Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)

[Neablis]

Also, won't the Alliance get mad when they discover us mining Auramite?

Like, won't they feel cheated that the "consesion" we gave was in fact to our benefit?

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Telling them would be like playing poker and showing them your hand. Diplomacy like this is a contest, and the knowledge that there's auramite in Yivv is a hidden card we have access to.

Similarly, the data-archive in Murr may not even exist, they're just using it as pretext. Diplomacy can get dirty.

So, like, maybe don't commit ourselves to gymnastics in order to recruit a small set of worlds?

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This. If you let people take advantage of you in diplomacy, they will. The Shipwright's Alliance is really going for it here.

Also remember we can instead give them use of our messenger ISC for a turn instead, and that's still a large boon.

 

[Profilozof]

We want that one planet on Yivv because it's got Auramite, no more, no less.

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Yes, but I doubt others know it has auramite. Given that it is chaos-corrupted, having a planet nearby as a logistical/supply center is a good idea in my mind, which is why I want us to keep the planet the Tom (moon with Auramite) orbits.

As far as the Reconstruction offer goes, it's nice but obligating ourselves to do it when we've just begun the Voxx Primus campaign seems like it will absoutely strain our action economy, when HeroCooky has basically said we need to put an action towards it probably every two turns or so, roughly.

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Laurent, rebuilding cost us one single action; I asked our glorious QM about it. It isn't that expensive a commitment given that Voxx Primus is our only major concern at the moment. We won't strain our action economy over it, delay research by 1 turn, sure, but it won't break us. It gives us an in with 4 billion people who we will gain a chance to influence and who will have actions of their own, which could give us a boost if/when we annex them. This is an investment; even if our annexation of them will give us just one point of dev or 2 actions worth of fleet, it will be worth it.

 

[Amilia]

Telling them would be like playing poker and showing them your hand. Diplomacy like this is a contest, and the knowledge that there's auramite in Yivv is a hidden card we have access to.

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That's me arguing for keeping all of Yivv. If we give them a part and the Alliance finds out about the Auramite they'll probably get mad, or start demanding that we give up the rest of the system since they already have the other part of it.

Better to take all of it to keep the claims clear.

 

[Profilozof]

That's me arguing for keeping all of Yivv. If we give them a part and the Alliance finds out about the Auramite they'll probably get mad, or start demanding that we give up the rest of the system since they already have the other part of it.

Better to take all of it to keep the claims clear.

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While I partially agree. The way I phrased it in my vote is that we each get a planet and its moon. The wording emphasizes planets and our plan of testing ways to fight chaos and corruption on said moon. If we discover that there is something worth mining on the said moon after we invested time and money to cure it, well, that is just a happy coincidence.
Alliance first needs to find out what we are mining and it also needs to remember how auramite looks and that it is real.

 

[Amilia]

I think its best to keep the borders as clear cut as possible and that means no split systems at all.

We should only give part of Yivv as a last resort if they do not budge, not offer that from the get go.

 

[HeroCooky]

@HeroCooky do we even know that the Chaos Lord that had been leading 621 was the one that tried to infiltrate into the Tomb?

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Nope. As far as people know, that was just a Chaos Cultist/Sorceror doing...something.

And as far as your Military knows, the Chaos Lord of 621 is still alive, but got away.

@HeroCooky , what's the population of Kapion's Hope, by the way?

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About 1.6 Billion people.

 

[Professor Vesca]

Im not a fan of giving up any piece of Yriv if only because doing so will put their sights squarely on the part of the system we actually care about and I just dont wanna deal with that.

 

[Profilozof]

I think its best to keep the borders as clear cut as possible and that means no split systems at all.

We should only give part of Yivv as a last resort if they do not budge, not offer that from the get go.

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That is fair; it is the first round of diplomacy; giving material help to all of the planets that were turned into a wasteland could probably be enough, and giving half of the system could be used later if it is necessary. I kinda forgot that we don't have only one round to negotiate as long as we aren't dicks about it.

