Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Deliberate typo.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
WoG for this quest, or for PMMM generally? If the latter, do you have a source?
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
In general. IIRC, I read about it in an interview transcript on the wiki.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Acererak might actually want to get in touch with Kyubey, since the little bastard probably has more knowledge of witches and related weirdness than any magical girl could.
In the interim, creating a familiar and stuffing it in Sayaka as a pseudo-Gem is probably the best bet.
In the interim, creating a familiar and stuffing it in Sayaka as a pseudo-Gem is probably the best bet.
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
I support this idea, but I'm worried about the consequences of contacting an unpredictable, passionless energy harvester. In the best-case scenario, Kyubey will encourage Astrolord to get stronger so he can use that as incentive for Madoka to contract. In the worst-case scenario, he'll request all nearby magical girls to exterminate her.
An upside of holding a conversation with Kyubey is he's willing to talk and listen without reserve. If he knows of a witch capable of communicating with him, the witch should be able to talk to him civilly without issue. A downside is that Kyubey is likely to hang around magical girls and uncontracted individuals with latent magical girl potential. Approaching Kyubey in person is therefore suicidal, especially if Kyubey uses Az-reth's presence as a reason for girls to contract immediately. In conclusion, Anymede should contact Kyubey through Sayaka.
@Flairina I wonder how long can we keep running this gag. Should magical girls start mispronouncing her name in-universe as well?
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Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Sayaka can't be more the a few blocks away from Ashtaroth's barrier though, and we've yet to determine if she comes off as witch-like. That said, its been implied that many witches have started behaving oddly, possibly showing more rational and goal oriented thinking as opposed to random killing and wallowing in their grief induced insanity. And there's that other magic girl that talked to Mami. He might come looking for Ashtaroth on his own soon enough.
Then again, he knew that she had caught Hitomi somehow and didn't use that information for anything then baiting Sayaka. He might be totally disinterested.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
Well, at least it seems to be reserved for the witch herself instead of including her champion, I mean it is so easy to misspell it to be Slaanesh.
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
To subsume means to assimilate into a larger whole. Sayaka is not in a witch. Sayaka is part of a witch. She should feel witchy to Kyubey's magic senses. However, Sayaka is also an individual magical girl, so using her to communicate is preferred over talking as a giant book monster.
Yes and no. Showing more rational and goal-oriented thinking in addition to, not instead of, random killing and wallowing in their grief-induced insanity. No matter how rational or amicable witches can be, they are still dominated by their witchstincts, and are thus compelled to spread their despair. They are enslaved by their own curses, basically.
I wonder if Kyubey is trying to manipulate magical girls into feeding themselves to witches. Seeing that she can't help all the magical girls dying around her, Madoka will surely want to contract. It's the same exact tactic used in the canon main series.
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Appletank
Acquire Cheese
Maybe Ashtaroth ends up making Madoka wish for Sane Witch bodies. SORCERESSES INTENSIFIES
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Alternatively, Ashyolk could go to Asunaro and subsume all of the Pleiades Saints. Then she can freely produce witch bodies for herself.
Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
Ah, I see. What an interesting concept~. Once again, I am reminded that I really need to get around to reading the Discworld books.
Ah, perfect! Glad to see it's online now. I'll check that out later.
Also, that's interesting... so, between all of the "endgame" witches of the series, they tend to either be humanoid women in dresses, ex. Walpurgisnacht and Hyades Daybreak (as well as Rebellion's Homulilly if you count her, which I personally do), or they're related to "metamorphosis" type bugs, as with Crepuscule de la Reine and Embryo Eve. Granted, I've noted before that witches possessing human features is to be expected, and is by no means limited to to the strong ones, but the commonalities are curious.
Oh I realize they don't have any "official" connection, but there's no way there's not something there, even if it was only meant in jest/to save time on designing another witch. The reason could probably be expanded on without much difficulty.
Astronomy terms are so darn fun.
Magical girls are stars. Witches are typically white dwarves or neutron stars. Walpurgisnacht is a neutron star that gains mass by colliding with other neutron stars. Crepuscule de la Reine is a zombie star. Madoka is doomed to supernova spectacularly.
