Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)

[Vebyast]

...God, we need to gather data. Really getting tired of uncertain variables. Makes me feel like I'm trying to get rocket to the moon...without a computer. And no calculus. Or like trying to get quantum physics without the damn math for it. I should know on that last one, I've done it. Frustrating as hell.

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I think that we do have a good bit of information on djinn in particular. We've taken two of them already, and Neph wasn't particularly concerned about an outright backstab attempt from a convenient nearby teacher. We could have an issue if djinn vary widely in power levels and we've been consistently encountering low-power djinn, but even taking that into account I think that our confidence bounds are tightening relatively quickly.

It's basically supposed to be equivalent to a major natural disaster, or the power of one.

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I will note that wide-area attacks are essentially useless against us; we have enough mobility to fly above inclement weather and shields that can tank essentially any terrestrial energetic event. About the only things I can think of that'd give us trouble would be cave collapses or extreme proximity to VEI-6+ volcanic eruptions, and even then only if we're close enough to get hit by large ejecta.

These actually sound like strategic options more than tactical options, a way for King Candidate to deal with armies and cities.

 

[fictionfan]

I think that the worry is more of them using extreme magic on one of our cities. Not sure if we could protect it besides of course sniping the candidate well he is charging up.

Edit: Which should do it in most cases. We can have a sensor web going beyond the horizon of our cities.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

Can we please just put off long-term planning until we can talk to experts and gather relevant information? I feel like a one-eyed man with cataracts and Alzheimer's trying to plan with the blind here. Not that I think you guys are shortsighted, more that I kinda know more about the setting...except it's all murky and uncertain.

Edit: The phrase "so out-of-my-depth I'm developing thallasophobia" also springs to mind.

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Agreed. We haven't spent a cumulative week in Magi yet; major moves can wait until we have more information and power. There's no rush.

A good plot for world domination uplift is like roasting a turkey: it requires careful preparation, the gathering of necessary ingredients, surgical removal of troublesome despots giblets, and plenty of time to leave it all cooking in the oven.

I think that we do have a good bit of information on djinn in particular. We've taken two of them already, and Neph wasn't particularly concerned about an outright backstab attempt from a convenient nearby teacher. We could have an issue if djinn vary widely in power levels and we've been consistently encountering low-power djinn, but even taking that into account I think that our confidence bounds are tightening relatively quickly.

I will note that wide-area attacks are essentially useless against us; we have enough mobility to fly above inclement weather and shields that can tank essentially any terrestrial energetic event. About the only things I can think of that'd give us trouble would be cave collapses or extreme proximity to VEI-6+ volcanic eruptions, and even then only if we're close enough to get hit by large ejecta.

These actually sound like strategic options more than tactical options, a way for King Candidate to deal with armies and cities.

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1) We haven't actually fought any Djinn. We negotiated with one, and stole the power of another then ran the hell away.

2) Jade has a fledgling kingdom to protect, of which the defenses aren't yet established. Even if you assume Jade can shrug off wide-area Extreme Magic (a dangerous assumption to make), her people can't. What's personally threatening to her is almost an afterthought.

 

[fictionfan]

We haven't spent a cumulative week in Magi yet;

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It has hasn't it? Man it feels so much longer.

 

[Vebyast]

Even if you assume Jade can shrug off wide-area Extreme Magic (a dangerous assumption to make),

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Ah, right, I knew there was something I was forgetting. That big glass hemisphere we found would be a representative use of Extreme Magic, right?

You spend the next forty-odd minutes in the Stalker, trying to find good places to summon your friends. The best spots you can find on short notice are the war-torn remains of some sort of royal city and the middle of a half-kilometer glass hemisphere, respectively. The latter doesn't seem something generated by the land itself, just temporary leftovers from whatever changed it to that state. You're still happy to take advantage.

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Sidhe spends a few seconds swaying uncertainly after you summon her. Once she recovers, she nods once and climbs into the Stalker, looking distracted.​

(Dregs Consumed: Glassed Grass [RRR]) + (Grassy Plain Tapped [G])​

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Half kilometer, so either 250m or 500m radius.

If you're holding still, it takes between four and seven (4-7) seconds for you to make a portal, depending on how far away the closest portal is. You can still make portals even if you're moving around, but it takes about three times as long and you need to stay in range of the entry point.

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Time it takes Jade to teleport: 5-ish seconds.

A golden distortion in space opens up in front of you less than a second after you finish speaking.

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Time it takes Agneyastra to teleport: negligible.

