How is adding filth to worse filth notably selfsevering?

You get free sewers, and look, it conveniently happens that sending your inconvenient waste down there is in fact good for the witch...

Self-serving is when a line of argumentation just so happens to get what one wants. It doesn't necessarily mean the argument is wrong, but it means one should be highly suspicious of it.

It also sometimes means, as in this case, that one misses the true ideal by limiting themselves to the arguments that favor them best. Even if flushing down waste helps the witch... wouldn't flushing down clean water help even more? There is a danger that, in pursuing a desired conclusion, one misses obvious optimizations simply because they don't match said desire quite so well.

The first problem is if that would work at all. The filth is magically generated, it's source is the barrier itself. It's very possible that more will just appear by magic. The second, bigger problem is where to put the now filthly waste water? Saar's canals? Down Charlotte's tunnels? Candeloro's blood lake? Just out on Ashtaroth's lawn? You can't really clean something like that in this situation. There's no filtration system in this barrier. At best you move the nastiness someplace out of sight and out of mind. Which, ya know, the sewer was probably doing a good job at.
You tell me. What was the sewer originally doing with the waste to begin with?

If it was doing nothing with the waste, then you have a problem. There is an inflow but no outflow; the sewers will eventually flood from the hypothetical magical waste, regardless of whether or not anyone actually adds to it.

And if the waste was flowing somewhere, then the clean water flows there as well.

This isn't a problem that suddenly appeared when I suggested flushing down clean water; it's a problem inherent to the sewer.
 
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You get free sewers, and look, it conveniently happens that sending your inconvenient waste down there is in fact good for the witch...

Self-serving is when a line of argumentation just so happens to get what one wants. It doesn't necessarily mean the argument is wrong, but it means one should be highly suspicious of it.

It also sometimes means, as in this case, that one misses the true ideal by limiting themselves to the arguments that favor them best. Even if flushing down waste helps the witch... wouldn't flushing down clean water help even more? There is a danger that, in pursuing a desired conclusion, one misses obvious optimizations simply because they don't match said desire quite so well.
I can see that line of reasoning. What I might be failing to me is why it's problematic in this case. I really don't see why cleaning the sewer would be better then using it as a sewer. I can't imagine the Witch likes the sewer, what with it being a manifestation of her own torment and self-loathing. Clean or not it's still dark and dank, not a pleasant environment. Why clean it when the Witch could go some place considerably less awful for her?
You tell me. What was the sewer originally doing with the waste to begin with?

If it was doing nothing with the waste, then you have a problem. There is an inflow but no outflow; the sewers will eventually flood from the hypothetical magical waste, regardless of whether or not anyone actually adds to it.

And if the waste was flowing somewhere, then the clean water flows there as well.

This isn't a problem that suddenly appeared when I suggested flushing down clean water; it's a problem inherent to the sewer.
I don't image anything was being done with the waste. It's only there to make the Witch suffer. It's fair to assume that, if washed someplace else, it won't come back. There could be sewage dispensing familiars, but reasonable as it would be for me to assume that, it'd be nothing but speculation. There might be an inflow, but where that stuff is coming from probably doesn't exist. Similar could be said for the outflow, in that it probably goes out, but 'out' isn't a place that can be gotten to. It's also very possible there is no in or outflow, and the sewers would be nothing but dark wet concert tunnels that connected only to themselves until Ash showed up.

If there's a definite inflow/outflow, adding cleaner liquid doesn't really help. It just raises the waterline. The filthy, disgusting, sewage filled waterline. If there's familiars that dump sewage in there, cleaning it is a temporary fix unless you can also some how permanently deal with them. And if there's nothing like that and the sewage just exists, then there's probably a way to shove it all out someplace else. Which brings us back to the problem of where this else place is. Because it'd be a presumably good sized barrier's worth of sewage, and it has to go someplace. Someplace being other parts of the barrier.

Or it could just stay in the sewer, out of sight and out of mind.
 
Nice piece of conversation, and while I missed Ashtaroth sharing how her witchtincts make her behave more like witch I can see why she wouldn't like to disclose it (or even think about disclosing it).

We see Sayaka more open and a new secret from Tira (what she doesn't like about her magic? and why, if relevant)

I can't blame Sayaka for feeling bad when Ashtaroth said how bad as a witch she is. Yeah, she fought bad and without care to her magic expenditure but she doesn't need to hear that.

As for the fake vote, I'd say let them go and try to give them a little privacy. Does Tira know Ashtaroth's barrier now includes parts originally from other withches' barriers?

