The dwarfs have different levels of grudge, depending on who is obligated to try to seek vengeance for it. Every dwarf has a personal Book of Grudges (or they may create one at any time, should they not have one already), every clan has its own Book of Grudges, every Karak has its own Book of Grudges, and the Great Book of Grudges is held by the High King in Karaz-A-Karak. There are also guild grudges, but they function a bit differently and don't slot into a neat pyramid.

Any dwarf can issue a personal grudge for any reason, but at the same time, nobody aside from their own children is obligated to respect it or help the dwarf right it, which serves to disincentivize frivolous grudges. Sure, you can declare a grudge over the fact that the axeshaft you bought from the Carpenters' Guild snapped after a mere two hundred years, but if you tried to take that to the Reckoners or the Thanes you would get laughed at.

However, every dwarf also has the right to bring the matter to their clan's Thane, and if the wrong done to their kinsman is deemed severe enough to be a grudge against not just him as an individual, but the clan as a whole, they will write it down in the clan's Book of Grudges. From then on out, every member of that clan has a duty and responsibility to try to avenge that grudge whenever they have the opportunity.

But every Thane in a Karak also has the right to escalate the matter and bring it to their King, who may enter it into the hold's Book of Grudges, which now places that responsibility to avenge it on the Karak and every dwarf in it. And likewise, every King in the Karaz Ankor has the right to petition the High King to add a grudge to the Great Book of Grudges, extending it to cover every dwarf alive (at least in theory).

This functions as a release valve for the dwarfs' vengefulness: if the grudge is severe enough that the dwarf would otherwise run off by themselves and get themselves killed trying to right it, the clan can write it down and that dwarf can go back to his life content that the clan will eventually take restitution for it, even if it takes millennia. If a clan lacks the resources to avenge a grudge and the King doesn't want his jewelsmith clan to all pick up weapons and go die charging into a Skaven tunnel, he can enter it into the Karak's book of grudges to allay their concerns that the dwarfhold's greater resources will allow them to handle the matter better. And likewise if the High King doesn't want an entire Karak of the Karaz Ankor to be obsessing over a grudge when they could be focusing on other concerns, he can enter it into the Great Book of Grudges to ensure that even should that Karak fall someone will right that wrong eventually.

But looping back around to your question, at each level if the matter was not escalated any higher and the people responsible for avenging a grudge die out, that grudge dies with them. If a dwarf dies childless, his personal grudges will remain forever unavenged. If a clan is wiped out, all of its grudges go with it. If a Karak and all of its clans are destroyed its grudges do not automatically transfer over to another hold, though in practice this almost never happens because there's usually at least some survivors to be absorbed as refugees. And naturally if the dwarfs were to be exterminated, there would be nobody left to avenge any grudges.

Of course, none of that stops other dwarfs from declaring grudges to avenge their fallen kin, but those are new grudges being created, not the old ones being transferred.

For a grudge to go extinct is seen as deeply shameful for those who failed to fulfill them in life, which is a big part of why dwarfs don't usually like to get themselves killed trying to avenge grudges because that inevitably leaves others unfulfilled. But it is also a fact of life that it happens sometimes, and it can't have been that bad or else it would have been escalated higher.

Interestingly one of the consequences of this system is that personal grudges set by female Dwarfs will be seen as far more dangerous to their subject then that of the grudges of the vast majority of male Dwarfs, because female Dwarfs are far more likely to have heirs that will be obligated to carry their mother's/grand mother's/great grand mother's/etc,etc grudge then most male Dwarfs are.


YES. We don't need the Cult of Vaul and Student of the Anvil to make magic items, we'll make our own magic crafting tradition.

Well, Realm of the Ice Queen doesn't have any magic items in it that I'm aware of, and the only magic items in WH3 that would explicitly be the work of Hag Witches would be Ostankya's personal items, which is obviously a different matter from what Hags in general are capable of.

The generic magic items largely seem to be the work of Ice Witches or articles of faith, but I do see one possibility in the list.

totalwarwarhammer.fandom.com

Blood of the Motherland

Blood of the Motherland is a Talisman in Total War: Warhammer III. It is unique to Kislev. A phial of soil taken from the ground around the gates of Praag, infused with the blood of her heroic fallen defenders. Passive ability: "Blood of the Motherland"


Not explicitly stated to be Hag work, but for one of their spells in RotIQ (Form of the Ancient Widow), the casting ingredient is 2 fistfuls of Kislevite soil soaked in the witch's blood. So Hags have a noted history of using blooded Kislev soil.

Nice. The concept of crafting magic items by implementing them with elementals is actually an excellent reason to try to look up the Hag Witches while we are still in Erengard. Learning a method that the Hag Witches have for crafting magic items with spirits might take us a long way in learning how to craft magic items with elementals compared to just trying to develop a method of our own from the start.
 