[] Plan: Good is not nice enough to allow you to spit on sacrifices
-[] Embassy exchange with both is good
-[] Trade also is good.
-[] Federation has no issues with the fate of Weznicritt and Kalikrax
-[] Support the Mashan Authority's compromise offer over Murrs.
-[] Say sorry to Mashan Authority; you meant no insult, just a worry over how your fellow men would act after being occupied by chaos. We experienced and foiled many of their plots after they successfully destroyed the subsector-wide power, Neon, after we defeated the chaos' regular forces. And using the experience you gained dealing with said collapse and corruption that followed you wanted to offer a hand to fellow sane power in the stars, so the post-war transition is easier. After all, victory on the battlefield is only the first part of a full triumph against chaos. After dealing with it once before, you have the infrastructure to help bring those on the verge of eternal damnation back into the light, and moving the survivors of chaos' madness wouldn't be a problem for you.
-[] In exchange for Yivv system Federation is ready to help Aliance rebuild the destruction of plants that have fallen to the forces of the great enemy.
-[] Given that locals of Zetraneum aren't interested in being colonised and Alliance didn't establish a long-term presence in the system Federation, sees claims of locals as more valid and is ready to defend their right to choose their own path as long as it doesn't involve chaos.
-[] The disregard of the ultimate sacrifice of [whatever number of people 31% of our ground forces is] is extremely distasteful, the dismissal of how crippling the logistics of the enemy, especially given their plans for the major ritual, is not something we expected of brave people who fought the Great Enemy for centuries.
-[] We are, of course, happy that they acknowledge the sacrifices of great warriors who are Lamenters; it would be outrageous if they didn't. But the Lamenters are warriors, and aside from tech marines, they aren't craftsmen; aside from one dreadnaught armour, every piece of armour, every neophyte, every bolter and every round came from the grateful Federation. Including the ships, they flew to the battle.

 

[Professor Vesca]

That is fair; it is the first round of diplomacy; giving material help to all of the planets that were turned into a wasteland could probably be enough, and giving half of the system could be used later if it is necessary. I kinda forgot that we don't have only one round to negotiate as long as we aren't dicks about it.

[] Plan: Good is not nice enough to allow you to spit on sacrifices
-[] Embassy exchange with both is good
-[] Trade also is good.
-[] Federation has no issues with the fate of Weznicritt and Kalikrax
-[] Support the Mashan Authority's compromise offer over Murrs.
-[] Say sorry to Mashan Authority; you meant no insult, just a worry over how your fellow men would act after being occupied by chaos. We experienced and foiled many of their plots after they successfully destroyed the subsector-wide power, Neon, after we defeated the chaos' regular forces. And using the experience you gained dealing with said collapse and corruption that followed you wanted to offer a hand to fellow sane power in the stars, so the post-war transition is easier and quicker. After all, victory on the battlefield is only the first part of a full triumph against chaos. After dealing with it once before, you have the infrastructure to help bring those on the verge of eternal damnation back into the light, and moving the survivors of chaos' madness wouldn't be a problem for you.
-[] In exchange for Yivv system Federation is ready to help Aliance rebuild the destruction of plants that have fallen to the forces of the great enemy.
-[] Given that locals of Zetraneum aren't interested in being colonised and Alliance didn't establish a long-term presence in the system Federation, sees claims of locals as more valid and is ready to defend their right to choose their own path as long as it doesn't involve chaos.
-[] The disregard of the ultimate sacrifice of [whatever number of people 31% of our ground forces is] is extremely distasteful, the dismissal of how crippling the logistics of the enemy, especially given their plans for the major ritual, is not something we expected of brave people who fought the Great Enemy for centuries.
-[] We are, of course, happy that they acknowledge the sacrifices of great warriors who are Lamenters; it would be outrageous if they didn't. But the Lamenters are warriors, and aside from techmarines, they aren't craftsmen; aside from one dreadnaught armour, every piece of armour, every bolter and every round was produced and given to them by the grateful Federation. Including the ships, they flew to the battle.

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I think we should elaborate more on the Lamenters.

Their gear comes from us.
Their workers are recruited from our population.
Their space marines are recruited from our population.
We build their ships.
We survived the Dark Mechanicum together. They may keep their own counsel, yes, but we are a package deal. Where we go, they go. Where they go, we will be there also. Their sacrifices are ours and ours are theirs. To imply that their sacrifices do not reflect on us or that our accomplishments do not reflect on them is ludicrous.

 

[Profilozof]

I think we should elaborate more on the Lamenters.

Their gear comes from us.
Their workers are recruited from our population.
Their space marines are recruited from our population.
We survived the Dark Mechanicum. They keep their own counsel, yes, but we are a package deal. Where we go, they go. Where they go, we will be there also. Their sacrifices are ours and ours are theirs.