Incidentally; given how her Wish is formulated she probably has an inferiority complex, because she wished to be able to create art on the level of a great artist but only got the ability to copy them, implying she didn't believe she could be that good on her own.
If she actually believed she could be that good on her own she wouldn't have wither for that in the first place.

That said, two girls can totally just sneak into a public bathhouse or even a gym shower to hose off, and those will probably be better then anything that can currently be put together in the barrier. So for now that's the better option.
The problem with that idea is that Tira is wearing Candeloro:

- If Tira is still wearing Candeloro I expect Candeloro be in agonizing pain when Tira leaves the barrier. Ashtaroth very much didn't like the feel of reality, and she was just close to the exit.
- If Tira intends stop wearing Candeloro we have to deal with a potentially enraged Candeloro because I can't trust her to understand "Tira will leave for a bit but she'll return after taking a bath". Candeloro will just see Tira leaving.
 
- If Tira intends stop wearing Candeloro we have to deal with a potentially enraged Candeloro because I can't trust her to understand "Tira will leave for a bit but she'll return after taking a bath". Candeloro will just see Tira leaving.
This is very much a valid concern. That said, it seems, to my subjective judgement, to be vastly superior to the interaction between Candeloro, and Tira enjoying the cleaning services of being eaten by a book.
 
- If Tira is still wearing Candeloro I expect Candeloro be in agonizing pain when Tira leaves the barrier. Ashtaroth very much didn't like the feel of reality, and she was just close to the exit.
- If Tira intends stop wearing Candeloro we have to deal with a potentially enraged Candeloro because I can't trust her to understand "Tira will leave for a bit but she'll return after taking a bath". Candeloro will just see Tira leaving.
Good observation. This is an issue not just for bathhouses, but for leaving the barrier for any reason (including war and covert ops).

One possible way to assuage her is for Candeloro to ribbon her long-distance, assuming that can exit the barrier. Having the barrier follow Tira may be another possibility at times.

...

I don't image anything was being done with the waste. It's only there to make the Witch suffer. It's fair to assume that, if washed someplace else, it won't come back. There could be sewage dispensing familiars, but reasonable as it would be for me to assume that, it'd be nothing but speculation. There might be an inflow, but where that stuff is coming from probably doesn't exist. Similar could be said for the outflow, in that it probably goes out, but 'out' isn't a place that can be gotten to.
This seems more than a little confused. The exact nature of inflow/outflow don't particularly matter (aside for further worldbuilding), only that they exist. I've labeled in orange the parts that could be considered an outflow.

It's also very possible there is no in or outflow, and the sewers would be nothing but dark wet concert tunnels that connected only to themselves until Ash showed up.
If this is so, then connecting the sewers to your toilets puts you in deep shit in the long-term.

If there's a definite inflow/outflow, adding cleaner liquid doesn't really help. It just raises the waterline. The filthy, disgusting, sewage filled waterline.
Swimming in 50% crap is a lot better than swimming in 100% crap.

I can see that line of reasoning. What I might be failing to me is why it's problematic in this case. I really don't see why cleaning the sewer would be better then using it as a sewer.

Because someone's living there? As we've both agreed, if the witch leaves, there's no longer anything constraining our sewer usage; but if the witch doesn't, it's more than a little problematic.

Just because something was built as a sewer doesn't mean you have to use it as one. If circumstances change, such as people being forced to use it as a swimming pool, do you still blithely continue to dump waste as before?
 
Tira: I'm sorry Mami, but i really want a shower.
Candel, puts on hard hat and summons a pipe wrench: dIsPeNSeR GoInG uP *Installs a fucking plumbing system*
Ash: Yo wtf
 
Tira: "This bathtub looks like a giant teacup."

...

[steps in] "I really hope this isn't apropos of anything."


-----------​

[Later]

Tira: "Oh gosh, oh gosh what kind of drainage system was that?"

[Giant ribbon-guest finishes slurping down the tea]

Ash: "Witchstincts. Can't live without em; also, batshit crazy."
 
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[-] Head into the Canvas and experiment, but keep track of what Tira and Sayaka are doing as well, following along in spirit and perhaps telepathically chiming in if you feel the need. You're probably not going to get quite as much done if you're splitting your attention the entire time, but you really need to practice your multitasking skills anyways.
 
Swimming in 50% crap is a lot better than swimming in 100% crap.
No, it's just differently awful.
Just because something was built as a sewer doesn't mean you have to use it as one. If circumstances change, such as people being forced to use it as a swimming pool, do you still blithely continue to dump waste as before?
The whole point of a sewer barrier is to have a sewer level, hopefully to be inhabited by sewer gators of the giant variety. If that changes I lose all interest.
 
