I think that we could also start a crusade against few genocidal countries to expand our colonisation options... Oh fuck I just used expand living space as on of justifications to invade someone... I need to lay down
Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)
- Thread starter HeroCooky
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
God, Dismantling a hive, Hard task. IMO the way I see it , dismantling a Hive can be split into 4 stages
Step one would be the creation of enforced lawful zones that Distributes Food, Medicine and such, because exerting influence over the WHOLE hive is impossible, Meaning we are better off with essentially setting up Neighborhoods/Military occupations zones and venturing from them to maintain control. The hard part would be the sheer amount of such required, and Hives gangs are not unfamiliar with waging war on a Police force, so we would have to expect that these points might literally come under siege by malcontents and Hiver gangs for a laundry list of reasons. Through these points we can work to establish Lawful occupation, distributing food and medicine in exchange for idk enrolling in a garrison/militia to help prop this structure up? that gives the Hive population a way to engage with us for extra food/ luxury items, While being a familiar idea to them and being just about the nly thing they really HAVE for trade.
After these Lawful zones are established, we can move to stage 2, Which would be Moving families and people OUT and expanding the influence of these lawless zones, Essentially Lancing the boil that is a hive city by drawing out the puss/People. Given the sheer numbers we are looking at, their is only so many people that we can reasonably move to diffrent planets that aare already inhabited, meaning we will probably have to initiate colonization of one or two planets to have enough places to actually PUT everyone.
Stage 3, Would hopefully begin after everyone who was willing to leave did, leaving the population that just... either doesn't want to move, Are genestealer cultists, Or are horrible people. With the majority of the population gone, we can Set up smaller cities on a diffrent part of the surface to hopefully attact the people who don't trust etting on a ship, and then start looting the hive to the ground, taking every bit of valuables and purging anything dangerous that still remains IN the hive before
Stage 4, Shatter it. A hive city is a sprawling labryth that provides the perfect place for gribblies to hide and grow, or cults to gather. Keeping it cleared on the regular with its sheer size and sprawling nature would be the group of... maybe more then 1 SAG in truth, as such, we would be better off Blowing it up, and using the remains of the shattered remains as Gravel fill for construction so that nothing can use the tunnels and labyrinth to grow.
Step one would be the creation of enforced lawful zones that Distributes Food, Medicine and such, because exerting influence over the WHOLE hive is impossible, Meaning we are better off with essentially setting up Neighborhoods/Military occupations zones and venturing from them to maintain control. The hard part would be the sheer amount of such required, and Hives gangs are not unfamiliar with waging war on a Police force, so we would have to expect that these points might literally come under siege by malcontents and Hiver gangs for a laundry list of reasons. Through these points we can work to establish Lawful occupation, distributing food and medicine in exchange for idk enrolling in a garrison/militia to help prop this structure up? that gives the Hive population a way to engage with us for extra food/ luxury items, While being a familiar idea to them and being just about the nly thing they really HAVE for trade.
After these Lawful zones are established, we can move to stage 2, Which would be Moving families and people OUT and expanding the influence of these lawless zones, Essentially Lancing the boil that is a hive city by drawing out the puss/People. Given the sheer numbers we are looking at, their is only so many people that we can reasonably move to diffrent planets that aare already inhabited, meaning we will probably have to initiate colonization of one or two planets to have enough places to actually PUT everyone.
Stage 3, Would hopefully begin after everyone who was willing to leave did, leaving the population that just... either doesn't want to move, Are genestealer cultists, Or are horrible people. With the majority of the population gone, we can Set up smaller cities on a diffrent part of the surface to hopefully attact the people who don't trust etting on a ship, and then start looting the hive to the ground, taking every bit of valuables and purging anything dangerous that still remains IN the hive before
Stage 4, Shatter it. A hive city is a sprawling labryth that provides the perfect place for gribblies to hide and grow, or cults to gather. Keeping it cleared on the regular with its sheer size and sprawling nature would be the group of... maybe more then 1 SAG in truth, as such, we would be better off Blowing it up, and using the remains of the shattered remains as Gravel fill for construction so that nothing can use the tunnels and labyrinth to grow.
