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Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy

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Netos said:
The aforementioned paradise has a gigantic radioactive vortex rotating all over it. So Druchii and Asrai have the maximum number of children Elves can get, and they are around replacement rate (ironically, the Druchii may have a slightly higher rate, but also have more losses reaving/defending the Watchtowers/going to Ultuhan to kill Asur/murdering each other/whathaveyou).
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It's not like the Asurs are bathing themselves in the Vortex. And even if it's dangerous to be near it (which nothing even hints at), the Druchii are right next to the Choas Wastes, which would have an even worse effect.
 
K von Carstein said:
Furthemore, the Druchii and Asrai don't seem to have that problem. Given that the firsts live in a mostly cold and desolate land while the seconds live in little villages hidden in the woods, the fact they have more children than the Asurs (who live in a paradise) is a bit strange.
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There is a noted trend irl of poor families tending to have more children than well off ones. It is believed that this is a instictual reaction to harsh conditions, the rationale being that having more kids means at least a few will survive. You see this with animals too, prey species tend to breed more than predators.

Several first world countries are having issues with declining birth rates due to this irl, so a paradise like Ulthuan probably has similar issues.

I recall there was a Phoenix King quest that brought this up once but it has been abandoned.
 
Have you ever heard the words "There are as many elves as the plot needs?"

One of the problems with Asur lore is that GW tells us that they are a dying race, but in practice their writing shows us them as being able to constantly suffer massive catastrophes and sustain incredible amounts of casualties. So the part where the armybook says that the Asur birth rate is so bad their population is declining even at peace? I... kind of find myself having to ignore that, just because it breaks my suspension of disbelief that they haven't been wiped out already if that was the case. Or rather, I just interpret 'peace' for the Asur meaning 'not in an active deathwar with the Druchii', not that they've stopped being the Shield of Civilization/World Police. They're not a dying race that somehow manages to sustain massive casualties in spite of that, they are a dying race because they sustain massive casualties.

As for why the elves don't breed explosively despite living for centuries while their pregnancies take no longer than humans? Well, their actual fertility rate, that is, the odds of becoming pregnant from sex, are very low. One thing I've been considering is that elves might be biologically unable to conceive from a one night stand, and even having a chance of pregnancy requires multiple instances of intercourse with the same partner over a period of time. After all, Tyrion slept his way through Ulthuan but only conceived a child when he entered into a stable and committed relationship. This would also compound with what I've said earlier about how most Asur won't even start thinking about settling down until about the age of 150. It takes a lot of concentrated effort to even try to conceive a child, and 'happy accidents' are very rare.

Another possibility is that elves may have a longer recovery time after giving birth until they can get pregnant again. Rats can become pregnant within a day of giving birth to a litter, humans take a few weeks, but elephants for an example need to wait multiple years before they can have another calf (this is one of the major reasons humans never domesticated elephants IRL, only tamed them; selective breeding takes too long). I see no reason why elves couldn't take, say, multiple decades before becoming fertile again as a quirk of their biology.

Or perhaps it's both of the above, or some other cultural, magical or biological factor.

As for the other kinds of elves, well, who's to say that they breed faster than the Asur? The Wood Elves armybook says that they neither grow nor dwindle, their population remaining stable since their founding. The entire thematic underpinning of their relationship is that the Asrai are true isolationists who very rarely leave their nigh-unassailable forest and concern themselves only with its business, finding the Asur shouldering the responsibility for saving the world to be foolhardy and self-destructive.

And as to the Druchii, well, there may be ways of enhancing fertility that they find palatable that the Asur reject, but even then... they have lost every single war that they have fought with the Asur, despite heavily supplementing their numbers with slaves and human auxiliaries, and provoking wars between Ulthuan and third parties. Even during the Sundering it was clear that they were outnumbered in terms of population, but punched above their numbers due to starting with a large and cohesive professional army.

