Think of it as reducing the effectiveness of what would otherwise be an enemy auto-win action, then. After all, 0 HtH means this design's gonna be INCREDIBLY weak to grapples. I mean, I've previously mentioned the scenario of a charger running up and suplexing things to death, so can you blame me for taking precautions to attempt to minimize those shenanigans?
Like, there's a difference between "trying too hard to do everything and thus failing" and "oh god I've got a fatal weakness to this one attack method, I need countermeasures NOW" too.
For me, something like a teleportation Mod/Aug that can be used as a Reaction seems a much better investment. Hell, just something like a body electrification weapon that, when activated, would constantly deal damage to your Grappler regardless of if you win or lose would probably work a lot better. I'd be interested to see how Stunned enemies work in a Grapple. There's more options than using up the Arms Mod slot, which is probably going to be quite valuable real-estate.
And, if it's something Stun immune or so fast the teleport doesn't buy time, a +3 is probably not going to save you. Against a dedicated Grappler like Phenom, that bonus will likely be irrelevant, unless you have Jackal's luck. Dedicated Grapplers are very hard to outdo in their specialty, even for units like Jackal with some points in Str and HtH, without serious luck, so the winning move is not to play, IMO.
The real problem with the Arsenal Ship concept, as was explained to me, is that it's a whole lot of money and explosives being put in a relatively poorly-defended ship and over-specialized ship. The four Ohio SSGNs get around that problem by virtue of being sneaky subs and being conversions of existing hulls, not to mention they still have their torpedo tubes, while the Arleigh-Burke Class DDGs have many VLS cells, but still have an assortment of guns, two triple torpedo tubes, and the Flight IIAs have space for two Seahawk helicopters on the ship itself.
Of course, in this age of giant monsters that can survive tremendous amounts of firepower and break ships in half over their assorted appendages, and a lack of Congress telling the Navy it can't have all the toys it wants, an Arsenal Ship might just be viable.
Speaking of the Arleigh-Burkes, getting our hands on one of them would be one hell of an improvement to our naval firepower, but the two shipyards that built them are on the other side of the country, so we'll need to figure them out ourselves.
"If you're giving me all the toys I want, boss, Arsenal Ships are pretty far down my list. Somewhere near the top would be 'plasma and positron cannon-armed, nuclear-powered Battleships'. If we want a Navy that can actually make a dent in a Kaiju, then, barring nukes, missiles aren't the best choice.
"Another point of information, boss, is that the US Navy, being the scourges of proper naval terminology that they were, decided that frigates should be larger than destroyers. Because apparently, one of the various acts of rebellion the metaphorically-teenaged United States did to piss off daddy Britain was to use weird ship terminology. I could rant on the subject for quite some time, but I'll spare you that for today. In any case, we recovered several missile 'frigates', which should probably be about equal, or possible even superior, to the Arleigh-Burkes, in-terms of missiles cells. Once we get them functional, anyway. "
Real-talk, though. I can't actually speak to the specs of the frigates we recovered. See, the US Navy decommissioned our last frigate in '89, and the "replacement" Littoral Combat Ships are basically modular corvettes, size-wise. There is currently a plan to build some new, multi-mission, guided-missile frigates, of some unspecified class, which may or may not be based on the LCS designs, beginning work in 2020. But there are at least 5 proposals right now. Kinda up to @Fyrstorm how to handle whatever we recovered, and what it can do, though. I can link an article with information on the competing designs, or Fyr can make his own specs. Dealer's choice, as it were.
As such, they may, or may not, be a match for the Arleigh-Burkes but I'd guess match or exceed, since it looks like they're currently thinking of giving the replacement to the Burkes lasers, and potentially having the new frigates fill their current role. That's how things look to me, anyway, but I'm not exactly an insider.
Archetype/Theme: Skirmishing Debuffer, The overall design is based off the F-14A Tomcat with the laser system theme inspired by the Falken from the ace combat games. The move and shoot aspect is derived from the high-speed action of Maverick in Top Gun with the slams coming from the F-14A Tomcat being described as "Fast yet strong"
Preferred Defense Action: Dodge
Primary Weapon/Method of Attack: Ranged laser assault.
General Aesthetics: Primarily grey with red and white accents, slick almost aerodynamic. Entropy cannons rest on the back hanging as "wings" before engaging on the Jaeger's waist.
