What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?


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Our navy is I believe characteristic by our focus on these things:

- Strike craft as primary damage dealers, specifically extremely high quality ones rather than expendable swarms.
- Heavy metal. We are and will remain absurdly top heavy due to our navigation method. Heavy ships excel in durability and shorter ranged combat where low speed and high durability shines. This also means we are outnumbered and shooting lighter ships against peer enemies.
- Ship quality/technology. DP in other words. This is not as simple as it seems, as more DP is not a linear increase in ship quality but so long as there are enough Equips multiplicative. It allows for feats of multiplier stacking like boosting missile launchers twelve time over. Synergizes a lot with heavy hull for even more DP, and allows those heavy hulls to match smaller ones for firepower per cost, while also having the much higher durability of larger hulls for basically free. This runs into limits of weapon stacking sometimes mind where larger versions of weapons are not as efficient (1 DP discount) or practical (larger hull size required)


Now lets look at the proposed doctrines.

All Doctrines remove the Armor Penalty for Carriers and Supply Generation/Repair Equipment Discounts.
Good. All of them also keep the +Speed and +Shields.

[] Carrier Battle Group Focus
Recent battles have proven that fragile carriers cannot stand alone when capital ships clash and that current doctrine focuses insufficiently on providing proper close-range protection and screens for long-range carriers in favor of increasing the speed of vessels that are insufficiently mobile to dodge raiders the likes of the Flyssa class. This doctrine is focused on adequately escorting the Federation's long-range sword and their carriers, with specialized large combat ships equipped with powerful, accurate lance batteries and enough armor to, if necessary, block attacks on the carriers with their hulls.
(Heavy Cruisers, Grand Cruisers, and Battleships get DP discounts on High Tech Equipment and Weapons (Artillery, Lance, Plasma, Teleportarium, etc.) and penalties on Low Tech Equipment and Weapons (Macro-Cannons, Rams, Armor, etc.).
Length/Width is one step cheaper for the same classes.
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
I would like more info on what is high or low tech. Other than that, only Armor equips are something we would like sometimes and we can do without just fine I suspect, other ways to raise durability. Macrocanons we can do without, rotary ones are high tech.
Length/Width being cheaper equals +1 DP.

I like the focus on our heavies, it plays to our strengths, but that it starts with Heavy Cruiser makes it tricky. We still have most of our combat power in light cruisers, heavy ones are flagships and heavy hitters not our main battleline. But perhaps we will want to change this? With the N'Nonmiton Squadron equip and with Libra running hard into Too Many Weapons problem a Heavy Cruiser carrier to replace it seems like an excellent idea... if so, this could be a very powerful doctrine if resulting is hillariously top heavy SBGs (and with how top heavy they are not thats saying something).


[] Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus
As the Federation has expanded and matured, we have learned that the Galaxy is full of terrors, and we must be both vigilant guardians for our own people and benevolent liberators for the oppressed, Humans and Xeno alike. Due to this, our ships have specialized for their combat roles, with front-liners pinning down enemy fleets in close-medium range while Carriers and escorts provide long-range firepower in the backline. However, this comes at the cost of equipment prioritization and supply.
(The First Weapon Type has its DP Cost halved (calculated by adding all together and then halving it), with the Second/Third/etc Weapons Type gaining an X (Base Cost) × .50 (Rounded Up) DP Cost Increase.
The First Weapon Type can be used one Weight Class higher than usual by paying the unchanged DP cost.
Weapon Types are: Projectiles, Missiles, Lances, Strikecraft, and Melee.
Removes all Equipment DP cost increases but adds a 2 DP Flat Tax (applied once) if any equipment is added.
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
This could result in some utterly monstrous heavy cruisers. Not much lighter that that though, as we are already running into the too many weapons problem there, though it would save lighter ships a bunch of DPs.
We are already, with the exception of torpedoes, monofocusing our ships weapon types. Wait, are torpedoes under Missile Weapon Type?
Mounting step heavier weapons at effectively double the cost does not seem useful, especially for our already massively top heavy navy. We want to shoot down not up.
Effective -2 DP to all ships. Our warships won't care, but noncombat ones or the likes of Andromeda would.