Ulthuan's golden age may be long gone, its population may have declined, but Naggaroth was formed from the survivors of one of the Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan, and before the War of Vengeance there was talk of making the Old World colonies into the Eleventh- before you subtract casualties from the war, and those who accepted the Edict of Evacuation.

They obviously don't have access to census data from Naggaroth, Athel Loren or Laurelorn, but Asur scholars believe, and can make a convincing argument for, that there's most likely still more elves living on Ulthuan than the rest of the world combined.
 
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K von Carstein said:
It's not like the Asurs are bathing themselves in the Vortex. And even if it's dangerous to be near it (which nothing even hints at), the Druchii are right next to the Choas Wastes, which would have an even worse effect.
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I will note that "Asur" is both singular and multiple. "An Asur" refers to a single individual, and "The Asur" refers to them as a whole- you don't say "The Asurs".

Boodlesnoop said:
This is the stated reason for the Eldar's low birth rate in 40k.
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I was under the impression the limiting factor on Eldar population was the lack of spirit stones as well as needing to avoid attracting Slaanesh, and that absent those factors Eldar fertility is just fine.

deathofrats0808 said:
I could have sworn it was specified somewhere, but a qick check of ET: Nagash doesn't come up with anything.
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Aliathra's lore is super weird anyway, because they were very obviously and hamfistedly trying to set up the whole "Teclis wants to resurrect Nagash to fight Chaos but doesn't want him strong enough to take over, so he tricks Arkhan into using Aliathra as a sacrifice but because she's Tyrion's daughter and not Finubar's, Nagash gets the Curse of Khaine rather than the blessing of Asuryan" twist in the End Times.

But that doesn't work on multiple levels. First of all, the whole Khaine/Asuryan thing doesn't make much sense, Alarielle is a descendant of Aenarion same as Tyrion, and is the daughter of a Phoenix King, so Nagash should have gotten hit by the Curse of Khaine even if the plan worked perfectly, and blessed by Asuryan even with Teclis' sabotage. But it's whatever, that's End Times nonsense for you.

But far more annoying to me is that Aliathra's entire situation makes no sense. According to the armybook, the Everchild must be the firstborn daughter of the old Everqueen, sired during her year-long marriage to the Phoenix King. But Tyrion and Alarielle couldn't keep it in their pants so Aliathra is Tyrion's daughter, not Finubar's. But the problem comes from the fact that Finubar is almost certainly Alarielle's father.

Tyrion was born six years before Finubar took the Phoenix Throne, and Alarielle is younger than him. Ergo Alarielle can't be the daughter of Bel-Hathor, because she would have needed to have been conceived when Bel-Hathor took the throne, and that would make her 650 years older than Tyrion. Even setting aside the explicit statement that Alarielle is younger than Tyrion, that is also very much how she's presented, young and inexperienced.

The only way Alarielle isn't Finubar's daughter is that the Everchild doesn't need to be the firstborn daughter and Bel-Hathor for some reason conceived her in the last few years of his life. But if the Everchild doesn't need to be the Everqueen's firstborn daughter, then there's no need for Alarielle and Tyrion to hide Aliathra's parentage, because as per the armybook the Phoenix King and the Everqueen are both explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have children with them, it's just that those children cannot become the Everchild. Finubar and Alarielle could just have another child.

So for the narrative around Aliathra to work, Alarielle needs to be Finubar's daughter, which means that as far as everyone else thought, Aliathra was the result of father-daughter incest. Which, first of all, fucking ew, and second of all, we know that the Asur have a taboo against incest because Yvraine cited it as a reason who Malekith can't become Phoenix King- he'd have to marry her and they can't do that because they're half-siblings.

Something has to give. Either Aliathra's backstory doesn't work, or the Asur are fine with incest. And let me tell you, at least as far as MMQ is concerned, it's not going to be the latter.
 
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Blackout said:
I will note that "Asur" is both singular and multiple. "An Asur" refers to a single individual, and "The Asur" refers to them as a whole- you don't say "The Asurs".


