Star Wars General Discussion Thread

I also feel that Holdo came across as way stubborn, I mean were we supposed to like her, she felt like two character archetype's smashed together.

I'm fairly certain we're not supposed to like her. Or rather, we're not supposed to like her at first.

If I had to guess (and I'm hardly alone in this, others have said the same thing), Admiral Holdo's character is intentionally designed to provoke a certain reaction from the audience, and then to subvert expectations and (ideally) cause a reevaluation as more information is revealed. As initially presented, Admiral Holdo is basically the "Tyrannical, possibly evil new boss who gets in the way of Our Hero(es)" character; she takes actions that our familiar hero Poe thinks are wrong, and refuses to trust him or explain her actions to him. Simultaneously, and further reinforcing the previous, she's also a woman who is heavily coded as both nontraditional (the purple hair, wearing a dress while being an admiral), and feminine (the aforementioned dress). Hopefully I do not have to explain the unfair, nearly impossibly contradictory challenges and negative impressions that women authority figures very often have to deal with, nor the negative reactions that women who don't look or act traditional enough often receive. So the initial reaction of most of the audience is going to be to not like her at alll, to expect Poe to be proven correct and for her to get a comeuppance, possibly including her being revealed as a traitor all along.

This of course does not happen. We learn that Holdo's actions are justified and sensible, or at least are presented as such to us by the narrative through Leia, a character the audience is expected to know and trust thanks to her longtime history with the Star Wars stories, and that Poe is the one in the wrong, and has jeopardized the entire Resistance by his actions. Ultimately, Holdo proves herself a hero by sacrificing herself to provide a chance that the remains of the Resistance can escape. The audience is then expected to reevaluate not only their appraisal of the character, but to take a look at why their biases gave them the initial impression it did. Unfortunately, this also largely did not happen. :V

Why didn't it? Well, that's long and complicated and you could probably write an entire essay about it. The most common reason many will give is that the filmmakers messed up somehow. Frankly, I don't particularly agree with most of those types of arguments. The most I might say is that there might be dissonance in tone with how the film treats "grand spectacular strikes" and "heroic sacrifice", where it lauds them in Holdo's example, but is critical of them in Poe's and Finn's. But most of the examples people give are in-universe analyses of why Poe was right to send the bombers, or that Holdo's plan is bad and won't work. Which I have to roll my eyes at, because Star Wars has never been particularly good at rigorous, logical, or competent military planning.

So we're left with the fact that many in the audience refused to accept it because it subverted their expectations, that it told them their initial intutions were wrong. In other words, it's not because the message was poorly expessed, but because they didn't like the message itself and rejected it. They're not interested in reevaluating their biases about protagonist centered morality or women in authority, thank you very much, and they're going to react with hostility to any one (or any story) that tells them to.

And to be fair to them (fairer than many of them deserve), it's somewhat understandable why many would react this way. Star Wars movies have historically very rarely challenged the worldviews of mainstream Western (or at least American) audiences. In fact, the only time I can think of that they kind of have in the past is vague, unclear, and also provoked strong negative reactions; specifically it's the prequels' (inadvertent?) message of "Romantic relationships, marriage, and being connected and concerned for your family members and spouse = bad; Vaguely compassionate but detached cloistered religious living from infancy = good". o_O But beyond that there's little if anything else that really strikes me as challenging to the worldviews of mainstream audiences in Star Wars movies, so when confronted with something that does (and this is only one of the ways The Last Jedi does this), it's going to be unexpected, and thus unwelcome. Then combine that with the fact a large percentage of the American audience, particularly white Americans, and even more particularly white American men, have been conditioned by all but ubiquitous conservative propaganda to reject anything that makes them uncomfortable and to take it as an attack on everything they hold dear by an enemy that must be destroyed, and, well, you're left with a no win scenario. Your choices basically amount to either don't try to do it because a lot of people are unreachable and will reject it, or bite the bullet and do it anyway. Frankly, I'm very happy that Rian Johnson chose to bite the bullet, whether he realized it at the time or not.
 
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You're bang on the money. Johnson's talked about it being an emotional pivot - and in his work it fits a pattern, like Looper's Rainmaker reveals.
 
