Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)

[Nachtigall]

I think the Red might be keeping the White from setting?

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New experiment!

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Since nobody objected, I added White-Red synergy as a priority 4 experiment and noted the potential usefulness for Agneyastra reverse-engineering Ethereal Vessel.
This might actually help Jade with all White constructs - keep them malleable with a bit of Red, then remove it and let them solidify.

I wonder what happens if we infuse a solid White construct with Red afterwards?

---

Agneyastra would like to recommend immediate conversion of one of the two high-energy signatures into Linker Core materials and/or Lacrima. One of them appears to be this world's moon, while the other is artificial in nature.

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[x] Eat the moon

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Considering what we later learned about the moon-goddess Menodora, we really dodged a bullet there...

Menodora isn't a very nice person; she's known to conspire with demons and actively lend her power to them on nights of the full moon. She's even driven many humans insane simply for her own personal amusement.

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"And what about Meno?"
"To start off, don't abbreviate her name. She has been known to torture humans who do and even plot the downfall of other gods. Secondly, she is allegedly very powerful, and yes, what Calypso claims about her is true.

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---

While looking at our list of bonded lands, I just noticed

• Jade gets B/W + W + B each day but barely uses it. We should include a White or Black spell in her next training plan. Ethereal Vessel, Reinforce, and mana storage constructs come to mind.
• Uminari is currently frozen and we need the landbond as a planeswalk target. Both could be a problem if we want to sacrifice its mana for Nanoha's ascension. Does anybody mind if I include a question on that matter in our list?

---

By default, when the friend/foe recognition software for a Predator fails, it resorts to simply designating all living beings as hostile.

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If we want to prevent future Lost Logia incidents, we might want to tweak that for our Remnant & Magi facilities...
Yes, we're immortal, but none of the destroyed civilizations on MGLN planned to cease to exist. Making sure our droids don't go berserk without maintenance is a reasonable precaution.
Oh, and we need to disable the 'shrouded in flame' recognition, other planes have non-Agni Red mages who can do that as well.

---

The four basic types of Dust (fire, water, lightning, wind) and their known derivatives (ice, steam, gravity, earth) can all be explained with Red and Blue mana alone. Did we see any Dust that contains Green or White mana?

It's worth mentioning that Avatar's bending arts only use Red and Blue effects, so there'd be precedence for such a limitation:

control over fire/lightning, air, water/ice, and nonliving earth

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---

Agneyastra never outright confirmed that dust is crystallized mana. However, when Jade told Nanoha about Dust, Agneyastra didn't contradict her, despite being the next person to talk:

'Dust,' which basically seems to be crystallized mana, so giving them more of that seems like a good start."
"Originally, I proposed [...]

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That at least indicates we're right. As our mana sense currently doesn't really distinguish between different sources, we should probably try to fix that by careful observation of the different types of magic.

Proposed experiment:

Target skill: Mana Sense
Examine: explosive lacrima, fire dust, Heirloom Ruby, lyrium
Manipulate energy, observe with mana sense, compare and distinguish sources
​

Objections?

 

[Filraen]

Something to fill the void around here, a bit that has been bothering me for a bit, from the last time Jade took a look at Thedas:

Thedas (Dragon Age)​

Don't think about them, don't think about those they're fighting, don't think—

Child, just look away already! No war or guilt for you. The last thing you need is more trauma or angst.
​

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Is it just me or the tone used by the red voice here doesn't sound like Neph? Maybe it's the usage of "child" that makes me feel like the speaker considers herself considerably older than Jade (Neph adresses Jade much more informally and isn't that much older, for certain values of "older")

 

[Nachtigall]

Well, there's a reason the initial theory about Redgia was a remnant of Sylvester or Surya. There's also a second comment that doesn't quite match Neph:

My Agni Heir Can't Be This Cute~

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Neph did mention a second memory fragment, and they might have the same formatting:

I'm pretty sure there's someone else in here, too, and I don't know who or what.

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Admittedly I rather thought it'd be our Witch, but ancestral memories would explain those two statements.

---

@Alivaril, thought I'd keep the open questions in one place...

Any decision on the timezone issue (1, 2)? Whatever is the least work for you works. You could just roll dice... e.g.
Eastern Empire = Vale + 4h + 1d6 h
Magnostadt = Eastern Empire - 1d3h

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PAUSE/HALT, crystal lanterns, Blue-tinged are the wrong color: Blue is #3366ff and White is #ffff00.
Might want to fix that when you're back at your PC.

