[jk] So... when does she get the annoying robot sidekick? [/jk]
[jk] Nah, magic's just a result of being contaminated by narrativium, kind of like how eezo causes biotics. [/jk]
Harry Potter and the Skittering Spouse
- Thread starter Fencer
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Superhero
- Location
- Madness realms
That seems to be more or less what JK did.
- Location
- Painting, Peach's Castle
The way I read Dumbledore is actually rather close to how you portray him...
But one thing I've always gotten from him is loss. He has, as of the very first page of the first book, lost everything.
He lost his father, mother, sister, lover, and far too many friends and acquaintances to count. And almost every single loss can be attributed to one thing. Not all, but most.
Violence. Directly or as a consequence of.
From the World and Wizarding Wars to the violence his own family perpetrated, every single conflict seems to rip someone important away from him. And thats just what we know. Who else has been lost in front of his eyes? During WWII? From Tom's other atrocities? During his own battles against Gelert? What about other conflicts?
Ultimately, I feel that broke him. Above all else, I read one thing in his behavior. If it can in any concievable way be avoided, he doesn't want to inflict that same kind of loss upon others. And yes, this is to an extreme fault. He has seen so much blood shed, so many young lives (innocent or otherwise) cut short, that he can't bring himself to do it.
Even if many others would see people like Post-Book 6 Draco and write him off, Albus simply couldn't do the same.
What makes this worse is...as of even book 1, damn near every Witch and Wizard alive in Britain had passed through the school while he was a teacher. He likely can remember, even vaguely, when they were bright-eyed kids nervous about putting on the hat. Damn near every named person in the entire series that went to Hogwarts at all, went during his near century-long tenure.
I think that there are a few individuals he would kill, mind you...Voldemort being chief amongst them... But his heart is too wounded, his empathy too great, to be effective in combating Voldemort's forces as he was against Grindelwald.
Because almost every single one was once a student of his, and he simply can't bring himself to kill them, by order or by his hand.
But one thing I've always gotten from him is loss. He has, as of the very first page of the first book, lost everything.
He lost his father, mother, sister, lover, and far too many friends and acquaintances to count. And almost every single loss can be attributed to one thing. Not all, but most.
Violence. Directly or as a consequence of.
From the World and Wizarding Wars to the violence his own family perpetrated, every single conflict seems to rip someone important away from him. And thats just what we know. Who else has been lost in front of his eyes? During WWII? From Tom's other atrocities? During his own battles against Gelert? What about other conflicts?
Ultimately, I feel that broke him. Above all else, I read one thing in his behavior. If it can in any concievable way be avoided, he doesn't want to inflict that same kind of loss upon others. And yes, this is to an extreme fault. He has seen so much blood shed, so many young lives (innocent or otherwise) cut short, that he can't bring himself to do it.
Even if many others would see people like Post-Book 6 Draco and write him off, Albus simply couldn't do the same.
What makes this worse is...as of even book 1, damn near every Witch and Wizard alive in Britain had passed through the school while he was a teacher. He likely can remember, even vaguely, when they were bright-eyed kids nervous about putting on the hat. Damn near every named person in the entire series that went to Hogwarts at all, went during his near century-long tenure.
I think that there are a few individuals he would kill, mind you...Voldemort being chief amongst them... But his heart is too wounded, his empathy too great, to be effective in combating Voldemort's forces as he was against Grindelwald.
Because almost every single one was once a student of his, and he simply can't bring himself to kill them, by order or by his hand.
Last edited:
- Location
- Piney Woods
Because he isn't a 'character,' he is a classical deus ex machina.
That isn't an exaggeration, he fits it exactly. His entire purpose in the books is to show up, resolve the plot or set up the resolution, and give a morality lesson. That is definitionally a deus ex machina.
He becomes a character in the extended universe outside of the seven main books but within them he acts as the plot demands regardless of any logical sense. Trying to ascribe character to him now is going to fail regardless of what you do. He either needs to be given one whole cloth based on context or he needs to be put at a remove just like Rowling did because it won't work any other way.
Last edited:
Another possibility is that he is simply going senile. He is OLD and I highly doubt he gets his mental or physical health checked often. Additionally, we don't know how the delayed and extended aging of magicals affects the mental degradation that comes with said aging. Nor do we know how magic itself has an effect.