Thank you. :) I wish I could fully take credit, but it's mostly just a distillation of what others have said already at other places, including this very site.
I'm pulling heavily from what Johnson himself has said. Film Crit Hulk also has a very good breakdown on Observer of why TLJ caused so many people to feel attacked - a lot of factors kind of intersect, from the messages it's pushing to the wilful silliness (which I enjoy) at other points.
 
I take the point, but why does Poe have to be a leader? He's a mid-level officer, one of dozens if not hundreds at that point in the story (and the Resistance's decimation is to a great degree his fault). Whose project is it to promote him? Why?
I think the better question is why Poe even has to be a main character?

Cause I can't help but feel like if you reduced his screen time to Wedge, there'd be very little change for the rest of the st.
I'm fairly certain we're not supposed to like her. Or rather, we're not supposed to like her at first.

If I had to guess (and I'm hardly alone in this, others have said the same thing), Admiral Holdo's character is intentionally designed to provoke a certain reaction from the audience, and then to subvert expectations and (ideally) cause a reevaluation as more information is revealed. As initially presented, Admiral Holdo is basically the "Tyrannical, possibly evil new boss who gets in the way of Our Hero(es)" character; she takes actions that our familiar hero Poe thinks are wrong, and refuses to trust him or explain her actions to him. Simultaneously, and further reinforcing the previous, she's also a woman who is heavily coded as both nontraditional (the purple hair, wearing a dress while being an admiral), and feminine (the aforementioned dress). Hopefully I do not have to explain the unfair, nearly impossibly contradictory challenges and negative impressions that women authority figures very often have to deal with, nor the negative reactions that women who don't look or act traditional enough often receive. So the initial reaction of most of the audience is going to be to not like her at alll, to expect Poe to be proven correct and for her to get a comeuppance, possibly including her being revealed as a traitor all along.

This of course does not happen. We learn that Holdo's actions are justified and sensible, or at least are presented as such to us by the narrative through Leia, a character the audience is expected to know and trust thanks to her longtime history with the Star Wars stories, and that Poe is the one in the wrong, and has jeopardized the entire Resistance by his actions. Ultimately, Holdo proves herself a hero by sacrificing herself to provide a chance that the remains of the Resistance can escape. The audience is then expected to reevaluate not only their appraisal of the character, but to take a look at why their biases gave them the initial impression it did. Unfortunately, this also largely did not happen. :V

Why didn't it? Well, that's long and complicated and you could probably write an entire essay about it. The most common reason many will give is that the filmmakers messed up somehow. Frankly, I don't particularly agree with most of those types of arguments. The most I might say is that there might be dissonance in tone with how the film treats "grand spectacular strikes" and "heroic sacrifice", where it lauds them in Holdo's example, but is critical of them in Poe's and Finn's. But most of the examples people give are in-universe analyses of why Poe was right to send the bombers, or that Holdo's plan is bad and won't work. Which I have to roll my eyes at, because Star Wars has never been particularly good at rigorous, logical, or competent military planning
I disagree. I think the problem with expecting the audiance to reavaluate their impression of Holdo after finding out she had a plan all along, is the film doesnt directly address the next obvious question "why" Holdo kept the plan secret. Since it's obviously such a good plan, Poe had no reason to not go along with it. There was no clearly presented need for secrecy, and Holdo displaying nothing but affection for Poe after the mutiny muddles the water on whether it was out of personal animosity to Poe. The audiance is left to extrapolate their own explanations, and a lot of them weren't charitable.

It's also probably worth considering that at the point the audiance is intended to reevaluate Holdo's actions, *vastly* more important shit is going on in the Throne room confrontation. Bombshells of revelations and betrayals. With all of that going on, a lot of the audience wasn't going to be very focused on the very specific positive reinterpretation of Holdo's character that the fiom wanted.
 
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I think the better question is why Poe even has to be a main character?
Six of one. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Abrams agrees that he doesn't, considering that he barely does anything in either TFA or TROS (for all that he gets a dumb, cookie-cutter backstory in TROS).

I disagree. I think the problem with expecting the audiance to reavaluate their impression of Holdo after finding out she had a plan all along, is the film doesnt directly address the next obvious question "why" Holdo kept the plan secret.
I would have thought that was obvious? The First Order is tracking the Resistance fleet through hyperspace, and the theory that there's a mole broadcasting the fleet's location is at least as credible as Finn's and Rose's theory that the First Order is deploying new super-tech to do what has hitherto been impossible. Which theory, IIRC, they don't even share with command.

