Man. The idea that TLJ treated Finn like shit ain't an emergent narrative. People have been saying that the one black hero (who is a former slave!) being the groups comical buffoon was problamatic for years.
Star Wars General Discussion Thread
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Man. The idea that TLJ treated Finn like shit ain't an emergent narrative. People have been saying that the one black hero (who is a former slave!) being the groups comical buffoon was problamatic for years.
Not just that but it seems like a pure waste from use of a good actor to the fact that an in universe storm trooper Revolt would have been kInd of awesome, as well as been the inverse of the whole clone trooper control implant order 66 thing.
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The thing is that to me, Johnson does a lot more for Finn than Abrams. Abrams is the one after all who came up with this character and then didn't engage with amy of his baggage.
TFA has Finn get beaten up by a former comrade and then demolished by Kylo, and only ever out to help Rey when he's not just running away. TLJ is the one where he comes round quickly to the Resistance's point of view and wrecks Phasma.
I put this down in large part to the insidious side of the Mystery Box thing: Abrams gets the benefit of the doubt because he's just gesturing at stuff and no one can really be sure where his stories are going. So we just project all this stuff onto Finn, when his half-arc in the first movie doesn't support it at all - though as Trevorrow's draft script demonstrates, after TLJ that's where he was headed.
For that matter, I'm certain TFA has substantially more laughs at Finn's expense.
TFA has Finn get beaten up by a former comrade and then demolished by Kylo, and only ever out to help Rey when he's not just running away. TLJ is the one where he comes round quickly to the Resistance's point of view and wrecks Phasma.
I put this down in large part to the insidious side of the Mystery Box thing: Abrams gets the benefit of the doubt because he's just gesturing at stuff and no one can really be sure where his stories are going. So we just project all this stuff onto Finn, when his half-arc in the first movie doesn't support it at all - though as Trevorrow's draft script demonstrates, after TLJ that's where he was headed.
For that matter, I'm certain TFA has substantially more laughs at Finn's expense.
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I mean the specific charge that it was racially motivated. As opposed to "I've been handed a former slave-soldier with no apparent trauma and who gunned down his former brothers without any hesitation, doesn't care about the Resistance and ended the film unconscious so didn't share in the victory. Where do we go with him?"Man. The idea that TLJ treated Finn like shit ain't an emergent narrative. People have been saying that the one black hero (who is a former slave!) being the groups comical buffoon was problamatic for years.
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Figuring out if the creative motivation was racially motivated is difficult to ascertain exactly , since the creative forces at Lucasfilm would never come out and say it. But I maintain it certainly looks suspect as hell that out of all the human heroes, its the black slave character thats the butt of the bufoon/physical comedy jokes.
And frankly, I suspect the self-described progressive types ignored this because it went against the culture war narrative that the ST was super woke and had to be defended at all costs.
The very first scene for Finn in TLJ is having him stumbling around in a fat suit leaking fluid everywhere. I wouldn't be all that certain of that.
And let's be honest. "Shat on Poe the *least*" is a comically low bar to pass. There's ample reason Boyega has been casting shade over the entire trilogy in terms of how it treated Finn.
RadiantPhoenix
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Something that just popped up in my head: if the Clone War is being fought basically entirely by clones and Jedi on the Republic side, what does Mandalore's neutrality even mean?
Normally neutrality would mean not fighting in a war, but by that definition wouldn't most Republic loyalist worlds quality as neutral?
Normally neutrality would mean not fighting in a war, but by that definition wouldn't most Republic loyalist worlds quality as neutral?
Renewal
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I haven't watched TCW in ages, so I don't remember the details, but even superficially neutrality could also imply offering no support whatsoever. Even if Republic worlds provided no troops, they would still garrison and supply clone armies. Mandalore would presumably do no such thing for either side.
ShyPerson
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Personally I am of the headcanon that republic forces would also include non-clone auxiliary volunteers, not that much material even considers the possibility.
In any case I am now halfway through the Revenge of the Sith novelization. And it is so much better than the movie like it was hyped up to be around here. For instance, people often praise the opera scene as one of the good parts in the movie. I don't think it is, but the book actually builds on earlier events when Anakin and Palprine talk, and Palpatine takes his time to lead Anakin on before he dangles the tale of Darth Plaugious in front of Anakin.
It's additions like that which makes the book a far more compelling version of the story we got in the movie.