Finally, he's such an icon in the British Magical world that few even consider the idea that he is starting to miss a few steps as a possibility so no one calls him out on it. This, in turn, reinforces the mentality of "I know best" without actually forcing him to question why that is or even WHAT that is.
Basically, he's old enough that he doesn't have to make sense or be consistent (or mentally sound). He just has to be able to project the wise man air well enough that no one questions him and he has mastered that.
Finally, he's such an icon in the British Magical world that few even consider the idea that he is starting to miss a few steps as a possibility so no one calls him out on it. This, in turn, reinforces the mentality of "I know best" without actually forcing him to question why that is or even WHAT that is.
Basically, he's old enough that he doesn't have to make sense or be consistent (or mentally sound). He just has to be able to project the wise man air well enough that no one questions him and he has mastered that.
Last edited:
Lycanthromancer
The Arcane Fuzz
- Location
- USA
You sure about that? Because it seems like most magic is just words and wand waving, with some few requiring emotion.
I'd think that it's more that being able to simply ignore reality and pesky little things like consequences for your actions has a tendency to erode important parts of one's personality like self-preservation and critical thinking.
Last edited:
FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe Dumbledore just thinks Fate itself will sort everything out, and he won't have to make any hard decisions?
- Location
- Tatum, Tx
Dumbledore has numerous flaws: 1) He is powerful, and when he used the power, he found himself wanting to use it to take over the WW. As a result, he is not only reluctant to use power, but feels that Acton was wrong. Powerful people are NEVER good people. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been so corrupted by power. 2) He feels guilt over Arianna's death due to a fight between Gellert, him, and Aberforth. She died without a mark on her, but no one knows which of them fired the curse that killed her. His guilt drove Albus to search for forgiveness. As a result, he decided that if he, as strong willed yet corrupt as he was, turned to the Light, then anyone else would seek forgiveness.
Yes, these actually contradict each other. But Albus doesn't see this. 3) He spent his life learning magic any way that he could, so is certain that if he doesn't know something, no one does. 4) He believes that knowing secrets is only for the wisest, most knowledgeable, most forgiving of people, so no one else should know secrets, but he should know all of them.
So he goes "Severus has my complete trust. He tells me that he turned to the Light because Voldemort killed Lily after he begged him not to. Severus says that he behaves as he does to keep his cover. I believe him, so it can't be because he is a bitter, hateful man who should never be allowed near children. I can't be wrong because I know more than you. No, I don't have to tell you what I know that you don't. Compared to me, you're a child. I need to protect you from that corrupting knowledge. No, your family can't be abusive, they're your blood kin. You have to go back for these obscure protections I put into place, even though they never get tested."
Yes, these actually contradict each other. But Albus doesn't see this. 3) He spent his life learning magic any way that he could, so is certain that if he doesn't know something, no one does. 4) He believes that knowing secrets is only for the wisest, most knowledgeable, most forgiving of people, so no one else should know secrets, but he should know all of them.
So he goes "Severus has my complete trust. He tells me that he turned to the Light because Voldemort killed Lily after he begged him not to. Severus says that he behaves as he does to keep his cover. I believe him, so it can't be because he is a bitter, hateful man who should never be allowed near children. I can't be wrong because I know more than you. No, I don't have to tell you what I know that you don't. Compared to me, you're a child. I need to protect you from that corrupting knowledge. No, your family can't be abusive, they're your blood kin. You have to go back for these obscure protections I put into place, even though they never get tested."
Splattered Cloak
Recovering Line Editor
This is nearly as much joke as criticism, but there's something to be said for a pet that can live longer than yourself. But yeah, now I wonder whether Fawkes molts more often than a phoenix should.
Ouch, right in the trauma! Granted, this is the person who decided to befriend Rachel...
It's interesting that she's self-aware enough to phrase it like this, and I'm glad that it works. And yes, what feels sacred to someone can vary wildly, with some odd effects on their priorities.
I like that this calls back to her frustrations with understanding Emma's motivations after the ABB incident that she hadn't learned about.
He wouldn't even have thought it, but on some level, yes. Same reason he keeps Snape as a professor, despite his consistent failure to either teach or discipline.
Many have tried to conflate these skill sets, throughout history. A good regime needs all three, but it's rare to see them combined and easy for someone high in any one to refuse to share power.
Yeah, that came out closer to Grendelwald than to Weaver, but warlord-era Skitter has seen violence work where nothing else did.