(Also, there is a beacon on the Raddus broadcasting its location - the one Rey gave to Finn. Until the First Order's super-tech was exposited about, I was sure that was going to be what they were tracking.)
 
Pretty sure Lucasfilm paid Oscar Isaac a lot of money for his appearance, actually :V
True, but I was thinking in artistic terms. Johnson was handed an embarrassment of riches - Abrams' casting is arguably his strongest asset from film to film. And the character's potential too - which matches up with the reasons Johnson gave for putting Kylo on the throne.
 
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I

So we're left with the fact that many in the audience refused to accept it because it subverted their expectations, that it told them their initial intutions were wrong. In other words, it's not because the message was poorly expessed, but because they didn't like the message itself and rejected it. They're not interested in reevaluating their biases about protagonist centered morality or women in authority, thank you very much, and they're going to react with hostility to any one (or any story) that tells them to.

And to be fair to them (fairer than many of them deserve), it's somewhat understandable why many would react this way. Star Wars movies have historically very rarely challenged the worldviews of mainstream Western (or at least American) audiences. In fact, the only time I can think of that they kind of have in the past is vague, unclear, and also provoked strong negative reactions; specifically it's the prequels' (inadvertent?) message of "Romantic relationships, marriage, and being connected and concerned for your family members and spouse = bad; Vaguely compassionate but detached cloistered religious living from infancy = good". o_O But beyond that there's little if anything else that really strikes me as challenging to the worldviews of mainstream audiences in Star Wars movies, so when confronted with something that does (and this is only one of the ways The Last Jedi does this), it's going to be unexpected, and thus unwelcome. Then combine that with the fact a large percentage of the American audience, particularly white Americans, and even more particularly white American men, have been conditioned by all but ubiquitous conservative propaganda to reject anything that makes them uncomfortable and to take it as an attack on everything they hold dear by an enemy that must be destroyed, and, well, you're left with a no win scenario. Your choices basically amount to either don't try to do it because a lot of people are unreachable and will reject it, or bite the bullet and do it anyway. Frankly, I'm very happy that Rian Johnson chose to bite the bullet, whether he realized it at the time or not.

I'd say your being immensely generous in trying to link subverted expectations to Star Wars somehow challenging conservative American viewers when some it boils down to unpopular twist and turns, idiotic nerds, and racism and sexism depending on what is being critiqued. Hell you could probably extend this back to prequels as well.

With TLJ, some criticism was just poorly argued, and some subversion brought more disappointments or added some frustrations. The biggest one I would say TLJ had the unenviable task of finally putting in canon what happens to Luke Skywalker. He basically ends up a near hermit who couldn't bring himself to try and confront the First Order, as someone who was used to for better or worse Legends Luke it was really jarring. Now as to why he did it, that I feel is unfairly criticized. Luke always had an issue with anger and fear, especially in ROTJ when he stoically acts like a Jedi Master, until Vader threatens he sister and he goes within a hairs breathe of actually the man he wanted to save. Even when Luke does help out, he dies, so we see the last Skywalker on a bittersweet note.

The reactions against Snoke and his death was more I guess due to begrudging acceptance and trying to find out more. I say begrudging because Snoke is basically your manipulative Palpatine archetype, that J.J largely gave that role to and felt committed to keeping in some sense with Palpatine himself in TROS. Also are the Skywalker-Solo's supposed to end with an evil villain as another criticism of Snoke's death.

Rey to a lesser extent having 'nobodies' for parents is again subverting the typical played out Star Wars story, not that I mind, but it could make the plot seem schizophrenic characterization wise. I'm not going to give 'Rey is a sue' the time of day. Leia using the Force might not have been the worst thing, but surviving in a vacuum and presumably being rusty with any force training seems to be pushing belief.
Most of the arguments against Canto Blight I feel are generally against the only two minorities in the cast for flimsy reasons. Finn was largely in it for Rey, was basically still a recently deprogrammed cult member in mindset, this plot was a good way to get him to see the larger galaxy. Rose I liked a lot, especially when she basically forced Finn to stay after gushing about him a few moments earlier, and I could them as pairing right off the bat, so I wasn't surprised about the whole stopping the heroic sacrifice.