You have perfect maneuverability at up to 120 KPH. You can travel at 360 KPH if you really want to, but you'll pretty much only be able to go in relatively straight lines if you do that.

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Time to nearest edge if we can't teleport: 10-15 seconds if we're dodging the entire way, 3-5 seconds if we can go in a straight line. Agneyastra can probably go faster.

What do we think the charge time is on a big attack like that? Ten, fifteen seconds? Is it spammable? Can they keep us from teleporting out of range? Can they keep up enough offense while "concentrating" to make us spend effort on dodging?

I do actually think that Extreme Magic isn't something we need to really worry about. It's certainly something that we need to dodge as well as shielding and counterspelling and disrupting-the-concentration-of, but those are things we can do and will be prepared to do - MGLN magic has casting times and we have certainly trained to notice and disrupt the casting of big spells.

Jade has a fledgling kingdom to protect, of which the defenses aren't yet established.

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That only matters if our enemies escalate to stealthily deploying city-killers before trying to engage us in combat, with enough stealth to sneak past Agneyastra's drones and checkpoints, and without tipping off our precog. In other words, this is yet another stupid "rocks fall everyone dies" situation.

 

[Alivaril]

That only matters if our enemies escalate to stealthily deploying city-killers before trying to engage us in combat, with enough stealth to sneak past Agneyastra's drones and checkpoints, and without tipping off our precog. In other words, this is yet another stupid "rocks fall everyone dies" situation.

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*Whap*

Or something as simple as "Agneyastra only has a couple droids to go around right now, and you won't ALWAYS be on this plane." Also, considering precog is a crapshoot, relying on it for defensive purposes is going to end poorly. There's a reason Agneyastra wanted to hire some magicians from Magnostadt.

EDIT: Seriously mate, you've been incredibly rude lately. Please stop. >_<

EDIT 2: At any rate, I'll go work on the next update. Lockin' der votin'.

EDIT 3: Next update will be delayed a wee bit; it's been brought to my attention that King Candidates and Magi were never actually explained since Agneyastra learned what they are. Exposition time!

 

[Nixeu]

I think that we do have a good bit of information on djinn in particular. We've taken two of them already, and Neph wasn't particularly concerned about an outright backstab attempt from a convenient nearby teacher. We could have an issue if djinn vary widely in power levels and we've been consistently encountering low-power djinn, but even taking that into account I think that our confidence bounds are tightening relatively quickly.

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Djinn are powers, in form, vary wildly. Some are basic (and often high power), some are technical. Technical ones can be tricky to rate. How powerful is being able to create new life, and even shape it to your design? Or make portals? Or heal? Well, it depends. Do you have enough time to create an army of monsters? Are you trying to infiltrate a city? Did your lung just get punctured? Power is situational, is what I'm getting at.

I will note that wide-area attacks are essentially useless against us; we have enough mobility to fly above inclement weather and shields that can tank essentially any terrestrial energetic event. About the only things I can think of that'd give us trouble would be cave collapses or extreme proximity to VEI-6+ volcanic eruptions, and even then only if we're close enough to get hit by large ejecta.

These actually sound like strategic options more than tactical options, a way for King Candidate to deal with armies and cities.

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Honestly, KCs are basically strategic weapons by default. There aren't enough of them to toss around like party-favors. And it's a very rough description of the amount of power involved, I believe. The effects vary wildly, from smashing a uniform crater into a large chunk of land with raw physical force, to the classic "really hot flames that don't go out until the guy who made them says so", to conjuring a tsunami...inland. Basically sucks up local water and makes a tidal wave able to drown a city with it.

The original idea, I think, was that they'd mimic natural disasters in some form. But a lot of powers don't extend into that neatly. Plus, making them distinguishable is tricky, if there's element overlap.

I do actually think that Extreme Magic isn't something we need to really worry about. It's certainly something that we need to dodge as well as shielding and counterspelling and disrupting-the-concentration-of, but those are things we can do and will be prepared to do - MGLN magic has casting times and we have certainly trained to notice and disrupt the casting of big spells.

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I think that a difference in meaning may be part of what's rubbing people the wrong way, V. "Not something we need to worry about" doesn't usually mean "we need to work to counter it
if it happens". It tends to mean "pay it no mind, it's irrelevant". Even if, on the intellectual level, I know you're not using it that way, that's still how you come across on the emotional level.

In a related issue, I think you and I (at least) are defining "winning" and "losing" fights differently. Or, rather, my concern is not as much on losing the fight, it's what we may lose in the fight, if that makes sense. I don't see a victory as a victory if one of Jade's friends gets hurt, or if they end up having to lose some of who they are to win. That's how I'm considering it.

