Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)

veekie · Dec 13, 2018

hillo315 said:
We've never seen a witch outside her barrier, so I think it's safe to assume that exiting the barrier is suicide. If we assume a witch's barrier is defined as the witch's range of influence, I suspect that Ashtaroth can't directly affect anything outside her barrier, either. This limits her actions to sensing the environment, moving the barrier around, kissing unsuspecting humans (once she knows how and actually tries), and doing stuff as Sayaka. Tossing out remote drones is Ashtaroth's most useful ability.

We have indeed seen one.
Walpurgisnacht is a Witch without a Barrier.
It is not absolutely certain however, because:
-There is a curtain call. She is preceeded by a wave of familiars carrying a wave of distorted reality. Its possible this is the remains of a Barrier.
-Her Familiars take two sorts:
--One set are random weird thingybobs which are pretty much normal familiars. They seem to wander around the periphery <- Points at Shemesh and the various Subsumed Witches' familiars
--One set are magical girl shadows which fight at magical girl levels but aren't ranging around far from Walpy <- Points at Subsumed Sayaka

hillo315 · Dec 13, 2018

veekie said:
We have indeed seen one.
Walpurgisnacht is a Witch without a Barrier.

Walpurgisnacht is a witch without a labyrinth. She still has a barrier of sorts, evidenced by the storm clouds that manifest in her presence. Her barrier manifests out in the open because all the world's a stage, and all its people merely players.

She is preceeded by a wave of familiars carrying a wave of distorted reality. Its possible this is the remains of a Barrier.

It is functionally different from a labyrinthine barrier, so Walpurgisnacht may very well have modified it to work that way. In any case, reality is distorted in the witch's vicinity. This phenomenon implies a witch's barrier, or a derivative thereof.

One set are random weird thingybobs which are pretty much normal familiars. They seem to wander around the periphery <- Points at Shemesh and the various Subsumed Witches' familiars

Shemesh wanders around only when he is not taking orders. Rather than decoration, Shemesh is a useful sentry and a clueless butler. The Ummashtarts are closer to what you are describing.

One set are magical girl shadows which fight at magical girl levels but aren't ranging around far from Walpy <- Points at Subsumed Sayaka

The magical girl familiars almost certainly represent assimilated witches, so Sayaka is an accurate parallel.

@Flairina Are Ashtaroth and Walpurgisnacht supposed to foil each other?

Flairina · Dec 13, 2018

hillo315 said:
Not that I disagree with this course of action, but why would Ashtaroth want the familiar population thinned? More familiars means more witches. More witches means more subsuming.

Not to give away a plot point, but... more on this later.

veekie said:
We have indeed seen one.
Walpurgisnacht is a Witch without a Barrier.
It is not absolutely certain however, because:
-There is a curtain call. She is preceeded by a wave of familiars carrying a wave of distorted reality. Its possible this is the remains of a Barrier.
-Her Familiars take two sorts:
--One set are random weird thingybobs which are pretty much normal familiars. They seem to wander around the periphery <- Points at Shemesh and the various Subsumed Witches' familiars
--One set are magical girl shadows which fight at magical girl levels but aren't ranging around far from Walpy <- Points at Subsumed Sayaka

Hyades Daybreak and the Witch of Despair (Ultimate Kriemhild) also qualify under this category, that being witches powerful enough to supposedly not need a barrier. On that subject...

hillo315 said:
Walpurgisnacht is a witch without a labyrinth. She still has a barrier of sorts, evidenced by the storm clouds that manifest in her presence. Her barrier manifests out in the open because all the world's a stage, and all its people merely players.

...whether this means they don't HAVE one, or that they just don't need it, is seemingly up to audience interpretation. One could argue the storm clouds merely manifest in response to Walpurgisnacht's power and/or "grief density" rather than them being part of anything actually "belonging" to her.