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We looted 3 crates of nonfunctional phase ammunition and gave 2 to Shiva as scrap.
Does Agneyastra have the blueprints for new phase rounds? Did we keep the remaining crate of old ammo so that we have something to examine?

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[Known Dust types] can all be explained with Red and Blue mana alone. Did we see any Dust that contains Green or White mana?

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Isolation Barriers drag anyone with an active Linker Core into what could be best described as an 'echo' of the surrounding area

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@Alivaril, LC magic requires knowledge of the underlying maths and principles. Based on that, Jade should know to what it applies, right?

• How do Isolation Barriers interact with mana-based mages or artifacts?
• What would an Isolation Barrier around Magnostadt do?

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[Filraen]

Neph did mention a second memory fragment, and they might have the same formatting:
Admittedly I rather thought it'd be our Witch, but ancestral memories would explain those two statements.

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There's nothing really preventing both to be true: we already have two "passengers" in our soul, why not three? /shrug

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Improved Learning Based Upon Personal Experience & Observation, Magic-Specific: Exactly what it sounds like. Book learning, while not harder than it was prior to your wish, is now horribly inefficient for you; it's much easier for you to learn by practice and personal experience.

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Hey, does the wording of our wish also apply to sleight-of-hand tricks and the likes of IRL magic? That could be useful.

 

[Filraen]

Hey, does the wording of our wish also apply to sleight-of-hand tricks and the likes of IRL magic? That could be useful.

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Going by intent I'm guessing not notmally, as it'd be a mundane subject (and when Jade made her Wish she already knew what Real Magic was like, if only a little). However, I recall Jade using Enhanche Learning on mundane subjects, although it wasn't as afficient as when using on real magic. And this isn't getting into learning improvements granted be the artifficial vessel (enhanched dexterity and thinking in general).

 

[Nachtigall]

Our passive trait "Improved Learning [...]" only works on actual magic, the active MG ability "Enhance Learning" allows Jade to extend a lesser version of the effect to mundane skills and knowledge.
We voted not to keep Enhance Learning active all the time because it includes absorbing lies and opinions, making us more suggestible.

---

When we eventually establish an afterlife for our worshippers and are off-plane, how do we handle souls? They can't cross the Blind Eternities to reach us. Do we leave part of our essence behind?


Currently, the Book of Darkness is portrayed as an evil planet-killer Unison device on par with Agneyastra. Jade doesn't know that the Tome of the Night Sky may be redeemable, and it might not actually be the case in Ignition.
Is anyone against asking Neph about the BoD, and should Jade ask before or after the JS incident?

"Does the Book of Darkness have abilities beyond linker core magic? What's the best/worst outcome I can expect? Does proximity risk its activation when visiting Hayate?"​

---

While re-reading the story, I noticed three details that might be relevant for the latest chapters:

Siofra's attendant souls are nowhere to be seen.

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Siofra's souls have the new enchantment handled, stay out of their way for a bit.

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Suspicious. Since Neph already lied to us w.r.t. dating Nanoha, she might have just said that to get Jade to stop worrying.

"It would be easier for us to deal with the emotional aftereffects of an abrupt incident. I would rather start with one of those."
"Why?"
"It would be easier for us to deal with."
"That's not much of an answer."
"Good."

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"Other times, such as why an abrupt incident would be better, would lead to our own actions being less effective when we need to comfort you."

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"What was that, anyway? I feel a lot better now and I'm honestly not sure why."
"One of the perks of having an artificial body. Sufficiently massive shocks can distract normal humans until their next sleep cycle or for even longer; a temporary 'reboot' is vastly preferable, both for speed and long-term impact."

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It seems that was the method to 'deal' with abrupt trauma - just flush it out. If this is how our AIs plan to deal with future emotional outbursts, it isn't healthy.
To clarify, I have nothing against using it when Jade is catatonic, but the first quote indicates a far broader scope where they might use a reboot.

We're better now; why should we have to act like our advantages don't exist?
[...]
I could overthrow any Earth government I wanted, couldn't I? ...Yes, yes I could. Mom could easily fabricate and 'leak' some pretty damning information whenever she felt like it, in a way no human on Earth could do without a wish or magic.