This could be very powerful if well exploited. Monofocused heavy cruisers mounting the biggest weapons they can would be complete monsters and smaller warships would get a boost also. The -2 DP cost to noncombatants would be annoying though.


[] Battle Fleet Carrier Focus
A doctrine that seeks to maintain the Federation's strength in its carrier arm while attempting to shore up specific weaknesses. Experience has shown the ability of enemies to launch lightning strikes against the core of the fleet; as such, this doctrine focuses on carriers and their close escorts. To allow the fleet carriers to work heavy escorts equipped with lances for pinpoint accuracy, responsive fire is necessary to counter threats such as the Flyssa class ships. Extreme-range voyages are a secondary concern compared to brutal battles nearer to home.
(Remove increased DP cost for Lances and High Tech Equipment (Teleportarium, etc.).
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
Trades the endurance part discount to remove the lance (and other high tech) cost increase. Simple, but effective.


[] Skirmish Carrier Focus
A doctrine that follows the reasoning of exploiting the enemies' weakness without diverging too far from our own strengths. As such, the Glimmering Federation's new constructions will focus on long-range combat, using strike-craft and other long-range weaponry to exact a heavy toll upon the enemy before the battle lines close and maintaining superior speed and maneuverability to control the range. However, this focus on maneuverability comes at a higher cost for structural reinforcement.
(Reduces cost of all Prow Lances/Artillery and enhances their effects.
Removes DP Penalties of Lances.
Increases cost to increase the length/width of ships by 100% each step.
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
This one is a bad fit for us. With our big ship focus we can not outspeed the most certainly lighter enemies, and we benefit a great deal from length/width increasing the number of weapons and equips a ship can have without problems.
Also we have strike craft for long ranged firepower.


[] Barrage Carrier Focus
A doctrine that seeks to support the Federation's main strength of carrier attacks by officially endorsing the long-standing but unofficial practice of supplementing them with large-scale missile support. Production lines for sufficient weaponry are prioritized over heavy armoring and close in boarding/ramming equipment.
(Reduces the cost of all Missile Equipments by 1 DP.
Increase Non-Missile (Hangars excluded) DP costs by 1.
Sharply reduces the Weapon Cramming penalties/point of application for Missiles.
All Missile Weapons can now be mounted on one Weight Class lower than stated.
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
The Macross Missile Massacre doctrine.
Reducing missile equip cost by 1 DP equals +2-3 DP. So far.
Reducing Weapon Cramming penalties is not unimportant, we were already running into that problem with our very high DP budgets. Sadly without also having a missile launcher cost discount, or raising our DP budget even more, we can't exploit it much. If we had -1 DP cost for missile launchers though... that would be something to behold.
Meh, no reason for ships of this doctrine to be mounting heavier missiles than they should. We are top heavy, we shoot down. Or straight. But not up.

Overall, without a missile launcher discount this is meh at this time. With it, it would be wonderful.


[] Cutting Edge Carrier Focus
A doctrine that seeks to further expand on the Federation's technological advantages, the Cutting Edge focus aims to endorse the current practice of heavily focusing ship designs on specific weapons and the advanced equipment needed to support them rather than the sheer weight of tubes.
(Removes all penalties.
Ship classes older than 150 years cannot be built or copied without new Equipment/Weapons being added.
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.)
No cost penalties, which is nice, at the cost of refitting everything every 15 turns. Not sure if thats bad, neutral, or even good?

Doesn't outright boost any of our strengths though.
 
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I suppose in this system, since we aren't degrading Dogmatic nation, our Heavy Cruisers are closer to Mars/Styx/etc rather than Lunar/Slaughter?
Yeah, thereabout.
...The Pentagon actually works. 5 is our sacred number so that actually works well lmao.
I am incandescent with rage.
I would like more info on what is high or low tech. Which are missiles and torps?

Wait, are torpedoes under Missile Weapon Type?