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But nonetheless that's the one where he obliterates his old boss rather than being kicked around, and we don't have the steady pile of mishaps from after the TIE crash. It does so much more to make Finn a part of the struggle than the first film.
I read Finn as more of the straight man to a bonkers setting than a mere buffoon, at least in Johnson's take. Hell, Han got clunked on the head by a falling box once upon a time. Luke fluffs a test involving a headstand and drops his mad gremlin teacher. Rey nearly flattens some fish-nuns with a rock.
My point is more that Johnson gives Finn highs that really matter, as opposed to just making him do blandly awesome stuff like Episode IX settled on.
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In TLJ Finn gets comedically tazed by Rose while trying to leave the Raddus, then latter gets arrested for illegal parking on Canto Bight. TLJ is plenty happy to subject Finn to a steady pile of punch and Judy mishaps. Just like TFA more or less.
I also think Finn getting kicked around in serious fights in TFA might have it's own problems, but it's a bit distinct from him being signaled out to be the butt of physical comedy gags. Ostensibly the badguys SHOULD be serious threats,and knock the heroes around a bit to emphasize the danger. So by itself Finn gettinv beat up in a fight isn't quite the same thing.
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My point is that it doesn't inform any arc of his in the first film. It just kind of goes nowhere and he never amounts to more than a decoy protagonist in the end.
And honestly, I look at the taze incident with Rose more as about her grief and Finn's misstep than just a joke. What can I say, I'm not that fussed about it, because the bigger thing for me is that he's now grounded in a meaningful psychology and actually evolves as a character. The Canto Bight sequence goes large on the bounciness and the laughs, no doubt, but I'm fine with that. Once we're on the Subjugator, the film plays things straight.
And honestly, I look at the taze incident with Rose more as about her grief and Finn's misstep than just a joke. What can I say, I'm not that fussed about it, because the bigger thing for me is that he's now grounded in a meaningful psychology and actually evolves as a character. The Canto Bight sequence goes large on the bounciness and the laughs, no doubt, but I'm fine with that. Once we're on the Subjugator, the film plays things straight.
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BBadolato
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I mean Star Wars was always going to be anti-authoritarian at least by intent, it does have an ideology of representative democracy to go promote. Although you did have some issues were some of people who want their cool Empire without the racism, but still keep the aesthetic, possible Empire apologia with the who Palps was preparing for the Vong idea, and the fucking Fel Empire.
I mean the whole thing with their being accusations of racism, is that basically Abrams pretty much caved to some toxic assholes in an attempt to try and 'fix' some things from TLJ in ways that neither side was really happy with. Finn not ending up with Rey is probably due to shipping wars, and those can be toxic although I could see either pair working out. Even outside of romance concerns, Finn wasn't give much after TLJ, and Rose was pretty much shafted.
Mind you a lot of characters and concepts got fucked over as well in that movie.
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Tbh I feel Rose was mainly down to backlash and maybe not fitting JJ's style. "What can I even do with her? She's not vaguely mysterious!"
My read on Finn and Rey is admittedly platonic, and I feel like the shipping wars run into the kind of "who deserves her more" mire that makes me wish they'd either left Finn and Rose together or paired him with Poe. Quite apart from the fact that I loved Rose anyway.
I still find it grimly hilarious that they did such a dreadful inversion of the Stormtrooper uprising we all wanted. Jannah and co actually make Finn look like a coward in comparison, when you stop to think about it. When they should really start as scared as he did and need Finn to inspire them to step up.
My read on Finn and Rey is admittedly platonic, and I feel like the shipping wars run into the kind of "who deserves her more" mire that makes me wish they'd either left Finn and Rose together or paired him with Poe. Quite apart from the fact that I loved Rose anyway.
I still find it grimly hilarious that they did such a dreadful inversion of the Stormtrooper uprising we all wanted. Jannah and co actually make Finn look like a coward in comparison, when you stop to think about it. When they should really start as scared as he did and need Finn to inspire them to step up.
Oh don't get me wrong. I think TFA handled Finn terribly to. I thought that long before TLJ made it trendy to nitpick TFA even. It's just that TLJ didnt impress me as being spectaculary better.
To not get too nitpicky about it. For me the issue with the tazing and the arrest scenes on canto bight is they all come after Finn's cringy bacta suit introduction. The exornirating circumstances of those instances don't really work when Finn's base intro scene independent of such factors is intentionally bafoonish as well.