Interestingly one of the consequences of this system is that personal grudges set by female Dwarfs will be seen as far more dangerous to their subject then that of the grudges of the vast majority of male Dwarfs, because female Dwarfs are far more likely to have heirs that will be obligated to carry their mother's/grand mother's/great grand mother's/etc,etc grudge then most male Dwarfs are.



YES. We don't need the Cult of Vaul and Student of the Anvil to make magic items, we'll make our own magic crafting tradition.



Nice. The concept of crafting magic items by implementing them with elementals is actually an excellent reason to try to look up the Hag Witches while we are still in Erengard. Learning a method that the Hag Witches have for crafting magic items with spirits might take us a long way in learning how to craft magic items with elementals compared to just trying to develop a method of our own from the start.
Shoving a fire elemental into a sword is actually how Sunfang was made.
 
Shoving a fire elemental into a sword is actually how Sunfang was made.

I don't know about that, but guys, I just realized something. Do you remember that magical Ithilmar sword that Argentes was carrying? It's Sunfang. Argentes has been using of the sword of our many times great grand father Aenarion.

He apparently takes a trip to Lustria at some point and dies there, with Tyrion and Teclis managing to recover the sword.

Edit: Man, what a roll to get a nat 1 on.
 
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Anyway this has some interesting possibilities. While we have no idea what the sword is IC, if we somehow ended up butterflying Argentes' trip to Lustria away then it might result in us meeting the wonder twins early when they come looking for Sunfang, as they do in canon.
 
Surely at least some Dwarfs must see through this procrastinating method.

Say a Dwarf lost a loved one to an Orc attack. Of course he brings this up to his superiors and the Grudge is deemed sufficient enough to have its place in the Book of the Clan/Karak. Then the poor soul has to hope, that one day somebody somewhere will avenge this Grudge. Meanwhile he shall sit there stirring in his own juices, while his Ancestors shall know no peace. Can't it be seen as a weakness, rather than strength, to remove the responsibility from one's shoulders and do literary anything else, essentially forgetting the Grudge in all but name, since he doesn't have to pursue it himself anymore?
Sure, that absolutely does happen. Recording the grudge just gives you the option of setting it aside, that doesn't mean all dwarfs take that option.

However, dwarfs are very traditional, and this is the system set up by Grungni, Grimnir and Valaya. To say that you don't trust it to handle the grudge is to say that you have lost faith in the Karaz Ankor's future. Which yes, does happen, but it takes quite a lot to reach that point.

Typically such dwarfs will become Slayers, because they feel like they have no road ahead of them that does not shame their Ancestors, and the only option left is to try to expunge their shame.

What if a King would actually strictly forbid said jewelsmith clan to go out and die in that Skaven tunnel, when they will finally say, that they are tired of waiting for vengeance to arrive?
What would happen in practice is that they would negotiate. Maybe if the jewelsmiths wait ten years the Karak's full Throng can be turned to addressing the grudge, and with overwhelming force they will take minimal casualties. Maybe they can avenge another grudge from the clan's Book of Grudges. Maybe they can find a compromise, another way to avenge the grudge rather than just walking down that skaven tunnel?

Managing the clans and the grudges in this manner is one of the most important duties of a dwarf king. But if the Jewelsmiths are dead-set on it right now, no delays, no compromises, then the King only really has three options: forbid them, help them, or let them die.

While technically within their authority, a pragmatic King will know that forbidding a dwarf from seeking vengeance will almost certainly lead to them swearing the Slayer Oath and dying anyway, so they would only do it with very good reason. Helping them is of course in an ideal world the best option, but the resources of the hold are limited. If sending more dwarfs will just lead to more deaths, then just letting the Jewelsmiths get themselves killed may be the only option left.

Are dwarves fully responsible for their actions?
Are elves fully responsible for their actions because they are by their nature arrogant? Are humans fully responsible for their actions because they are easily corrupted?
I don't know about that, but guys, I just realized something. Do you remember that magical Ithilmar sword that Argentes was carrying? It's Sunfang. Argentes has been using of the sword of our many times great grand father Aenarion.

He apparently takes a trip to Lustria at some point and dies there, with Tyrion and Teclis managing to recover the sword.

Edit: Man, what a roll to get a nat 1 on.
I was starting to think that nobody would ever notice that.
 
I was starting to think that nobody would ever notice that.
Feels kinda bad man. I don't want to be the cause of the thread delving into meta gaming, but I fear this might colour our interactions with him, particularly given how badly this would rub with my tendency towards power gaming:oops:

Though something that isn't dependent on any meta gaming from us like the wonder twins showing up in Kislev would be pretty cool. Would make for a good way to get a head start on my plan for us to seduce Teclis.
 
Feels kinda bad man. I don't want to be the cause of the thread delving into meta gaming, but I fear this might colour our interactions with him, particularly given how badly this would rub with my tendency towards power gaming:oops:

Though something that isn't dependent on any meta gaming from us like the wonder twins showing up in Kislev would be pretty cool. Would make for a good way to get a head start on my plan for us to seduce Teclis.
Given his movements--Estalia, Erengrad, potentially Lustria--he seems like the type to stay mobile and coastal. Given that we were just planning on moving inland to avoid the sealord, it's possible we just don't encounter him again.
 