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The stars are really rather distracting and you're hoping there's a way to duplicate the effect. They are somewhat inhuman, but isn't that a good thing? The more stuff you have to demonstrate your differences from normal mortals, the better.

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This personality shift since we arrived on Magi is extremely concerning. I can think of three potential sources:

1. Unlike Sigurd stated, divinity and worship influence us on Magi
2. Agneyastra adjusting our brain during the reboot
3. We forgot deactivating Enhance Learning for opinionated knowledge

The main reason I consider 1. is a previous QM note:

The overall result of this vote (princess/goddess) [...] is arguably the most important vote you'll make until the Jewel Seed disasters begin.

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@Alivaril: Does Jade still restrict her use of Enhance Learning to learning skills and factual knowledge?

 

[Alivaril]

@Alivaril: Does Jade still restrict her use of Enhance Learning to learning skills and factual knowledge?

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Yes.

Hey, does the wording of our wish also apply to sleight-of-hand tricks and the likes of IRL magic? That could be useful.

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No.

There's nothing really preventing both to be true: we already have two "passengers" in our soul, why not three? /shrug

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Maybe. ( )

 

[Sapient_Ham]

Suspicious. Since Neph already lied to us w.r.t. dating Nanoha, she might have just said that to get Jade to stop worrying.

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There's not much to gained by doubting Neph like this. Generally, when the BS-tier precog tells you not to worry about it, you should take it at face value, unless you have a very good reason not to.

This personality shift since we arrived on Magi is extremely concerning. I can think of three potential sources:

1. Unlike Sigurd stated, divinity and worship influence us on Magi
2. Agneyastra adjusting our brain during the reboot
3. We forgot deactivating Enhance Learning for opinionated knowledge

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Or, you know, Jade is just feeling more confident in herself. No need to jump straight to magical brainwashing.

Is it just me or the tone used by the red voice here doesn't sound like Neph? Maybe it's the usage of "child" that makes me feel like the speaker considers herself considerably older than Jade (Neph adresses Jade much more informally and isn't that much older, for certain values of "older")

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Yeah, I've noticed the tone difference, too.

Throwing a wild-ass guess out there, I'd speculate if Neph received all the precog, then this third personality may have received all the postcog. Which, when applied to a Planeswalker Spark that may or may not contain the ancestral memory of all the Agni it's directly descended from... might mean this third personality is basically an Oldwalker.

Again though, completely wild speculation.

 

[curiosity]

Or, you know, Jade is just feeling more confident in herself. No need to jump straight to magical brainwashing.

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Going out of your way to be different (second quote) is a sign of insecurity, not confidence.

 

[Nachtigall]

Since the most harmless explanation (Enhance Learning) is out...

Channel Blue and ask why Jade's self-image is drifting from "I'm better than others" towards "I'm above mere mortals"? A more analytical view might help to identify the reason.

Objections to adding it to our list of IC questions?

Or, you know, Jade is just feeling more confident in herself. No need to jump straight to magical brainwashing.

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Just yesterday, she was uncomfortable with that aspect of considering herself a goddess, and now she changed? Doubtful. Besides, as @curiosity said, it's not the same as confidence.

---

There's not much to gained by doubting Neph like this. Generally, when the BS-tier precog tells you not to worry about it, you should take it at face value, unless you have a very good reason not to.

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I don't doubt Neph's intentions. As I said, if she lied, it was probably to stop us from worrying over something we can't change anytime soon. However, for us voters this might mean we can't consider Siofra's curse as handled.

---

Oh, and Marina left us with a book of instructions on what to learn after our mind is shielded properly. Should we add it as

• priority 2 (try learning before JS incident)
• priority 3 (probably between the JS incident and Thedas)
• priority 4 (later)

Of course, that's just the initial placement and can change later. Personally, I'd suggest p2 since Marina's lessons were quite valuable for our understanding of mana.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

Going out of your way to be different (second quote) is a sign of insecurity, not confidence.

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It's less going out of your way to be different, and more labeling yourself as something clearly apart. Princesses don't need to care about what the rabble think, and neither do goddesses.

This is nothing new; Jade has been using this strategy to deal with her people phobias ever since she started accepting her role as a princess. It's been enormously successful, too.