 

[Torgamous]

to the classic "really hot flames that don't go out until the guy who made them says so",

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I wonder how those taste.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder how those taste.

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DO NOT BOOP THAT MERRY SUICIDE BOMBER.

 

[fictionfan]

-[x] What are the standard "divine abilities"?

:Boy, is that a big question. The creation of avatars like me is the biggest one; typically, they pick out a dead human follower and grant them either a portion of, or access to, some of their own power. Infusing existing extraplanars or making new beings from scratch is more unusual, but not entirely unheard of.:

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I think that giving Nanoha our soulfire is avatar creation.

 

[Vebyast]

I think that a difference in meaning may be part of what's rubbing people the wrong way, V. "Not something we need to worry about" doesn't usually mean "we need to work to counter it
if it happens". It tends to mean "pay it no mind, it's irrelevant". Even if, on the intellectual level, I know you're not using it that way, that's still how you come across on the emotional level.

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I've been having a pretty bad week. Sorry. :/

To be precise: "Not something we need to worry about" is literal. We don't need to worry about it, it's not something that I think could prevent us from accomplishing our objectives, no more and no less. If I think that we can ignore something completely I think that I say that we can ignore it, if I think that something is irrelevant I think that I say that it's irrelevant. "Not worried about" is the level of concern for things that go in the "business as usual" section of a design document or grant proposal rather than the "risks" or "now here's the clever part" sections. If I say that I'm worried about a problem, it means that I think we cannot safely address it, that it presents a risk that might prevent us from accomplishing our objectives. I do not say that I'm worried about things that we can handle safely; if we can already deal with a problem then our attention is best focused elsewhere.

In a related issue, I think you and I (at least) are defining "winning" and "losing" fights differently. Or, rather, my concern is not as much on losing the fight, it's what we may lose in the fight, if that makes sense. I don't see a victory as a victory if one of Jade's friends gets hurt, or if they end up having to lose some of who they are to win. That's how I'm considering it.

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...Maybe? I don't know if we're going to make it through Magi without being forced to kill at least some people. It's nowhere near as generally shitty as Thedas and its mooks are more able to surrender than XCOM's, but it has enough slavers, tyrants, and idiots that I think that at least some of them will fight to the death no matter how persuasive we are.

As for our state, well, I think that all we have to do there is not piss off literally the entire plane. Even then I think we'd probably get through without any major issues, it'd just take us a while to grind through our opposition.

 

[Nixeu]

I wonder how those taste.

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I know, right? I think they're white? Can't recall. Anyway, they could be vanilla, which would be cool, if it's the good kind. Can't think of much else tasty in that color.

Side note, all thre of the main protagonists have the power to use, or are best with, fire/heat magic. Assuming they're around, we should be able to either kick their butts, or work well with them in battle. And no, none of them get the albino Amaterasu shiny special flames.

I've been having a pretty bad week. Sorry. :/

To be precise: "Not something we need to worry about" is literal. We don't need to worry about it, it's not something that I think could prevent us from accomplishing our objectives, no more and no less. If I think that we can ignore something completely I think that I say that we can ignore it, if I think that something is irrelevant I think that I say that it's irrelevant. "Not worried about" is the level of concern for things that go in the "business as usual" section of a design document or grant proposal rather than the "risks" or "now here's the clever part" sections.

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Ah. Can't say I feel entirely comfortable saying that without knowing the list of opponents a bit better. More from a Doyalist perspective than anything. Underestimating Alivaril in the GM seat hasn't worked out too well for me, historically.

There's a reason we stayed the hell away from the stasis bubbled deer in the wizard's tower. It was, in fact, basically the Killer Bunny. He also hid the exit to a maze you teleport into in the starting room. Then there was that ancient psionic vampire who looked like a child one the party had to babysit in one of his other games I wasn't involved in. My point is, I'm kinda conditioned not to take things at their surface level appearences, especially in the threat-radar sense.

...Maybe? I don't know if we're going to make it through Magi without being forced to kill at least some people. It's nowhere near as generally shitty as Thedas and its mooks are more able to surrender than XCOM's, but it has enough slavers, tyrants, and idiots that I think that at least some of them will fight to the death no matter how persuasive we are.

