Wait, what happened in the Wraith Arc? I don't get why Homura would lose her powers.
Madoka screwed up the reset or something along those lines, leaving Homura with two contracts, and two sets of powers. Her old Time powers, and whatever her Wraith-timeline self wished for, the one that gives her a bow like Madoka. Somehow, some wraiths managed to get a chunk of Homura's shield, if i recall, which operates under 'previous universe metaphysics', corrupting the Wraiths and giving them a bit of time magic while also theming them after the Mitakihara meguca. I honestly don't remember much more than 'the Madoka themed Wraith teams up with Homura to defeat the other corrupted Wraiths', Wraith Arc was a really, really bad attempt to tie end-of-anime to start-of-Rebellion. It also ends with the Kyubey somehow managing to retain that shield fragment during the end-of-Wraith-Arc cosmic reset, which is why he's even willing to start the whole 'bring back Witches' plan that led to Rebellion.
 
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Despite the fact that that its literally their one defining trait.

If someone here understood what happened on that one, please enlighten me.
 
Madoka screwed up the reset or something along those lines, leaving Homura with two contracts, and two sets of powers. Her old Time powers, and whatever her Wraith-timeline self wished for, the one that gives her a bow like Madoka. Somehow, some wraiths managed to get a chunk of Homura's shield, if i recall, which operates under 'previous universe metaphysics', corrupting the Wraiths and giving them a bit of time magic while also theming them after the Mitakihara meguca. I honestly don't remember much more than 'the Madoka themed Wraith teams up with Homura to defeat the other corrupted Wraiths', Wraith Arc was a really, really bad attempt to tie end-of-anime to start-of-Rebellion. It also ends with the Kyubey somehow managing to retain that shield fragment during the end-of-Wraith-Arc cosmic reset, which is why he's even willing to start the whole 'bring back Witches' plan that led to Rebellion.

Mostly this, but slight correction. Spoilers for Wraith Arc below.

At the end of the anime, when Ultimate Madoka resets the universe after the destroying the newly hatched Krimhield Gretchen just ate the planet earth, she bids farewell to Homura as the erasure of her witch paradoxes her out of existence.

Kyubey is present but states that he won't be retaining the memory of the previous universe, as it is rearranging events so as Witches and the events they caused never happened. Madoka and her existence also included, as she becomes a fundamental force/principle of the universe to do her work.

Homura is now understandably horrified at the idea of returning to earth without Madoka or any memory of her. I'm not quite sure how exactly it happened, but Homura came out of it with a new wish: to not forget her memories of Madoka. Which upon her return manifested in the ability to use Madoka-themed Bow and Memory Manipulation.

Wraith Arc is her trying to cope with living in a world without Madoka, and failing miserably. She gets reckless which, as a post above said, accidentally got a chunk of her potential/soul taken by a Wraith.

Said wraith eventually ended up getting jacked by Homura's potential (apparently it's sapient enough to do that) and took the form of Madoka, becoming an ally for the rest of the arc.

Anyway, the lost potential diminished Homura's ability to use magic. She could still transform but couldn't summon her weapons, and her magical abilities a took a nosedive. Kyubey says her soul was partially gone, operating at a lower maximum capacity, and couldn't regenerate.

This is literally what Ashtaroth did to her. She subsumed a part of Homura's soul, though to what extent, it's not sure.

Either way Homura is in for a Bad Time if she can't summon her shield as it has all her weaponry and the diminished magic capacity is outright crippling given she could only access the low magic potential she started with in the first place.

Ashtaroth, once she gets rolling, is on the way to becoming a nightmare of a witch that could potentially match/surpass Walpurgisnacht, because she has both Madoka's and Walpy's methods of accumulating power. She stacks potential and absorbs other magical entities as she goes.

She ain't much right now, but if given a decent amount of time and opportunity? Yikes.

This is developing into an Isabeau-esque problem Kyubey would need drastic solutions to, but given that he can't follow them across timelines? He can't even try.
 
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Mostly this, but slight correction. Spoilers for Wraith Arc below.

At the end of the anime, when Ultimate Madoka resets the universe after the destroying the newly hatched Krimhield Gretchen just ate the planet earth, she bids farewell to Homura as the erasure of her witch paradoxes her out of existence.

Kyubey is present but states that he won't be retaining the memory of the previous universe, as it is rearranging events so as Witches and the events they caused never happened. Madoka and her existence also included, as she becomes a fundamental force/principle of the universe to do her work.

Homura is now understandably horrified at the idea of returning to earth without Madoka or any memory of her. I'm not quite sure how exactly it happened, but Homura came out of it with a new wish: to not forget her memories of Madoka. Which upon her return manifested in the ability to use Madoka-themed Bow and Memory Manipulation.

