Yeah so far, the remedial classes and outlines of our own simplifications for the Creed (Vesca's idea) seems to be the best path to take. Feel like specifically using the two heresies here as examples of "close but actually just Trinitarian Heresies" could stomp these guys out somewhat.
Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)
- Thread starter HeroCooky
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[] Practical Theology
-[] These heresies are wrong, and yet it cannot be said that they are evil. What must be done is two-fold. First, there is the population at large that must be led towards wiser views. Second, and even more importantly, it is the leadership, especially religious leadership, that must be even more clear on the matter.
-[] Create a document, introductory and ably understood by the layperson even before the education drives of the last decades, that explains the difference between Particularism, Anti-Particularism, and Orthodoxy, and allow the teaching of it further with Sunday schools or ties in with temples and so on.
-[] Explain Particularism and state its greatest flaw: a "co-equal hierarchy" implies or can imply a segregation of persons or a support for hierarchy, held not in belief of Particularism--which is a mistake but one that should not be punished except by correction--but in the implication of the beliefs of Particularism.
--[] It is the case that there is a (rather weak, but present) correlation between a defense of Hierarchy or an invocation of Difference, albeit within the bounds of the Federation's politics, and Particularism.
-[] Explain Anti-Particuarlism and state its greatest flaw: a lack of uniqueness raises questions then on the existence of horizontal association, and indeed there is a (rather weak, but present) correlation between worries about free association leading to tyranny and Anti-Particularism.
--[] Once again, most are fine, but this is an incorrect reading. Those found out are to be suggested towards educational resources and given the words of Teelin himself on the matter, spoken many centuries ago... but no more than that.
-[] Explain the Orthodox perspective, which is that in one sense we lack the tools to obtain the knowledge that both Particularists and Anti-Particularists so confidently state. That is to say, the Orthodox position is a safe and sane compromise, because at this stage even the most learned person is not the Star Child. Knowledge should ever-advance, but the hubris to assume that because all might be known, all IS known, is a sort of heresy. Thus embrace that on this, we do not yet understand, and that if a time comes when we do it may be revisited... but that such an understanding will not be easily obtained.
-[] These documents are to be freely and widely distributed, and are to be common material.
-[] This educational push, combined with a convocation and a propaganda push, are not going to eliminate either heresy, but it might well defuse them and reduce the dangers and likely will decrease their overall numbers.
-[] Secondly, a push is made to make sure that all missionaries are Orthodox rather than Particularist and Anti-Particularist, and that the beliefs spreading on Voxx Primus and the Families are fully within the Orthodoxy, and that there is not at the highest levels any sort of mistake therein.
--[] In a deep bit of historical irony, when combined with their experience of religion under the Imperium and the importance of believing the right things, the baffling reality is that the most fully and entirely Orthodox System in the entire Galaxy is, after these reforms are pushed... Voxx Primus.
-[] These heresies are wrong, and yet it cannot be said that they are evil. What must be done is two-fold. First, there is the population at large that must be led towards wiser views. Second, and even more importantly, it is the leadership, especially religious leadership, that must be even more clear on the matter.
-[] Create a document, introductory and ably understood by the layperson even before the education drives of the last decades, that explains the difference between Particularism, Anti-Particularism, and Orthodoxy, and allow the teaching of it further with Sunday schools or ties in with temples and so on.
-[] Explain Particularism and state its greatest flaw: a "co-equal hierarchy" implies or can imply a segregation of persons or a support for hierarchy, held not in belief of Particularism--which is a mistake but one that should not be punished except by correction--but in the implication of the beliefs of Particularism.
--[] It is the case that there is a (rather weak, but present) correlation between a defense of Hierarchy or an invocation of Difference, albeit within the bounds of the Federation's politics, and Particularism.
-[] Explain Anti-Particuarlism and state its greatest flaw: a lack of uniqueness raises questions then on the existence of horizontal association, and indeed there is a (rather weak, but present) correlation between worries about free association leading to tyranny and Anti-Particularism.
--[] Once again, most are fine, but this is an incorrect reading. Those found out are to be suggested towards educational resources and given the words of Teelin himself on the matter, spoken many centuries ago... but no more than that.
-[] Explain the Orthodox perspective, which is that in one sense we lack the tools to obtain the knowledge that both Particularists and Anti-Particularists so confidently state. That is to say, the Orthodox position is a safe and sane compromise, because at this stage even the most learned person is not the Star Child. Knowledge should ever-advance, but the hubris to assume that because all might be known, all IS known, is a sort of heresy. Thus embrace that on this, we do not yet understand, and that if a time comes when we do it may be revisited... but that such an understanding will not be easily obtained.
-[] These documents are to be freely and widely distributed, and are to be common material.
-[] This educational push, combined with a convocation and a propaganda push, are not going to eliminate either heresy, but it might well defuse them and reduce the dangers and likely will decrease their overall numbers.
-[] Secondly, a push is made to make sure that all missionaries are Orthodox rather than Particularist and Anti-Particularist, and that the beliefs spreading on Voxx Primus and the Families are fully within the Orthodoxy, and that there is not at the highest levels any sort of mistake therein.