Since the most harmless explanation (Enhance Learning) is out...

Channel Blue and ask why Jade's self-image is drifting from "I'm better than others" towards "I'm above mere mortals"? A more analytical view might help to identify the reason.

Objections to adding it to our list of IC questions?

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I strongly object on the grounds it is pointlessly paranoid, yes. Jade's change in self-image is normal.

If I were Jade's shoes, I'd probably be having similar mildly megalomaniac thoughts every now and then. When you have objective evidence you are literally divine, have already dramatically altered the status quo of at least one planet, and will likely end up ruling an entire plane or two... a thought like "I am above mortals" is not delusion, but a simple statement of fact.

And remember, for all her tremendous power, Jade is still a teenager. It would be more surprising if her newfound power didn't go to her head a little.

Now, if Jade later starts acting like Indira, then we should worry. But a mere idle thought or two is not a behavioral change worth fussing about.

 

[fictionfan]

Also we are likely going to need worship if we want to create an afterlife. Which we want as a safety net for our friends.

 

[Alivaril]

The more stuff you have to demonstrate your differences from normal mortals, the better.

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Incidentally, Jade doesn't think she meant the above in the sense of "I'm better than them" so much as "I don't want people to doubt me; therefore, if I have more stuff to prove I'm not a normal mortal, that's a good thing."

 

[Filraen]

Yeah, I've noticed the tone difference, too.

Throwing a wild-ass guess out there, I'd speculate if Neph received all the precog, then this third personality may have received all the postcog. Which, when applied to a Planeswalker Spark that may or may not contain the ancestral memory of all the Agni it's directly descended from... might mean this third personality is basically an Oldwalker.

Again though, completely wild speculation.

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When has Jade shown postcognition? The closest I remember was the dream about Suryastra, but that wasn't conclusive to have happened in the past; it coukd be a record of Suryastra played in the future.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

When has Jade shown postcognition? The closest I remember was the dream about Suryastra, but that wasn't conclusive to have happened in the past; it coukd be a record of Suryastra played in the future.

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She hasn't, but it wouldn't be surprising if she starts to, given how Siofra was capable of it.

Basically, I'm thinking Neph might be as powerful as she is because Siofra's origin is enhancing Jade's natural precognitive talents. But Siofra was capable of very powerful postcog too, yet Jade's displayed no new abilities in that direction. So the question becomes: is postcognition something which must be trained, or did this hypothetical third personality receive the talent instead?

It'd make for a nice bit of thematic symmetry, would it not? A separate aspect for the past, present, and future.

 

[Nachtigall]

I don't want people to doubt me; therefore, if I have more stuff to prove I'm not a normal mortal, that's a good thing.

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Good to know, even if I don't agree with Jade's line of thought. If she wants to go that route, Fire Vessel is both more impressive and actually useful.
Still, thanks to that clarification, chapter 33.8 is an isolated incident again. I moved to question to 'Rejected'.

Also we are likely going to need worship if we want to create an afterlife. Which we want as a safety net for our friends.

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This wasn't about worship, though. Jade's self-image seemed to have shifted towards minor megalomania since yesterday morning, which would have been concerning.

a mere idle thought or two is not a behavioral change worth fussing about.

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Which is why I didn't worry until it seemed to become recurring.

I like being a princess, of having a good reason to show off and concrete proof I'm special. If [...] forming a kingdom is going to help the people who live there? It doesn't clash

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Jade's stance is that if she uses her power to help others and they appreciate it enough to follow her, said worship is deserved. She used "optional rent" as a metaphor for that.

Once in a while, Jade used the goddess excuse to push herself into actions she was uncomfortable with, like scanning Sidhe's soul or dancing with strangers on festival.

My issue was when it seemed that over a single day, 'special' changed to 'above' and her desire to be 'better' twisted to 'different' and 'inhuman'.

Again, the last WoG laid my worries to rest.

---

is postcognition something which must be trained, or did this hypothetical third personality receive the talent instead?

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Neph was around before we got Siofra's Origin:

You're a Red mage; what were you expecting?

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Red mages shouldn't be made to sit still for too long, but that's exactly what Agneyastra has you do.

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She will.
[...]
Because she will. She wants what you have.

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While it's not impossible, I doubt that the Ethernano organ influenced our soul enough to form a new personality. And yes, Jade and Neph only "use the same soul-bits" for most of their thinking.