Stat Priorities: RAN > AGI > TOU > DEX > STR > HtH
Gear Breakdown:
Weapons, Gadgets, and Armor: Maverick Grindell primarily uses laser weapons, using the stance change thermal cannon idea from Boreas as it's primary means of attack cycling between Fire, Electricity and Ice. It uses the thermal cannon primarily for debuffing the enemy, taking advantage of the freeze canon mode as a means of support. For close-mid range a pair of 3x wrist mounted UV Vulcans should suffice. Potential upgrades to the UV Vulcan's could see them take on the element changing abilities of the canons. Maverick can also take advantage of it's Agility in slams if needed. Something to allow a point-blank shot after a slam would be nice.
For more damage a chest mounted Kinetic guillotine similar to Skofnung's energy cannon for added damage and anti-barrier shenanigans.
Fighting style: Mavericks style changes depending on the enemy he is facing. If faced with a sword class Kaiju he focuses on debuffing the target with ice. VS Jaegers he takes a more offensive role using electricity to try to stun them without completely destroying them. Against Kaiju he starts by focusing on squisher targets before moving onto a more supportive role. Ideally he could even mix and match different elements using the effects in combination.
Mods, Perks and Augments: Improved targeting and the ability to benefit with Arges would be highly beneficial to make sure crucial shots land. Additionally something that would lessen the penalties of moving and shooting or even give a bonus for shooting and moving, based on the idea of repostioning for the right angle would be helpful. Even more helpful given it's potential partners would be a targeting system that only targets enemies, removing the disadvantage of clusters.
GAPAS is crucial to the defense of Maverick and HVMS would help him with said repositioning.
Partnership Prospects: Practically anyone would benefit from having the debuff benefits, but if used a pure sniper Paladin Victor or Phenom Sable make perfect partners.
Every time one of you posts a jaeger build with HtH 0 and Ran 4+, the kaiju masters make another Category V. Save the gun-bags for the conventional forces-- and stop lathering them in every single upgrade or augment the Protectorate has, please.
Again, I've taken it upon myself to allow a number of ranged jaegers, but if you overuse it, I'm gonna bring out some hard counters. Remember Vertigaunt?
With that ominous threat out of the way, I think I'll finally get around to that plan.
"If you're giving me all the toys I want, boss, Arsenal Ships are pretty far down my list. Somewhere near the top would be 'plasma and positron cannon-armed, nuclear-powered Battleships'. If we want a Navy that can actually make a dent in a Kaiju, then, barring nukes, missiles aren't the best choice.
"Another point of information, boss, is that the US Navy, being the scourges of proper naval terminology that they were, decided that frigates should be larger than destroyers. Because apparently, one of the various acts of rebellion the metaphorically-teenaged United States did to piss off daddy Britain was to use weird ship terminology. I could rant on the subject for quite some time, but I'll spare you that for today. In any case, we recovered several missile 'frigates', which should probably be about equal, or possible even superior, to the Arleigh-Burkes, in-terms of missiles cells. Once we get them functional, anyway. "
"Honestly, we're halfway to a plasma-throwing battleship thanks to the Surtrs. We just need the time to design and build the hull, as well as the resources for it, and those are the real problems here."
To paraphrase a meme, "Look at us! We're the Congress now!"
Every time one of you posts a jaeger build with HtH 0 and Ran 4+, the kaiju masters make another Category V. Save the gun-bags for the conventional forces-- and stop lathering them in every single upgrade or augment the Protectorate has, please.
Again, I've taken it upon myself to allow a number of ranged jaegers, but if you overuse it, I'm gonna bring out some hard counters. Remember Vertigaunt?
With that ominous threat out of the way, I think I'll finally get around to that plan.
I don't think the problem's us posting so many "high RAN, no melee" designs so much as the possibility of us BUILDING all of them, really. We can probably PROPOSE as many as we want; we just need to limit how many of those proposals we actually BUILD.
Also remember that, in a system like this, a proposal does not guarantee a unit's presence; we also have to pay vast amounts of resources to actually BUILD them too, and we frequently have better things to do with our funds. I, for one, propose designs with the understanding that the other players may never actually get around to building any of them (due to either lack of interest or being distracted by their competitors); if any of them actually make physical appearances in this quest then that'll be a pleasant surprise for me.
Now, if we were discussing plans to actually create armies of sniper Jaegers, I'd agree with the ultimatum. However, there's nothing wrong with offering alternatives (so long as everyone understands that we can't have everything, which I hope everyone here is well aware of), is there? (edit: Actually, now that I think of it, the phrase "Arsenal-type frame" heavily implies the possibilities of large numbers of snipers, doesn't it?)