Edit: Kriemhild Gretchen also definitely has a barrier, but either we never see what it looks like, or it's spread across her surroundings.

hillo315 said:
@Flairina Are Ashtaroth and Walpurgisnacht supposed to foil each other?

*mimes zipping lips*

And now, two things I just really want to say:

1. The sheer variety of misspellings of Ashtaroth's name I've seen between this thread, the SB one, and the two "original" story threads is pretty entertaining. Some of them are just different cultural spellings of the actual name, but just off the top of my head we've had Astaroth, Ashteroth, Azeroth, Asherah, I swear someone called her Azathoth at one point (wouldn't that be a different story), and many more. This is honestly really funny to me; I wonder just how far we can take this before the name is completely unrecognizable.

2. There's a witch I have planned and sketched out that I really, really want to show off, but which is scheduled to show up so far in the future of this fic that it will likely be literal years before I get to do so. This frustrates me- designing her this far in advance was a mistake. Thankfully, the other witch that I already have designed and sketched shouldn't take nearly as long to make her appearance, relatively speaking.

inverted_helix · Dec 13, 2018

Flairina said:
2. There's a witch I have planned and sketched out that I really, really want to show off, but which is scheduled to show up so far in the future of this fic that it will likely be literal years before I get to do so. This frustrates me- designing her this far in advance was a mistake. Thankfully, the other witch that I already have designed and sketched shouldn't take nearly as long to make her appearance, relatively speaking.

Clearly the solution is to write more of this story faster.

Appletank · Dec 13, 2018

Yes, we need more Azazaza.

Dermonster · Dec 13, 2018

Azeroth is the best misspelling.

Xexilf · Dec 13, 2018

Azathoth could be more of a long term goal.

aquinas · Dec 13, 2018

Xexilf said:
Azathoth could be more of a long term goal.

Why would we want to kill poor Ashtaroth's ego, its what makes her a special snowflake!

Unilateral · Dec 13, 2018

Flairina said:
I wonder just how far we can take this before the name is completely unrecognizable.

Azazel? Azalea? Thoth? Ashtray was one I remember seeing.
Ash to rot.
Ash Ketch'um'all
Asura's wrath.

Karyis · Dec 13, 2018

Flairina said:
2. There's a witch I have planned and sketched out that I really, really want to show off, but which is scheduled to show up so far in the future of this fic that it will likely be literal years before I get to do so. This frustrates me- designing her this far in advance was a mistake. Thankfully, the other witch that I already have designed and sketched shouldn't take nearly as long to make her appearance, relatively speaking.

I'm curious now.

Are you going to include Fanren Kang at all? I really loved that witch, it would be cool to see her again.

Flairina · Dec 13, 2018

inverted_helix said:
Clearly the solution is to write more of this story faster.

I agree- if only I was better at that. ^^;

Unilateral said:
Ash Ketch'um'all

*scribbles note for future reference*

Karyis said:
I'm curious now.

Are you going to include Fanren Kang at all? I really loved that witch, it would be cool to see her again.

Glad to hear she has a fan.

And yes, probably... buuuuut likely not as an encounter for Ashtaroth. We've seen that already, if only in the previous iteration, so I don't really feel like repeating it. Right now I have two witches fairly fleshed out with nominally finalized sketches, several more that are a little more bare bones and which may not ultimately appear, and two, including fanren, which are planned to appear but likely won't be majorly focused upon. Mind, this is in addition to any canon witches/MGs turned witches (of which there are now MANY to choose from due to Magia Record) that may potentially show up.

Gonna start updating previous posts with the new shatterword format soon.

Neruz · Dec 13, 2018

Dermonster said:
Azeroth is the best misspelling.

It turns out that Ashtaroth was a planet all along! That explains Shemesh at least; he's the moon!

hillo315 · Dec 14, 2018

I just realized that Sayaka getting eaten is a blessing in disguise for her. The soul gem is always the weak spot. Now that she's been deprived of her soul gem, she has no weaknesses*. This means Ashtaroth can throw Sayaka at most opponents and she'll be totally fine. She'll probably get beat up by most of them, but she'll be totally fine...