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We should probably boost food production just in case should soften the blow of the sudden population influx while we relocate them.
[] [Yeeni] While the Yeeni have (arguably) not preformed the "extraordinary deeds" required of them, they have shown that they are enthusiastic and competent as they walk in the Star Child's light. So I say we give them the opportunity. Let them serve in first line military positions, let them learn our crafts, and let them take the orders. Perhaps not so freely as true kin… yet. And, should they handle such ably? Then make them kin in full. They have given us a century of companionship, hard work and faith. We can extend this much trust. (Essentially give them a trial period as kin, say 25 years (because Star child) and if no issues crop up then they're kin in full).
[] [Kin Laws] Extraordinary deeds are to be rewarded, but so is loyal and consistent work. If a protectorate performs ably for 100 years, they are to be given a 25 year trial period as kin, observed closely for problems. At the end of this period, should there be no major problems, they shall be kin in full. Obviously, extraordinary deeds (as with the Kir'dabi) can shorten or remove this constraint.
[] [Kin Laws] Extraordinary deeds are to be rewarded, but so is loyal and consistent work. If a protectorate performs ably for 100 years, they are to be given a 25 year trial period as kin, observed closely for problems. At the end of this period, should there be no major problems, they shall be kin in full. Obviously, extraordinary deeds (as with the Kir'dabi) can shorten or remove this constraint.
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The other problem I am noticing in the long term is that we have colonized every planet that we have(at least the ones that can be considered habitable). So....yeah that's an issue on the whole "We can move them to empty planets" thing.
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- Goose Land
Creating some population vent worlds that would still be in massive crisis but not 700 Billion People crisis, trying to spread and prepare the rest of our planets to absorb the rest of the weight, and then provide jobs designed to directly solve the problem, seems like a potential solution, or at least stop gap?
Q's Forge has two purple planets/whatevers in it, Primus has the one world, Secondus has three.
If we terraform Forge and properly build up Secondus and Primus...
Can we earmark them as "Orbital Infrastructure Worlds" and try to direct their industry towards straight out making the space needed, and then try to emigrate populations so the six planets each hold roughly 100 Billion People, with the remaining 100 Billion People being spread around the rest of the Federation?
Six planets of 100 Billion would still be a massive crisis, but it's still more managable I think, especially if we prepare five of those six ahead of time?
And if we snipe Echish and fortify that as our new Border Planet against the Vons, that'll give us some more military leeway as long as we can hold it.
We'll want to see if we can't deliberately create more Organizations that have their own Progress Tickers though, designed to address a lot of these specific issues.
Though I wonder, would "30 action time crunch to save 700 Billion People" be a worthwhile emergency to active our "Fuck It We Ball" mode?
Because if we can even halve that time, that would do a lot of things.
Q's Forge has two purple planets/whatevers in it, Primus has the one world, Secondus has three.
If we terraform Forge and properly build up Secondus and Primus...
Can we earmark them as "Orbital Infrastructure Worlds" and try to direct their industry towards straight out making the space needed, and then try to emigrate populations so the six planets each hold roughly 100 Billion People, with the remaining 100 Billion People being spread around the rest of the Federation?
Six planets of 100 Billion would still be a massive crisis, but it's still more managable I think, especially if we prepare five of those six ahead of time?
And if we snipe Echish and fortify that as our new Border Planet against the Vons, that'll give us some more military leeway as long as we can hold it.
We'll want to see if we can't deliberately create more Organizations that have their own Progress Tickers though, designed to address a lot of these specific issues.
Though I wonder, would "30 action time crunch to save 700 Billion People" be a worthwhile emergency to active our "Fuck It We Ball" mode?
Because if we can even halve that time, that would do a lot of things.