 

[Filraen]

She hasn't, but it wouldn't be surprising if she starts to, given how Siofra was capable of it.

Basically, I'm thinking Neph might be as powerful as she is because Siofra's origin is enhancing Jade's natural precognitive talents. But Siofra was capable of very powerful postcog too, yet Jade's displayed no new abilities in that direction. So the question becomes: is postcognition something which must be trained, or did this hypothetical third personality receive the talent instead?

It'd make for a nice bit of thematic symmetry, would it not? A separate aspect for the past, present, and future.

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As a possible development it makes sense and it's reasonable. But please don't treat it as something confirmed when we don't really know.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

As a possible development it makes sense and it's reasonable. But please don't treat it as something confirmed when we don't really know.

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I've cautioned this is line of thought is highly speculative, so please don't accuse me of jumping to conclusions. It's a theory, and nothing more.

 

[Nachtigall]

@Alivaril: At our current rank, a dimensional transfer to "close planets [...] is extremely inaccurate", but what if we stay on the same planet?

If the spread isn't too bad (or we can quickly improve enough), we wouldn't always need the S-51 Stalker for exploration:
Planeswalk, briefly assess danger, get the coordinates from Agneyastra, planeswalk back to our friends, dimensional transfer with them.
We're likely to end up somewhere interesting and it doubles as magic practice.

---

Assuming the current Blight is the 5th​ (DA:O canon timeline) and we visit Ferelden... we don't really have a reason to disbelieve Loghain's version about Ostagar, do we?

Options include:

• Ignore local squabbles, avoid both groups.
  
• Grey Wardens often act morally grey, it's no surprise one went too far. If we meet them, deal with them as threats.
  
• Non-lethally disable the Warden's party, then interrogate them with the Judgement Cube.

Apart from mages, templars, and archers, there's little they could achieve against an aerial assault, after all...

---

A few new experiments for our to-do list. I proposed two of them before, but as there was no reaction (neither discussion nor objection) I listed them as well.

Experiments:

Who: Jade
Priority: ? (suggested: 2)
Skill: Velgarth style mana magic
Task: Study Marina's instruction on "various little spells and tricks"
Requirements: Jade and Sidhe able to shield minds from "major surprise attacks"

Who: Jade, Sidhe, Nanoha
Priority: 3
Skill: Thought Projection
Task: 1. read tome on thought projection, 2. basic technique, 3. solid clone with half our Ethernano, 4. (cross-planar) projection through summoning bond
Notes: group adventures without losing PW escape option, Jellal's twin possible in Ignition?

Who: Jade
Priority: 4
Skill: White-Red Synergy
Task: Observation: "Red might [keep] White from setting" - experiments: adjustable shields, breathing Ethereal Vessel
Notes: Quote from chapter 35.0

Who: Jade
Priority: 4
Skill: Mana Sense
Task: Examine: explosive lacrima, fire dust, Heirloom Ruby, (lyrium) - Manipulate energy, observe with mana sense, compare and distinguish sources
Requirements: lyrium (optional)

Who: Jade
Priority: 4
Skill: Quicken
Task: more power "might give neat perks", additional effects besides reduced summoning sickness?

Who: Jade
Priority: 4
Skill: Call Ally
Task: Keep connection open to summon another ally from the same place at reduced cost? Start with copies of Scrya & Sachiko while the originals are next to each other
Notes: quantity discount logical within summon mechanics, rough MTG equivalent exists (Apex of Power)

Who: Jade
Priority: 5
Skill: Lich, ?
Task: Observe MG transformation and soul gem to ring transformation. hammerspace? mapping between soul gem forms?
Notes: where are items (clothes, grief seeds, earrings) stored when transforming?

Who: Jade
Priority: 7
Skill: White Purge, Divinity
Task: Try to adapt the Chantry ritual for cleansing the Black City to Remnant's Black Enchantment
Requirements: Examine Chantry ritual (Val Royeaux?)​

Practice:

Who: Jade
Priority: 4
Skill: Recolor Mana
Objective: 50% efficiency
Notes: Mostly train Red -> Colorless, combine with experiments/practice that need colorless mana​

 

[Alivaril]

@Alivaril: At our current rank, a dimensional transfer to "close planets [...] is extremely inaccurate", but what if we stay on the same planet?