*Technically, Ashtaroth is Sayaka's weakness.

Nottheunmaker said:
Tons of witches and familiars is likely to draw more magic girls to the area, negating any benefit. If Ashtaroth is identified as the source then it even make it worse.

The point of releasing tons of witches and familiars would be to distract magical girls from Ashtaroth. Ashtaroth can just quietly slip away before the magical girls arrive to handle the chaos.

Flairina said:
Hyades Daybreak and the Witch of Despair (Ultimate Kriemhild) also qualify under this category, that being witches powerful enough to supposedly not need a barrier.

The Hyades Daybreak was artificially created using Kanna Hijiri's magic (connecting things together). She is not a natural ~~Menos Grande~~ gestalt witch, so I take her example with a grain of salt. It's hard to tell how the Hyades Daybreak passively affects her surroundings, anyway.

The Witch of Despair is not solid, apparently. Soon after appearing, her form breaks down into a haze of grief and curses, which I suppose is a barrier, sort of.

Crepuscule de la Reine is explicitly stated to have a barrier. This barrier clearly occupies physical space in the real world, since it encompasses all of France. The barrier lacks scenery of its own. It even supersedes other witch barriers, allowing witches to freely manifest inside it.

...whether this means they don't HAVE one, or that they just don't need it, is seemingly up to audience interpretation. One could argue the storm clouds merely manifest in response to Walpurgisnacht's power and/or "grief density" rather than them being part of anything actually "belonging" to her.

Define "belong".

According to my understanding of witch barriers and Ashtaroth's interaction with hers, the witch and her barrier exist together. The barrier is basically the witch's... aura, though that is probably a massive oversimplification of the concept.

Most witches are effectively isolated in their own little worlds, while Walpurgisnacht and other absurdly powerful witches are large-scale threats because they can affect the world directly. I think it's safe to say that a witch's power determines how much direct influence she has on the world around her, and therefore how well her barrier is grounded in reality.

*mimes zipping lips*

Okay then. Does Ashtaroth gain a man da la with her final form? Or something similarly awesome?

Flairina said:
Mind, this is in addition to any canon witches/MGs turned witches (of which there are now MANY to choose from due to Magia Record) that may potentially show up.

???: *tears off familiars* "You thought you were fighting Candy. But it was me, Matasaburo!"
Ashtaroth: "Who?"

Neruz said:
It turns out that Ashtaroth was a planet all along! That explains Shemesh at least; he's the moon!

I imagined Ashtaroth as a star. Or perhaps a black hole?

wingstrike96 · Dec 14, 2018

hillo315 said:
I imagined Ashtaroth as a star. Or perhaps a black hole?

There was that equation going from Book->knowledge->mass

Motile Mollusc · Dec 14, 2018

Flairina said:
I wonder just how far we can take this before the name is completely unrecognizable.

Ashtaroth, Oshtaroth, Octaroth, Octavoth, Octavia. And then Ashtaroth was Sayaka.

Neruz · Dec 14, 2018

wingstrike96 said:
There was that equation going from Book->knowledge->mass

Therefore the next step for Ashtaroth is to develop and access L-Space.

hillo315 · Dec 14, 2018

Neruz said:
Therefore the next step for Ashtaroth is to develop and access L-Space.

Sounds like a plan. Wait, were you joking?

Flairina · Dec 15, 2018

hillo315 said:
I just realized that Sayaka getting eaten is a blessing in disguise for her. The soul gem is always the weak spot. Now that she's been deprived of her soul gem, she has no weaknesses*. This means Ashtaroth can throw Sayaka at most opponents and she'll be totally fine. She'll probably get beat up by most of them, but she'll be totally fine...