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Omake: Worthless Trash — The Sewage Witch's Hatching
Sarah stumbled down the street. Blood dripped from her perfect lips onto her perfect palms.
In wich rested one of her perfect teeth.

She could already feel the new one poking from the bloody flesh, the wound barely closed, a replacement already slotting itself in.
Fake. Lies. Stop pretending.

In a closed stores window an apparition of absolute beauty returned her gaze. But not mortified. No messy tears or snot, no grimace of disgust and anger and fear, no messy blood staining the skin.
A work of utter beauty, the tears flowing in large, clean droplets, as the blood perfectly lined the mouth and contrasted on the perfect pearly skin.

A young woman beyond compare.

The image shatters into a thousand shards of glass. The hand that she does not remember raising returned to her side with perfect pose, the internal termoil perfectly expressed to the stage of the world.

She does not look to see the glimmering patterns the shards form in the laterns light. She does not need to.

Worthless trash, taking up space for the real people, the good people, the ever so perfect peope.

She does not understand as she runs through streets uncaring. This was supposed to be over. Done with. If not when she was elevated, then at least when she finally disposed of all the other trash, put it where it belonged.

Unseeing eyes gaze upon the stars from the highest tower in the city, lights dazziling below as if to answer the challenge raised by the twinkling sky above.
The perfect ending.

And yet even as she slipped away, the trash followed. Flowed. Around her, at her, it is her.

Someone is at fault. Someone will pay. This trash cannot come from nowhere. And they will pay.

If she cannot be free, then she shall not suffer the indignity of suffering alone.

After all, even hell has to be perfect.
 
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Tracing this part because there was a reply I had wanted to write.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the point of contention regarding traditional use of sewers. Personally I don't see getting eaten by a book monster, however temporally, as a preferable alternative to the john. Especially if the book monster is aware of why you want to get eaten. Like no. Just no.
That's your personal opinion, that's fair enough. I mean, lose of awareness, lose of self can be prety scary.

But I'll just point that Sayaka has already been eaten by the book monster once while Astaroth was testing some ways to sepparate Sayaka from herself, even with Ashtaroth asking and Sayaka being brought back no problem. That means that by now Sayaka, regerdless of reason, shouldn't feel so viscerally against the idea of being reabsorbed into Ashtaroth as you (she still doesn't like it, and that's ok too)
 
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But I'll just point that Sayaka has already been eaten by the book monster once while Astaroth was testing some ways to sepparate Sayaka from herself, even with Ashtaroth asking and Sayaka being brought back no problem. That means that by now Sayaka, regerdless of reason, shouldn't feel so viscerally against the idea of being reabsorbed into Ashtaroth as you (she still doesn't like it, and that's ok too)
If my soul was stuck in a book based tower of swirling lines made manifest, then I too would be prepared for some rather drastic measures.
But I have yet to tremble in terror or brace for the horror of heading to the bathroom, even if that might take the form of local bushes.

What one will do when needs must and what may do for conviencies sake are two seperate lists, and one is quite a bit longer than the other.
 
I was just doing some re-reading, and I finally figured out why Shemesh abducted Hitomi. I can't believe I never noticed this before:
You start making shooing motions in Shemesh's direction, not sure exactly how to make yourself understood. Um… shoo? Go on, get out of here, you weirdly vexsome giant sphere. The only things you're on the lookout for right now are interesting sights and teenage girls, not some sort of… size shifting, miniature planet shaped familiar, or whatever you are.
You're greeted by the sight of a terrified looking green-haired girl being held in place over Shemesh's rounded surface by some unseen force.
Best!orb just wanted to help. :(
 
[-] Head into the Canvas and experiment, but keep track of what Tira and Sayaka are doing as well, following along in spirit and perhaps telepathically chiming in if you feel the need. You're probably not going to get quite as much done if you're splitting your attention the entire time, but you really need to practice your multitasking skills anyways.
It might be useful to get to know them better and u can also practice your skills
 
Geeze this thing grew into a monster. I've got a lot of catching up to do.

It would be considerably larger if I wasn't such a slow writer, so... yay for that? ^^; Either way, glad to have you back with us Maromar. :)

If Sayaka and Tira replaced themselves, then they would have, well, replaced themselves.

"Sayaka! Sayaka why won't you wake up!"