Honestly, right now we only have one vaguely RAN-focused Jaeger, so this is just coming off as melodramatic to me. (Sorry, Fyr, just telling it how I see it.)
Anyway, I'd like to suggest the following compromise: Players propose whatever designs we want to, but if we build too many of a certain type then the QM is fully authorized to crack down on us (with the aforementioned hard-counters, of whichever type is appropriate to the abuse). However, until such an abuse is made, the counters in question will be non-canon to this quest (as in, they do not actually exist until they need to, easily explained as the Kaiju Masters not seeing the need for such a specialized design until said need is proven). Deal?
Archetype/Theme: An impenetrable walking fortress of iron against which no engagement range is safe.
Preferred Defense Action: Block
Primary Weapon/Method of Attack: Punching, both up close and at a distance.
Secondary method of attack: ranged weapons
General Aesthetics: most definitely not secretly a Mazinger
Gear Breakdown:
Weapons: using an as-yet undeveloped variant of fang technology, Overlord's signature weapon is a Rocket Punch, which is used at all ranges except (usually) melee. It also can use a reactor fuel purge chest blaster as a desperation finisher in melee, and has head-mounted laser vulcans.
[X] Plan REVERSE JAEGERBOMB PREP! 0.1
-[X] Neo-Seattle
--[X] Try to break back through Elysium's counter jamming.
--[X] Main Airforce deal with rescue operations in SE.
--[X] Transports assist in rescue operations in SE sector.
--[X] Neo-Seattle Jaegers and Support Group
---[X] All Naval units should hold position, and aid in breaking through counter-jamming.
---[X] Banshees assist the Navy.
---[X] Phenom applies a Free Attack with Destroyer Talons and Submission Hold to Jackal.
---[X] Jagdhund Kicks Elysium with her TRU-4 feet.
--[X] NW Force
---[X] Continue to handle POWs.
-[X] Everett
--[X] Use Comms and Sensors to try and assist Tacit with its blindness.
--[X] Western Detachment
---[X] Continue completing previous tasks.
--[X] Main Force
---[X] Air Force try to intercept Regent, attempt to contact Tacit and assist Everett.
--[X] Tacit sprint back towards Regent to prep for Reverse Jaegerbombing as fast as your little legs can carry you. Try to receive comms assistance from Everett.
Oh. Huh. We just ripped him in half with that Free Attack. (14(roll)-0)+5(Phenom damage bonus)-4(Jackal armor) = 15 and 15+ is a Destruction Wound for Edged.
14 to the pelvis. Plus the Destroyer Talons' Damage Bonus of Str+1, that's definitely a Major Wound. It might even be a Destruction Wound, if the HVMSs Strength-boost applies here, since that would bring total damage before armor to 19 and Jackal's pelvis probably has AV 4.
Hm, I'm trying to figure out just how much being completely blind is gonna affect stuff like movement and whatnot, if at all. The rules are not very helpful on this.
Every time one of you posts a jaeger build with HtH 0 and Ran 4+, the kaiju masters make another Category V. Save the gun-bags for the conventional forces-- and stop lathering them in every single upgrade or augment the Protectorate has, please.
Again, I've taken it upon myself to allow a number of ranged jaegers, but if you overuse it, I'm gonna bring out some hard counters. Remember Vertigaunt?
With that ominous threat out of the way, I think I'll finally get around to that plan.
They're still outnumbered by our other builds, I think. And, frankly, mine was mostly to try out building one. I don't actually think my build is particularly worthy of being built. It was definitely one of my "exercise in creating a build" builds. Admittedly, most of mine start out like that, but then my enthusiasm and passion builds, and I'm left really wanting to build it.
This guy, and to a lesser extent, Joker Ruthless, are much lower on my lists. I may very well be reworking the latter entirely in the near future to inject a little more passion into him, rather than him feeling a bit generic. Viper, though? Maybe I'll recycle him into a Mark 0, or something. I dunno.
Ranged Builds are going to be a lot like Grapplers, IMO. They require significantly more investment than many other options to get working and patch their flaws, but the investment does pay off (hopefully). That's why the builds use so many mods, IMO. Well, that and they don't have a native Reaction option in their attack skill, so Agi is an obvious option. Hence why a lot of the mods aren't new ones.
"Honestly, we're halfway to a plasma-throwing battleship thanks to the Surtrs. We just need the time to design and build the hull, as well as the resources for it, and those are the real problems here."