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I probably wanted to put pressure on how logistics are as important as bloodshed, so us supplying Lammenters and harassing chaos should not be just waved away. Without it sounding like we own Lamenters because we don't we have a symbiotic relationship with them, but it is hard to find balance without offending Lamenters

 

[Professor Vesca]

I probably wanted to put pressure on how logistics are as important as bloodshed, so us supplying Lammenters and harassing chaos should not be just waved away. Without it sounding like we own Lamenters because we don't we have a symbiotic relationship with them, but it is hard to find balance without offending Lamenters

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No, but what I wanted to do is correct their understanding of our relationship with the Lamenters.

They understand the Lamenters as either our allies, or our subjects. What we are pushing back on is the reductive nature of our understanding. They may be autocephalous but we are joined at the hip. We are two heads of the same creature. To strike a Lamenter is to bruise a Glimmerling. Cut a Glimmerling and a Lamenter will bleed.

They may make their own choices, they may keep their own counsel, they may honor their own deals but they, the alliance and the temple, should not assume for a second that we are mere allies, our relationship is deeper and more intertwined then that of 'mere' allies or 'mere' subjects. Wherever they go or whatever they do, we wont be far behind them. Their voice is heard at the highest halls of power in the Federation, they sit in on our government after all.

We ride together or we die together. That is the pact we swore on Candle Keeper station all those centuries ago.

So they cant just clap back at us and say "But the Lamenters did all the work. They were the ones dying". No shit, thats what they do, but we were the ones backing them up and all they had to do was utter but a word and our fleets and our armies would be by their side, asking them "Hey, is this Chaos Lord bugging you?"

 

[Profilozof]

No, but what I wanted to do is correct their understanding of our relationship with the Lamenters.

They understand the Lamenters as either our allies, or our subjects. What we are pushing back on is the reductive nature of our understanding. They may be autocephalous but we are joined at the hip. We are two heads of the same creature. To strike a Lamenter is to bruise a Glimmerling. Cut a Glimmerling and a Lamenter will bleed.

They may make their own choices, they may keep their own counsel, they may honor their own deals but they, the alliance and the temple, should not assume for a second that we are mere allies, our relationship is deeper and more intertwined then that of 'mere' allies or 'mere' subjects. Wherever they go or whatever they do, we wont be far behind them.

We ride together or we die together. That is the pact we swore on Candle Keeper station all those centuries ago.

So they cant just clap back at us and say "But the Lamenters did all the work. They were the ones dying". No shit, thats what they do, but we were the ones backing them up and all they had to do was utter but a word and our fleets would be at their backs.

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Fair, I will probably add mention of all of the recruits coming from Federation (unless they got some recently while freeing/saving people in sector 621)

 

[Professor Vesca]

Fair, I will probably add mention of all of the recruits coming from Federation (unless they got some recently while freeing/saving people in sector 621)

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I'm also hamming it up. Just a little bit. Won't hurt us to exaggerate after all.

 

[The Laurent]

[] Plan: Yes, but Actually No, with Slightly More Generosity
-[] First, apologize to the Mashan delegation for the unintended insult. And give some context about why the Federation offered what it did (the general poor state of the galaxy in terms of shit being fucked). Then politely ask for trade contacts, especially with the context of our ISCs.
-[] Second, give context for the Federation's entry into the war into 621- the Neon Protectorate and its fall and the sheer slog that it had been to push through to 621, as well as outlining the fleet & ground force commitments that were made. In that context, we were a major player in the war.
-[] Third, explain the origin of the Federation and its relationship with the Lamenters space marine chapter, as well as our continued support of them over the centuries (including the provision of stealth ships to even reach the Shipwright's guild).
-[] Fourth, we killed a major chaos sorcerer as he tried to infiltrate our holy places.
-[] All of that said, Straight up refuse all demands for Yivv. Have the Temple Authority back you, or try to win their support in this. Similarly, Zentraneum is not theirs, even if it's not yours either in the sense of exploitation.
-[] The Alliance can have Kalikrax, and at least half of Weznicritt.
-[] Propose that each of the Temple Authority & Federation gain a world in Weznicritt, but in return offer an action done to help their reconstruction. The stated purpose here is to build up goodwill, knowledge and dependency to encourage harmonious existence and prevent war that would only hurt our peoples.
-[] Civilian Trade with Shipwright's is good, and should proceed.
-[] Embassy with both good.
-[] The Temple Authority can have Murrs, they've offered the better price, also suggest them backing our insistence on holding Yivv and the neutrality/protectorate stuff with Zentraneum, or at least try to use the agreement to surrender Murrs to them to spur cooperation.