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You're not even sure the spell would function properly at that point. Even if you can get it working, you expect the spread will be genuinely awful until you get much, much better at it. There has to be a reason ships need a whole ton of fancy hardware and a team of mages just to get transfers to work properly and accurately, right?

 

[fictionfan]

You're not even sure the spell would function properly at that point. Even if you can get it working, you expect the spread will be genuinely awful until you get much, much better at it. There has to be a reason ships need a whole ton of fancy hardware and a team of mages just to get transfers to work properly and accurately, right?

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Because they don't have a Goddess on their side?

 

[Nachtigall]

You're not even sure the spell would function properly at that point. Even if you can get it working, you expect the spread will be genuinely awful until you get much, much better at it. There has to be a reason ships need a whole ton of fancy hardware and a team of mages just to get transfers to work properly and accurately, right?

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I had assumed most of that effort was for long-range transfers. Oh well.
Would a planetary beacon help? Could Agneyastra (fancy hardware!) do it? What method would she use for planetary teleportation?

 

[fictionfan]

I expect that learning the blue version of the spell would work better.

 

[Nachtigall]

I expect that learning the blue version of the spell would work better.

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Probably, but as we'd have to develop Dimensional Hop basically from scratch, I hope Agneyastra has another solution.

---

heading inside your mind and showing you how to do it yourself.

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If we learn the 'project fake mind' mental defense from Sidhe, we could use that as a buffer where Sigurd can teach us without direct access to our mind.

Actually, what happens if we ground the strongest non-Red part of our soul? Sigurd mentioned that godlings are less restricted in their options. Would it help with setting up different shields?

---

Since we learned a lot about Red mana from Agneyastra, and the "guest user" limitations should only apply for LC magic... While we're working on Blue or Ethernano, can Agneyastra tutor Nanoha on Red? Not exclusively, we'd still help, but Agneyastra is probably still better than Jade when it comes to e.g. Red constructs.
Again, if nobody objects, I'll add it to the IC questions list.

---

If we don't want to reveal our tech level on Thedas, maybe we could get a DA dragon or griffon mount? Resurrecting the latter from bone samples should be doable (assuming they already went extinct in the 4th​ Blight), and if we need more biological data we can scan a Velgarth gryphon and extrapolate. Of course, if dragons & griffons are too hard to tame, there's the option of Sigurd shapeshifting into one:

I can shapeshift to most existing creatures about my own size, provided I've seen them in person
[...]
hooves are weird
[...]
Something with four legs. More is too hard to keep track of

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Though we still don't know how that would interact with artificial vessels...

---

While Jade is slowly getting more comfortable with the idea of worship, I think we should restrict our church to Magi (actively seek worship) and MGLN (claim existing cults, don't actively convert).

On Thedas and Velgarth, a new religion would be detrimental:

• Dwarves feel their connection to the Stone. Dalish culture is too traditional to discard their pantheon. The Qunari revere principles, not beings. Poaching from the Chantry would end with violence. Reacting to prayers to the Maker instead, as Neph suggested, establishes us as his divine agent. We don't cause religious conflict, but still get enough worship (as a saint/herald) to unlock our divine abilities.
• Velgarth's divine treaty prevents full gods from interfering with the followers of others, which is basically everyone. Godling status affords us protection while still able to act. For example, V'kandis can't fix Karse, whereas Jade could if she wanted to.

On Earthland, newly ascended deities are often assassinated by other gods. We should wait until Jade is powerful enough to commit deicide, then get divinity that way.

On Remnant, Jade presented herself as an alien princess, not as a goddess; thus her image is already established and harder to change. The artificial vessel project will take a decade until it'll see widespread use, which means we don't have much to offer unless we find a way to permanently deal with the Grimm.

On Earth-PMMM Jade will probably be revered as a savior if we introduce Aura. Since that already counts as worship, I see no reason to present Jade as a goddess instead, especially as the latter role would be a far harder sell for most people on Earth.

As worship doesn't carry over between planes, on some worlds it's just not worth the effort for a local power up. Besides, as most Elder Scrolls players know, it's far more efficient to buff crafting and create persistent boosts. Divine artifacts let us profit everywhere from our status on a single plane. Why bother with spreading the church to more planes if we don't need it?