Oh, you meant Ashtaroth? I don't know. Black holes are the only heavenly body I thought of, though I considered the possibility that Ashtaroth may also take inspiration from flora (World Tree? Cypress? Dandelion? Lotus? Poppy?). She has a stem/trunk, a bulb (flower?), and leaves (paper, pun, perhaps intentional). Did I get that right? Did you have anything else in mind?
I'm sure Ashtaroth will bloom after a certain amount of subsuming.
I can neither confirm nor deny any flora-leaning associations.
Fun fact: A witch's kiss insignia is the same design as the one that appears on any portal leading into its barrier, so it wouldn't take actually "kissing" someone to tell.
Well, prioritizing witches to subsume requires 1) being aware that the specific witches in question exist, and 2) having any idea what the benefits would be of doing so, which is not so easy to know in-universe. From a meta-standpoint however, I'll say that the Huygens would likely only be able to restore mechanical devices, which would be useful for witches such as say, Gisela, and of course Teresa herself, but not really for others.
I'll leave this one to Hillo's response:
Ashtaroth's thought process may not be quite as in depth on this subject, since she doesn't know about Madoka being the be-all end-all of magical girls or fully understand Kyubey's motivations, but yeah, that about sums it up.
Long enough to drive it straight into the ground, most likely. And if Sayaka was even trying to call Ashtaroth by her name instead of just "witch", she'd probably be doing exactly that, intentionally or not. It's a weird sounding name by Japanese standards, what with the prominent "sh" and "th" sounds, so given a few more characters learning it, this seems less like a question and more like an inevitability.
In the event that things ended up going that way, I'd be more likely to use "Wicca" than "Sorceress". Just FYI.
True... but, that didn't work out so well if I recall, so perhaps some alterations to this plan are in order.
(Admittedly, they did technically manage to shove a witch back in a human body and eventually get it to stick, but only after literally everyone else died. So.)
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hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
I could be wrong, not having played Magia Record myself, but I was under the impression that Embryo Eve is avian. Between the bird-themed *Doppels and familiars and Eve's perpetual unhatched state (implying an egg and fetal development), I assumed that she is a bird. Even so, prenatal development, like metamorphosis, is a phase of change, growth, and maturity. And witches with potential for growth are the only witches to display these themes.
*Iroha's Doppel is a cuckoo. Cuckoos are infamous for using the nests of other birds, often even going so far as to push other birds out of the nest. I don't know how this is relevant to the plot, but there is no way it's not meaningful symbolism.
I guess it's kind of like **hollows becoming more humanoid when they become Vasto Lordes. When they get more powerful, witches look less grotesque and more complete. And by complete, I mean more finely dressed.
There are plenty of normal humanoid witches as well, but most of them hardly resemble actual humans at all.
**Have you read Bleach? Hollows are the only witch analogue I know of, but that doesn't help much if you don't know what they are.
Before I forget, would the black hole thing also be the reason Aseal's barrier won't separate from other barriers? Or is that normal for witches meant to assimilate other witches?Astronomy terms are so darn fun.
I am feeling conflicted. Should I cackle triumphantly or groan in frustration?I cannot confirm nor deny any flora-leaning associations.
Oh... It was there all along. I feel quite silly now. All that speculation for nothing.
Once again, the optimal solution for both of these problems is to subsume everything.
Hypothetically, it should be even easier than replicating the Kazumi experiment. The Pleiades Saints tried to bring back a soul from witchdom, but I meant just creating a body to represent Ashtonne. A passable and subsumable human avatar of a witch, but a soulless husk nonetheless.
Even better, they granted the pseudo-human witch magical girl powers.
The human body was made from the witch's flesh, so Kazumi was still an imitation human at best. A masterfully elaborate imitation, but still. Also, maintaining human form seems to rely on Kazumi's mental state and self-image. And that's terrible. The best analogy would be reverting differentiated cells to a pseudo-stem cell state. It works, but it doesn't work as well as using fresh stem cells.
Kazumi also had to wish her humanity back, so it wouldn't have stuck naturally.