Wraith Arc is her trying to cope with living in a world without Madoka, and failing miserably. She gets reckless which, as a post above said, accidentally got a chunk of her potential/soul taken by a Wraith.

Said wraith eventually ended up getting jacked by Homura's potential (apparently it's sapient enough to do that) and took the form of Madoka, becoming an ally for the rest of the arc.
Basically magical girls cant become witches but wraiths still suddenly could. Because Homura.
Despite the fact that that its literally their one defining trait.

If someone here understood what happened on that one, please enlighten me.
Homura's a glitch in the system, the madoka wraith that worked with homura wanted homura to get her emotions back so the wraiths could straight up kill homura to clean this mess up. Because homura's stuff emotions, nature whatever corrupted them into witches whenever they tried to eat it.
 
Anyway, the lost potential diminished Homura's ability to use magic. She could still transform but couldn't summon her weapons, and her magical abilities a took a nosedive. Kyubey says her soul was partially gone, operating at a lower maximum capacity, and couldn't regenerate.

This is literally what Ashtaroth did to her. She subsumed a part of Homura's soul, though to what extent, it's not sure.

Either way Homura is in for a Bad Time if she can't summon her shield as it has all her weaponry and the diminished magic capacity is outright crippling given she could only access the low magic potential she started with in the first place.
To make things more confusing Homura has some extra, unused potential that Ashtaroth immediately acknowledged upon her arrival (whatever Homura used to fuel what she did in Rebellion).
 
Of course, it wasn't Homura's shield that was subsumed, if it was, then she couldn't have done the time warp ing thing that she does. I do wonder if we will be seeing Humura with frizzy hair...
 
To make things more confusing Homura has some extra, unused potential that Ashtaroth immediately acknowledged upon her arrival (whatever Homura used to fuel what she did in Rebellion).

That was always a thing. While Kyubey was only able to notice Madoka, the loops increased both hers and Homura's karmic potential.

It's just that the loop's starting point, Homura's release at the hospital, is before Madoka contracts in the timeline. Because Homura already made her contract before accumulating karma while Kyubey seems to only be able to measure potential before contracting. Which for her admittedly wasn't much. Homura started with really low potential, even with the boost that the emotional turmoil she was under when she contracted.

I suspect though that Homulily would have been able to access that buried potential and become an absolute juggernaut had she been born prior to the Madoka Finale.

No one would have been able to foresee that the magically weak Akemi Homura would birth a Witch that'd eat Walpurgisnacht alive.
 
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I'm going to compare Ashy's sentience to that of other Witches in this message and it's going to be really confusing. Given how canon explains Witchouts, I'm going to be using comparisons to sleep and dreams. Basically, the Magical Girl the Witch is born from is in a very deep nightmare after they witch out and is blindly lashing out against everything around them (Bebe's card says Mami reminds her of someone she met in a nightmare, Nagisa first met Mami after witching out into Charlotte).The Law of Cycles is basically like an alarm going off, letting them leave said nightmare. However, certain things can happen that can lead to the Witch partially waking up or fully waking up. In Kazumi Magica, Saki seems to partially get her humanity back after Witching out due to hearing Kazumi's earrings and proceeds to end herself in order to not harm Kazumi. This can be compared to Saki being shaken and starting to wake up, but deciding to go back to sleep out of habit (don't you also want to go back to sleep after waking up?). Ashy can be compared to someone with insomnia. She never did fall into the nightmare that other Witches did (likely due to her own Wish or someone else's Wish). The witchstincts kicking in can be compared to becoming drowsy after a long day of work (of course, would it even be possible for Ashy to fall into a nightmare like the other Witches?)
Basically, a Witch could end up sentient like Ashy if she were to manage to get one to 'wake up', but they probably wouldn't remember what they did while 'asleep' or would immediately pull a Saki. Ashy breaking them out of their cycle of misery might be enough to cause some of them to 'reawaken' or having reminders of tiny details of their life as a Magical Girl could do the exact same thing (as seen with Saki).
This is all a wild theory as well. This might not even be possible in the story.
 
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Omake: Sleepwalking
(of course, would it even be possible for Ashy to fall into a nightmare like the other Witches?)
I move through the ever same motions.

We make progress, yet it is never enough.
Suffering continues. I keep fixing all that I can, yet it is never enough.
As countless stories reveal themselves as final act tragedies, I can only stand by and watch.
Relegated to nothing but a bystander, incapable of affecting the outcome in any meaningful way.
And so I stand and watch.
The only action I can take is to end the downfall entirely, to destroy and subsume the tragedies in their entirety.
And so I devour their fate.
But even then my help is not enough. Infighting reigns, the unwilling blame me, the willing themselves.
And so I take the blame.
Narratives are stretched before me, not doomed, but bound, they play a grand story that I cannot hope to control.
And so I seek to intervene.
My attempts are clumsy, causing more strife and turmoil than they solve, my weigh a sledgehammer on the mosaic.
And so I stand and watch helplessly.
Powerless to stop this madness.
Powerless to control my domain.
I ever seek more to add to my stage.
It is better than what is fated.
It has to be.