Homura: "I see, now. That witch must have followed me back, and exceeded the control distance of Sayaka's subsumed soul gem. But, she will want to retrieve her asset, and that will be my chance to set a trap for her."

Ashtaroth: "Aw, hell."

Heh, an amusing thought. Though, note that Ashtaroth wouldn't necessarily know where Sayaka and Tira went in that case, or that they'd even stayed connected to her at all — ironically, had the girls not remained with her, she'd have had a considerably higher chance of figuring out what Homura actually did, and may not have even gone looking for them. She could have potentially guessed that they'd been left behind either way, but even if she went back to Mitakihara, Sayaka and Tira's bodies would likely be in a rapidly advancing state of decay by the time she arrived... so let's just be glad that whatever it was that happened, it wasn't this.

There's been some debate about whether or not there are other Sayakas, Tiras, or possibly Mamis aside from Ashtaroth's ones due to how Homura's time travel seems to work. And I don't recall any definite evidence for either argument thus far.

Believe me, I wish I could just get to the part where the answer to this becomes clear. The "discovery" of the larger situation was not supposed to take this long to get to — has it seriously been a year? I need to get this fic moving at a speed greater than the pace of a particularly sluggish glacier. (^_^; )

I especially look forward to the mob interaction system really stepping up, they've stated multiple times they all have different interactions with each other, all related to what their 'jobs' are, and how they'll change based on which dungeon you find them in. Much more complex then a simple predator/prey system. Really, my only disappointment is that with so many mobs, they usually don't have any material drops, so the crafting system is limited to what is found in the dungeon environment, and even then you can't make much besides furniture to improve the morale of the NPCs.

I know I've said this before, but I mean it this time — expect to see some progress on this VERY soon. ;)

I wasn't, though I do quite like the art. I was referring to the way you described locations, very vivid and creative! It's why I voted for Sayaka and Tira to go off on their own, I want to read more about the barrier from their perspective, both in the scale sense and the way they interpret the world.

Hah, I only wish I could incorporate as many small details into my writing as the show does for its scenery, but thank you nonetheless!

Imprisoned test subject is the only way I saw this going. Magical Girls in groups for some reason seem to turn evil or so selfish they might as well be evil. For real, MGs have a real asshole problem.

I'm guessing it's more that the asshole/selfish ones survive a lot more often. Which is almost depressing enough of a thought to make one witch out all on its own.

I wouldn't mind seeing our sewer witch as a witch that is eventually subsumed or at least part of the biome

Perhaps, though I imagine the inhabitants might not be thrilled about the prospect of living next to a living sewage plant. That smell spreads ya know...

(Good thing Ashtaroth doesn't normally have a nose.)

Sure. Call me Sewer Girl. I mean, call me Sanitation Girl. Yeah, I got nothing.

Hmm... Pipeline? Disposal? Culvert? I'm sure there's SOME Worm-esque hero name one that can extrapolate from that concept — hell, there's a strong chance there already exists a canon Worm character with that concept.

I was under the impression that it was sometime in the both imminent and yet distant future. You know, like Invader Zim, where the architecture and social structures and such are pretty modern, but also at some point people started giving out meat on valentines day and all of the cameras can fly for some reason.
From what I gather (I did a bit of research on this for my own quest) 2011 is apparently a very strong guess because a good few things in the show like the phases of moon would match up, and the date of Walpurgis night would align relatively neatly with the day Walpurgisnacht appears in the timeline presented by the show.

The differences in aesthetics and tech could plausibly be written off as some wishes having led to more advanced tech or made such tech cheaper. Or, you know, someone wished to make Mitakihara more interesting.

Failing that, a few decades down the line remains quite plausible and 2030s sounds like it could be right.

I'm likely not going to explicitly define what year this story takes place in, but I will remind everyone that I've been operating off the timeline/calendar where Walpurgisnacht (the Witch) arrives on Walpurgisnacht (the day). Whatever the case, bear in mind that Mitakihara is weird, and therefore not likely to be wholly representative of the look or tech-level of the rest of the world, no matter what time period this is taking place in.

(Also, Hitomi is seen using a flip phone in the first episode, and she's rich enough to undoubtedly have the latest model, so there's very likely some tech weirdness going on one way or the other.)

Does going back into the book reset Sayaka/Tira to a base state? If so, this could avoid the need for plumbing.
Given the implications, Ashtaroth does not want to know the answer to that question.

Sigh. I'm going to have to address this in-story at some point now, aren't I? :[

(...I say, having already considered the scenario thoroughly enough to have a rough idea of how I'd handle the topic prior to this conversation.)

