you can't keep the fruit of your labor." Does the offer to say "Oh you can go build a new house somewhere else" sound fair?
And note that they are planning to take that home away from you too, and send you on to yet another colony to slave away.
Founding a colony means enduring hardship. It means giving up a lot of the benefits on an older more mature world. Then, just as things have gotten developed, and it's time to enjoy the fruits on one's labor, you take it away.
It's unjust.
If they prove themselves and can work themselves up the ranks, then why do they need a quota?
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Who cares if the Midgard colonies are specially friendly to Midgard. That's to be expected.
That's why I don't think colonies should get a seat on the High Council on independence. We aren't supporting that. But as long as Midgard doesn't get to stack the High Council, why should we care that Midgard now has a dozen friends? Midgard is our friend too, and thus Midgard having friends means we have more friends. It's win win for everyone.
The only problem here is to prevent abuse of the colony by a colonizer. And frankly, I don't think that's too much of a worry. We've implanted enough safeguards elsewhere that we don't need to go all nativist.
- Location
- not telling
@Elder Haman, your whole postion is based on the leadership of the colony wanting what is best for that colony and not being in that position because the colonizers stuffed it full with dudes who owe them big. What the local born thing is for is so that we can garenty that the colonies leadership isn't in the colonizers pockets.
As I mentioned in my other post a colonizer who wants to exploit a colony could remain in de facto control after independence is achieved by having the entire government be imported and explicitly loyal to them rather than the colony. They could even ensure a regular rotation to ensure the loyalty stays fresh. Given that as I've said Imperial culture has high ranking civil servants often discouraged from marrying and having children, they won't necessarily grow the roots that bind them to the colony that you think they will.
Yes, at the Lt. General level. But you are aware that there are levels before that, and given the vast amount of military expansion we have done the vast majority of those levels will be filled with those who have been born since the colony was founded, right? So if Avernus was needed to meet the requirement, it will have already done so.
No, but the law doesn't mandate that 50% of the generals be replaced, no does it? It doesn't mandate you change the heads of your Administratum. It only mandates that some X% of your Administratum (which should grow and add enough positions to far exceed the initial number over time) be recruited from the locals.
Unless the colony's growth is absolute shit (in which case the people in charge are likely doing a bad job anyways) it's quite likely you won't have to remove a single official. And if people do need replacing, it will be the least competent among them.
When someone works hard to build a home, and then someone comes and says "nope, you were born in the wrong place so you can't keep the fruit of your labor." Does the offer to say "Oh you can go build a new house somewhere else" sound fair?
And note that they are planning to take that home away from you too, and send you on to yet another colony to slave away.
Founding a colony means enduring hardship. It means giving up a lot of the benefits on an older more mature world. Then, just as things have gotten developed, and it's time to enjoy the fruits on ones labor, you take it away.
It's unjust. As anyone could see if you weren't desperate to justify a position.
First off, they'd be taking the job knowing that they might eventually be replaced, if they even have to be replaced at all. And none of the Nine Worlds have slavery, aside from Midgard as punishment for a crime, so it's not like anyone is forced to take the position. As such, the colonizer might make lucrative offers to get someone to go and help run a colonial government, such as promises of a nice cushy job back on the homeworld and a good pension once the duties have been fulfilled or marriage into a noble family or any number of things. And again, you're approaching this from the perspective that these officials are going to settle down, marry, have children, and root themselves down - many, even most of them, won't due to the culture we're dealing with. Hell, many of those people might like the notion of starting a new colony again once they're done. (and it's hardly as rough and tumble as you make it out to be, given the level of technology at play and most colonies not being Death Worlds)
Also, as far as enjoying the fruits of labor goes, given the growth rate of Avernus any colony that is run with anything remotely approaching competence will see it being a prosperous place for decades before independence is achieved. Perfect morale was achieved on a Death World before the Emperor died at the thirty eighth year after founding - almost any other colony is going to have a far easier time doing that due to the lack of killer flora and fauna. That's decades of one's life to enjoy the colony, and they could return to that developed homeworld later on if they want - something that anyone near the top of the chain should be able to do, because of good pay.
And sure, maybe some people might get stiffed, but I don't think it'll be nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.
HanEmpire
Delicious
Does the local government have to lay off the initial colonists in order to bring in local born politicians though?
Could we have the government gradually expand in scope and size until it meets the native-born quota?
In any case I've changed my mind (again) since I believe that anyone who goes in with prior notice that their job will be temporary at most have no ground to complain when that job ends.
