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Regarding Sunfang, I know this will be an unpopular opinion bordering on sacrilege for us loot goblins but I think we should just leave it alone. The weight of it's destiny lies upon another, we shouldn't interfere.

We've already got some of the best kit on the planet, let's not cross fate for what is, bizarrely enough, only a small step up from what we have.

If Blackout more or less throws the opportunity in our face again then sure, go for it. But short of that I'd say leave it be.

Who's talking about using it for ourselves? I would have given it to Dorial.

Though I'd be down for trading it to T&T for Teclis' instructions on spells, or his hand in marriage. Either would do really.


More seriously you do sort of have a point in that taking Sunfang for ourself, if we even had the opportunity, would be the sort of butterfly that could result in something like Alarielle being killed by the Druchii due to Tyrion not having the sword and Ulthuan consequently losing the war. But then that could also happen from something like Aislinn's Sea Guard being the ones to find the sword and then taking it for themselves rather then Tyrion getting it. It's not just our conduct that can result in butterflies.

Edit: Though the idea that we couldn't benefit from such a weapon in a practical sense is very silly. Even if we have artefact level equipment our swordmasters, particularly Dorial, don't.
 
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Who's talking about using it for ourselves? I would have given it to Dorial.

Though I'd be down for trading it to T&T for Teclis' instructions on spells, or his hand in marriage. Either would do really.


More seriously you do sort of have a point in that taking Sunfang for ourself, if we even had the opportunity, would be the sort of butterfly that could result in something like Alarielle being killed by the Druchii due to Tyrion not having the sword and Ulthuan consequently losing the war. But then that could also happen from something like Aislinn's Sea Guard being the ones to find the sword and then taking it for themselves rather then Tyrion getting it. It's not just our conduct that can result in butterflies.

Edit: Though the idea that we couldn't benefit from such a weapon in a practical sense is very silly. Even if we have artefact level equipment our swordmasters, particularly Dorial, don't.
They're also not trained to use Sunfang to its full potential. Sunfang is a single handed blade, designed to be used either in conjunction with a shield, or from the back of a mount. It also has magical powers which their doctrine doesn't account for (that is, the way they fight doesn't factor in taking half a second to use it to spit fire or anything). They could certainly use it, but I would suggest they're generally better off with their own weapons.
 
They could certainly use it, but I would suggest they're generally better off with their own weapons.
I'll be honest, it's one thing to say that our Swordmasters couldn't use Sunfang to its full potential, in fact Teclis even says that even Tyrion himself couldn't use the sword to its full potential when inspecting the sword, but the idea that our swordmasters would be outright better off with the standard gear of swordmasters of Hoeth, compared to when wielding one of the most powerful weapons forged by none other then Caledor Dragontamer himself at a time when magical crafting in general was more powerful due to the winds suffusing the world before the creation of the vortex strikes me as honestly pretty absurd.

As for it not suiting their fighting style due to being a strictly one handed weapon, behold:



Seriously, it would have been perfect for Dorial.
 
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How tall is Tyrion actually?
My glorious (future) phoenix king is at all times exactly 10cm taller than the second tallest person in the room. Asurian, during one of their weekly chats where the God asks the GOAT for advice, has offered to make him permanently the tallest elf ever, but he turned Him down, because, as everyone knows, Tyrion, "I can and will kill this professional duelist that trains and exists exclusively to kill people of my cursed lineage in my first duel at 16 years of age" heir of Anaerion is very humble.
 
Are elves fully responsible for their actions because they are by their nature arrogant? Are humans fully responsible for their actions because they are easily corrupted?

I think these are good questions.

My answer- and this is speculative- is that dwarves are just different from humans or elves. They seem to have a higher floor and a lower ceiling. With elves, you have a full moral spectrum ranging from the most benevolent priestess of Isha to the druchii who hunts human children for sport. Humans have the same spectrum, with selfless devotees of Shallya existing alongside brutal warlords, hired killers, and Stromfels worshippers. Both species have very high mountains, very low valleys, and everything in between.

Dwarves don't appear to have the same qualities. We don't hear much about dwarves who simply break their word for profit. However, we also don't hear about dwarves forgiving ancient blood feuds and reconciling with their hated enemies. Dwarves appear to be vastly more consistent than humans and elves, for better and for worse.

Elves are extremely arrogant, but that arrogance can take many forms, including genuine noblesse oblige. Even if they can't choose not to be arrogant, they can choose to be benevolent in their superiority. As for human corruption, it's quite clear that humans can be utter bastards on our own. There are human warlords who sack towns and merchants who pay pirates to murder their rivals and common bandits who butcher travellers, and none of them require Chaos to be awful.

