The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Asgard has Super Heavy Orbital Defenses, same as us. Svartalfheim and Alfheim both have Heavy Orbital Defenses. Jountheim and Muspelheim have Medium Defenses.

So I think we ought to build shipyards in all these systems.

Dispersal is needed.

Our refusal to spend the money and effort to do this is why we are having so many problems right now.

We need to get started on this and stop putting it off as "too hard."

Asgard is the only one whose defenses might be sufficient to merit the investment - Heavy and Medium defenses aren't enough to protect the significant investment in orbital industry that a Large Shipyard represents. Remember that the standard thing that tends to happen during any significant invasion is that the invaders plow their way through the orbital defenses, wreck up the orbital industry, and then land their forces.

The other problem comes in that we have a lack of qualified labor to even begin this project. It would take 25 years for Avernus to make a Large Shipyard, and word of durin is that it'd take more for others.

Rather than waste a sound out, how about we just go to the council meeting and first hear out what the other worlds are planning on doing and what their own status is first?

To all voting to upgrade the defences now:

We are beeing warned that we don't have enough Material. Starting the upgrade will eat up all of our droduction and half our current stockpile before the other projects are factored in.

We may only be able to pay for it in theory! In Practice we will run a serve shortage and hinder all other projects!

What's being voted on isn't upgrading ALL of the defenses, now, it's the start of the long term project of upgrading all of the planet's defenses by starting with two of our hives. The actual maintenance costs for upgrading these two cities is actually affordable. By the time it's completed we'll also have expanded our factories again to increase our Material output, and there aren't any projects of comparable cost currently available. We also have a council meeting at the end of this turn, and we can arrange to buy Material from Muspelheim and/or Svartalfheim during the trade deal.


[X] King of Battle
-[X] Expedite: King of Battle

You can't expedite this. This is a recruitment action. Expedite can only be used on something that involves construction of buildings or ships or things like that.

[X] Tutor Syr
-[X] Double Down: Tutor Syr

You can't double down on this. The cost is Free, and Double Down means "spend twice as many resources on it", so you can't double nothing.
 
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To all voting to upgrade the defences now:

We are beeing warned that we don't have enough Material. Starting the upgrade will eat up all of our droduction and half our current stockpile before the other projects are factored in.

We may only be able to pay for it in theory! In Practice we will run a serve shortage and hinder all other projects!
In practice we only have 1 void next turn which with admin and martial are the three categories that take the most material. Even if we expedite defense stations next turn we will have a net profit. Also martial actions will be locked up for several turns and we only have one admin before the enlarge factories finish which we could chose ed reform or admin reorg both of which are cheap in terms of material

@Enjou what do you think of changing the light cruiser to cruiser as we could use more cap ships and have the escorts for numbers
 
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Guys, I have a question. Headmaster Ridcully's Cheating action listed in the Telepathica section mentions that it can reduce the difficulty of the Examine Sub-Systems or Examine Any on the Well of Urd. Could that Cheating action be used to improve the odds for the Starship Construction Techniques?

Are there any modifiers to the base chance of success for the Telepathica options?

Can we Double Down more than once? For example, if we want to Examine Starship Construction Technologies and use the Cheating option, can we Double Down on the Examine option and on the Cheating option?
 
Guys, I have a question. Headmaster Ridcully's Cheating action listed in the Telepathica section mentions that it can reduce the difficulty of the Examine Sub-Systems or Examine Any on the Well of Urd. Could that Cheating action be used to improve the odds for the Starship Construction Techniques?

Are there any modifiers to the base chance of success for the Telepathica options?

Can we Double Down more than once? For example, if we want to Examine Starship Construction Technologies and use the Cheating option, can we Double Down on the Examine option and on the Cheating option?

1. Yes, we can use Cheating on that, but it wouldn't improve the chances much since it only adds 1% per five points of success.
2. Yes, there are modifiers, based on Ridcully's control and he'd use the Black Crystal Jewelry.
3. We can only double down once per turn.

We considered doing the construction technology, but we'd like to get some more bonuses before we try since the chances are so low and failure reduces the chance for future attempts.
 
1. Yes, we can use Cheating on that, but it wouldn't improve the chances much since it only adds 1% per five points of success.
2. Yes, there are modifiers, based on Ridcully's control and he'd use the Black Crystal Jewelry.
3. We can only double down once per turn.

