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The Dawi in Arda (Hiatus)

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Was wondering about the coal since we'll be burning 10-20 per turn depending on how much iron ore our mine produces.

[x] Plan: Please don't sell all our coal.
[X] Plan: Humble beginnings

HB is wood heavy but still seems well focused.

[X] Write-In your plan/offer for Gisilhari and his Royal Huskarls
"Ten years is not such a long time for the Dawi young King. We will guest you here in a surface hall for you and your Huscarls and even train them if you will accept the offer. For there are few that know the secrets to Urk slaying better than the Dawi, and we have long experience training Umgi. It will be hard, and it will be punishing. But I can assure you manling, that when you are of age by the measure of your people, you will be able to leave Karak Drekfurt with head held high and a warhost worthy of the name. If you and yours would earn further aid, your throng could do well to aid us in meeting other kingdoms of your people, so that we might trade and find common cause with them. You can fight beside us against any attack, and those that do, will be girded in proper Dawi Steel and bear arms of the same. You will not find better I am confident, even if you can find its match. For now, rest, and know that vengeance will be yours in a decade's time. I will also see to it that you are introduced to the Noldor and Lord Elrond their ruler. Perhaps he can be of further aid to you."

Easy add on for learning from the elves. It sounded like the king's people have already fled and he doesn't have enough healthy bodies to be able to repair and defend his castle or his territory generally. Attempting to clear out the enemy now and repair the castle would help him but then he'd be a boy king needing to do a lot and not having the time to understand how to do any of it right. I also don't want to throw dawi bodies at it right now or get locked into peacekeeping since we're already short of throngs.

It could be the right call for protecting his people but I'm not convinced it is. Hosting him as a ward sounds cheaper (in dawi bodies) and might give him the tools to be a good king as well as some resources to make a secure kingdom. Getting a few more merchants, farmers, guards for the walls, and flexing how cultured we are while doing so are nice as well.
 
KarmaA said:
Was wondering about the coal since we'll be burning 10-20 per turn depending on how much iron ore our mine produces.

[x] Plan: Please don't sell all our coal.
[X] Plan: Humble beginnings

HB is wood heavy but still seems well focused.

[X] Write-In your plan/offer for Gisilhari and his Royal Huskarls
"Ten years is not such a long time for the Dawi young King. We will guest you here in a surface hall for you and your Huscarls and even train them if you will accept the offer. For there are few that know the secrets to Urk slaying better than the Dawi, and we have long experience training Umgi. It will be hard, and it will be punishing. But I can assure you manling, that when you are of age by the measure of your people, you will be able to leave Karak Drekfurt with head held high and a warhost worthy of the name. If you and yours would earn further aid, your throng could do well to aid us in meeting other kingdoms of your people, so that we might trade and find common cause with them. You can fight beside us against any attack, and those that do, will be girded in proper Dawi Steel and bear arms of the same. You will not find better I am confident, even if you can find its match. For now, rest, and know that vengeance will be yours in a decade's time. I will also see to it that you are introduced to the Noldor and Lord Elrond their ruler. Perhaps he can be of further aid to you."

Easy add on for learning from the elves. It sounded like the king's people have already fled and he doesn't have enough healthy bodies to be able to repair and defend his castle or his territory generally. Attempting to clear out the enemy now and repair the castle would help him but then he'd be a boy king needing to do a lot and not having the time to understand how to do any of it right. I also don't want to throw dawi bodies at it right now or get locked into peacekeeping since we're already short of throngs.

It could be the right call for protecting his people but I'm not convinced it is. Hosting him as a ward sounds cheaper (in dawi bodies) and might give him the tools to be a good king as well as some resources to make a secure kingdom. Getting a few more merchants, farmers, guards for the walls, and flexing how cultured we are while doing so are nice as well.
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We could probably set something up to let any refugees come to us instead of sending our throngs to the plains, maybe set up some forward encampment. Maybe ask the elves to send fast riders to spread the information that if they can make it to the mountains they will find shelter with us or send out huskarls.
 
argenten said:
Plan had been adjusted for the increase in resources, got us the max Noldur grain since we'll be having more guests and having more variety of grain will work. got us some more wine for our guests and trade, and got us +1 farmer and +1 artisan dice so we'll have even more to go on.