[X] Enjou
Could we have the government gradually expand in scope and size until it meets the native-born quota?
In any case I've changed my mind (again) since I believe that anyone who goes in with prior notice that their job will be temporary at most have no ground to complain when that job ends.
[X] Enjou
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- Location
- Somewhere, Maybe
[X] Abstain
There's too many good arguments one way or the other for me to decide, so I'd like to rescind my vote. I'm not sure if the vote-tally program will do that, so I'm appealing to whoever runs it to make a note that my vote is explicitly stated to be an Abstention rather than for either side.
There's too many good arguments one way or the other for me to decide, so I'd like to rescind my vote. I'm not sure if the vote-tally program will do that, so I'm appealing to whoever runs it to make a note that my vote is explicitly stated to be an Abstention rather than for either side.
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Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
You can just delete your original vote if you want to abstain.
@durin - Can you tell us what the current levels of support for each of the plans presented would get? That way we can make adjustments if needed to get to a majority, like when we did it with the Constitution.
Current tally.
It counts your vote as Abstain.
Do note that if you have a preference on the military option you can vote for that exclusively without voting for the other thing. Just copy the relevant portions and vote for that. It'll count correctly in the final tally, which can be done by block rather than by plan.
Current tally.
Vote Tally : Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) | Page 1411 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.6.0
[X] Defences: Strengthened Compromise Plan
[X] Middle Ground Protections
[X] Additional Protection 1: After fifty years, at least 75% of the PDF being recruited from that point should be from the local population.
[X] Additional Protection 2: After twenty years, a basic level of universal education must be available to the population. At fifty years, some level of higher education must be made available. The Low Council will spend some time over the next ten years working with the educational institutions of the Imperial Trust to establish a few proposals for the minimum curriculum, which will be voted upon by the High Council in ten years.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
[X] Propose that each colony shall be required to give no more than half of its tax income to the colonizer, a number that cannot exceed ten percent of its total income. Propose that within a decade of the colony forming it shall have a local government made up entirely of people living on the colony. Propose that the Governor of an independent colony must be a natural born citizen, or residing on the colony at the time of independence. Propose that within twenty years there must be a basic education system, and that withing sixty years a higher education system. Propose that the local government should have the right to present petitions to the High Council and that the High Council shall have the right to intervene in any colony with a two thirds vote.
-[X] Point out that requirements for native born government leaders would replace the founding generation with their children. Thereby replacing the more experienced and wise with young and inexperienced leaders. Furthermore it would create hostility between parents and children. Nor do you think the benefits particularly great. Point out that while you still have great affection for your birth planet of Gallium, you would not sacrifice Avernus for Gallium. Similarly, you do not believe that the parents of the children of the colony are going to sacrifice their children for the sake of their colonizer. While there surely will be a long lasting loyalty to their colonizer, it will be as an adult child to their parent, and not as a slave or servant. Does a person sacrifice their child for the sake of their parent? The native born proposal is based on an assumption of conflict that should not be assumed to exist within a family. In being imposed it will create the very conflict that is assumes.
-[X] On the subject of the High Council interfering in a colony, point out that it will be a significant action, and should only take place under egregious circumstances. To minimize hostility from the colonizer, it would be better to require a significant portion of the Imperial Trust to take such a controversial step.
No. of Votes: 12
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Abstain
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 29
##### NetTally 1.6.0
[X] Defences: Strengthened Compromise Plan
[X] Middle Ground Protections
[X] Additional Protection 1: After fifty years, at least 75% of the PDF being recruited from that point should be from the local population.
[X] Additional Protection 2: After twenty years, a basic level of universal education must be available to the population. At fifty years, some level of higher education must be made available. The Low Council will spend some time over the next ten years working with the educational institutions of the Imperial Trust to establish a few proposals for the minimum curriculum, which will be voted upon by the High Council in ten years.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
[X] Propose that each colony shall be required to give no more than half of its tax income to the colonizer, a number that cannot exceed ten percent of its total income. Propose that within a decade of the colony forming it shall have a local government made up entirely of people living on the colony. Propose that the Governor of an independent colony must be a natural born citizen, or residing on the colony at the time of independence. Propose that within twenty years there must be a basic education system, and that withing sixty years a higher education system. Propose that the local government should have the right to present petitions to the High Council and that the High Council shall have the right to intervene in any colony with a two thirds vote.