We considered doing the construction technology, but we'd like to get some more bonuses before we try since the chances are so low and failure reduces the chance for future attempts.

Fair enough - I wasn't sure if we could double-sip on the Doubling Down. Any idea how we could generate bonuses for the Construction Technology? Do you think examining ships from the Graveyard could give a bonus to that?
 
Fair enough - I wasn't sure if we could double-sip on the Doubling Down. Any idea how we could generate bonuses for the Construction Technology? Do you think examining ships from the Graveyard could give a bonus to that?

Tranth increasing his learning bonus would help. Increased understanding of ships might help as well. The next upgrade for our Forge Temples might help as well. Additional examples of the technology would certainly help, if we could somehow get our hands on it.
 
[X] Enjou

Ok, I have a question. Is there any action we can undertake for Tranth to boost the skill of the STC College?
 
Nobody's freaking out that Syr nearly died to a deadly BlinkSpider?! :wtf:

Avernus

To all voting to upgrade the defences now:

We are beeing warned that we don't have enough Material. Starting the upgrade will eat up all of our droduction and half our current stockpile before the other projects are factored in.

We may only be able to pay for it in theory! In Practice we will run a serve shortage and hinder all other projects!

Indeed this is why I am not voting to upgrade defenses.

@Enjou Please explain how we are going to afford anything else that requires large amounts of material (like Void actions) if we expand Defenses this turn. Do you have a plan for the next three turns that won't take up a lot of material?

Asgard is the only one whose defenses might be sufficient to merit the investment - Heavy and Medium defenses aren't enough to protect the significant investment in orbital industry that a Large Shipyard represents. Remember that the standard thing that tends to happen during any significant invasion is that the invaders plow their way through the orbital defenses, wreck up the orbital industry, and then land their forces.

The other problem comes in that we have a lack of qualified labor to even begin this project. It would take 25 years for Avernus to make a Large Shipyard, and word of durin is that it'd take more for others.

Rather than waste a sound out, how about we just go to the council meeting and first hear out what the other worlds are planning on doing and what their own status is first?

Because this is what Sound Out is for, to figure out what the others are thinking before we get to the council. How much benefit is another sound out on Colonization? You're just voting for it as a placeholder.

And since it will take 5 years to build a small shipyards, and 25 years to build large ones we will have plenty of time to improve defenses.

Start by building a small shipyard at Asgard. Rotate through all the other systems. Then build another small shipyard at Asgard. Continue until eventually we have large shipyard.

Everyone keeps ignoring this problem because people don't want to long term investment, but it is a serious problem.

Also, dispersion has it's own strength. Even if the shipyard at say... Alfheim was destroyed, we would still have small shipyards at the other systems.

The point is that we are going to lose systems ability to support ship building from time to time, and we need to disperse the ability to build ships. Failure to do so is only going to cause more crisis like currently.
 
@Enjou, we can't do the upgrade city defenses actions right now. Didn't realize that that option drains ~700 million materials per year. Our material income is ~300 million at best. We'll run out in a few years.
 
@Enjou, we can't do the upgrade city defenses actions right now. Didn't realize that that option drains ~700 million materials per year. Our material income is ~300 million at best. We'll run out in a few years.
It is a one time cost and we have 900 mil in reserve. After this turn we would have 500 mil left. Next turn we would likely add 100 to 200 mil to our reserve as most of the mat heavy actions will be locked. I put an overview up earlier and will do a more comprehensive one later today of mat expenditures.

Also the per year is upkeep once it is finished like all projets and is 6 mil a year. I have not seen a project that we pay each year all have been upfront on their costs
 
@Enjou Please explain how we are going to afford anything else that requires large amounts of material (like Void actions) if we expand Defenses this turn. Do you have a plan for the next three turns that won't take up a lot of material?

I suggest you look at the actual prices of all the other stuff available. The largest possible expense is the Defense Stations, and those cost 72,580,000 Material each. There are no other projects with a higher cost, and small shipyards cost 21,600,000 Material each as the next most expensive project in terms of Material. (and we're likely to take that action over building the Defense Stations)

This set of upgrades will take a little over half of this year's available material, but after this year most of what we produce will go into our reserves.

We are expanding our factories again, and we can buy Material as part of our upcoming trade deals as well.