The Empire has Magnus and Boris Goldgather, Karl Franz and Dieter. The elves have Bel-Shanaar and Malekith. Dwarven rulers seem to be operate with a much more limited spectrum. You don't have any High Kings who are willing to set aside centuries of hatred and prejudice, as Magnus did with the Colleges. However, you also don't have any High Kings who cheerfully take bribes and ignore their duty.

Chaos Dwarves are the obvious and enormous exception to this rule, but I don't know enough to comment about them. Obviously, this is just a theory, but I was interested in the idea. Humans and elves are very clearly capable of bending and changing, while it isn't so clear for dwarves. Can they alter their ways, or are the traditions of the Ancestors a path they cannot escape save through death?
 
Oh no please don't turn Fanriel into yet another warhammer quest character that can make magic items. There are more than enough of those. I just want my mercenaries and my spells and possibly elementally possessed gribblies.
A loremaster is not a mage smith or a wind specialist.

The skillset they cultivate will require some retooling to make magic gear and even then it would be better to get a specialist (vaul smith or otherwise)to do it.

Having said that, making magic items would help our coffers. And the knights of the Bull have the room for a workshop and it benefits both of us.

As a merc company, it's one of the best things we can hope for because it allows tailor made, efficient gear for future recruits.

As for finding a specialist... Or at least someone who knows what they're doing.
Our closest bet would be Laurelorn. Elves.
Other options are
Ice witches(geographic locked)
Hag witch... Maybe?
hedge wizards?

Other options require travel.
Or good relationship with the Asur... Sadly not possible in the immediate future.

I'm personally hoping for dawi friendship if I had a genie to wish on.
 
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A loremaster is not a mage smith or a wind specialist.

The skillset they cultivate will require some retooling to make magic gear and even then it would be better to get a specialist (vaul smith or otherwise)to do it.

Having said that, making magic items would help our coffers. And the knights of the Bull have the room for a workshop and it benefits both of us.

As a merc company, it's one of the best things we can hope for because it allows tailor made, efficient gear for future recruits.


As for finding a specialist... Or at least someone who knows what they're doing.
Our closest bet would be Laurelorn. Elves.
Other options are
Ice witches(geographic locked)
Hag witch... Maybe?
hedge wizards?

Other options require travel.
Or good relationship with the Asur... Sadly not possible in the immediate future.

I'm personally hoping for dawi friendship if I had a genie to wish on.
I think you're supremely overestimating the ease of making magic gear and underestimating it's value if you're talking about it as a bonus for recruits. One of our swordmasters' blades would probably sell for around the price of a demigryph egg if not more--magic items are a big value sink. I'm pretty sure not even the white lions, personal force of the phoenix king himself that they are, are all equipped with magic items.

There are many positive qualities attached to magic weapons. Efficiency is not one of them, especially since we didn't take the trait to be skilled at it in character creation. For the effort and value of creating a single magical weapon, we could probably learn a piece of battle magic or hire a couple dozen more humans to have a bigger battlefield impact than having one of our non-swordmaster underlings hitting slightly better.
 
Sunfang would be perfect for Tyrion, and should be left for him. We don't need to make things harder for him.
Who says us not getting the sword means Tyrion getting it though? What's to say that Argentes doesn't get killed fighting as a mercenary in Kislev against the Norscans with Sunfang ending up as some chieftain's weapon? Or someone from the elven quarter in Erengard recognizing that Argentes is using an enchnated elven blade, perhaps even that it is Sunfang, and "recovering" Sunfang from him.
 
I think you're supremely overestimating the ease of making magic gear and underestimating it's value if you're talking about it as a bonus for recruits
Allow me to rephrase. Future recruited hero/specialist units.

And notice that I never mentioned the difficulty of item creation, simply that it's best left to someone else BECAUSE we aren't specialized in it. And that it would be a good idea to invest some effort into making that possible

We didn't recognize the sword as Sunfang. We nat 1 that check. The ship has sailed and any attempt at following it is metagaming.
if only we had access to a book of elven weapons. ;)
 
We didn't recognize the sword as Sunfang. We nat 1 that check. The ship has sailed and any attempt at following it is metagaming.
Which is fair enough, I even said earlier that I wouldn't want to be the reason for the thread to metagame over it. But I'm allowed to respond to arguments made by other posters, and I do think some arguments people had been making like how Sunfang wouldn't have been good enough for our swordmasters, or how we'd be taking it away from Tyrion, are pretty questionable. If nothing else unlike most people who might end up taking Sunfang from Argentes in Kislev we could have been persuaded to hand it over to T and T if they showed up looking for it, probably for something like an honor bound favor if the thread did go for it.