In theory, I suppose. If Sayaka is like, completely dismembered, it doesn't matter if she's still alive; she's still not able to do anything unless/until she can figure out how to regrow an entire body. Same for several other afflictions she could potentially experience- and witches are weird enough that just about anything is possible.

The Hyades Daybreak was artificially created using Kanna Hijiri's magic (connecting things together). She is not a natural ~~Menos Grande~~ gestalt witch, so I take her example with a grain of salt. It's hard to tell how the Hyades Daybreak passively affects her surroundings, anyway.

The Witch of Despair is not solid, apparently. Soon after appearing, her form breaks down into a haze of grief and curses, which I suppose is a barrier, sort of.

Crepuscule de la Reine is explicitly stated to have a barrier. This barrier clearly occupies physical space in the real world, since it encompasses all of France. The barrier lacks scenery of its own. It even supersedes other witch barriers, allowing witches to freely manifest inside it.

Fair point with the barriers. As mentioned in the edit to my previous post, Kriemhild Gretchen was powerful enough to not require/manifest outside a barrier also, but most definitely had one, as she intended to draw/absorb the entire world into it. Which means the barriers likely exist for the ultra-powerful witches, but don't restrain them from acting directly on the real world.

Haven't actually read tart magica- couldn't find it online last time I looked- but I'll take your word for it regarding Crepuscule de la Reine.

According to my understanding of witch barriers and Ashtaroth's interaction with hers, the witch and her barrier exist together. The barrier is basically the witch's... aura, though that is probably a massive oversimplification of the concept.

Sounds about right. Or at least close enough that it wouldn't make much difference.

Okay then. Does Ashtaroth gain a man da la with her final form? Or something similarly awesome?

???: *tears off familiars* "You thought you were fighting Candy. But it was me, Matasaburo!"
Ashtaroth: "Who?"

I still don't quite understand the connection between these two witches. Are they the same witch, but with and without their outer layer? Produced from the same girl under different circumstances? Completely unrelated witches that just happen to have near identical looks and familiars? Candy is an evolved familiar of Matasaburo? The wiki page doesn't make it all that clear; think I'd need to actually play Magia Record.

Or perhaps a black hole?

That is indeed the imagery she's intended to evoke. Though other "heavenly body" imagery may also qualify, depending on what it is.

Motile Mollusc said:
Ashtaroth, Oshtaroth, Octaroth, Octavoth, Octavia. And then Ashtaroth was Sayaka.

Octoroks are my favorite Zelda monster!

Neruz said:
Therefore the next step for Ashtaroth is to develop and access L-Space.

I'm afraid I have no idea what this is referring to, and looking it up just links me to a department store. Which, I don't think was what you meant, although it would be kind of funny if it was.

veekie · Dec 15, 2018

Flairina said:
I'm afraid I have no idea what this is referring to, and looking it up just links me to a department store. Which, I don't think was what you meant, although it would be kind of funny if it was.

https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/L-space

Article:

L-space, short for library-space, is the ultimate portrayal of Pratchett's concept that the written word has powerful magical properties on the Discworld, and that in large quantities all books warp space and time around them. The principle of L-space revolves around a seemingly logical equation; it is an extension of the 'Knowledge is Power':
Books = Knowledge = Power = (Force x Distance ÷ Time).

Flairina said:
In theory, I suppose. If Sayaka is like, completely dismembered, it doesn't matter if she's still alive; she's still not able to do anything unless/until she can figure out how to regrow an entire body. Same for several other afflictions she could potentially experience- and witches are weird enough that just about anything is possible.

IIRC one of the side materials specified that a magical girl who know how can operate as a disembodied soulgem. But they'd need:
-Clairvoyance
-Telekinesis
-Ability not to freak out into a witchout by being disembodied.