Now to take this back to the Prequels. With the Phantom Menace you had people pissed off that Vader was a energetic child, well people don't care for the fact beneath the cool armor was a fundamentally broken man shell of a man. Other things include unfortunate implications and racial caricatures with Watto, the Trade Federation, Jar Jar Binks and possibly the other Gungans. Also the Trade Federation are on the nose as political villains because you have Nute Gunray and Lott Dod as references to Newt Gingrich, and Trent Lott both Republicans. The movie was also too 'kiddie' for some. I'm not sure what really plagued AOTC outsides of the Romance scenes, fighting Yoda, the Emergency Powers act and maybe Anakin as a child killer, the first time around.

With Revenge of the Sith. The biggest things were again a more blatant reference to contemporary U.S politics with Palpatine and his takeover of the Republic, and Anakin Skywalker child killer and domestic abuser. So again I really would say all the pissed off nerds is because of some great reaction against politics, but some of them are.
 
Most of the arguments against Canto Blight I feel are generally against the only two minorities in the cast for flimsy reasons.
Isaac is Latin American, but admittedly does white-pass a lot more easily than Boyega or Tran.

Gunray and Lott Dod as references to Newt Gingrich, and Trent Lott both Republicans
Three Republicans: Newt (Newt Gingrich), Gunray (Ronald Reagan), Lott (Trent Lott). One Democrat: Dod (Chris Dodd - or possibly his dad Thomas, but he was a Democrat too)
 
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Six of one. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Abrams agrees that he doesn't, considering that he barely does anything in either TFA or TROS (for all that he gets a dumb, cookie-cutter backstory in TROS).
I hardly think Poe in TLJ is much better. Would any of his friends even noticed his "dramatic character growth" in TLJ if you had cut his arc from the film?
I would have thought that was obvious? The First Order is tracking the Resistance fleet through hyperspace, and the theory that there's a mole broadcasting the fleet's location is at least as credible as Finn's and Rose's theory that the First Order is deploying new super-tech to do what has hitherto been impossible. Which theory, IIRC, they don't even share with command.

(Also, there is a beacon on the Raddus broadcasting its location - the one Rey gave to Finn. Until the First Order's super-tech was exposited about, I was sure that was going to be what they were tracking.)
There being a spy on board the Raddus is by default not as credible/obvious on the basis that the movie doesn't ever bother to raise this as a possibility, nor ever suggest that Finn/Rose were wrong about the hyper space tracking device. From what we actually have on screen, it's entirely hypothetical conjecture. It's just conjecture that's more charitable to Holdo than just assuming she's a nitwit. Which I think is the key problem here. TLJ spends a great deal of screen time framing Holdo from an uncharitable perspective with Poe. Which means that when it comes time to reevaluate Holdo's conduct latter in the film, anything left ambiguous is at risk of being interpreted uncharitably. If TLJ intended for the reinterpretation of Holdo's behavior to be obvious and clear cut, the film didn't do a very good job of it.

edit: And as I said before. The fact that Holdo's reevaluation coincides with the much more dramatic and attention grabbing events in the Throne room, means that a lot of viewers simply aren't going to think about Holdo too much, and simply go off their initial impressions. Which the movie *deliberately* frames as being uncharitable.
 
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Isaac is Latin American, but admittedly does white-pass a lot more easily than Boyega or Tran.

My bad.

Three Republicans: Newt (Newt Gingrich), Gunray (Ronald Reagan), Lott (Trent Lott). One Democrat: Dod (Chris Dodd - or possibly his dad Thomas, but he was a Democrat too)

I looked just to be safe, and the only two that seemed reasonable enough were Lott and Gingrich, I unsure about Dodd. Gunray really doesn't strike me as a Reagan to be honest.
 
In Poe's case, that's because he's making them unnecessarily. In Finn's case, it's because he wasn't actually making a heroic sacrifice
Finn's wasn't not heroic, but it would've been futile. As telegraphed by Poe calling off the attack run, and his speedier was ready to fall apart well before he hit the cannon.

The thing with TLJ is that, in contrast to the perception of it as a film which doesn't want to be part of a trilogy, it's really banking on a sequel which will solidify its choices. Rey and Kylo's conflict comes to a thermonuclear head, Poe takes up command while Finn becomes a key leader in the Resistance with Rose as the gang's moral centre, and Hux's feud against Ren unwittingly sabotages the First Order. Those beats, or something like them, would make the risks in TLJ pay off.
 