Now the slapstick routine aimed at Finn does wind down near the climax(course it did in TFA as well). But it still stands out to me that Finn is the only human hero character who *needs* to have the slapstick act aimed at them wound down for the finale. And it just feels all around weird that the slave soldier played by a black actor got signaled out to be the more bafoonish of the main heroes.
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I wouldn't say it's buffoonish, more that he's the straight man to the circumstances around him. And the main thing for me is that Johnson actually had some ideas for Finn to have a story of his own, which goes a long way in my book.
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Arthur Frayn
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Finn's character arc in TFA is spotty but it's there - Finn goes from someone who's just looking to run away from the First Order, but who learns to connect and find friends.
In TLJ it's way clearer - Finn goes from someone who's only looking out for himself and his friend (literally his first instinct is to run away), but grows into someone who sees themself as a part of a larger cause, ultimately willing to sacrifice his life for it. His worldview expands from "I need to protect myself and my friend" to "I'm fighting for the downtrodden everywhere".
As for it somehow rolling back the clock, like...that's just how sequels work? In ANH Han ends the film a decorated hero of the Alliance whose seemingly embraced his role as a freedom fighter, then Empire rolls around and he spends maybe the first third of the film actively trying to flee the Alliance. Sequels necessarily involve resetting the clock on characters in order to mine new conflict - character's going on a permanent upward trajectory is boring as hell.
I think it's fine to discuss whether or not you liked Finn's arc in TFA and/or TLJ, but arguing that it's nonexistent or just a retread is off the mark.
In TLJ it's way clearer - Finn goes from someone who's only looking out for himself and his friend (literally his first instinct is to run away), but grows into someone who sees themself as a part of a larger cause, ultimately willing to sacrifice his life for it. His worldview expands from "I need to protect myself and my friend" to "I'm fighting for the downtrodden everywhere".
As for it somehow rolling back the clock, like...that's just how sequels work? In ANH Han ends the film a decorated hero of the Alliance whose seemingly embraced his role as a freedom fighter, then Empire rolls around and he spends maybe the first third of the film actively trying to flee the Alliance. Sequels necessarily involve resetting the clock on characters in order to mine new conflict - character's going on a permanent upward trajectory is boring as hell.
I think it's fine to discuss whether or not you liked Finn's arc in TFA and/or TLJ, but arguing that it's nonexistent or just a retread is off the mark.
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I would add that Han and Finn have both got newish reasons to want to pack up. In Finn's case, it's the Supremacy and twenty other Destroyers looming over them, which would doom Rey if she came back to them as he expects her to. In Han's, it's a run-in with a bounty hunter reminding him that he's still got a debt to Jabba that could easily cause him a lot of trouble.
I mean, first off I don't agree that most of Finn's antics come off as a straightman act instead of bafoonery.
Beyond that, the idea that the indoctrinated Space Hitlerjugend child soldier was always intended to be the straightman of the group comes off as conceptually wacky to me. Cause there's almost nothing about that background (with it's implied childhood of alien regimentation) that really flows into being a straightman character offering layman reactions. If anything theyre so at odds it suggests that the story group at Lucasfilm either didn't understand the implications of Finn's background, or even actively disliked it*.
*Which has interesting possible implications for why one of the more popular concepts in the Duel of Fates script, the Stormtrooper rebellion, was cut completely from Rise of Skywalker. I half wonder if it was actually one of the things that the executive/creative heads at Lucasfilm explicitely disliked about Trevows script.
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Well, that does circle back to my issues with what Abrams and I guess Kasdan laid down at the start. TLJ flipping Finn straight to serious character would cause its own whiplash though, so I feel like that hangs over it in a few ways.
With the Stormtrooper rebellion thing, I just don't know. I feel like it would've required some slow and quiet moments, which is entirely at odds with Abrams' standard procedure. I would actually say that TRoS generally is too busy and fast for a final instalment - even compared to The Dark Knight Rises which brings in a new villain, supporting heroes and conflict, there's much less of a sense of events coming to a head.
It's hard to say what input the Story Group had - there was one leaked Twitter message from a member which said that he wasn't at all involved in IX and that may have applied to a number of them (David Chen's video on The Skywalker Legacy gets into that). A lot of it's conjecture, but if I had to point the finger somewhere I'd lean towards executive interference. TRoS just feels more like the result of the bean counters meddling than the Story Group inveighing against Johnson - especially as they seem to have been very much on board with his take.