Given his movements--Estalia, Erengrad, potentially Lustria--he seems like the type to stay mobile and coastal. Given that we were just planning on moving inland to avoid the sealord, it's possible we just don't encounter him again.
Though if this turns out to be the way for us to get that Lustrian trip for a carnosaur mount that I mentioned then I admit, I will be very amused :lol:

Depends on what Blackout decides. He might also decide to wait in order for Dorial to heal so he can get that match he was talking about.

Mind if the wonder twins do show up and he's still here then I expect bad things in his future. Tyrion has killed for a lot less then Sunfang. Teclis however probably wouldn't have to work too hard to take the sword from him via confounding him somehow with his magics without killing him.
 
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Mind if the wonder twins do show up and he's still here then I expect bad things in his future. Tyrion has killed for a lot less then Sunfang. Teclis however probably wouldn't have to work too hard to take the sword from him via confounding him somehow with his magics without killing him.
That's assuming the Asur aren't already on the warpath to recover the blade.

Given that it was seen by quite a few of them, it's not unreasonable to think, that agents from Ulthuan are already trying to buy it from him.
 
That's assuming the Asur aren't already on the warpath to recover the blade.

Given that it was seen by quite a few of them, it's not unreasonable to think, that agents from Ulthuan are already trying to buy it from him.

Was it? Argentes didn't fight with Asur other then our men. All of Wavestrider's forces would have been fighting a fair distance away. Even if they did recognize that he was using a sword made out of Ithilmar they might not have recognized that it was the sword made out of Ithilmar, as we didn't.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Blackout on May 28, 2024 at 3:26 PM, finished with 308 posts and 34 votes.
 
Hurray! The foul daemon called lod'ging has been banished back to the realm of chaos for the foreseeable future.
No longer shall its money grubbing hands/claws/tentacles torment our expenses and warchest.
 
Oh no please don't turn Fanriel into yet another warhammer quest character that can make magic items. There are more than enough of those. I just want my mercenaries and my spells and possibly elementally possessed gribblies.
 
Oh no please don't turn Fanriel into yet another warhammer quest character that can make magic items. There are more than enough of those. I just want my mercenaries and my spells and possibly elementally possessed gribblies.

I'll be honest, I haven't played most of those quests, so I don't share this fatigue. That said that we'd be able to craft items doesn't seem like it'd have to mean that it'd be all we do? It could be just one of several arrows in our quiver of what we can do. Us knowing spells from Ulgu wouldn't make us Mathilde would it?
 
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I just don't want to bother with it at all in the first place, we've got so many other things to focus on, some of which I haven't seen in any other Warhammer Quests. I want to shove wind elementals into critters and see what happens because we already know what happens when you shove them into swords and things.
 
I just don't want to bother with it at all in the first place, we've got so many other things to focus on, some of which I haven't seen in any other Warhammer Quests. I want to shove wind elementals into critters and see what happens because we already know what happens when you shove them into swords and things.

I suppose it'll just come to a vote at some point. Personally I'd like to do both, but only after we spend sometime with the Hag Witches to see what we can get them to teach us about spirits. Others seem to actually disdain the idea of using them on critters, but might not to using them on items.
 
I just don't want to bother with it at all in the first place, we've got so many other things to focus on, some of which I haven't seen in any other Warhammer Quests. I want to shove wind elementals into critters and see what happens because we already know what happens when you shove them into swords and things.
Speaking of being Mathilde, chickens would surely make good test subjects. :thonk:
 
I suppose it'll just come to a vote at some point. Personally I'd like to do both, but only after we spend sometime with the Hag Witches to see what we can get them to teach us about spirits. Others seem to actually disdain the idea of using them on critters, but might not to using them on items.
I really don't think just seeking out the Hag Witches, a secretive order of hedge wizards and spirit binders who answer to nobody, and asking them to share their secrets is going to be productive.
 
I really don't think just seeking out the Hag Witches, a secretive order of hedge wizards and spirit binders who answer to nobody, and asking them to share their secrets is going to be productive.
I suppose it'll just come to a vote at some point. Personally I'd like to do both, but only after we spend sometime with the Hag Witches to see what we can get them to teach us about spirits. Others seem to actually disdain the idea of using them on critters, but might not to using them on items.

If they won't be willing to teach us, then just means that it won't take long. That said, we have Diplomacy 30 and maybe they'll have something they want doing that we could perform in exchange for their knowledge.
 
Regarding Sunfang, I know this will be an unpopular opinion bordering on sacrilege for us loot goblins but I think we should just leave it alone. The weight of it's destiny lies upon another, we shouldn't interfere.

We've already got some of the best kit on the planet, let's not cross fate for what is, bizarrely enough, only a small step up from what we have.

If Blackout more or less throws the opportunity in our face again then sure, go for it. But short of that I'd say leave it be.
 
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