To paraphrase a meme, "Look at us! We're the Congress now!"
Hit the nail on the head, there. Anything we field much bigger than a frigate is probably going to need point-defense or a Barrier, just because it sinking would be such a huge waste of cash. And, of course, those will probably need nuclear reactors to power those defenses.
Though maybe I shouldn't use size as the main determing factor. After all, the Arleigh-Burke-class destroyers are bigger and more heavily armed than some guided missile cruisers. So maybe we need some different distinction between ships to make the difference between what we currently have, and cruisers and battleships.
Modern destroyers have about as much armor as their WWII predecessors, which had the nickname "tin-cans". And the frigates aren't much better, so I think I may just call all such ships by the name. Nuclear reactors in unarmored ships is not exactly a recipe for a fun time.
Thus, I propose that our "cruisers" will be classified as such due to their nuclear power plants, more powerful weapons, higher cost, better armor, and any other defensive equipment they have. Super-Heavy status is up to Fyrstorm. Probably going to go with the typical "light cruiser, heavy cruiser, battlecruiser" progression in size, weaponry, cost, and armor.
I may make a distinction between battleship and cruisers similar to the one between the tin-cans and cruisers. That being the amount of power available, and the things that go with it. Battleships, be it due to multiple reactors or more powerful ones, are going to have way more power for weapons, defenses, armor, etc.
I don't think the problem's us posting so many "high RAN, no melee" designs so much as the possibility of us BUILDING all of them, really. We can probably PROPOSE as many as we want; we just need to limit how many of those proposals we actually BUILD.
Also remember that, in a system like this, a proposal does not guarantee a unit's presence; we also have to pay vast amounts of resources to actually BUILD them too, and we frequently have better things to do with our funds. I, for one, propose designs with the understanding that the other players may never actually get around to building any of them (due to either lack of interest or being distracted by their competitors); if any of them actually make physical appearances in this quest then that'll be a pleasant surprise for me.
Now, if we were discussing plans to actually create armies of sniper Jaegers, I'd agree with the ultimatum. However, there's nothing wrong with offering alternatives (so long as everyone understands that we can't have everything, which I hope everyone here is well aware of), is there? (edit: Actually, now that I think of it, the phrase "Arsenal-type frame" heavily implies the possibilities of large numbers of snipers, doesn't it?)
Honestly, right now we only have one vaguely RAN-focused Jaeger, so this is just coming off as melodramatic to me. (Sorry, Fyr, just telling it how I see it.)
Anyway, I'd like to suggest the following compromise: Players propose whatever designs we want to, but if we build too many of a certain type then the QM is fully authorized to crack down on us (with the aforementioned hard-counters, of whichever type is appropriate to the abuse). However, until such an abuse is made, the counters in question will be non-canon to this quest (as in, they do not actually exist until they need to, easily explained as the Kaiju Masters not seeing the need for such a specialized design until said need is proven). Deal?
Pretty much my point-of-view. I will also note that, at least in my case, Jaeger building is probably about as fun for me as Kaiju seems to be for Fyr.
Re: MP Frames, I think the most optimal solution for big Jaegers, assuming there's enough room for the gradation, is to have one Frame for each skill, with a minimum of 3, maybe 4, in whatever that focused skill might be. After that, we might create frames with more criteria in additional skills, based on some basic build archetypes/patterns. How many additional criteria might vary based on our own judgements, but caps on Ran seem like a nice place to save cash for melee frames. That process should give us a nice spectrum of Frames to choose from.
Now, the question becomes, "how do we actually design new Frames?" It may very well involve research, or otherwise cost Actions. If so, that make things way too costly, in-terms of Actions, to make the initial set worthwhile to create, so we should probably just make the ones for various general build types.
Phenom seems to have found his stride this turn. Too bad now everyone else is doing poorly.
Yeah, Arsenal Factor was basically me throwing together a ranged build purely for the sake of saying I had. If it gets built and turns out to be OP... well... oops? Honestly, though, I'm not even sure it'll get built, as I said before.
And yes, about half the entertainment of this quest is designing your own Giant Stompy Things (with the other half being "use those Giant Stompy Things to rip other Giant Stompy Things apart").
As QM it is perfectly reasonable precaution to warn players "beyond this point be dragons" lest rampant enthusiasm over a possibility, becomes a real danger that will break the narrative. Consider us so warned and don't worry we are not offended (at least -I- am not), I appreciate a clear demarcation of what levels of pew-pew are acceptable.