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I disagree. I think the problem with expecting the audiance to reavaluate their impression of Holdo after finding out she had a plan all along, is the film doesnt directly address the next obvious question "why" Holdo kept the plan secret. Since it's obviously such a good plan, Poe had no reason to not go along with it. There was no clearly presented need for secrecy, and Holdo displaying nothing but affection for Poe after the mutiny muddles the water on whether it was out of personal animosity to Poe. The audiance is left to extrapolate their own explanations, and a lot of them weren't charitable.

It's also probably worth considering that at the point the audiance is intended to reevaluate Holdo's actions, *vastly* more important shit is going on in the Throne room confrontation. Bombshells of revelations and betrayals. With all of that going on, a lot of the audience wasn't going to be very focused on the very specific positive reinterpretation of Holdo's character that the fiom wanted.

In regards to your first point I probably would have to also disagree in turn. I feel this is very close to what I mentioned about intentionally trying to poke holes in the narrative to try to give an objective reason for one's personal emotional reaction. I am deeply skeptical that just giving Leia a line saying some variant of "I expected you to do your duty and trust the Admiral as I trusted her, we were being mysteriously tracked in a way we didn't understand which could indicate a mole, you had just proven yourself reckless and foolhardy, and, most of all, the reasons of commanding officers are need to know, and you didn't need to know." would have made the majority of the people who dislike the plot so deeply suddenly go "oh, all right then." Instead, they would just be extrapolating why Leia is wrong, and Poe should have been told anyway. Basically, a lot of the time that people complain about something that "didn't make sense" in a narrative is because the narrative is about something or did something that they don't like, and they're rejecting it. By and large, people are totally fine spending huge amounts of effort making up justifications to defend things they like, and conversely, to criticize things they deeply dislike ( :whistle: ). I submit to you that for the vast majority of people who so disliked that entire subplot and its themes, there was no in-universe justification to be given that would make them come around. They identified with Poe and against Holdo, and so they're going to spend effort justifying why Poe is actualy right and Holdo (and thus the narrative's tone and themes) are wrong.

As for the second, I'll admit that divided attention could be an issue, though it wasn't for myself, and it's not a complaint I have heard very often. I also am not so sure I agree with the idea that what's going on in the throne room is "vastly" more important, though more action-oriented I will grant you.

In Poe's case, that's because he's making them unnecessarily. In Finn's case, it's because he wasn't actually making a heroic sacrifice

Finn's wasn't not heroic, but it would've been futile.

True, but I suppose I feel that there's a certain amount of "having your cake and eating it" with the scene, emotionally speaking. You know the saying "There is no such thing as an anti-war film" attributed to French director François Truffaut? The idea that violence is exciting, and by merely portraying it in a way that's at all enjoyable to watch you make it attractive and glamorous. I kind of feel like if your film is trying to say that "grand strikes" are often self destructive and driven by macho hotbloodedness rather than sound thinking, and that "heroic sacrifices" are tragic at best and never to be sought out, that having a major climactic moment of your movie be both of those things and very much designed to be a massive fist-pumping, feel-good, "FUCK YOU!" to the hated villains who have been relentless dogging our heroes and destroying their ships, their lives, and their hope bit by bit throughout the film is.... a touch contradictory.

Of course, if I'm being honest, I must admit to a certain bias against the scene due to my own fannish aesthetic preferences. But I don't think it's entirely due to that.

I'd say your being immensely generous in trying to link subverted expectations to Star Wars somehow challenging conservative American viewers when some it boils down to unpopular twist and turns, idiotic nerds, and racism and sexism depending on what is being critiqued. Hell you could probably extend this back to prequels as well.