Interestingly, Kazumi is not Michiru. She's similar in personality and was stuck with Michiru's witch problems, but she's effectively a different person, and even chose to identify as a different person. Is this because she was deprived of Michiru's original memories, or something else? How did the Pleiades Saints produce a soul for Kazumi when the original Michiru was in a grief seed the whole time? I wonder what all this says about the nature of souls and the role they play in the magical girl system.
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- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
You know, I've been thinking about the reasoning why we remained as sane as we are, and I believe it comes down to our obsession being subsumption. Subsumption is two things, an active act, but more importantly, intermediate in nature, for you can subsume something that isn't there, so our witchstincts are quiet for the most part and don't dominate us like what oftentimes happens to other witches, at least with how weak they are currently. I suspect that the more magic we acquire the more powerful those instincts shall become, as well, for all power comes at a price.
Kremhild Gretchen and Walpurgis are pretty humanish
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
It's hard to tell where Kriemhild Gretchen begins and her shadow ends. However, you'll find a humanoid form at the topmost part of the witch. I'm surprised you noticed; most people think she just looks like an onion or something. Her shadow most likely holds her barrier, but going by my silly hypothesis, she wears it like a dress.
Walpurgisnacht is both obviously humanoid and ready to kick ass in all her finery. All human aspects of this form are only a facade because her actual body is the stage on gears, but that's not really important. However, dressing up in costume does fit with her theme, and what better costume than grandiose magical girl attire?
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Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
Well, I mean...
...unless I'm very much mistaken...
I guess it's kind of like **hollows becoming more humanoid when they become Vasto Lordes. When they get more powerful, witches look less grotesque and more complete. And by complete, I mean more finely dressed.
There are plenty of normal humanoid witches as well, but most of them hardly resemble actual humans at all.
**Have you read Bleach? Hollows are the only witch analogue I know of, but that doesn't help much if you don't know what they are.
I'd say (in reiteration of a train of thought from the previous version of this story) that it's more like the more powerful they are, the closer they get to resembling stereotypical "human" witches. The Bishoujo Line, if you will ("Bimajo Line?"). Not entirely sure where the other type fits into this theory as of yet... though it's worth noting that both examples of said type have barriers that encompass extremely wide expanses of land.
I have not seen Bleach, but I know enough about it that I have some general idea what you're talking about.
Can't answer this one yet I'm afraid.
I wouldn't say for nothing. Give it an update or two.
Kriemhild is humanish in that she's deliberately meant to resemble someone reaching up to the heavens, and her tendrils/shadow could count as a dress, but I left her out of the "humanoid" group because we never truly see what she looks like at the top of that (we get a brief flash of a sort of flat, frog-like face, but thats while she's still in the midst of forming), plus magia record seems to have revealed, or perhaps canonized the concept, that the "actual witch" is a large, soul gem shaped object that resides within the center of Kriemhild's barrier/tendrils. Hillo does have a point though in that, quite similarly, the actual body of Walpurgisnacht is technically the gears, so maybe I should count her after all.
Also (and I can't believe I didn't mention this earlier, given how many posts I've been making), I've updated all the shatterword text with the new format. The illusion words used while Ashtaroth was in her central barrier however, I have not, as I'm still not entirely certain how to handle those lines, and uncertain if they even need to be changed at all.
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hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Where did you get that last image? That is the most comprehensive image of Eve I've ever seen.
Embryo Eve does have questionably insectoid features, but she is bipedal and at least her head is most certainly avian. Her forelimbs appear to be mammalian.
Since she supposedly still hasn't hatched, I wouldn't be surprised if her appearance is supposed to make more sense than this. However, there's no reason Eve can't have mix-and-match physiology. Of course, we're both running with the arbitrary assumption that she didn't fuse with a rumor...
Yep.
Wait, how does the Bimajo Line even apply to giant book witches? Did you plan for this eventuality?
Both seem to treat their barriers as their nesting grounds, instead of something more surreal and imagined. They are also interested in expanding their territory.
Well, I at least determined that the barrier fusion means Saar was caught by Azamzi's gravity, forcing her into orbit. I don't doubt that witch barriers can mash together under normal circumstances, but...