Here's a version that's slightly more generous to them without any of this, like, "Feeling the desperate need to appease them for some reason" stuff.

 

[Profilozof]

(including the provision of stealth ships to even reach the Shipwright's guild).

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Maybe we shouldn't admit that we have stealth ships. just in case you know.

-[] Fourth, we killed a major chaos sorcerer as he tried to infiltrate our holy places.

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We in character don't know that he was a major sorcerer or even from subsector 621

Won't hurt us to exaggerate after all.

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it would, do not exaggerate, but go for drama. Make artist in glorious hawkboi proud.

 

[DecaffeinatedOwl]

I'm concerned about our ability to hold Yivv in the event of war with either the Mashan or the Shipwrights.

With the Mashans, our position is precarious--the task force in Avethread can threaten both Lethysan and Terrore, in either case cutting off our presence in the Sector, and also Yivv directly through the unstable route. We would be committed to taking Avethread from the outset of hostilities, or else having Yivv be resupplied from the Alliance until we could push back in.

With the Shipwrights, assuming the Mashans stay neutral, our position is better--it would be a straightforward fight down the Terrore-Zetraneum-Yivv-Weznicritt chain. I don't expect the Mashan to stay neutral if Auromite is important enough to fight over, however, and we would be badly hamstrung by Avethread again.

There's really two terrain features of note when it comes to war in 621. The unstable Kapion-Megoxura route makes the Shipwrights and Mashans mutually threaten their gate chains, and Avethread strongly threatens our gate chain while only cutting off Murrs if lost. Yivv-Avethread only becomes relevant if we remain neutral in an Alliance-Mashan war, as in any other case we will have either taken Avethread, or been pushed out of the sector and leaving the Mashans to attack down the TZYW chain.

To summarize, in the event of war against the Shipwrights, we need the Mashans at least neutral, and in the event of war against the Mashans, we need the Shipwrights at least allied with us.

We ride together or we die together. That is the pact we swore on Candle Keeper station all those centuries ago.

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If we want to say that, we really ought to drag the Lamenters into the conference and have them confirm that.

 

[The Laurent]

[] Plan: Yes, but Actually No, with Slightly More Generosity
-[] First, apologize to the Mashan delegation for the unintended insult. And give some context about why the Federation offered what it did (the general poor state of the galaxy in terms of shit being fucked). Then politely ask for trade contacts, especially with the context of our ISCs.
-[] Second, give context for the Federation's entry into the war into 621- the Neon Protectorate and its fall and the sheer slog that it had been to push through to 621, as well as outlining the fleet & ground force commitments that were made. In that context, we were a major player in the war.
-[] Third, explain the origin of the Federation and its relationship with the Lamenters space marine chapter, as well as our continued support of them over the centuries.
-[] All of that said, Straight up refuse all demands for Yivv. Have the Temple Authority back you, or try to win their support in this. Similarly, Zentraneum is not theirs, even if it's not yours either in the sense of exploitation.
-[] The Alliance can have Kalikrax, and at least half of Weznicritt.
-[] Propose that each of the Temple Authority & Federation gain a world in Weznicritt, but in return offer an action done to help their reconstruction. The stated purpose here is to build up goodwill, knowledge and dependency to encourage harmonious existence and prevent war that would only hurt our peoples.
-[] Civilian Trade with Shipwright's is good, and should proceed.
-[] Embassy with both good.
-[] The Temple Authority can have Murrs, they've offered the better price, also suggest them backing our insistence on holding Yivv and the neutrality/protectorate stuff with Zentraneum, or at least try to use the agreement to surrender Murrs to them to spur cooperation.

 

[aceraptor]

Whats with the need to try to get a world in Weznicrit? The Mashan outright offered to give it up in their own proposal- we aren't going to be gaining much by trying to saddle the Mashan with a world there when what they really care about now is keeping Murrs.