All being learnable skills but for obvious reasons few girls would ever have learned how to work without a body at all

Neruz · Dec 15, 2018

Basically as veekie said, L-Space is the result of the 'logical' extrapolation of 'Knowledge is Power':
Books = Knowledge
Knowledge = Power
Power = Energy
Energy = Mass * Speed of Light2

A good bookshop is, therefore, a genteel black hole that knows how to read. Where does said hole lead to? L-Space.

veekie said:
IIRC one of the side materials specified that a magical girl who know how can operate as a disembodied soulgem. But they'd need:
-Clairvoyance
-Telekinesis
-Ability not to freak out into a witchout by being disembodied.

All being learnable skills but for obvious reasons few girls would ever have learned how to work without a body at all

Yup, Puella Magi are D&D style Liches without the innate ability to reform their bodies from dust. All a Puella Magi needs is her Soul Gem, bodies are just convenient.

veekie · Dec 17, 2018

Neruz said:
Yup, Puella Magi are D&D style Liches without the innate ability to reform their bodies from dust. All a Puella Magi needs is her Soul Gem, bodies are just convenient.

They probably COULD at least temporarily reform a body if they had enough magic. Its not even very different from a MG transformation, just an approximately 6-10x mass increase.

hillo315 · Dec 17, 2018

Flairina said:
If Sayaka is like, completely dismembered, it doesn't matter if she's still alive; she's still not able to do anything unless/until she can figure out how to regrow an entire body.

Sayaka has super healing at her disposal. It's less effective than it is in canon, but it's there. She'll be fine. Plus, witching is not a danger for her anymore.

Haven't actually read tart magica- couldn't find it online last time I looked- but I'll take your word for it regarding Crepuscule de la Reine.

Here you go. And here is a list of witches that show up in Tart Magica.

Isabeau is best medieval witch, hands down. Her debut is at the end of chapter 15. She shows off some minor badassery at the beginning of chapter 16. Her wish is revealed in chapter 20, and she unleashes her full power in chapters 20 and 21.

Physiologically speaking, Crepuscule de la Reine is lepidopterous but with humanlike hair, spine, hands, and faces. Her entire body is not revealed at once, partly due to her large size.

Before I stray too far from the topic, I'd like to add that Embryo Eve's barrier likely encompasses Kamihama in a similar manner.

I still don't quite understand the connection between these two witches. Are they the same witch, but with and without their outer layer? Produced from the same girl under different circumstances? Completely unrelated witches that just happen to have near identical looks and familiars? Candy is an evolved familiar of Matasaburo?

Not the same witch. They look similar, as do their familiars. Matasaburo is the witch form of a laughably generic magical girl, while Candy is presumably a spoiled brat. I'm willing to bet that the two witches are somehow related, but no connection, big or small, has been established.

Anyway, the joke is that Matasaburo ought to look like Candy when her familiars cover her, but the witch herself plays such a minor role that almost nobody in-universe would have any reason to remember her.

The wiki page doesn't make it all that clear; think I'd need to actually play Magia Record.

I cannot even play Magia Record. Damn language barriers.

I'm in despair! My inability to independently translate Japanese has left me in despair!

That is indeed the imagery she's intended to evoke.

That would also explain why Saar was spaghettified as she was subsumed.

Though other "heavenly body" imagery may also qualify, depending on what it is.

Magical girls are stars. Witches are typically white dwarves or neutron stars. Walpurgisnacht is a neutron star that gains mass by colliding with other neutron stars. Crepuscule de la Reine is a zombie star. Madoka is doomed to supernova spectacularly.

Oh, you meant Ashtaroth? I don't know. Black holes are the only heavenly body I thought of, though I considered the possibility that Ashtaroth may also take inspiration from flora (World Tree? Cypress? Dandelion? Lotus? Poppy?). She has a stem/trunk, a bulb (flower?), and leaves (paper, pun, perhaps intentional). Did I get that right? Did you have anything else in mind?

I'm sure Ashtaroth will bloom after a certain amount of subsuming.