I was under the impression the limiting factor on Eldar population was the lack of spirit stones as well as needing to avoid attracting Slaanesh, and that absent those factors Eldar fertility is just fine.


Aliathra's lore is super weird anyway, because they were very obviously and hamfistedly trying to set up the whole "Teclis wants to resurrect Nagash to fight Chaos but doesn't want him strong enough to take over, so he tricks Arkhan into using Aliathra as a sacrifice but because she's Tyrion's daughter and not Finubar's, Nagash gets the Curse of Khaine rather than the blessing of Asuryan" twist in the End Times.

But that doesn't work on multiple levels. First of all, the whole Khaine/Asuryan thing doesn't make much sense, Alarielle is a descendant of Aenarion same as Tyrion, and is the daughter of a Phoenix King, so Nagash should have gotten hit by the Curse of Khaine even if the plan worked perfectly, and blessed by Asuryan even with Teclis' sabotage. But it's whatever, that's End Times nonsense for you.

But far more annoying to me is that Aliathra's entire situation makes no sense. According to the armybook, the Everchild must be the firstborn daughter of the old Everqueen, sired during her year-long marriage to the Phoenix King. But Tyrion and Alarielle couldn't keep it in their pants so Aliathra is Tyrion's daughter, not Finubar's. But the problem comes from the fact that Finubar is almost certainly Alarielle's father.

Tyrion was born six years before Finubar took the Phoenix Throne, and Alarielle is younger than him. Ergo Alarielle can't be the daughter of Bel-Hathor, because she would have needed to have been conceived when Bel-Hathor took the throne, and that would make her 650 years older than Tyrion. Even setting aside the explicit statement that Alarielle is younger than Tyrion, that is also very much how she's presented, young and inexperienced.

The only way Alarielle isn't Finubar's daughter is that the Everchild doesn't need to be the firstborn daughter and Bel-Hathor for some reason conceived her in the last few years of his life. But if the Everchild doesn't need to be the Everqueen's firstborn daughter, then there's no need for Alarielle and Tyrion to hide Aliathra's parentage, because as per the armybook the Phoenix King and the Everqueen are both explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have children with them, it's just that those children cannot become the Everchild. Finubar and Alarielle could just have another child.

So for the narrative around Aliathra to work, Alarielle needs to be Finubar's daughter, which means that as far as everyone else thought, Aliathra was the result of father-daughter incest. Which, first of all, fucking ew, and second of all, we know that the Asur have a taboo against incest because Yvraine cited it as a reason who Malekith can't become Phoenix King- he'd have to marry her and they can't do that because they're half-siblings.

Something has to give. Either Aliathra's backstory doesn't work, or the Asur are fine with incest. And let me tell you, at least as far as MMQ is concerned, it's not going to the latter.
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Alarielle could perhaps be Bel Hathor's daughter if she had an older sister who suffered a premature death, requiring the conception of a new everchild later in Bel Hathor's reign. The Everchild is pretty well guarded but Alarielle could theoretically have had an older sister who chocked on a pretzel or something.
 
Blackout said:
I was under the impression the limiting factor on Eldar population was the lack of spirit stones as well as needing to avoid attracting Slaanesh, and that absent those factors Eldar fertility is just fine.
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You are correct, the limiting factor is spirit stone availability. The Eldar also do canonically need to bang multiple times in order to carry a pregnancy to term, though it doesn't all have to be with the same partner, and they are naturally... *driven* enough that they never have a problem with making more kids.
 
Imperious said:
Alarielle could perhaps be Bel Hathor's daughter if she had an older sister who suffered a premature death, requiring the conception of a new everchild later in Bel Hathor's reign. The Everchild is pretty well guarded but Alarielle could theoretically have had an older sister who chocked on a pretzel or something.
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I mean, Alarielle canonically does have a sister who fell from a tree and broke her neck, but that happened while Alarielle was alive.