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- Pee Pee Poo Poo
There's space in the wastes, maybe the Irrita can terraform those areas and we can work things out with the mutants living there, that way we can spread the population out around the planet, maybe build or rework the hives into our version of arcologies. And work on some local food production if the wastes get terraformed.
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
No, that Action needs the full 30 to be paid by you.
...but seriously, that is a 30 Actions Action, it's not serious.
...I had a very dark joke here, but that is too easy even for me.
I'm all on sending the Billions of people to other worlds, but how would we get them to not revolt, because they are the guys that think its wrong to be able to have a good house or that its a sin to not work till your body is exhausted, like for us to rip and tear those thoughts that are ingrained in them will be hard and will cost a lot of actions, my hope is if we can do a song that can help speed the process of turning them into normal people that can in fact have a happy day once in their lives.
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I think people are misunderstanding the fundamental nature of what a victory would even be.
If we're winning by backing up a revolt, then there are billions or tens of billions of people revolting, and hundreds of billions further who are at worst neutral on us.[1] Those billions of people are in fact on our side and seizing power!
[1] In any revolution, most/a majority people don't participate, but that doesn't mean they are against the revolution, because neutrality rather than support of the ruling regime is itself a telling statement!
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Hmm...maybe we should have a conversation with the Ashan families about deeper integration. It is becoming rapidly apparent that Voxx is one of the situations where we need worlds or we need a 30 Action Project...not that I am against the latter
Will we be meeting a polity callend landpo soon?...I had a very dark joke here, but that is too easy even for me.
Why integration?
Conversion!
Reminder, they are a kleptocracy like russia, our relationship is profitable, not friendship.
I think we need to accept that unfucking a Hive World is going to be a work of centuries and look into finding a way to make living there non-awful at least. Hiring Irrita to rebuild it's biosphere is one, but we can also try to repair the Hives themselves - yes, they are misery engines right now (apparently exactly what Heresy-era High Lords wanted, according to lore), but many of them a built on the bones of DAoT-era arcologies.
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@HeroCooky how many people live on Candle Station and in the series of space stations at End of Line?
Uuugh, Looking over the maps, We don't have any easy colonization prospects. All of them are either gated by... our allies, or the post imperial powers that are in the middle of genociding minor xenos.
Hmm, we could probably set up a way to get new land, fake care of the post imperial neighbors who we find abhorrent And get née planets to colonize. If we set up some form of concription program that gives participants families immigration rights to some of the nicer planets of the glimmering federation, we could form a massive military influx. That influx would probably give us enough manpower to offset the strength of the knight houses without gutting our militaries, which would open up a push into island to claim the uninhibited worlds of oq and oqo, not to mention knight world's tend towards fuedal, meaning the world's of black ash should have plenty of spare room once modern farming is added.
To cap it off, this would hopefully take place fast enough to save whatever remains of the xenos species black ash was xenociding.
EDIT: If we don't do something drastic like that, we will probably have to commit to a multi-turn project to actually move and settle the 24 billion people per planet, while occupying the hive to maintain control and food distribution. Their is not good way to do this. Hives are fucked.
Hmm, we could probably set up a way to get new land, fake care of the post imperial neighbors who we find abhorrent And get née planets to colonize. If we set up some form of concription program that gives participants families immigration rights to some of the nicer planets of the glimmering federation, we could form a massive military influx. That influx would probably give us enough manpower to offset the strength of the knight houses without gutting our militaries, which would open up a push into island to claim the uninhibited worlds of oq and oqo, not to mention knight world's tend towards fuedal, meaning the world's of black ash should have plenty of spare room once modern farming is added.
To cap it off, this would hopefully take place fast enough to save whatever remains of the xenos species black ash was xenociding.
EDIT: If we don't do something drastic like that, we will probably have to commit to a multi-turn project to actually move and settle the 24 billion people per planet, while occupying the hive to maintain control and food distribution. Their is not good way to do this. Hives are fucked.
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HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
Around ~1 billion and ~50 million people. The first is your capital, after all.