With the Stormtrooper rebellion thing, I just don't know. I feel like it would've required some slow and quiet moments, which is entirely at odds with Abrams' standard procedure. I would actually say that TRoS generally is too busy and fast for a final instalment - even compared to The Dark Knight Rises which brings in a new villain, supporting heroes and conflict, there's much less of a sense of events coming to a head.
It's hard to say what input the Story Group had - there was one leaked Twitter message from a member which said that he wasn't at all involved in IX and that may have applied to a number of them (David Chen's video on The Skywalker Legacy gets into that). A lot of it's conjecture, but if I had to point the finger somewhere I'd lean towards executive interference. TRoS just feels more like the result of the bean counters meddling than the Story Group inveighing against Johnson - especially as they seem to have been very much on board with his take.
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Zimmerwald1915
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It would have required a lot more than that. It would have required real commitment of screen time to show Finn's (and surely he would have companions) re-infiltration of Stormtrooper ranks, the development of a network of confidants blossoming into an organization, and serious attempts to mobilize and contest power. It would have involved real, hands-on contact with the people our protagonists would seek to mobilize. This is entirely contrary even to Trevorrow's and Johnson's visions of how movements take their cues from remote, inspiring figures and act more or less spontaneously.
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Depends how you go about it. Your specific take, for example, could work if we open with that operation already underway and have multiple story threads in service of it. However, that runs a risk of making things very slow indeed and leaves little room for the kind of thrills we expect from Star Wars, until the very end. We might buy it in War for the Planet of the Apes (actually there are some parallels there, as Trevorrow put Finn in a prison camp though I can't remember if that was voluntary or not), but that's operating on a far smaller scale and doesn't have the same expectations of big action-adventure setpieces tied to it.
Alternatively, you could take the seed of the idea that became Jannah and co, and use that to have a band of Stormtroopers who've deserted but haven't picked a side. They'd be going off the impulse Finn had at first - to escape and just sit out the conflict. You could also use that to set up a dynamic, specific conflict with the First Order, as they and the Resistance vie to track down the deserters and win them over or obliterate them. Maybe more shallow, but in narrative terms it's more efficient and easier to tie into a blockbuster film's story. I mean, I used it as a major story thread for my own Episode IX fic.
Arthur Frayn
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There's plenty of ways to shorthand some kind of Stormtrooper rebellion - we don't need to see Finn and company doing years of on the ground infiltration and radicalization. This is a movie, after all.
You'd just need to lay some groundwork in the first act (Finn talks about how a lot of his fellow troopers were just child soldier schmucks trying to survive or something), develop it a little in the second, then put Finn in a situation where he can make a Captain America-style speech. Bam, cue crowd shot of Stromtroopers taking off their helmets to reveal a whole new bunch of characters to make toys out of.
You'd just need to lay some groundwork in the first act (Finn talks about how a lot of his fellow troopers were just child soldier schmucks trying to survive or something), develop it a little in the second, then put Finn in a situation where he can make a Captain America-style speech. Bam, cue crowd shot of Stromtroopers taking off their helmets to reveal a whole new bunch of characters to make toys out of.
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I sort of wish I'd gone for the helmets-coming-off-en-masse thing, but I don't think it'd jive with what I did. I got really hung up on how Jannah and co were used and fixated on what I saw as a better way to play them.
Zimmerwald1915
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More to the point, it's a Hollywood movie. Showing the necessarily development might be realistic, but it won't sell. So sell what will sell and damn the misimpressions.
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The LEGO Star Wars Holiday Special to Premiere on Disney+ | StarWars.com
Learn the true meaning of Life Day with a festive celebration of the entire Skywalker saga in the charming LEGO style debuting November 17.
www.starwars.com
'Star Wars' exclusive: New Disney+ Lego holiday special pays homage to its kitschy 1978 predecessor
Exclusive: Premiering Nov. 17 on Disney+, “The Lego Star Wars Holiday Special” brings Rey, Finn and Poe Dameron back together to celebrate Life Day.
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I think something inside me just died and decomposed in an instant.
WTF is Disney thinking? The Star Wars Holiday Special with....🤢
In retrospect, the Disney productions made the original Holiday Special and Ewok movies look good in hindsight.