And yeah, Alarielle could have been conceived late into Bel-Hathor's reign after the first Everchild died... but then she wouldn't be Estrielle's firstborn. And if the Everchild doesn't need to be the firstborn, if the Phoenix King and the Everqueen can come together to make a new Everchild after the first one perishes, that would indicate that the Everqueen having older, non-Phoenix King sired children does not present an obstacle for the younger child conceived with the Phoenix King from becoming the Everchild, because the Everqueen is explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have other children.

But if that is not an issue, then there's no reason to lie about Aliathra's parentage, Finubar and Alarielle could have just had another child and Aliathra could have been openly brought up as Tyrion's daughter as the Everqueen's consort.
 
Blackout said:
I mean, Alarielle canonically does have a sister who fell from a tree and broke her neck, but that happened while Alarielle was alive.
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There's always the possibility that Bel Hathor and Estarielle the Silver kept fucking each other and having kids even after their ritual marriage was over, and that Estarielle's later kids were also from Bel Hathor. There's no ban on the Phoenix King and Everqueen continuing to copulate after their ritual marriage is over AFAIK. Maybe they just liked each other?

Blackout said:
And yeah, Alarielle could have been conceived late into Bel-Hathor's reign after the first Everchild died... but then she wouldn't be Estrielle's firstborn. And if the Everchild doesn't need to be the firstborn, if the Phoenix King and the Everqueen can come together to make a new Everchild after the first one perishes, that would indicate that the Everqueen having older, non-Phoenix King sired children does not present an obstacle for the younger child conceived with the Phoenix King from becoming the Everchild, because the Everqueen is explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have other children.

But if that is not an issue, then there's no reason to lie about Aliathra's parentage, Finubar and Alarielle could have just had another child and Aliathra could have been openly brought up as Tyrion's daughter as the Everqueen's consort.
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The question is whether it needs to be the Everqueen's firstborn ever, or just her oldest. If it must be the firstborn than that does make the Everqueen line incredibly vulnerable to events like what happened with Alarielle's sister, but if it just needs to be the oldest than the issue is solved by the usual heir and spare.
 
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Blackout said:
And yeah, Alarielle could have been conceived late into Bel-Hathor's reign after the first Everchild died... but then she wouldn't be Estrielle's firstborn. And if the Everchild doesn't need to be the firstborn, if the Phoenix King and the Everqueen can come together to make a new Everchild after the first one perishes, that would indicate that the Everqueen having older, non-Phoenix King sired children does not present an obstacle for the younger child conceived with the Phoenix King from becoming the Everchild, because the Everqueen is explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have other children.
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Definitionally at least ONE part of "The everchild is the firstborn daughter of the everqueen, sired by the phoenix king" is not actually a hard requirement because the Everqueens predate the existence of the Pheonix Kings.
 
Imperious said:
The question is whether it needs to be the Everqueen's firstborn ever, or just her oldest. If it must be the firstborn than that does make the Everqueen line incredibly vulnerable to events like what happened with Alarielle's sister, but if it just needs to be the oldest than the issue is solved by the usual heir and spare.
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Yes, that is why I went with the idea that they are not so rigid about it, but that invalidates Aliathra's backstory, because if they are not rigid about it there's no reason to lie about her parentage.

If I wanted to make Aliathra work conceptually, I would lean into how Alarielle is Finubar's daughter so they won't have a new Everchild until the next Phoenix King is crowned and has a kid with her. Normally this wouldn't be a problem because there would be spares in the form of her sisters and aunts, and the Everqueen is the most heavily-guarded person on the planet who never goes into danger. But all of the spares were assassinated by Malekith, and Alarielle is breaking millennia of tradition by leading armies into war, which threatens to cut off the entire lineage of the Everqueens since she has no heir.