In the future QM i would strongly suggest having everything at a 1 year price but mark the things like the dice with *may only be used for 5 year plans

So that we'd be able to just make plans per year and multiply them by 5 and keep things simple, having them be set to two different standards like they are now just complicated things unnecessarily
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Yeah next time trading comes around I'll change some of the set up to be more sensible.
 
Welp I tried, but looks like fearmongering on the idea of not keeping as much for ourselves as possible as well as spinning my plan in the worst way possible while i slept takes the day.

The goatmeat was literally a small amount to balance out the other purchases, it was nowhere *near* "selling it all"

Buying the steel would allow us to stagger the iron *and* second coal mine while also giving us another trade good when we get out market set up.

The coal was set up on a per year basis and left us not only with a large reserve but we'd still have plenty coming in as well from the secondary mine. So *that* is another deliberate and exaggerated spin there.

The wood is to we can build what we need to on the surface especially for the market, Eotheod, and our artillery and more, so being anble ro save on actions from having to gather that helps.

With the ale, *a lot is not all* and we wouldnt be selling more than 6 a year so we'd still have plenty coming in.

My plan is fine, gives us trading a good variety to get a good variety, and doesnt leave us running out of anything despite the claims otherwise.

Also, worst comes to worst. Charcoal works well for smelting iron too and allows us to eqse up on the coal
 
[x] Plan: Please don't sell all our coal.

[X] Write-In your plan/offer for Gisilhari and his Royal Huskarls
"Ten years is not such a long time for the Dawi young King. We will guest you here in a surface hall for you and your Huscarls and even train them if you will accept the offer. For there are few that know the secrets to Urk slaying better than the Dawi, and we have long experience training Umgi. It will be hard, and it will be punishing. But I can assure you manling, that when you are of age by the measure of your people, you will be able to leave Karak Drekfurt with head held high and a warhost worthy of the name. If you and yours would earn further aid, your throng could do well to aid us in meeting other kingdoms of your people, so that we might trade and find common cause with them. You can fight beside us against any attack, and those that do, will be girded in proper Dawi Steel and bear arms of the same. You will not find better I am confident, even if you can find its match. For now, rest, and know that vengeance will be yours in a decade's time. I will also see to it that you are introduced to the Noldor and Lord Elrond their ruler. Perhaps he can be of further aid to you."
 
the action to send our army out and make wood is free, nobody but jreengus uses it.
Very often people just leave lots of armies at home doing nothing.
And it does not impede us since our big hurdle is costruction.
Also the runelord to me is not a tradable workforce.
 
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argenten said:
Welp I tried, but looks like fearmongering on the idea of not keeping as much for ourselves as possible as well as spinning my plan in the worst way possible while i slept takes the day.
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I'm sorry if you feel like I was fearmongering but your proposed trade plan had me genuinely afraid that it would make future turn planning very difficult. The coal was the thing that had me most worried because it really is a big deal. The offer for it from the Noldor is abysmal meaning we'd always be far better off trading almost anything else instead of it, and while it looks like we have a big surplus right now the moment our forges go online that becomes a deficit. With your plan our reserve drops down to 20 and our surplus to 6. Completing the iron mine would make that a deficit of -14 and we'd need both coal mines to bring it back up to surplus of +6. And that is assuming we don't build any additional halls increasing our coal usage further.

For the ale I think it comes down to opinion on what is a reasonable amount to have in stock. I'd like to have at least 100 ale and food in the hold so we can easily weather any blights or sieges or dragon attacks or other problems without worrying.

For wood, like @Franksson said, we can send the throng out to gather it, and once the carpenter clan is done they can set up a harvesting site, it is a minor issue really and I wouldn't have worried about it if not for the coal thing.
 
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doesn't change that you deliberately fear mongered and exaggerated the 'risks' of my plan well beyond what actual danger there was, so your apology and 'heart' are meaningless as they do not actually come in an honest spirit.