Well, I do not know for sure if this is what Johnson intentionally was going for, of course. Though if it wasn't, it's rather serendipidous how well it fits. Also, I certainly don't mean to insinuate that disliking The Last Jedi means you're a conservative. That said, I definitely think that the The Last Jedi being almost certainly the Star Wars movie that is the most thematic progressive, racially inclusive, critical of tradition and critical of standard war-movie tropes, while also inspiring such a deep and passionate loathing from so many is not a coincidence (I'd also say that first part of the statement is a touch damning with faint praise, but nevertheless). In regards to the rest of your post, I'll admit I'm confused about what you're trying to say. I do stand by my statement that Star Wars films before The Last Jedi didn't really present anything terribly contradictory with mainstream American views (beyond the likely accidental one I mentioned). That's not to say that previous Star Wars films didn't challenge things many fans previously assumed about Star Wars setting details, for example midichlorians, but that's a somewhat different matter (though not entirely unrelated).
 
I mean, I consider myself to be very much on the classically liberal side of the UK centre-right and don't find anything to peeve me in the film.

I can see a sequel having to work overtime to ensure that the lessons about when to fight, when to make that last stand etc stick, but it's frustrating that Abrams threw it all out the window and the first thing Poe does in Episode IX is a ludicrously risky manoeuvre.
 
In regards to your first point I probably would have to also disagree in turn. I feel this is very close to what I mentioned about intentionally trying to poke holes in the narrative to try to give an objective reason for one's personal emotional reaction. I am deeply skeptical that just giving Leia a line saying some variant of "I expected you to do your duty and trust the Admiral as I trusted her, we were being mysteriously tracked in a way we didn't understand which could indicate a mole, you had just proven yourself reckless and foolhardy, and, most of all, the reasons of commanding officers are need to know, and you didn't need to know." would have made the majority of the people who dislike the plot so deeply suddenly go "oh, all right then." Instead, they would just be extrapolating why Leia is wrong, and Poe should have been told anyway. Basically, a lot of the time that people complain about something that "didn't make sense" in a narrative is because the narrative is about something or did something that they don't like, and they're rejecting it. By and large, people are totally fine spending huge amounts of effort making up justifications to defend things they like, and conversely, to criticize things they deeply dislike ( :whistle: ). I submit to you that for the vast majority of people who so disliked that entire subplot and its themes, there was no in-universe justification to be given that would make them come around. They identified with Poe and against Holdo, and so they're going to spend effort justifying why Poe is actualy right and Holdo (and thus the narrative's tone and themes) are wrong.
Yes, but that's not an accident, is it? The movie spends most of Holdo's screen time framing her negatively from Poe's perspective, and to make his concerns that she's aloof/incompetent seem reasonable. The challenge to change the audiances perspective of Holdo was self-imposed. And given how divisive she became, it's worth considering that maybe the movies attempt to recontexualize her character had mixed results.

And its not just adding a line or two. The problem is the whole setup on the Raddus is too confined and removed from anything interesting for there to be much interesting reason for conflict between Holdo and Poe. Her plan is so much better than Poe's he has no reason to disagree with it. And while he might not have a *right* to know about it, it doesnt aeem like Holdo had any reason to *not* snip obviouas insubordination/mutiny in the bud by explaining the plan. A line of dialog can't really fix that.

It's why I think a missed opportunity in TLJ was not just having the entire Resistance plot take place on Canto Bight. A planet full of treacherous armsdealers and FO spies is a much better setup for Poe and Holdo to come into conflict, and for the recontexualization for it to be clear Holdo had understandable reason to keep a gungho cowboy like Poe out of the loop when dealing with such people.
As for the second, I'll admit that divided attention could be an issue, though it wasn't for myself, and it's not a complaint I have heard very often. I also am not so sure I agree with the idea that what's going on in the throne room is "vastly" more important, though more action-oriented I will grant you.
I think that probably ties into the fact that most fans are more intersted in meta or fanon details than what makes good film craft on a technical level.

And it's not just that there's a big light saber fight. Kylo and Rey are the principle villain and herione respectively, and their confrontation dumps huge dramatic landmines on us about them. Snokes role in orchestrating Kylos fall. Kylo not being redeemed despite betraying Snoke to save Rey out of his feelings for her. And Rey discovering that her forlorn hope to find her family was all for naught. These revelations are far more important than revelations about a supporting character like Holdo.

And with all that going on, a lot of the audience were going to subconsciously focus on it, and just stick to their gut feeling about Holdo.
 
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I think the idea that you can just assume that the main protagonist of a Star Wars work is right and justified without questioning it should have gone out the window with Mace Windu in Revenge of the Sith.