-[X] Point out that requirements for native born government leaders would replace the founding generation with their children. Thereby replacing the more experienced and wise with young and inexperienced leaders. Furthermore it would create hostility between parents and children. Nor do you think the benefits particularly great. Point out that while you still have great affection for your birth planet of Gallium, you would not sacrifice Avernus for Gallium. Similarly, you do not believe that the parents of the children of the colony are going to sacrifice their children for the sake of their colonizer. While there surely will be a long lasting loyalty to their colonizer, it will be as an adult child to their parent, and not as a slave or servant. Does a person sacrifice their child for the sake of their parent? The native born proposal is based on an assumption of conflict that should not be assumed to exist within a family. In being imposed it will create the very conflict that is assumes.
-[X] On the subject of the High Council interfering in a colony, point out that it will be a significant action, and should only take place under egregious circumstances. To minimize hostility from the colonizer, it would be better to require a significant portion of the Imperial Trust to take such a controversial step.
No. of Votes: 12
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Abstain
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 29
It counts your vote as Abstain.
Do note that if you have a preference on the military option you can vote for that exclusively without voting for the other thing. Just copy the relevant portions and vote for that. It'll count correctly in the final tally, which can be done by block rather than by plan.
- Location
- Somewhere, Maybe
^^ Alright. I think I'll leave mine up there as an official vote, tho, because quite honestly, I'm not really that well-informed as to the rest of the issues. The one issue I'm well-informed on is the one that I can't make up my mind about. :lol
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
currently Defences: Strengthened Compromise Plan and both additional compromises will immediately get a majority@durin - Can you tell us what the current levels of support for each of the plans presented would get? That way we can make adjustments if needed to get to a majority, like when we did it with the Constitution.
Current tally.
Vote Tally : Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) | Page 1411 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.6.0
[X] Defences: Strengthened Compromise Plan
[X] Middle Ground Protections
[X] Additional Protection 1: After fifty years, at least 75% of the PDF being recruited from that point should be from the local population.
[X] Additional Protection 2: After twenty years, a basic level of universal education must be available to the population. At fifty years, some level of higher education must be made available. The Low Council will spend some time over the next ten years working with the educational institutions of the Imperial Trust to establish a few proposals for the minimum curriculum, which will be voted upon by the High Council in ten years.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
[X] Propose that each colony shall be required to give no more than half of its tax income to the colonizer, a number that cannot exceed ten percent of its total income. Propose that within a decade of the colony forming it shall have a local government made up entirely of people living on the colony. Propose that the Governor of an independent colony must be a natural born citizen, or residing on the colony at the time of independence. Propose that within twenty years there must be a basic education system, and that withing sixty years a higher education system. Propose that the local government should have the right to present petitions to the High Council and that the High Council shall have the right to intervene in any colony with a two thirds vote.
-[X] Point out that requirements for native born government leaders would replace the founding generation with their children. Thereby replacing the more experienced and wise with young and inexperienced leaders. Furthermore it would create hostility between parents and children. Nor do you think the benefits particularly great. Point out that while you still have great affection for your birth planet of Gallium, you would not sacrifice Avernus for Gallium. Similarly, you do not believe that the parents of the children of the colony are going to sacrifice their children for the sake of their colonizer. While there surely will be a long lasting loyalty to their colonizer, it will be as an adult child to their parent, and not as a slave or servant. Does a person sacrifice their child for the sake of their parent? The native born proposal is based on an assumption of conflict that should not be assumed to exist within a family. In being imposed it will create the very conflict that is assumes.
-[X] On the subject of the High Council interfering in a colony, point out that it will be a significant action, and should only take place under egregious circumstances. To minimize hostility from the colonizer, it would be better to require a significant portion of the Imperial Trust to take such a controversial step.
No. of Votes: 12
[X] Support the compromise position put forward by Governor-General Aelfric
-[X] Point out that each proposal is built around the historical experiences of the various systems about what worked best for them. Each approach is valid, but here we are only setting the minimum requirements. It's quite probable that many colonizers will improve their colony's defenses beyond this minimum. Let us pick the compromise position, and then each colonizer can extend those defenses in whichever way they think best.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Abstain
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 29
It counts your vote as Abstain.
Do note that if you have a preference on the military option you can vote for that exclusively without voting for the other thing. Just copy the relevant portions and vote for that. It'll count correctly in the final tally, which can be done by block rather than by plan.
Middle Ground Protections will also immediately get a majority, if only by 1
Eldar Hamans proposal will get the support of Governor Olaf, Lord Marshal Sigud, Inquisitor Yinn and Admiral Freyrm meaning that you will need to convince one other High Councilor to vote for it