Between the wood we would be getting, the steel, the coal we'd be getting from the second mine, and the fact that we'd have more options on what to do in the future, there is no fear of running out of fuel, let alone coal. Same for the goatsmeat and ale, we'd be able to make even more with the variety of food we'd have and the grain we'd be getting so that would actually allow us to increase production, so again, rather than actually look at our options and how to solve it, you just spun my plan in the worst light possible while I was asleep and created a false shortage panic.

Anyone complaining about the Runelord has yet to offer even a shred of a cohesive plan for what he would do that isn't "I don't want to share him because that would mean letting others benefit."

In short, nothing about my plan actually left us with a shortage, especially if we used the steel from the Noldor both as a trade good and to fashion our own things. In the future, please avoid such underhanded methods if that's possible.
 
@argenten I dont think you are being fair here. Both plans have merit. Trading less now doesn't mean we can't trade more later but we can't take the goods that we traded back.

As for the runelord we want to train an apprentice as well as making other runic gear or applying bigger runes to our holds. It's also a matter of strategy, I doubt the elves would share one of their mightiest weapons with us just because. We can still trade his services later if we really want to.

How will we make runic trinkets from the resources we get in your trade without our runelord? If we have an apprentice we can do both at a later point.

Edit: It's also unfair not to accept her genuine apology just because she doesn't agree with you
 
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My original post was my actual feelings and my apology was genuine. I'm not going to promise not to mention any issues I see with any plans as that is an important part of plan building in any quest.

For the runelord thing the reason I don't want to trade him is because I want him to start on his apprentice next turn. Once we revisit the trade in 5 years time I will be a lot more open to trading his services.
 
There's a big difference between mentioning issues and fabricating 'we will run out' and 'we are giving away all our ale and...' which is what you did, so yeah. I'm being quite fair in calling out the deliberate and thought out twisting of my plan into something it wasn't.

I would also like to point out you've actively ignored my points that we wouldn't have any shortages if we set things up properly with my plan. So claims that you're 'just pointing out issues' fall flat as the only way those issues exist is when we look at them in the way you described them.

We would have plenty of steel to work with initially, plenty of artisans and farmers to save the beardlings working on the surface as well as warsmiths coming in, so we could easily focus on mining, delving, sniffing and so on to ensure not only maintaining our production but expanding it.

The ale would be fine as we'd have more grain to make it from as well as different kinds so we'd have different brews. Food would be fine, wood would be there for building and charcoal. We'd be giving nothing away that we'd run out of.

Our runelord will get the apprentice and then...nothing that people have been able to give a concrete plan for, for the rest of the time, thus leaving us without the dice that trading him would have gotten us.
 
Adhoc vote count started by thefoolswriter on Feb 5, 2022 at 1:02 PM, finished with 162 posts and 19 votes.
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KarmaA said:
@argenten
Dude, you're literally landslide winning half the vote. Relax a little.
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Chipsy_21 said:
Argent you might want to cool down for a bit, that aggro isnt going to get anyone to change their mind.
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I don't expect people to change their mind, but I'm not okay with someone pretending my plan is something it wasn't and using fearmongering language to create the illusion that it was giving away several resources when the plan was specifically designed to make sure that not only were we not in debt, but we'd have a surpluss and ability to plan and shift things around as needed. I have the right to not only defend my plan but call out poor behavior and bad faith arguments when I see them.

@EVA-Saiyajin alternate of my plan was perfectly fine and did a good job of giving the nonerunelord sharing people a way to get what we need without him, but that got trashed too with the 'we're giving away too much' brush.
 
There is very little risk of giving away too much in any of the suggested plans because this is a five year plan that can be adjusted later if, if, the current state of things is unsustainable.

All we have to do is measure what we have now and what we are currently making. It's not hard.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
There is very little risk of giving away too much in any of the suggested plans because this is a five year plan that can be adjusted later if, if, the current state of things is unsustainable.

All we have to do is measure what we have now and what we are currently making. It's not hard.
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Pretty much, and with mine or your plan, we'd have a full stock of Noldor steel to work with so that we could make sure we had a healthy supply of charcoal, coal, and wood to work our iron with. We'd have plenty of wood to build things on the surface not only for our clans but the Umgi guests as well, we'd have plenty of food for everyone and a good variety too, wine for trading, a good deal more dice to to work with so we could snowball even more.