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Would it be an all or nothing action, or one of the actions where each X invested provides a benefit? (Like... every six is +1 to the relevant industries + X billion people or something)
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Reposting the updated version:
[] [Voxx Primuse Afterplan] Plan: A Balanced Breakfast
-[] First, we must begin to create and expand space stations. What was done with Defense Stations, such at a level beyond belief, can be done with human habitation. Yet this alone will not be enough.
-[] Second, we must truly and fully continue upon completion the research of even further crops capable of growing in Hives (or Ex-Hives), and their integration. This Hive World must become increasingly self-sufficient, even if this means that space must be cleared which will necessitate decreases in the total population (see below). Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[ ] Means: Speak with the Irritia, you have a burgeoning humanitarian problem that's likely to pop, and you want to take the steps needed to minimize the issues. Do they have any insights on very, very high density food growing? Or barring that, how to produce large amounts of food in space?
-[] Third, emmigration is not a possibility but a necessity. While we cannot possibly house the whole of the population, depopulating Voxx Primus, even a drop of one, two, or perhaps at a very distant strength three hundred billion in the system--whether on planets or whether on new space stations--could be transformative. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: While we are here at a Constitutional Convention, create modest (definitely compared to SDF and SAG budget concerns) requirements to invest in expanded housing, and the creation of infrastructure to allow to both better house those who are already there but also be ready for immigration if need be.
-[] Fourth, we need to encourage safe and humane birth-limits, tied specifically to capacity to raise children to a good standard of living, and coinciding with a propaganda campaign to encourage a different mindset of concentrating resources and efforts, at least until the population is under control. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: As a provision now, while the larger campaign waits, make birth control readily available to the Star Child population on Voxx Primus, and begin education in Family Planning, and specifically the drive to have kids only when you can make sure they will have a good (by whatever is standard atm) quality of living. Etc, etc. Sewing small seeds for later situations, and hopefully making sure those who are born are loved, planned for, and more liable not to die in childhood.
-[] Fifth, we must remember that through the Star Child all things are possible, so jot that down. Through prayer to the Star Child for deliverence, and the study of such Melodies as Health, Compassion, the Home, and Family (which may aid in the 4th if used right), and the performance of unique Songs... we may yet bring salvation unto not just seven-hundred billion, but to the trillions that will yet live under the light of the Five. This, TOGETHER, will suffice!
[] [Voxx Primuse Afterplan] Plan: A Balanced Breakfast
-[] First, we must begin to create and expand space stations. What was done with Defense Stations, such at a level beyond belief, can be done with human habitation. Yet this alone will not be enough.
-[] Second, we must truly and fully continue upon completion the research of even further crops capable of growing in Hives (or Ex-Hives), and their integration. This Hive World must become increasingly self-sufficient, even if this means that space must be cleared which will necessitate decreases in the total population (see below). Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[ ] Means: Speak with the Irritia, you have a burgeoning humanitarian problem that's likely to pop, and you want to take the steps needed to minimize the issues. Do they have any insights on very, very high density food growing? Or barring that, how to produce large amounts of food in space?
-[] Third, emmigration is not a possibility but a necessity. While we cannot possibly house the whole of the population, depopulating Voxx Primus, even a drop of one, two, or perhaps at a very distant strength three hundred billion in the system--whether on planets or whether on new space stations--could be transformative. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: While we are here at a Constitutional Convention, create modest (definitely compared to SDF and SAG budget concerns) requirements to invest in expanded housing, and the creation of infrastructure to allow to both better house those who are already there but also be ready for immigration if need be.
-[] Fourth, we need to encourage safe and humane birth-limits, tied specifically to capacity to raise children to a good standard of living, and coinciding with a propaganda campaign to encourage a different mindset of concentrating resources and efforts, at least until the population is under control. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: As a provision now, while the larger campaign waits, make birth control readily available to the Star Child population on Voxx Primus, and begin education in Family Planning, and specifically the drive to have kids only when you can make sure they will have a good (by whatever is standard atm) quality of living. Etc, etc. Sewing small seeds for later situations, and hopefully making sure those who are born are loved, planned for, and more liable not to die in childhood.