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- Location
- Portugal
- Pronouns
- Her Graciousness
I didn't notice earlier, but our girl Ashtaroth learned how to open barriers from subsuming Sayaka probably. Go team!
New formatting is alright, dunno what was wrong with the old formatting personally. It was all-capital letters, right? The new format makes the shatterwords feel smaller in universe. Before, I had imagined towering characters as big as a man.
New formatting is alright, dunno what was wrong with the old formatting personally. It was all-capital letters, right? The new format makes the shatterwords feel smaller in universe. Before, I had imagined towering characters as big as a man.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
You know, I've been thinking about how to make Sayaka more cooperative with us and our desires, and have an interest in our continued survival, and realized that the best way of making her value us more is simply to point out that at this point, we likely act in the same way as her soul gem once did, and if we perish, it is likely she would as well. She might be self-sacrificing, but I don't think it is to the point where she is willing to commit what amounts to suicide to ensure our demise.
Sayaka does not enjoy being a sockpuppet
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
"Help me or die" is an argument that inspires resentment. If narrow her options down that far, she will try taking a third choice that screws Ash over.
This isn't really that hard. Sayaka is a doer, not a thinker. Let her calm down a bit, then give her a useful job that lets her do some thirlling heroics. Hunting familiars that stray form the barrier sounds like it'd fit the bill.
And now you've got me wondering about combining the souls we subsume. What would a Sayaka/Saar hybrid with some Charlotte for seasoning look like? More likely, souls are too discrete to be mixed liked that; the most we might be able to do is two souls in one body.
Ashtaroth probably could not use her witch-body to tickle herself in Sayaka's body, but could tickle Sayaka when not controlling her.
That's the point. Instead of spending half an hour sitting in the barrier breaking down, she's unconscious, and gets to finish the breakdown after we get her home.
And I'm not sure if that was Sayaka or Hitomi screaming during the subsumption.
"If".
That's what dialogue tags—and characters with distinguishable voices—are for. It's only really an issue for fast-paced dialogue—combat and arguments being the most likely to come up.
The more relevant experiment—for what I was talking about—would be trying to make a sword or heal someone. I think detransforming is likely to work. The only other standard out-of-the-box power I can think of is tracking witches, which may not be possible without visual access to the soul gem. Possibly some self-healing, too. There are also standard powers which are learnable, like enchantment, telekinesis, and healing; if Ashtaroth knew how to do any of those before (unlikely), they might still work. Maybe. Would be interesting to know.
That's sort of the point—they don't know that souls are real. Just because something that Kyubey calls a "soul" exists doesn't mean that what you would does.
A*-oth.
Explains the galaxy-head, at least. Bodes poorly for Sayaka's chances at freedom. Very little practical meaning, I expect—Astrovore has only a few things in common with a black hole (or other celestial body), and none of the really interesting ones. (No event horizon, no gravitational lensing, no axial jets, no redshifting…)
Depends whether you want it to be funny. You can keep it up for a good long time if you don't care, but there's a limited number of plays on Escherthot's name that are actually clever.
Has it? The only thing I remember in that direction is Tira's encounter with the "skull witch", and I don't think that's enough of a coincidence to assume there's something more systematic going on.
Ashtaroth didn't try poking Novella while Sayaka's body was out of range, so we don't know whether she could make a new body for her if the current one is lost or damaged. That would indicate whether the body is her old one, retrieved from storage, or a new one, created by Ashtaroth from whatever template is in her soul. Not hearing Sayaka's thoughts during that time doesn't tell us much—I suspect she's still thinking with her brain. Neither does Sayaka being healed when first summoned. Ashtaroth not growing after the disconnection means something, but I'm not sure what—possibly that Sayaka still counted as "out" (so Ashtaroth couldn't make her a new body), possibly that the body is made from the same resources that Ashtaroth uses to grow and they don't come back that quickly/at all (the scene says "the growth you so recently went through begins to reverse", but doesn't say whether that's just the physical growth or also the magical growth). The body remaining solid means something; don't know what. (On that note, I wonder whether the bleedover from our barrier was permanent, or has reverted—another experiment for when we have time, perhaps).