True, but I suppose I feel that there's a certain amount of "having your cake and eating it" with the scene, emotionally speaking. You know the saying "There is no such thing as an anti-war film" attributed to French director François Truffaut? The idea that violence is exciting, and by merely portraying it in a way that's at all enjoyable to watch you make it attractive and glamorous. I kind of feel like if your film is trying to say that "grand strikes" are often self destructive and driven by macho hotbloodedness rather than sound thinking, and that "heroic sacrifices" are tragic at best and never to be sought out, that having a major climactic moment of your movie be both of those things and very much designed to be a massive fist-pumping, feel-good, "FUCK YOU!" to the hated villains who have been relentless dogging our heroes and destroying their ships, their lives, and their hope bit by bit throughout the film is.... a touch contradictory.


That reminds me of Star Wars's ongoing theme of, "stop, cool your tits, take time to think things through, and proceed carefully. Don't get overconfident."
  • The Phantom Menace: Qui-Gon runs ahead of Obi-Wan in the reactor complex, and gets isolated and killed by Darth Maul. Unnecessarily.
  • Attack of the Clones: Anakin and Padme run in to rescue Obi-Wan, and just wind up giving Dooku two more prisoners. Unnecessarily.
  • Attack of the Clones: (Large-scale example) The Jedi rescue team decides to make a show of force in the arena, and then a dramatic stand, rather than getting in, rescuing the prisoners, and getting the fuck out. The result is that most of them die, and the mission only avoids being a total failure because Yoda shows up with Palpatine's Jedi-trap.
  • Revenge of the Sith: Mace Windu and the Council charge in to take on Palpatine immediately, rather than preparing. On the one hand, yes, Palpatine needed to die ASAP, but on the other hand (though I'm not sure if Anakin told them this), Palpatine deliberately leaked that to Anakin, meaning he has had as long as he wants to prepare, and they're going in with what they've got. If there's an opening, it's because Palpatine wanted to leave one. Palpatine basically does need killing, preferably sooner rather than later, but charging in immediately might not be the wisest way of achieving that. Imagine if they had, you know, talked to the Jedi in the field first, and told them that, and then reminded them that the clones were advertised as obeying any order without question, so maybe they should see what they can do to keep Palpatine from sending any orders to them or something.
  • Revenge of the Sith: Anakin going to Palpatine's office after Mace Windu makes things worse for everyone, especially Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala.
  • Revenge of the Sith: Yoda's fight with Palpatine accomplishes nothing besides making it absolutely clear to Palpatine that Yoda can't beat him in a fight. It's slightly different from Mace Windu's attack in that, on the one hand, Palpatine's already done most of the damage he can do in the short run, but on the other hand, the opening he's got now isn't necessarily entirely deliberate.
  • A New Hope: (averted) Obi-Wan manages to convince Luke not to go running in trying to avenge him. "That'd end [his] trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
  • The Empire Strikes Back: Luke runs to Bespin trying to save Han and Leia, and winds up being saved by Leia at the cost of possibly being able to rescue Han from Boba Fett.
The Battle of Geonosis is bolded because it's the one example that happens at a large scale, rather than an individual one.

Some good Yoda quotes:
  • "Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not a victory. The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, the Clone War has."
  • "To answer power with power, the Jedi way, this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are."
  • "Ohhh. Great warrior." [laughs and shakes his head] "Wars not make one great."

---

Another topic, in case anyone's interested:

One thing that I've heard/seen a lot in discussion about the Jedi in Star Wars is the idea that, because the Jedi don't always live up to their own standards, that means they're awful and/or need lower standards.

The easy counter-argument, of course, is that those standards are goals, not requirements, and that they shouldn't stop trying to be better people than they are just because they don't manage to be perfect. (Or because it makes audience feel inadequate)
 
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Well, I do not know for sure if this is what Johnson intentionally was going for, of course. Though if it wasn't, it's rather serendipidous how well it fits. Also, I certainly don't mean to insinuate that disliking The Last Jedi means you're a conservative. That said, I definitely think that the The Last Jedi being almost certainly the Star Wars movie that is the most thematic progressive, racially inclusive, critical of tradition and critical of standard war-movie tropes, while also inspiring such a deep and passionate loathing from so many is not a coincidence (I'd also say that first part of the statement is a touch damning with faint praise, but nevertheless). In regards to the rest of your post, I'll admit I'm confused about what you're trying to say. I do stand by my statement that Star Wars films before The Last Jedi didn't really present anything terribly contradictory with mainstream American views (beyond the likely accidental one I mentioned). That's not to say that previous Star Wars films didn't challenge things many fans previously assumed about Star Wars setting details, for example midichlorians, but that's a somewhat different matter (though not entirely unrelated).