Neruz said:
Basically as veekie said, L-Space is the result of the 'logical' extrapolation of 'Knowledge is Power':
Books = Knowledge
Knowledge = Power
Power = Energy
Energy = Mass * Speed of Light2

A good bookshop is, therefore, a genteel black hole that knows how to read. Where does said hole lead to? L-Space.

This sounds absurd, but I don't see how magic can't make something this inherently awesome work.

Pangram · Dec 17, 2018

It's okay, Sayaka! You can make it work! Any moment now, Ashtaroth will find the alternate outfits screen and she'll be able to equip your school uniform alternate outfit.
Grind real hard over the week, and maybe you'll be able to unlock the 'casual wear' outfit in time for the weekend. Wow!

Though, I hope you aren't planning on getting married or going to the beach any time soon. Unless, you'd be happy with a 'mermaid knight' cosplay, rather than a swimsuit?

ThoughtMaster · Dec 17, 2018

You know, it's interesting how Azoth's abilities grow and expand with those she meets. The more individuals she collects, the more powerful she is likely to become.

Now, onto something that is relatively on topic, a kiss usually takes the form of a seal, or insignia that represents the witch in question. Ours likely takes the form of a book, closed or open I'm not sure about yet, but I'm stuck on what to put upon the book. … I wonder if we could use our kiss to "tag" individuals we have an interest in like Hitomi who we seem unable to subsume.

I am also curious about the possibility of what witches should we prioritize subsumption of. The familiars of the witches Teresa - Puella Magi Wiki and Stacey - Puella Magi Wiki would be useful for us to acquire. Then there are the witches who are likely to submit to us without even needing to be subsumed, like Rebecca - Puella Magi Wiki who would likely fit right in with the expansion Saar provided and is so meek that it is likely that she would fall into a similar role as Shemesh.

hillo315 · Dec 17, 2018

ThoughtMaster said:
Azoth

The more individuals she collects, the more powerful she is likely to become.

Gotta catch 'em all!

Now, onto something that is relatively on topic, a kiss usually takes the form of a seal, or insignia that represents the witch in question. Ours likely takes the form of a book, closed or open I'm not sure about yet, but I'm stuck on what to put upon the book.

I always imagined Ashtaroque's witch kiss as the world protruding from a book. But since we don't know for sure, we should test it sometime.

I wonder if we could use our kiss to "tag" individuals we have an interest in like Hitomi who we seem unable to subsume.

Absolutely not on Hitomi. Hitomi is a trusted friend. Ashythot should not betray friends by using the standard witch weapon. In order to minimize damage and avoid soiling her reputation, Azoozoh should use it on some poor bloke who has nothing left to live for.

The familiars of the witches Teresa - Puella Magi Wiki and Stacey - Puella Magi Wiki would be useful for us to acquire.

The familiars need to be loyal to Azerogue. If they don't take orders, they can't be controlled so easily.

Teresa's familiars are presumably great for healing, but we don't really know how they do what they do. Do they specialize in fixing mechanical flaws? Do they use time manipulation?

Stacey's familiars are useful for locking things up. I'm not sure why Asheva would want to do that, but it is a handy ability she could find many uses for.

Then there are the witches who are likely to submit to us without even needing to be subsumed, like Rebecca - Puella Magi Wiki who would likely fit right in with the expansion Saar provided and is so meek that it is likely that she would fall into a similar role as Shemesh.

Rebecca is as servile as you say, but she is also too cowardly for combat. Even worse, she might panic and attack Oberoth at first sight, instead of submitting to her.

Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)

Intact but Tactless

Least Omnipotent Goddess

Acquire Cheese

The Shittiest Wizard

Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis

procrastinating as we speak

Least Omnipotent Goddess

Rogue Spiderbanana

Intact but Tactless

Bitten by a radioactive were-tilde

Rogue Spiderbanana

Intact but Tactless

Least Omnipotent Goddess

Rogue Spiderbanana

Intact but Tactless

Intact but Tactless