--[] In a deep bit of historical irony, when combined with their experience of religion under the Imperium and the importance of believing the right things, the baffling reality is that the most fully and entirely Orthodox System in the entire Galaxy is, after these reforms are pushed... Voxx Primus.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The idea that the end result of all of this is that Orthodoxy becomes more common in the Federation (y'know, more 60 or 70 than 50) but that neither Heresy disappear forever... but that Voxx Primus by the policy of making sure heresy isn't spread via missionaries, becomes the most Orthodox of all possible planets in the Droman Creed is... so fucking funny to me.
I want this to happen so much, holy shit.
I want this to happen so much, holy shit.
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
The first.
The Cog, lmao.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The first.
The Cog, lmao.
Oh... that definitely doesn't make me worry.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
God we are like the Trinity in Christianity, except in our eternal decadence, we have FIVE parts not three. We are the SUPER TRINITY.
The Pentarchy, if you will.
The Pentarchy, if you will.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
The first.
The Cog, lmao.
Didn't you tell us that wasn't the Chaos Heresy?
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
RIP Chaos, then.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
Murrrrrrh
I am squinting at this post, but cannot refute it.
The Cog, lmao.
I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
Well. Good that we dealt with that then. Yeah they aren't completely gone but they're well under control.
Kufufu
Adequate at best
- Location
- What's it to ya?
Well. Thats...certainly a way to get one over us.I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Chaos running around teaching people trinitarian heresies. smh.
Probably masterminded to mess stuff up and then the conspirator went and opened a can of star-whoopass and so the cult kind of continued on it's merry way.I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
Sounds good to me! Make a page that every forum poster can link as a dunk whenever somebody starts getting too particularist and that solves about half the problem. Build the bit about "all can be known, but not all is known" into childhood classrooms, it's a good lesson, even beyond theology.
We've got two actions on this. It should be enough to spread this knowledge far and wide and make the particularists and anti-particularists into laughing stocks and the butts of jokes. Maybe add something about introducing a bunch of jokes about people overthinking it either direction, so it really enters the common consciousness?
I'm glad we did both on the same turn.
Technicalities as always is the best thing that Chaos does.I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
That man knew more than just how to pet a bunny.I like the implication (from the fact that these Heresies only popped up after his death) that Teeln was such a great religious leader that nobody fell into quintitarian heresy by accident while he was alive
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
Damn, Cerberus is really panicking over the 40k equivalent of the Filioque controversy. Or the Nestorian controversy. Or the monothelite controversy. Or the myriad of other useless controversies and paradoxes that arise when you try to put human words on the nature of the divine.
It's funny because they keep saying "these heresies are so close to the Droman Creed that people can't distinguish them!" which should be a strong signal that this is a load of hot air lmao
Just legalize these two and be done with it!
It's funny because they keep saying "these heresies are so close to the Droman Creed that people can't distinguish them!" which should be a strong signal that this is a load of hot air lmao
Just legalize these two and be done with it!
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
First off, that was a serious controversy of deep ramifications! You are underestimating and misunderstanding the deep and lasting importance of the Filoque controversy and its implications on the Star Child Faith. [1/555]
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I am really out of my wheelhouse when it comes to this Mad Theological Bullshit, I'm much more in my element figuring out tactics and general broad strokes stuff.
Here's hoping cleaning out our Heresies has some nice benefits that are immediately relevant rather than only apparent years after the fact!
Here's hoping cleaning out our Heresies has some nice benefits that are immediately relevant rather than only apparent years after the fact!
- Pronouns
- They/Them
But yeah, to clarify how deeply this goes, within a day or two after I made the Droman Creed, I PM'd @HeroCooky on Discord and highlighted the broad-brush overview of Particularism and Anti-Particularism as cool heresies that would absolutely exist.
I've been waiting something like 650-ish years/three or four months for this!
I've been waiting something like 650-ish years/three or four months for this!
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
For real though, this is dangerous. The result of these controversies was the splintering of the early Roman Church into Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Nestorian, etc Churches, each with virtually identical credos BUT hating each other deeply. It became a matter of identity, and it led to the brutal repression of otherwise faithful christians, and thus a lot of resentment that weakened the Empire and arguably made the Arab conquest of Egypt and Syria much easier.
This is what will happen if we listen to the alarmists at Cerberus. Pointless repression, sectarian violence and favorable ground for more radical cults to rise.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Droman Creed wikipedia when?
An official body of literature by our best theologians addressing common questions, heresies, issues, etc.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ESmHv2h50s
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- Location
- Goose Land
I said they aren't Chaos. I didn't say they weren't made by or for Chaos.
I like the implication that we took a Chaos Plot, said "Damn, you have a point", and essentially invented government therapy resources and career services centers to try to address the underlying bits of psychological discontent and disaffection developing within our population. Oh and we also then decided to fund research into the thing they were advocating for.
I kinda wish more Chaos Plots happened like that, assuming my understanding of the results of us addressing the Cog are correct?
- Location
- Belgium
The wonders of government policy set by