There is nothing about our plans that is remotely shortage creating unless we do exactly the wrong things and it's very easy to...not do that.
 
@argenten Narratively a lot of your arguments make sense. Mechanically a lot of the trading you originally proposed isn't doing a ton for us (the coal and steel quantity concerns specifically have merit, extra steel just sits there for now).

As far as the runesmith goes we don't have other runesmiths. We've got other farmers and warsmiths and nothing in the trade options screams urgent. Where training more on smiths and making runes for our people woul be my priority. You like different things, that's okay but make your case, use numbers to back it up, and don't attack the person.
 
argenten said:
Anyone complaining about the Runelord has yet to offer even a shred of a cohesive plan for what he would do that isn't "I don't want to share him because that would mean letting others benefit."
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I just don't get why you want to send him to the corner for five years when we have so much stuff left to do with him:
  • We don't have runic equipment for our king yet (other than the cape and the crown)
  • We haven't runed any of our fortifications (which, if the assault of the grobi proved anything is that we should definitely put that on our priority list)
  • We haven't runed the artillery that we are going to make (suffer not the Drak to live)
  • And most important of all: we haven't ensure the transmision of knowlegde so we don't depend on a single dawi
Nothing the Noldor offered is anywhere near as valuable as any of the things I mentioned

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KarmaA said:
@argenten Narratively a lot of your arguments make sense. Mechanically a lot of the trading you originally proposed isn't doing a ton for us (the coal and steel quantity concerns specifically have merit, extra steel just sits there for now).

As far as the runesmith goes we don't have other runesmiths. We've got other farmers and warsmiths and nothing in the trade options screams urgent. Where training more on smiths and making runes for our people woul be my priority. You like different things, that's okay but make your case, use numbers to back it up, and don't attack the person.
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Mechanically the steel is not only a quality good we can use but it is a valuable trade good as well, we will be able to make a good deal of profit selling it and the things we make from it in the Market. So if it's sitting there...we're doing something wrong. And that's also why I didn't include it in the 5 year plan, so we could work through that and then start making our own without Noldor steel keeping our stores bloated.

As for the dice, we don't have other runemsmiths...but we are still not doing anything with that runesmith that I can see that we can't do later other than maybe an apprentice and even then, that doesn't acknowledge the point that once we do get them, we wouldn't be getting anything specific or planned out.

I am using numbers and I have not been attacking anyone but have been focusing on the fact that my plan was fearmongered into something it wasn't and did not accept an apology that I did not feel was in good faith as their arguments were not. There have been plenty of people that either voted for something different or wanted different things, but when someone outright makes false claims about my plan that do not hold up to scrutiny, and then tries to pass it off as 'just mentioning issues', yeah I'm allowed to call out the bad faith arguments without 'attacking the person'.

Dimorphodon said:
I just don't get why you want to send him to the corner for five years when we have so much stuff left to do with him:
  • We don't have runic equipment for our king yet (other than the cape and the crown)
  • We haven't runed any of our fortifications (which, if the assault of the grave proved anything is that we should definitely put that on our priority list)
  • We haven't runed the artillery that we are going to make (suffer not the Drak to life)
  • And most important of all: we haven't ensure the transmision of knowlegde so we don't depend on a single dawi
Nothing the Noldor offered is anywhere near as valuable as any of the things I mentioned
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One, no one has mentioned these or have any specific plan, but at least you're giving *proper* examples of things we could do, so thank you for that :)

two: the stuff we get from the Runesmith is arguably more elvish helper dice, which allows us to get more done in terms of setting things up on either the surface *and* the mountain thanks to the dice the elves would free up. We would be able to get more fortifications done, be able to set up more farms, be able to create more surface industry buildings such as a lumberyard.

With those dice freed by elves working on the surface, we would be able to focus more on the things we need to build in the mountain proper. "Many hands make light work" as they say, and so we could get more mines found, set up, and more clanhalls built as well as engineers shop and other locations we need.

In short, yes the things you list are useful but not as useful as catching up on our hold being build from scratch.
 
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