In contrast if Argentes ends up dying in Norsca we might end up seeing the sword again, during the GWAC, being used by some Chaos Lord.
 
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That, or one of his descendants did so. When does Teclis find Sunfang again?
It's specifically noted that it is someone of the same name who lost Sunfang in Lustria, but that wouldn't necessarily stop it from being a descendant of Argentes. That said we're close enough to the events of Malekith's invasion of Ulthuan, when Tyrion prominently used Sunfang, that it would have to be something like his already adult, or close to it, son with the same name.

They actually seem to find it in canon in the seventies, so something like a little less then two decades before now.

Maybe Argentes decided to not take that trip to Lustria twenty years ago?
 
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It's specifically noted that it is someone of the same name who lost Sunfang in Lustria, but that wouldn't necessarily stop it from being a descendant of Argentes. That said we're close enough to the events of Malekith's invasion of Ulthuan, when Tyrion prominently used Sunfang, that it would have to be something like his already adult, or close to it, son with the same name.

They actually seem to find it in canon in the seventies, so something like a little less then two decades before now.

Maybe Argentes decided to not take that trip to Lustria twenty years ago?
No, the wiki's just taking something too literally. In that chapter, Tyrion mentions Teclis has changed 'over the last century'. The events of the last book occurred when the Twins were 16, in 2173 ish, so 100 years later would be the 2270s. But the rest of the book makes it pretty clear that they find the sword the year of the Druchii invasion, 2301. They return and Tyrion goes to compete to become the Everqueen's champion, because Alarielle's mother just died. He's still there doing that when the Druchii invade.
 
No, the wiki's just taking something too literally. In that chapter, Tyrion mentions Teclis has changed 'over the last century'. The events of the last book occurred when the Twins were 16, in 2173 ish, so 100 years later would be the 2270s. But the rest of the book makes it pretty clear that they find the sword the year of the Druchii invasion, 2301. They return and Tyrion goes to compete to become the Everqueen's champion, because Alarielle's mother just died. He's still there doing that when the Druchii invade.
Fair enough. So a decade from now. Lets hope then that if we aren't the ones to get the blade that it would be Tyrion that does. There are a lot of people other then us who could potentially end up taking the blade from Argentes in a period of ten years, and vanishingly few of those are likely to be the sort to be willing to trade the Sword to TnT like we might have been.
 
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Also, "being Mathilde" would require Fanriel to be so much BFFs with Dwarfs that they collectivelty think that "she has soul of Dwarf" :o :o:o
 
I think you're supremely overestimating the ease of making magic gear and underestimating it's value if you're talking about it as a bonus for recruits. One of our swordmasters' blades would probably sell for around the price of a demigryph egg if not more--magic items are a big value sink. I'm pretty sure not even the white lions, personal force of the phoenix king himself that they are, are all equipped with magic items.

There are many positive qualities attached to magic weapons. Efficiency is not one of them, especially since we didn't take the trait to be skilled at it in character creation. For the effort and value of creating a single magical weapon, we could probably learn a piece of battle magic or hire a couple dozen more humans to have a bigger battlefield impact than having one of our non-swordmaster underlings hitting slightly better.
The two magic items I'd be most interested in making in case we actually could make magic items would be an arcane item to enhance our spell craft and a magic banner to empower our troops.

Not all magic items are ones that are shanked into people, and some of them like banners can even be an outright force multiplier for an army.
 
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I really don't think just seeking out the Hag Witches, a secretive order of hedge wizards and spirit binders who answer to nobody, and asking them to share their secrets is going to be productive.
Yeah, if we want them to teach us we need an impressive reputation and to have done many great things for them.

Regarding Sunfang, I know this will be an unpopular opinion bordering on sacrilege for us loot goblins but I think we should just leave it alone. The weight of it's destiny lies upon another, we shouldn't interfere.
In-character, we have no idea the sword is anything more than a regular enchanted elvish blade. It means we have no particular reason to go after Argentes to take his sword back, doing so would be pure and simple metagaming. There's also the fact that taking it means there's virtually no chance Tyrion ever gets his hands on it before the Druchii invasion, which would be bad.
 
In-character, we have no idea the sword is anything more than a regular enchanted elvish blade. It means we have no particular reason to go after Argentes to take his sword back, doing so would be pure and simple metagaming.