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My concern is more about ending up having to fight and kill someone we might otherwise find a perfectly good person, who feels bound by some oath and their sense of honor, or a love for the home country they still find far from perfect, or their own familial or friend bonds, to fight us with their life on the line. It's entirely possible. People tend to have multiple, sometimes conflicting, preferences and drIves. Or hell, they might just be misinformed as to the reason for the conflict. Propaganda and all that.

Those kinds of fights, especially if our foe seems to be divided and conflicted, would be rough as hell on Jade. Regardless of how the thread as a whole might feel about those people, or how necessary dealing with them might be to improving things, or whatever, Jade wouldn't take that well, I don't think.

 

[fictionfan]

I hope that Nanoha has managed to figure out improvements on making Agni non-lethal spells.

 

[Vebyast]

Underestimating Alivaril in the GM seat hasn't worked out too well for me, historically.

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If Alivaril was out to kill us I'd be worried about it.

My concern is more about ending up having to fight and kill someone we might otherwise find a perfectly good person, who feels bound by some oath and their sense of honor, or a love for the home country they still find far from perfect, or their own familial or friend bonds, to fight us with their life on the line. It's entirely possible. People tend to have multiple, sometimes conflicting, preferences and drIves. Or hell, they might just be misinformed as to the reason for the conflict. Propaganda and all that.

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I don't know what you're trying to say here. People presumably exist that value their loyalty enough that they will never surrender or accept imprisonment. We value the lives of the slaves they keep over their lives. Either they die or we unleash Sidhe on them. That's the case whether they're a King Candidate or a farmer with a damned pitchfork. What is your point? How does it relate to how dangerous a King Candidate is in a fight? How does it relate to our definition of "victory"? Those people are already dead men walking and they're dead no matter how much of a martial threat they pose. We're just going to have to deal with it.

 

[fictionfan]

I think that we can avoid killing people in general. King candiates become normal people if we take away their metal vessel. A farmer with a pitch fork we can just leave simple distance stops him from being a threat.

Linker core magic can do amazing non-lethal take downs. Still hoping Nanoha makes it better.

Edit: For this uplift project I don't think that we care about punishment just making things better.

 

[Nachtigall]

People presumably exist that value their loyalty enough that they will never surrender or accept imprisonment. We value the lives of the slaves they keep over their lives. Either they die or we unleash Sidhe on them.

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Or, you know, we could imprison them.

We just diverge when it comes to accessing the part labeled 'memories related to precog.' I'm you plus, like, maybe a year of memories from who knows how many timelines.

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How literal is that? Neph clearly has a divergent personality. Are people just the sum of their experiences?

If so, we might be able to use Blue memory banks to remove the underlying memories of conditioning, undeserved loyalty, stockholm syndrome, hostility, madness, abuse, ...

Memory Banks [Rank 4]:
You strongly suspect this spell could be twisted to steal and store memories if you learn how.

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And since the memories would be altogether missing, a mind purge or similar can't restore them.

---

Completely unrelated:

Does Mitra have her own hammerspace or multiple forms? If so, what forms did Nanoha choose?

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Definitely no to the first forever since that's an Agneyastra-specific (or at least Al-Hazard tetratech) function, no to the second for now.

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affected spells tend to be approximately 45% more effective while Agneyastra is in a sympathetic form.

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Since bracelet form is the only one Mitra has; are there any spells that get a bonus in it?
Otherwise, Nanoha's attacks would be about 1​/3​ less effective compared to using Raising Heart...

Oh, and a disarm spell would be incredible potent against most device users. For example, Fate and most of the Numbers rely on their weapons.
MGLN, XCOM, Earthland, and Thedas don't seem to have such a spell, which leaves Magi and Velgarth...
@Nixeu: Since you know both these worlds, do you by chance know of such a spell?

 

[Nixeu]

If Alivaril was out to kill us I'd be worried about it.

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He wasn't out to kill us back then, either. Doesn't mean it was a cake-walk. He's a simulationist. If we make bad moves, it's not his fault.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. People presumably exist that value their loyalty enough that they will never surrender or accept imprisonment. We value the lives of the slaves they keep over their lives. Either they die or we unleash Sidhe on them. That's the case whether they're a King Candidate or a farmer with a damned pitchfork. What is your point? How does it relate to how dangerous a King Candidate is in a fight? How does it relate to our definition of "victory"? Those people are already dead men walking and they're dead no matter how much of a martial threat they pose. We're just going to have to deal with it.

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What I'm saying is that Jade doesn't necessarily share your view of things. More to the point, that doesn't stop people IRL from losing sleep over having killed someone, barring sociopaths. Killing people is not an easy thing, nor should it be. Feeling forced to kill someone who has a legitimate reason to fight you that you sympathize with is even harder. If we make enemies of the world, we'll be creating people with those reasons.