@Enjou, we can't do the upgrade city defenses actions right now. Didn't realize that that option drains ~700 million materials per year. Our material income is ~300 million at best. We'll run out in a few years.

No, it doesn't drain 700 million material per year. The costs are as such:

Cost: 702,700,000 Thrones, 683,200,000 Material, 644,200,000 Metal, 144,900,000 Promethium, 29,280 Advanced Material.
Upkeep per year: 7,027,200 Thrones, 6,832,000 Material, 6,551,600 Metal, 1,449,360 Promethium, 293 Advanced Material.

The first one is the one time cost for the project like it always is - we expend that amount once, and we don't pay that again. The second one is the cost of upkeep once the project is completed. We can afford it.
 
Why does everyone like Enjou's plan so much? My main gripe is that it's spending a ton of manpower and materials the military while ignoring the most cost effective option.
Infantry is the queen of battle. Artillery is the King. We all know what the King does to the Queen.
 
Why does everyone like Enjou's plan so much? My main gripe is that it's spending a ton of manpower and materials the military while ignoring the most cost effective option.
Infantry is the queen of battle. Artillery is the King. We all know what the King does to the Queen.

Gets nagged on and henpecked, then stabbed in the back because he thought he was marrying an innocent, nubile maiden and instead ended up with basically pure evil?

That's what Galavant tells me, anyway.
 
Why does everyone like Enjou's plan so much? My main gripe is that it's spending a ton of manpower and materials the military while ignoring the most cost effective option.
Infantry is the queen of battle. Artillery is the King. We all know what the King does to the Queen.

Siege Infantry Brigades each have 100,000 men and lots of artillery. Each brigade has 160 Basilisks. I'm fairly certain we end up building more artillery with Siege Infantry than we do by building Artillery Regiments.

That said, I could be convinced to switch the Scout Armor action to King of Battle if enough people think I should.
 
Because this is what Sound Out is for, to figure out what the others are thinking before we get to the council. How much benefit is another sound out on Colonization? You're just voting for it as a placeholder.

The other reason we sound out things is also so that we can politic before the council meeting so that we can change minds if needed, like with the Quartok. Colonization isn't likely to be dealt with this meeting since Vanaheim, which is the planet that needs to colonize a resourcing action, so I don't mind using the action for that here.

This isn't an issue we need to politic on. We can find out what the other systems are doing, what their current state is regarding their orbital capabilities, etc. at the council meeting and come up with a proposal of some sort.

And since it will take 5 years to build a small shipyards, and 25 years to build large ones we will have plenty of time to improve defenses.

Start by building a small shipyard at Asgard. Rotate through all the other systems. Then build another small shipyard at Asgard. Continue until eventually we have large shipyard.

Everyone keeps ignoring this problem because people don't want to long term investment, but it is a serious problem.

Also, dispersion has it's own strength. Even if the shipyard at say... Alfheim was destroyed, we would still have small shipyards at the other systems.

The point is that we are going to lose systems ability to support ship building from time to time, and we need to disperse the ability to build ships. Failure to do so is only going to cause more crisis like currently.

Don't misunderstand me - I get the potential benefits of dispersion. The problem here is that sounding out regarding "Large Shipyards In Every System" is just not a feasible goal and I'm very certain the other systems will wonder what the fuck we're smoking if we ask. Even Small Shipyards isn't really feasible at this time, though that might get a better reaction.

With Vanaheim behind the Warp Storm, Avernus is the only planet as far as I can tell that has any significant investment in its orbital industry, and all of our guys are busy working on the projects in our own system. All of the other planets had to have Vanaheim build their defenses. They don't yet have the necessary workforce to do so on their own. Another issue you're not considering is whether or not the planets have the necessary population to even create the necessary workforce - Asgard has only 64.1 Million people, Muspelheim 58 Million, and Niflheim 12.5 Million (last we checked, but they've been behind a Warp Storm for a while). I imagine shipyards take a lot of people to work, given this is 40k, so that could be a problem. Asgard may have the defenses needed for keeping their yards secure, but they may only have the capacity to maintain a small one.

IMO we would be better off focusing on solving our labor problem first, and then focusing on one or two systems to build some orbital industry at rather than trying to build up orbital industry in every system. We will get Large Shipyards built in them much faster if we go with that option, and still have the benefits of having dispersed some of the labor.
 