There are many potential solutions to the range issue, from expanding the barrier to space-warping powers to shapeshifting to remote drones, but at the moment all we can really do is experiment with subsumption and Sayaka's connection, get more powerful, and find people who might know something useful or be willing to help, so there's no need to decide which to pursue yet.
I've decided to amend my vote to include something obvious, implausible for the setting though it may be:
-[x] "We need an adult."
Typo found while rereading:
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hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Wacky thought I just had: What if Ashtaroth subsumed Shemesh?
Another, more meaningful thought: Ashtaroth kept her ability to take different forms. It simply evolved from shapeshifting to literally taking different forms. Her powers changed this way because she rejected the world. Now she has to snatch things away from the world to get what she wants, until her barrier can replace the world entirely. Om nom nom.
Would it be alright to also let Sayaka help defeat witches stuck to Ashy's barrier? It requires either good teamwork or assuming direct control, but it would help Ashy progress much faster.
By the way, that's genius. "Aster" means "star".
Very few people would be willing to help Ashtaroth. Mami might be willing to help post-witchbomb if she knows that subsuming eliminates the risk of witching. Kyubey might be willing to help if it helps further his plans. That's about as far as Ashy can get with the known Mitakihara characters, barring unique unforeseen circumstances.
Another, more meaningful thought: Ashtaroth kept her ability to take different forms. It simply evolved from shapeshifting to literally taking different forms. Her powers changed this way because she rejected the world. Now she has to snatch things away from the world to get what she wants, until her barrier can replace the world entirely. Om nom nom.
Wait...
Witch's kiss. I'm calling it now. I could be wrong, but it just seems way too obvious and the thought has been nagging at me for a while.
The witchstincts flair up whenever there is something subsumable within range. The only thing stopping that is Ashy's relatively passive and aloof lifestyle. This will change as she gets more involved with the magical girl stuff in Mitakihara.
Yeah, but it's not Ashy's own human form. Using someone else's form is little more than fully functional cosplay.
"You'll go down with me when I die, but you can prevent that by helping me" is a phrasing with more logos and fewer threatening undertones. It's also a suggestion rather than a demand or ultimatum. Sayaka may still feel resentment at the fact, but she should be a lot easier to persuade this way.
It's mutually beneficial as well, so no complaints there. (I don't really know how this is beneficial for Ashy, but Flairina insists it is and the reason is spoilery.)
Would it be alright to also let Sayaka help defeat witches stuck to Ashy's barrier? It requires either good teamwork or assuming direct control, but it would help Ashy progress much faster.
You messed up the link. I spent a few minutes wondering what I did wrong until I found the page you meant to link to and realized you misspelled a word.
By the way, that's genius. "Aster" means "star".
Interesting.
Would the barrier be the event horizon? Other barriers can't escape after fusing with it.
But we know using Sayaka's signature powers works. They're recorded in Novella, so they must be available.
A reasonable assumption, but it hasn't been tried yet and we don't know for sure. Therefore, it should be tested.
Yes, all of these are worth testing as well. I'd like to know how Ashtaroth's magic works in general, not just the powers specific to her wish and curse.
You are way out of my league.
Is this the skull witch? She is unusually intelligent, so she fits the bill.
The body is solid because it's real, independent of the magic that produced it. That's probably why it's a permanent drain on Ashy's magic.
There's no way the bleedover is permanent. Otherwise, tracking down witches would be a lot easier for magical girls and the world would be inexplicably littered with odd environments. It's the sort of thing we would have noticed in canon by now.
Ashtaroth can't warp space or shapeshift, and her remote drones don't expand the barrier's influence. Good thing she can just find and subsume witches and magical girls with those powers.
Very few people would be willing to help Ashtaroth. Mami might be willing to help post-witchbomb if she knows that subsuming eliminates the risk of witching. Kyubey might be willing to help if it helps further his plans. That's about as far as Ashy can get with the known Mitakihara characters, barring unique unforeseen circumstances.
This more or less applies to the franchise as a whole, but since when have adults directly helped with anything magical? Not just upperclassmen or adult magical girls, but responsible and caring adults in general. Being meguca is suffering.
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