Edit: And possibly be playing into the Big Bad's hands, because Al-Thaman tended to capitalize on that.

I think that we can avoid killing people in general. King candiates become normal people if we take away their metal vessel. A farmer with a pitch fork we can just leave simple distance stops him from being a threat.

Linker core magic can do amazing non-lethal take downs. Still hoping Nanoha makes it better.

Edit: For this uplift project I don't think that we care about punishment just making things better.

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Am unsure of the efficacy of that, though I suppose it worked in Sinbad. The issue is that they can simply move the Djinn to a new vessel, if given a similar enough metal object.

Oh, and a disarm spell would be incredible potent against most device users. For example, Fate and most of the Numbers rely on their weapons.
MGLN, XCOM, Earthland, and Thedas don't seem to have such a spell, which leaves Magi and Velgarth...
@Nixeu: Since you know both these worlds, do you by chance know of such a spell?

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Not really. Well, not specifically. I suppose magic that is essentially Telekinesis could do that. Magi has some of that, as does XCOM, albeit soul magic.

Edit: Would object decomposition spells work? Also, Earthland has everything. We just have to find it.

 

[Nachtigall]

Would object decomposition spells work?

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Against regular weapons, sure, but intelligent devices like Bardiche are sentient. Still, they might be pretty useful against the Numbers.
You're right that I forgot e.g. Shatter. What specific spell did you have in mind?

 

[fictionfan]

We really need to get started on practicing our mental defenses with Sidhe. I don't think that Sidhe will start it if we don't she knows how uncomfortable we are with it.

 

[Nixeu]

Against regular weapons, sure, but intelligent devices like Bardiche are sentient. Still, they might be pretty useful against the Numbers.
You're right that I forgot e.g. Shatter. What specific spell did you have in mind?

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There are some complex atomic-level chemical alteration spells on Magi, IIRC. Decomposition is a logical extension of that. Plus, there is a very newly introduced Djinn able to decompose metal, though I'd say the odds of that being in this AU are pretty low. And it also widens the range of spells we could search for on Earthland.

Also, as I've said, I can't actually predict what's on this plane with 100% accuracy. Certainly, the counter spells seem like they're new. So I could quite easily see Black or Red decomposition spells on Magi.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

Since bracelet form is the only one Mitra has

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Wait, what? My headcanon has been completely wrong this entire time if so. I read that WoG as "Mitra has only a single combat form, instead of multiple like Agneyastra" — it's such a basic function of intelligent devices that it didn't even occur to me Mitra might have been created without the capacity to set one.

@Alivaril, clarification?

Oh, and a disarm spell would be incredible potent against most device users.

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Would object decomposition spells work? Also, Earthland has everything. We just have to find it.

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Mmm, better to stick with learning sleep spells, methinks. Equally if not more effective, and we already have good reason to believe sleep spells exist.

Not wise to split Jade's focus too much; 3 weeks is not a lot of time to prepare.

 

[fictionfan]

I just realized that when slaves pray to Jade for freedom she can come over and say "Let my people Go!". We can likely manage it without any plagues as well.

Edit: And bring them to the promised Land in way less then 40 years.

 

[Nachtigall]

Mmm, better to stick with learning sleep spells, methinks. Equally if not more effective, and we already have good reason to believe sleep spells exist.

Not wise to split Jade's focus too much; 3 weeks is not a lot of time to prepare.

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Both Sleep and Shatter are listed as priority 2 experiments. Sleep doesn't work against AMF drones and may not work properly on cyborgs, which is why we need a plan B.

Experiments and practice have 18 priority 1+2 items each, but some are Sidhe-only and some practice goals may be obsolete (we'll have to ask Agneyastra, see questions tab).
In total, that should leave Jade with about 20 projects for 3 weeks, which should be barely doable.

We can cut that further down after a Q&A session with Agneyastra. For now, we simply don't know enough to refine the training plan further.

 

[fictionfan]

Sleep doesn't work against AMF drones

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You know what does work against AMF drones? Fire, I doubt that their AM works against Red Mana. When it comes to destroying stuff red Mana and detonate is likely to be king.

The reason cybrogs are a problem is that we are avoiding killing them.

 

[Torgamous]

The reason cybrogs are a problem is that we are avoiding killing them.

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They're avoiding killing us, too. The reason cyborgs are a problem is that they're combat-specialized transhumans from a tech base within shouting distance of ours.