Do all these doctrines keep the (All Light Cruiser+ Class Ships must carry at least one Hangar-related Weapon)? It costs us effectively 3 DP for all light cruiser+ non-carriers, as we keep boosting that lonely hangar with two equips.
In order;
Missile and Torps are Low Tech.
Torps are Missile Type.
No. What you see in Mechanics is what you get as Doctrine.
 
[] Battle Fleet Carrier Focus
A doctrine that seeks to maintain the Federation's strength in its carrier arm while attempting to shore up specific weaknesses. Experience has shown the ability of enemies to launch lightning strikes against the core of the fleet; as such, this doctrine focuses on carriers and their close escorts. To allow the fleet carriers to work heavy escorts equipped with lances for pinpoint accuracy, responsive fire is necessary to counter threats such as the Flyssa class ships. Extreme-range voyages are a secondary concern compared to brutal battles nearer to home.
(Remove increased DP cost for Lances and High Tech Equipment (Teleportarium, etc.).
Acceleration and Shields are treated as one step cheaper for all classes.
Discounts do not reduce DP cost below 1.
Remove the Armor Penalty for Carriers and Supply Generation/Repair Equipment Discounts.

I like this option b/c it basically just returns all our ship weapons and equipment to baseline cost, save the Strikecraft stuff and our Shield/Acceleration discount. Nothing fancy that pushes us towards certain weapons or ship classes, just return to baseline with a few bonuses.

[X] Battle Fleet Carrier Focus
 
[X] Carrier Battle Group Focus

Well, i proposed it so i guess i need to vote for it? I think with the limitations of our FTL switching to increasingly top heavy fleets is probably in our best interest anyways, and building very good heavy cruiser gunplatforms to accompany our carriers is a solution to our Flyssa problem and will pay dividends in the future.
 
[X] Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus

Is my preferred focus as this allows some very powerful heavy cruisers and with our limited ships per FTL ship that would play to our strengths
 
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Thanks for the clarifications, the process is making a lot more sense.

[] Carrier Battle Group Focus
Possibly very nice for high end Heavy Cruisers and up, status quo for everything not in that catefory. I'm not sure if we'd want to take High-and-middle-Tech all the time anyway or if this would be limiting for HC+. HC still action expensive to design.

[] Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus
Almost very strong but the Second Weapon Type +50% Cost on top of Equipment penalty makes it very tricky. Like taking one 3 DP weapon as a Second Type goes to (3x1.5=4.5 rounded up) 5 DP, brutal. Does Med Hangar on LC+ non-carriers stay at 1 DP or go to (1x1.5=1.5 rounded up) 2 DP? It would be OP if either 2nd/3rd Type or Equip costs were removed, if Hangers were exempt from cost increase it would be very tempting.
edit: oh we wouldn't need to get Hangarswith new doctrine.
No. What you see in Mechanics is what you get as Doctrine.

If next gen Scorpio wants Torpedoes + Missiles alongside the mandatory Hangar again it'll be rough. (Nevermind, Torp and Missile are same type, Scorp loves this.) Sagi-S loves it, Leo's guns love it but the 2 DP Hangar cuts a lot of that joy away. Gets better with more weapon stacking (which I approve of) but not a lot of our ships do that so far, its hard to fit in frontliners and it doesn't seem popular in the thread. If recreating our current designs, mostly creates a DP cost or only minor DP gain.

Would be very strong with very specific ship design still. Stacking 4-5, or even 3 expensive ones, of the same Weapon Type frees up a lot of DP.

[] Battle Fleet Carrier Focus
Straight up simple buff cutting costs for Lance/High Tech with no tricky downsides. Since Autoloaders are High Tech this is exactly what we asked for, but doesn't give the option for big buffs to specific classes/designs like other Doctrines do.

[] Skirmish Carrier Focus
Kinda cool but I'm not sure we'd have the spare DP to slap Prow Weapons on top of our existing designs that are working for us. The Sagi-successors and similar would love this but theres no love for Sagi-S, we have 5 in the whole fleet and Carrier Escorts would probably prefer turrets and not use the extra Prow range. For most ships the Length/Width costs increase is no big deal.