So her, Tyrion and Finubar come up with a plot to have Aliathra as the Everchild, to have a spare heir in case something happens to Alarielle. Sure, she's not the daughter of the Phoenix King, but neither was Astarielle or the Everqueens before her, and it's better to break tradition than leave Ulthuan without an Everqueen. Plus Tyrion is a favoured candidate for the next Phoenix King anyway, especially if Finubar nominates him as his successor, so the situation will hopefully correct itself in time.

But I'm not sure I'd want to do that for a character whose entire existence and purpose was invented wholesale for some stupid End Times twist plot that makes no sense. Why are they sending the heir to the Everthrone to have diplomatic talks with dwarfs anyway, when Alarielle was raised in total secrecy in Avelorn until her mother died?

Warmachine375 said:
Won't that be a potential scandal or no one in Ulthuan will say it with Tyrion kicking their asses or just glare at them MENACINGLY?
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No, because the Everqueen is explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have other children, they just can't (traditionally) become the next Everqueen.

reignonyrparade said:
Definitionally at least ONE part of "The everchild is the firstborn daughter of the everqueen, sired by the phoenix king" is not actually a hard requirement because the Everqueens predate the existence of the Pheonix Kings.
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It's not a hard requirement but a cultural one, born of the tradition established by Aenarion and Astarielle.
 
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Blackout said:
Yes, that is why I went with the idea that they are not so rigid about it, but that invalidates Aliathra's backstory, because if they are not rigid about it there's no reason to lie about her parentage.

If I wanted to make Aliathra work conceptually, I would lean into how Alarielle is Finubar's daughter so they won't have a new Everchild until the next Phoenix King is crowned and has a kid with her. Normally this wouldn't be a problem because there would be spares in the form of her sisters and aunts, and the Everqueen is the most heavily-guarded person on the planet who never goes into danger. But all of the spares were assassinated by Malekith, and Alarielle is breaking millennia of tradition by leading armies into war, which threatens to cut off the entire lineage of the Everqueens since she has no heir.

So her, Tyrion and Finubar come up with a plot to have Aliathra as the Everchild, to have a spare heir in case something happens to Alarielle. Sure, she's not the daughter of the Phoenix King, but neither was Astarielle or the Everqueens before her, and it's better to break tradition than leave Ulthuan without an Everqueen. Plus Tyrion is a favoured candidate for the next Phoenix King anyway, especially if Finubar nominates him as his successor, so the situation will hopefully correct itself in time.

But I'm not sure I'd want to do that for a character whose entire existence and purpose was invented wholesale for some stupid End Times twist plot that makes no sense. Why are they sending the heir to the Everthrone to have diplomatic talks with dwarfs anyway, when Alarielle was raised in total secrecy in Avelorn until her mother died?


No, because the Everqueen is explicitly allowed to take on other consorts and have other children, they just can't (traditionally) become the next Everqueen.


It's not a hard requirement but a cultural one, born of the tradition established by Aenarion and Astarielle.
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I'm a bit biased on the matter. The original Knight's Quest ran during the lull between the edition that introduced Aliathra and EoT, so the GM homebrewed that Manfred kidnapped Aliathra so he could sell her off to Slaanesh for a boon, resulting in an epic adventure by the PC to rescue her from the Realm of Slaanesh before Slaanesh itself got its hands on her.

The day we were told that she slapped Teclis for leaving the PC behind in the Realm of Chaos when he used his magics to spirit her away due to not being willing to go through the great effort required to get a second person away from the Realm of Chaos for a mere human she became something of a favorite of mine.

Though either way it doesn't seem like it'd matter too much, seeing as even by the canonical timeline Aliathra is yet to be born.
 
This does raise the question, if the next Everqueen is expected to come of the Everqueen's and the Phoenix King's loins, what's supposed to happen if the heiress dies prematurely? Are the Everqueen and Phoenix King supposed to copulate again until they produce a new heiress? Is it common for the Queen and King to produce more than one child with each other to begin with in order to have an heir and spare?
 
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