[X] Vanquishers: Helltroopers
[X] Vanquishers: Specialists
[X] Personal Attention: More Siege Infantry
[X] Personal Attention: Scout Regiment: Planning

[X] Underground Railways: Expand
[X] Enlarge Factories: Avernus
-[X] Expedite: Enlarge Factories: Avernus

[X] Sound Out (Colonization)
[X] Request Information (Asgard's Mines)

[X] Tutor Syr
[X] Build Psyker Hunter Academies: All

[X] Survey Ship Graveyard: Light Cruisers
[X] Survey Ship Graveyard: Escorts

[X] Good Deeds (Asgard)

[X] Research (Congregation Asps): Part Two
-[X] Double Down: Research (Congregation Asps): Part Two

[X] Spend Time With Family
[X] Tutor Syr (Combat)
 
[X] Elder Haman

I think we need to look at making every single system self-sufficient to the extent that they can meet all their basic needs. Maintaining and having a space fleet is one of them.

The situation has changed too dramatically and humanity doesn't have the means anymore to centralize power. There will be planets with their own specialization still, but if there is a lack on any system where if they get cut by a Warp Storm for a indefinite amount of time the place is assured to collapse it needs to be fixed.

Currently not having a fleet endangers every system. I might not be necessary a Large Shipyard in every system, but Midgard, Jotunheim, and Muspleheim (cause of its metal income) should have a large one with the rest getting a smaller shipyard.
 
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@Enjou
I would prefer the two year scout action so that we can do naval academy when it finishes as we will have two void actions as well that turn and this way we still can spend time with family. I would like to change the ship graveyard to cruisers so we can repair some capital ships in case vanheim is behind a warp storm for a while. Escorts are good for boosting numbers.

@Elder Haman a thought on your sound out idea is instead to setup a shipyard construction fund and team with the mission statement to construct shipyards, small ones first, at planets that do not have any and that can maintain one. Also once that initial wave is done keep on upgrading the planets with the smallest number of shipyards to the point they feel they can mantain one.
 
The idea of decentralizing ship production to that extent is absolutely insane. Not only are we talking around half a century as an optimistic estimate to get a single large shipyard up for most of the planets, the vast majority of our planets have neither the manpower to crew the facilities not the warships they build. It's so fundamentally inefficient to decentralize ship building; one of the most complex and manpower intensive heavy industries on Earth, across several planets who have neither the men or the wealth to support hem on their own. You can't demand a small fishing village in Maine to produce warships alongside Norfolk. By distributing production, not only would you drastically lower the efficiency of expanding our shipbuilding, you'd drastically limit the amount of large scale shipbuilding. Decentralizing complex, skill intensive, manpower intensive, costly, and vulnerable industry is utter nonsense.

Maybe a singular small shipyard once their orbital defenses are at a certain level but anything more than that is nothing less than self sabotage. Yes, warp storms are scary, yes losing the majority of our shipbuilding temporarily is bad. But that doesn't mean throwing heavy industry into an unproductive black hole in a desperate attempt to delude ourselves into security is the answer. Even if we did somehow manage a large shipyard over each planet, we'd still have no super capital production if Vanaheim gets cut off. So that expensive security blanket only marginally mitigates the issue in a best case scenario, and the lack of hard points to defend our industry means it's incredibly vulnerable to hit and run campaigns. We'd be trading one weakness for several other weaknesses while wasting exorbitant amounts of resources and time.
 
[X] Enjou
@Enjou only thing I can argue about is go for the artillery instead of scout armor ,It is more useful since the enemies we are to face are the orks and tyranids.
 
[X] Personal Attention: King of Battle
[X] Vanquishers: Helltroopers
[X] Personal Attention: More Siege Infantry
[X] Vanquishers: Specialists

[X] Administratum Reorganisation: Part Four
-[X] Double Down: Administratum Reorganisation: Part Four
[X] Enlarge Factories: Avernus
-[X] Expedite: Enlarge Factories: Avernus

[X] Sound Out (Colonization)
[X] Request Information (Asgard's Mines)

[X] Tutor Syr
[X] Build Psyker Hunter Academies: All

[X] Survey Ship Graveyard: Light Cruisers
[X] Survey Ship Graveyard: Escorts

[X] Good Deeds (Asgard)

[X] Spend Time With Family
[X] Tutor Syr (Combat)
 
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