-[] Fifth, we must remember that through the Star Child all things are possible, so jot that down. Through prayer to the Star Child for deliverence, and the study of such Melodies as Health, Compassion, the Home, and Family (which may aid in the 4th if used right), and the performance of unique Songs... we may yet bring salvation unto not just seven-hundred billion, but to the trillions that will yet live under the light of the Five. This, TOGETHER, will suffice!
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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- Present
One important thing to consider here is that that is 700 billion now.
Now, may HeroCookie correct me if I am wrong, but I strongly suspect that right now, the child mortality rate on this planet is somewhere north of 50%. That means, that even if we manage to reduce reproduction rates to 1 child/parent within a generation, we're still going to see the population double, if not triple. The mere fact that we're aiming for children not to starve to death means the population will explode, not decline. Not unless we manage mass, draconian reproductive controls.
So, realistically, we should either of 2 things
- Sustain a population of 2 trillion souls
- Achieve 75% civilian casualty numbers during the revolt.
Anyway, here's my thoughts
Step 1) Commit to the delegation of choirs to the civilian merchant fleet, in a new reorganized transport system. This system would focus on utilizing a small number of andromedas (10 => 30 by the end of the program) to carry around large freighters in the 10 km scale. This massive improvement in transportation capacity should provide a massive amount of slack, as well as a tremendous amount of obsolete hulls.
Step 2) Create a voluntary, recruitment drive for "semi-obsolete" ships. Stuff that still flies, but isn't really worth it anymore. These should either be converted or disassembled into orbital greenhouse facilities or orbital granaries
Step 3) Contact the Irrata, and try to acquire as much nutrient food stuff as possible. Stuff the ships from step 2 full with it.
Step 4) Smuggle Irrata grown plants as well as mass servitorization equipment into the Hive. The goal is to set up a self expanding servitor/greenhouse facility underneath the existing underhive. Use the death for hte hard labor required, pay the rest with food.
Step 5) At some point, try to come up with a plan to take the Agriworlds as well as the ships that ply the trade between the hiveworld and the other planets. We're going to need that
Step 6) Make contacts within the upper hive. We kinda need a coup, not a civil war.
Step 7) Once everything goes up, take a huge chunk of our overgrown civilian fleet, the agricultural reserve fleet, and whatever stuff we have lying around, and drop it all as a massive orbital foodsupply system on the hive
Step 8) Accept that evacuating a Hiveworld is infeasible, and just use the massive industrial potential of the people on the planet, to fix it.
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We could try expanding into the Macrabe Subsector by focusing on subverting the Asian Families so they flip to us then start rolling up the other systems there. Then there's the Black Ash Clans we could also try doing something with to try converting them, then we need to figure out how to deal with the Black Cat Company to get to the Croat Hegemony which sounds like the kind of people we could punch in the face.
This is definitely the bones of a good plan, but I have some strong opinions about various parts of it that.
First, I think planning some kind of specific population control is a terrible idea. Not only are explicit birth limits draconian measures that will almost certainly be impossible to enforce, trying will make people resentful and will absolutely spawn a few more heresies and potentially an outright insurgency. Maybe a song avoids this, but not the next problem. Because, population control measures cause an inverted population pyramid, where you have more old people than young people, which absolutely crushes a nation's productivity. I can cite academic sources on this.
The better way to bring a population under control is just straight-up increasing quality of life & education. Birth control is a part of that, but not necessarily explicitly. I think intentionally making birth control available early and easily is a good strategy to get the outcome we want (of a stable rather than exploding population) but we can't try to manually decrease the population size without triggering ISSUES.
So, what do we actually do? Well, it's going to be a lot of small things.