 

[RandomDwarf]

…meh, I hate politics, and frankly the shit that was speeed out would have me leaving the table and only sending a message to the temple authority about the whole "it's a shit galaxy out there, we just wanted to be sure about things because everyone we have met so far has been assholes." And leave the context why we thought that way to then.

The ship builders whatever can bugger off when they get the whole context crap about the actual relationship between us and the lamenters.

I would make both a terrible and great diplomat…I tell you as it is and won't Faafo(fuck around and find out). But you won't like what you hear from me first and foremost, but at least you'll know I'm saying the dang truth.

 

[Neablis]

Whats with the need to try to get a world in Weznicrit? The Mashan outright offered to give it up in their own proposal- we aren't going to be gaining much by trying to saddle the Mashan with a world there when what they really care about now is keeping Murrs.

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Because there's no way to make friends like actually being neighbors. Having a shared system means that our people will talk to each other and blend in a way that would be impossible otherwise. This has a lot of benefits. First, it means that if there's tension later, then there's an example of us working together peacefully to demonstrate that it's possible. Second, it gives us an understanding of their cultures that would be impossible otherwise. Third, it provides a more casual avenue for diplomacy than "We need to get the ambassadors talking across a giant table." Fourth, it provides an effective way to split things like missionaries into their space.

 

[The Laurent]

[] Plan: Yes, but Actually No, with Slightly More Generosity, And No World-Splitting
-[] First, apologize to the Mashan delegation for the unintended insult. And give some context about why the Federation offered what it did (the general poor state of the galaxy in terms of shit being fucked). Then politely ask for trade contacts, especially with the context of our ISCs.
-[] Second, give context for the Federation's entry into the war into 621- the Neon Protectorate and its fall and the sheer slog that it had been to push through to 621, as well as outlining the fleet & ground force commitments that were made. In that context, we were a major player in the war.
-[] Third, explain the origin of the Federation and its relationship with the Lamenters space marine chapter, as well as our continued support of them over the centuries.
-[] All of that said, Straight up refuse all demands for Yivv. Have the Temple Authority back you, or try to win their support in this. Similarly, Zentraneum is not theirs, even if it's not yours either in the sense of exploitation.
-[] The Alliance can have Kalikrax, and Weznicritt.
-[] Propose that each of the Temple Authority & Federation gain a world in Weznicritt, but in return offer an action done to help their reconstruction. The stated purpose here is to build up goodwill, knowledge and dependency to encourage harmonious existence and prevent war that would only hurt our peoples.
-[] Civilian Trade with Shipwright's is good, and should proceed.
-[] Embassy with both good.
-[] The Temple Authority can have Murrs, they've offered the better price, also suggest them backing our insistence on holding Yivv and the neutrality/protectorate stuff with Zentraneum, or at least try to use the agreement to surrender Murrs to them to spur cooperation.

For those opposed to that part... there might wind up being three votes with variations this time.

 

[aceraptor]

Because there's no way to make friends like actually being neighbors. Having a shared system means that our people will talk to each other and blend in a way that would be impossible otherwise. This has a lot of benefits. First, it means that if there's tension later, then there's an example of us working together peacefully to demonstrate that it's possible. Second, it gives us an understanding of their cultures that would be impossible otherwise. Third, it provides a more casual avenue for diplomacy than "We need to get the ambassadors talking across a giant table." Fourth, it provides an effective way to split things like missionaries into their space.

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We aren't going to be living on the same worlds. There will not be contact between our populations save for perhaps between the Shipwrights an the Federation. The Mashan dismissed the idea of civilian travel/trade with them outright.

I don't see how we'll have much contact between the factions even if we jointly own a system.

 

[Amilia]

Yeah, at the level the Federation and the others operate at, sharing a system is more likely to create tensions than positive feelings.

After all, you have to consider things like SDFs, asteroid mining rights and other space infrastructure.

To me sharing a system sounds like more trouble than its worth and more likely to cause a mess.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

Second, give context for the Federation's entry into the war into 621- the Neon Protectorate and its fall and the sheer slog that it had been to push through to 621, as well as outlining the fleet & ground force commitments that were made. In that context, we were a major player in the war.

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Also bring up how we disrupted that mass ritual and prevented the Cults from summoning a lot more ships than they did.

 

[WillRobinson]

@HeroCooky rather than the federation's diplomats doing it, could the Lamenter representative be the one that elaborates on the relationship between our polities?