See I don't Star Wars as some upholder of tradition, but there has been a fairly stupid argument that has cropped up over the years about politics entering ones beloved pop-culture, as if culture was some how separate from politics. I feel it struck Star Wars very late with TLJ, mind you Star Wars having some form of contemporary or near contemporary 'left-wing' politics could at least be traced back to Return of the Jedi. Hell even in the OT you have Princess Leia as strong willed and spirited in the damn opening of a New Hope. which is why I am referencing how the Prequels pretty much had a lot of ties to contemporary politics, hell even more so than the sequels. The point being there's nothing really appealing to some conservative or even just an American Mainstream, whatever that is with Star Wars for people to want bash TLJ. The TLJ backlash was based off something more recent that being post Gamer-gate culture wars, and Johnson subverting the traditional Star Wars story, that Abrams played far too close to the hilt with.
 
#whitegenocide was trending from our first glimpse of Finn, I'd remind everyone.

People treat the default as apolitical. This is why a female protagonist is automatic deemed political, but something like CoD isn't deemed to have any political dimension.

It's extra daft when you consider that Iron Man, Cap, Batman etc. dominate in superhero movies, and outside those we still have Neo, Raleigh Beckett and Owen Douchebro from Jurassic World. Rey and Rose are drops in the ocean but they're treated like a tsunami and have to be sidelined or mansplained to neutralise the "threat" they represent.

The alt-right, among whom it's totemic to hate new Star Wars, are after all just as identitarian as their counterparts on the left.
 
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#whitegenocide was trending from our first glimpse of Finn, I'd remind everyone.

People treat the default as apolitical. This is why a female protagonist is automatic deemed political, but something like CoD isn't deemed to have any political dimension.

It's extra daft when you consider that Iron Man, Cap, Batman etc. dominate in superhero movies, and outside those we still have Neo, Raleigh Beckett and Owen Douchebro from Jurassic World. Rey and Rose are drops in the ocean but they're treated like a tsunami and have to be sidelined or mansplained to neutralise the "threat" they represent.

The alt-right, among whom it's totemic to hate new Star Wars, are after all just as identitarian as their counterparts on the left.

eh, maybe, but at the same time I think that there is an equal and opposite direction from the left to unreservedly support it.

Which kind of leaves me, some one who is not really a fan of the film, reluctant to even discuss it because no matter who you are talking to it seems like they have an ax to grind ideologically and it poisons the well.
 
eh, maybe, but at the same time I think that there is an equal and opposite direction from the left to unreservedly support it.

Which kind of leaves me, some one who is not really a fan of the film, reluctant to even discuss it because no matter who you are talking to it seems like they have an ax to grind ideologically and it poisons the well.
This.

Honestly while Star Wars has always leaned leftward(as least as far left as neoliberal capitalism allows),I think most of the idenitarian politics bruhaugh about the ST was mostly people looking for an avenue to fight the culture wars. Either as an example of how the pinkos are ruining everything for the altright, or as a sacred hill to defend for some progressives. While the former very much tended to be more toxic, I think both ended up muddling the discourse about the ST into being an ideological conflict in a lot of ways.

Which always had potential to blow up in peoples faces, since the ST had every possibility of overall being good or bad independent of the ideilogical tides of history. For how much they mean to people, theyre still just movies.
 
I do find it interesting that TRoS went very hard on not having any political dimension as far as it could help it. The conflict devolves into the bluntest kind of Good vs Evil, whilst never making the case for the good guys. It's just "vote Resistance to stop planets being atomised".

The identity thing cuts both ways, there's an emergent narrative that Johnson's treatment of all the leads apart from Rey and Ren was racist, that the only reason Finn didn't end up with Rey was racism etc. Oh, and that Rose's portrayal is racist and sexist because I don't know why but I'm seeing it more and more.

All of which leaves me, sitting somewhere slightly right of centre (UK centre that is) feeling more and more adrift from everyone else in the conversation.
 
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