1. Building space stations is a great idea. I'm wondering if we might try to do a write-in to automate building living space. Something like the current automation plan but a bit larger. Maybe it builds 5 100-million stations every turn or something, distributed across our territory. Maybe it's an ISC we can create when we get to CIV XV to make more housing, then it just occupies one of our two slots for the next twenty turns.
2. Asking the Irrita is inspired. I think we want to leave it open-ended. Something about "We're going to have this problem (hundreds of billions of people to house and feed) in a couple hundred years. Is there anything you can do to help? Food infrastructure, terraform, new living space communities. Definitely ask what would be a sufficient payment for this help as well.
3. I think we should broaden this to the Shipwright's Alliance and the Mashan Temple Authority. Basically ask them if they would take any refugees or have other technologies or capabilities that would help with this problem.
4. Good idea about integration for sure. We should have each planet start making plans to take in what they can. A billion here, a billion there. It will be difficult, it will stress our society, but it's a necessary part of the solution.
5. I like the idea of helping stabilize things with our faith, but I'm not sure there's much the psykers can do. A population control song is a longer-term solution, but it doesn't do much in the short term. @HeroCooky Is there a song that might replace/reduce the need for calories across a population?
6. We should definitely plan to take those Agri-worlds in the short term, to keep things stable. I'm down for infiltrating them in the buildup to the final Voxx capture.
7. We shouldn't just plan for living space and food, but general living standards. We need to boost their general education, health and living standards up, either on Voxx or farther away. Figuring out more civilian manufactories, health infrastructure and other requirements and then getting them done needs to be an important part of what we do.
I swear I had more ideas when I started this post, but I've lost them now. It's a hard problem, but if we can actually integrate these people and boost them up to our quality of life. I actually think the best thing to do is to get to CIV XV, then get more ISCs and boost Food & Health infrastructure up to ten. Once we've built our fleet up to stability levels and are slowboating Voxx, hopefully we can buckle down and get all of that done. Here's a timeline:
Civ XV: 3 actions (Messenger ISC + 3 actions).
Food X: 6 actions (2 actions for new ISC + 4 actions)
Medical X: 7 actions (2 actions for new ISC + 5 actions).
So we could legitimately get all of that supporting infrastructure up with just a little bit more than 5 turns worth of effort. If we took the food/medical ISCs from our civ XV trait then it would be even faster. I think there's potential to make an ISC that can switch from boosting one infrastructure to another with an action.
Also, another point @Alectai What do you think of this argument? I think the van Zandt is specialized for getting in close and blowing up larger ships with torpedos and ramming, and that we should build a zillion small ships to counter that. Thoughts?
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... the Macabre Sector has all of its planets occupied. Like, yes, could they probably hold more population than they have, in the same way that our systems could as well? Yes.
But they're not virgin soil to use as a massive colonization outpost unless we commit literal actual genocide.
But they're not virgin soil to use as a massive colonization outpost unless we commit literal actual genocide.
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Because it would be nice to not fight through them? Conversion is already happening. Unless the plan is to like cause mass riots within their systems and cause a revolution. We just don't have the foreign masses option which makes slowly eating them via system defections very hard to do. Also I am counting on their planets on being as populated.
The thing is more...we have the planets to spread everyone out to, especially the newer planets, but dropping a colony of like 7 billion on a planet that had like 2 billion before-hand is a massive local culture shift. I just want to...diffuse the population more. The more planets we have the better ideally.
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Birth control is in fact a valuable thing? We can soften it up if there's objections, but we do in fact want to make reliable birth control widely available and encourage family planning.
As far as it goes, I do know about the productivity crash, but it's a HIVE world. The Productivity Crash from an inverting population will be easily balanced out and overawed by the increase from no longer being the shittiest, worst run thing in the entire Galaxy other than another Hive World
E: I have more to address about your specifics, but I wanted to start with the fullthroated objection.
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I'm fully in agreement that birth control is valuable, but my primary point is that birth limits are a mistake, and that birth control comes along with quality of life increases naturally. If we try to implement some sort of one-child policy it's both not going to work very well and probably kick off a heresy or three.