To be fair elves do have a tendency to try to get Ithilmar items humans manage to dig up in the old world, but otherwise yeah. If Blackout decides of his own initiative to give us a second bite at the apple by having us organically meet him at a time in which we have enough money we could conceivably buy it from him, though given how attached to the sword it seems unlikely he'd be willing to sell, or if he dies while fighting in along us in another mission so we can take it before someone else does that would be one thing, but for reasons of avoiding meta gaming I don't think I could bear actively seeking him out, even if ironically before finding out about it he might have been one of the people we would have been looking for when searching mercenaries to work with.

pure and simple metagaming. There's also the fact that taking it means there's virtually no chance Tyrion ever gets his hands on it before the Druchii invasion, which would be bad.

This though is just blatant metagaming. I don't think it's even true. Canonically TnT find Sunfang by actively hunting it down. Us getting it would probably end up with them looking us up, at which point we could just trade the blade if we decided we wanted to. What could result in Tyrion not getting it would be if it ended up somewhere TnT couldn't get it from rather then Lustria, like if some Chaos Lord ends up taking it from Argentes' corpse or some other Asur seeing the sword and recognizing its value before getting it for themselves, in which case it'd be incredibly unlikely they'd be willing to trade away something so valuable to TnT, particularly before they earn their fames.
 
To be fair elves do have a tendency to try to get Ithilmar items humans manage to dig up in the old world, but otherwise yeah. If Blackout decides of his own initiative to give us a second bite at the apple by having us organically meet him at a time in which we have enough money we could conceivably buy it from him, though given how attached to the sword it seems unlikely he'd be willing to sell, or if he dies while fighting in along us in another mission so we can take it before someone else does that would be one thing, but for reasons of avoiding meta gaming I don't think I could bear actively seeking him out, even if ironically before finding out about it he might have been one of the people we would have been looking for when searching mercenaries to work with.
Sure, if we organically cross path with him again, I'm all down with trying to buy it. But Fanriel would have no reason to think it's a legendary weapon, and so no reason to be extra demanding.

This though is just blatant metagaming. I don't think it's even true. Canonically TnT find Sunfang by actively hunting it down. Us getting it would probably end up with them looking us up, at which point we could just trade the blade if we decided we wanted to. What could result in Tyrion not getting it would be if it ended up somewhere TnT couldn't get it from rather then Lustria, like if some Chaos Lord ends up taking it from Argentes' corpse or some other Asur seeing the sword and recognizing its value before getting it for themselves, in which case it'd be incredibly unlikely they'd be willing to trade away something so valuable to TnT, particularly before they earn their fames.
I'd argue it's less metagamey than looking after Argentes just because of it.
They actively went looking for it? When did Tyrion find it relatively to the Druchii invasion and the Choas one?
 
I'd argue it's less metagamey than looking after Argentes just because of it.
Both are metagaming. While looking up Argentes in order to get Sunfang strikes me as pretty blatant metagaming, you can at least sorta justify it on a basis like Argentes being a solid mercenary we know or us having an interest in recovering even a "normal" elven blade. But people are seriously arguing we shouldn't recover one of the most valuable lost elven relics in existence and the sword of our ancestor because we know that in canon somebody the posters like, whom Fanriel has never even met and has no reason to think would be looking for Argentes' sword, ends up getting it. That's pretty metagamey.

When did Tyrion find it relatively to the Druchii invasion and the Choas one?

They take a ship from Marienburg to Lustria when they hear that their latest lead for where Sunfang is went on an expedition to Lustria.
 
I believe there may be a biological/spiritual element to the dwarven attitude around debts. Perhaps they simply can't forgive a wrong or forget a kindness without suffering a complete mental breakdown. If this is the case, then dwarves possess very limited free will, as they are constantly compelled to pay their debts.
Not at all. I forget who first came up with it, but the best explanation for almost all dwarf... dwarfiness is that they do not experience habituation. And this is both good and bad! Sure, a Dawi will never stop feeling the exact same degree of grief and rage that they felt when their loved ones died, but it's also the source of their ability to spend fucking centuries mastering things, as this also means Dawi do not get bored. Ever. A Dwarf is perfectly fucking happy eating the exact same thing every damn day, just the way their momma made it. They do not get 'tired' of their job, or 'stuck in a rut', they just keep on going and getting better at it at the same time. Hell, the source of all the 'things aren't as good as the old days' is that it really isn't and they can remember exactly what it was like tasting that single drop of two-thousand-year-old ale as a beardling. Today's brews just aren't that good, and their brains won't let them fool themselves into thinking it is like humans do. This isn't a matter of free will, it's just that we as humans are not good at understanding what it's like to have brains that don't fucking lie to us all the time. Cos ours do that a lot.
 
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