Perhaps the next one will help me.
Help me regain control of my domain.
Create a new peace around me.
Make it my story once more.

Perhaps the next one.

Perhaps the next one.

Perhaps the next one.
 
I move through the ever same motions.

We make progress, yet it is never enough.
Suffering continues. I keep fixing all that I can, yet it is never enough.
As countless stories reveal themselves as final act tragedies, I can only stand by and watch.
Relegated to nothing but a bystander, incapable of affecting the outcome in any meaningful way.
And so I stand and watch.
The only action I can take is to end the downfall entirely, to destroy and subsume the tragedies in their entirety.
And so I devour their fate.
But even then my help is not enough. Infighting reigns, the unwilling blame me, the willing themselves.
And so I take the blame.
Narratives are stretched before me, not doomed, but bound, they play a grand story that I cannot hope to control.
And so I seek to intervene.
My attempts are clumsy, causing more strife and turmoil than they solve, my weigh a sledgehammer on the mosaic.
And so I stand and watch helplessly.
Powerless to stop this madness.
Powerless to control my domain.
I ever seek more to add to my stage.
It is better than what is fated.
It has to be.

Perhaps the next one will help me.
Help me regain control of my domain.
Create a new peace around me.
Make it my story once more.

Perhaps the next one.

Perhaps the next one.

Perhaps the next one.

10/10? Perhaps the next one...
 
I am not a user of Discord, but I rather suspect that, were Subsumption discussion to occur in the Backwards Grin/Backslash section of the Dexworks? server then it would likely be tolerated.
 
So, I have an interesting idea about why Ashtaroth still has her sentience.

Well all know that she had shapeshifting, and from one of the Ummashtart that includes fantasy creatures like the drider we saw catch Hitomi all the way back in Confrontation 3. We've also seen an Dragon Ummashtart in the previous draft of the story so we know that an entities natural abilities can be used.

So let's consider for a moment that our lovely little Magical Girl [CENSORED]-Chan, in her dying moments, decided to try something she always wanted to do due too her curiosity. Shift into a Witch.

Sound like madness, but if you could, wouldn't you? Knowing that they are grief consumed magical girls would push most away, as the risk of actually witching out are probably very high, but if someone was on the edge of despair anyway, why not?

It would also explain why our body wasn't there when we witched out, and is more likely then just us Subsuming our own body and not even remembering doing that.

So, you people's thoughts on that?

Edit: The reason we are still sentient and sapient is because we willingly transformed into a Witch. Like what some consider Kirika's reason to be.
 
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You know, we really need a Subsumption discord server lol. It'd be nice to be able to talk to other people about it faster.
I am not a user of Discord, but I rather suspect that, were Subsumption discussion to occur in the Backwards Grin/Backslash section of the Dexworks? server then it would likely be tolerated.
Yes, Subsumption discussion is allowed there. We've even got an Ashtaroth pog emoji.
 
Well, in order to revive the thread, I have a question about how Oktavia's nature changed. In Magia Record, Oktavia von Seckendorff appears as the Doppel of Unrequited Love. However, Oktavia's Witch nature is Falling in Love. Given how earlier in the thread the evolution of Homulilly was discussed (Homulilly started as the Mortal World witch with a nature of Closed Circuits due to the time loops, then changed to the Mortal World witch with a nature of Karma when Homura figured out she was the reason that Madoka was getting more powerful. After she completely failed to save Madoka, Homulilly changed to the Nutcracker witch with a Self-Sufficient nature.) This raises the question of what event in Sayaka's life caused Oktavia to change from the Mermaid witch with the nature of Unrequited Love to the Mermaid witch with a nature of Falling in Love?
EDIT: Also this probably means Ashy's Sayaka still has her Oktavia's nature as Unrequited Love, since she probably hasn't gone through what caused the nature change in the first place. If Sayaka wasn't subsumed, we probably would've seen her transform into Unrequited Love Oktavia instead of FiL Oktavia since said world-view changing event didn't occur. Wait, can we get two different Witch pages if a Witch comes with a different nature? Like would UL Oktavia and FiL Oktavia have two separate pages from each other in Novella?
 
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what event in Sayaka's life caused Oktavia to change from the Mermaid witch with the nature of Unrequited Love to the Mermaid witch with a nature of Falling in Love?
Now, I can't claim familiarity with Sayaka's story in Magia record, or much of Magia Record for that matter. But based on what I do know, I'd take it as an implication that Magia Record-Sayaka (on a subconscious level at the very least) knows/believes/is scared that Kyousuke isn't romantically interested in her.
 
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