The nearest armoury likely has a flamethrower, definitely knows how to use one, and wants to know what we did to her otherwise gloriously perfect hair, but would much rather just fix the issue quickly, and thinks that a flamethrower would be the best way of doing so. I think that, should we need an armoury, it would be best to find a different one...

"Napalm-chan", as some call her, should indeed best be avoided for fear of her living up to her nickname. An armory that doesn't walk, teleport, or have the capacity to issue leaden death upon all in front of it would probably make a better prospect for robbing.

That just sounds utterly wrong. I can't find anything grammatically wrong with creating that word, but I doubt anyone ever would.

Oh? Well, I suppose I could go with something like "Zaubermädel" instead... I admit, my grasp on German isn't advanced enough to say which would be more appropriate.

I can't blame Sayaka for feeling bad when Ashtaroth said how bad as a witch she is. Yeah, she fought bad and without care to her magic expenditure but she doesn't need to hear that.

Meanwhile, Ashtaroth herself remains entirely oblivious to this. She is not terribly socially apt, if it wasn't staggeringly obvious at this point. :rolleyes:

As for the fake vote, I'd say let them go and try to give them a little privacy. Does Tira know Ashtaroth's barrier now includes parts originally from other withches' barriers?

It was never explicitly stated, but as Candeloro's section obviously wasn't present when Tira first entered the barrier, she easily may have inferred as much by this point.

Best!orb just wanted to help.

That's all he ever wants to do... and gosh if Ashtaroth doesn't get inexplicably annoyed by it.

Much back and forth about the possibility of a sewer witch, sewer gator familiars, whether or not it's cruel/self-serving to use a sewer as a sewer if someone is living in it, and the logistics of whether or not renovating it would be remotely possible

There's too much here to succinctly reply to, but I would just like to say that I love that this largely sprung from 1) the concept of Ashtaroth's barrier essentially becoming a video game level hub, and 2) a character concept I more or less came up with off the top of my head. These are the kind of discussions you just don't get on other sites. :lol:

Madoka: "Sooo... grief is just another one of those psychological conditions that we've been healing every few minutes, right?"
Sarah stumbled down the street. Blood dripped from her perfect lips onto her perfect palms.

Threadmarked x2 COMBO!!! I'll address these separately:

1. A simple solution to a complex problem. Were it only so easy... though even if it were, I imagine Kyubey would immediately work to change things somehow to make that impossible, or actively work to prevent such information from spreading. I mean, on the one hand perpetual magic replenishing means perpetual free energy, and magical girls suddenly gain a much longer "shelf life"... but on the other hand, humanity has proved to be a perfectly sustainable resource for millennia even without that, and it means the witch system could be overturned, which is apparently a much better energy source than anything else a magical girl can provide. He'd be as close to righteously pissed as an incubator can get — which is, of course, why it's funny. :3

2. Very nice! Took me a second to get what this was referencing (yes, despite the current primary thread discussion), but it's a pretty nice "origin story" snippet. I actually like that you gave her a non-Japanese name — if she was living in Japan, it's entirely possible that the reason she was originally being tormented and called things like "Trash" or "Cockroach" was because of her nonstandard nationality/appearance, adding an extra layer of potential subtext to the situation. I take it that in this case her wish was to always look or have a perfect appearance, and I'm surprised how much pathos you managed to add to that in so short a snippet. Should the sewer/sewage witch ever become an actual character, I may go ahead and canonize this. :)
 
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That sounds fine.

I take it that in this case her wish was to always look or have a perfect appearance,

Well I was thinking a wish that was to always be perfect, but with the intent of always appearing perfect, both physically and otherwise.

You know, to add another level of suffering. Because apperantly I'm QBs intern now or something :p

And of course she lives in japan, if Ashy was to encounter her for the previously discussed sanitation ideas.
(All of wich are crazy but I liked the theme for a witch.)
 
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(Also, Hitomi is seen using a flip phone in the first episode, and she's rich enough to undoubtedly have the latest model, so there's very likely some tech weirdness going on one way or the other.)
"I wish flip phones remained popular!"
An armory that doesn't walk, teleport, or have the capacity to issue leaden death upon all in front of it would probably make a better prospect for robbing.
"I wish armouries were mobile and could defend themselves!" :p

Meanwhile, Ashtaroth herself remains entirely oblivious to this. She is not terribly socially apt, if it wasn't staggeringly obvious at this point. :rolleyes:
We really need to subsume someone with social skills ASAP.
 
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