[] Barrage Carrier Focus
I love missile swarms but this would force our next gen ships into very specific designs. No Missile Weapon discount. Equipment affected is Missile Swarms (1 DP still), Missile Stores (1 DP still), BESH (3->2 DP), Macross Massacre (4->3 DP) , maybe Snapshot Targeting (3-2 DP?), maybe Auto-Loaders(2->1 DP?). Saves 2-4 DP on full missile equipment ships, punishes other ships.

[] Cutting Edge Carrier Focus
Big action cost downside with needed design actions every 150 years. Doesn't really give us much that we want that Battle Fleet Carrier wouldn't.

Not sure how to vote TBH, Battle Fleet is straightforward winner but Carrier Battle Group and Crusader Fleet could be very strong.
 
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If next gen Scorpio wants Torpedoes + Missiles alongside the mandatory Hangar again it'll be rough. (Nevermind, Torp and Missile are same type, Scorp loves this.) Sagi-S loves it, Leo's guns love it but the 2 DP Hangar cuts a lot of that joy away. Gets better with more weapon stacking (which I approve of) but not a lot of our ships do that so far, its hard to fit in frontliners and it doesn't seem popular in the thread. If recreating our current designs, mostly creates a DP cost or only minor DP gain.

Would be very strong with very specific ship design still. Stacking 4-5, or even 3 expensive ones, of the same Weapon Type frees up a lot of DP.
Yeah, with it we should design the ships differently when it comes time to update.
[X] Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus


And a meme-y navy name.
[X] [NAVY] Liechtensteins Kriegsmarine
 
[X] Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus
No mandatory Hangars makes this potentially nuts. Heavy Hangar effectively 1.5 DP. (edit: If its 3 DP base or effectively 1 if we retain the carrier discounts and its 2 DP base, I think we retain the discounts)

Battle Fleet will win because everyone can agree its good but man Crusader Fleet would give us some crazy ships.

[X] [COMMAND] The Pentagram
[X] [NAVY] The Star Force
 
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Also, other general question for @HeroCooky and others.

SV has a Omake contest going, and I think I've got 4 Omakes that qualify, though the first 3 are technically from before the opening but under my reading of the contest rules are still eligible.
A Legacy of War
Friends Among the Thules
The Garden Built Under A Noble Houses Ambitions
Open Faith, Hidden Bolter

I can only submit one. Does anybody have an opinion on which one is best? I quite like Friends Among the Thules, but I'm willing to take suggestions. And maybe I'll decide to write something new.
 
Leo-Class Vanguard Cruiser
-Length - 5.000m
-Width - 800m
-Acceleration - 3 Gravities
-Armor - Thick Bulwark Hull
-Shields - Three Lattices
-Weapons - 1x Medium Boarding Hangar/3x Heavy Rotary Macrocannon Turrets (Total: 36 Boarding Craft)
-Equipment - Armored Lifepods/Ship Shrines/Autoloaders/Strict Pilot Training/Veteran Pilot Gene-Lines/Advanced Alloys/Superior Gravimetric Engine Calculations/Yeeni Auxillary Engineer Division

Is the current Leo if we go Crusader Fleet Carrier Focus the following changes to the DP cost happen:
the guns go from 12 to 6 DP
The hangar is no longer required so that saves 3 DP(one for the hangar, 2 for the hangar related equipment)
2 DP is needed for it to have equipment
1 DP is saved from autoloader costing only 1 due the penalty being removed
Net change: +8 DP that can be spend on the next version.
 
[X] [NAVY] The Classem Lucis Aeternae
[X] [COMMAND] Primi Principes Lucis

Remember to vote for Navy and Command names, lest we get bland as hell names

Missile and Torps are Low Tech.
Weird, that's not what you told me:

What about Missiles and Torpedoes? Are they Low Tech or are they somewhat in the middle area where they count as neither?
But if you do want to change that I understand since otherwise you're just left with basic Macrocannons as the only ones being taxed. After all, that relevant doctrine is meant to apply those discounts and cost increases for Heavy Cruisers+ so we can still make it work for our lighter ships. It will just be our big boy (or girl, or non-binary) ships will lean towards being either Lances or Rotary/Plasma Macrocannons
 
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