The nasty part is that Taylor doesn't even disagree, on some level. Violence should be the last resort, but she's never had all that many other resorts to try first. And with a certain kind of opponent, it's inevitable, so it's not worth spending too much on avoiding it. She's all in favor of eliminating violence, but her preferred method is to remove anyone who starts shit.
Even here, her rash action was to hand information to another trusted adult. She certainly could have gone lethal, but she prefers to let authorities do their job when they can and will. Granted, her patience for inaction has worn thin.
Not exactly, no. She doesn't start problems. She postures, threatens, and gathers data. She makes ultimatums and tries to talk you into working with her. If you call her bluff, she will go lethal, but she always lets you take the first shot. Just be aware that shots against bug clones, bystanders, or most especially her friends all count.
There are certainly some similarities, aren't there? Let's all work together, or else.
On some level, we all have messy priorities and conflicting traits, so this still works. But I can absolutely understand not wanting him to be a main character when you have trouble getting into his head. And for this story, it works really well for him to be winging his hands and trying to minimize the backlash of his wards' actions. He's going to be busy with the board of governors and the Ministry for a while, too, which conveniently keeps him out of Taylor's hair.
Harry Potter and the Scrambled Sorting tries to make all of Dumbledore's canon actions make sense in context and winds up with an absolute madman who waits in broom closets for the opportunity to interrupt amorous couples by dispensing wise-sounding nonsense. Methods of Rationality accomplishes the same by having him listen to every single prophecy in the DoM.
It takes quite a bit of effort just to properly explain the actions of book 1 Dumbledore, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone manage book 6. Even the oh-so-common "he's evil" approach doesn't actually explain why he does specific things.
I honestly believe it's usually for the best to just treat him as a black box whose motivations are ineffable. Rowling got away with it, and I don't see why everyone else shouldn't get to do the same.
This is one of my favorites as well. It's one of the only viable explanations I've seen used for why no one died in book 2. The more common one is that the basilisk didn't want to kill anyone and was actively resisting, but that doesn't help with exploding cauldrons, moving staircases, or acromantula.
It takes quite a bit of effort just to properly explain the actions of book 1 Dumbledore, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone manage book 6. Even the oh-so-common "he's evil" approach doesn't actually explain why he does specific things.
I honestly believe it's usually for the best to just treat him as a black box whose motivations are ineffable. Rowling got away with it, and I don't see why everyone else shouldn't get to do the same.
This is one of my favorites as well. It's one of the only viable explanations I've seen used for why no one died in book 2. The more common one is that the basilisk didn't want to kill anyone and was actively resisting, but that doesn't help with exploding cauldrons, moving staircases, or acromantula.
Given the 'plan' he went with in the books was to set up his own death, bequeath a book of fairy tales (and note the prior fairy tale comments from him, pre-ring damage), and hope Harry survives to get killed and come back in a fantastically, radically unusual way and then somehow beat Riddle after that...
Lots and lots of options.
I've written a little fanfiction, too, and the inconsistent characters/ones I personally just don't understand are a problem, like impossible timelines and world-breaking retcons.
If you choose to keep Albus and Taylor apart, or have their future interactions off-screen, that's a perfectly valid and appropriate way of handling it.
--
The conversation itself was well done. Albus did little but deflect questions and go back to 'trust me, bro.' Taylor, backed by Harry, kept going back to 'here's what I saw and the logical consequences that can come of it.' Albus finally went 'youthful indiscretions!' - very like he did in the forest when asking Taylor not to retaliate lethally when attacked first with lethal weapons.
Albus hasn't seen 'children' do wars. Taylor has, and she brought up notmjust examples, but ones she can show in a Pensive.
They left with no change to either side... as expected and appropriate.
--
But! Albus HAD to try to get Harry back under control, because his alleged 'plans' or possible 'hopes and dreams' or possible 'prophecies and fairy tales' depend on Harry.
Taylor WANTED to get Albus to change, because he could make war on Riddle and/or be active politically in a way that benefits her and/or give her a ton of actionable information/blackmail/combat training he's gathered over a very long lifetime.
--
We also found out some critical information during that conversation:
We can infer that Albus tried to firecall Moody and, apparently, at least 4 of Moody's go-to crew (4 MIGHT be the lower bound of 'several', 5 is more likely), none of whom answered.
We also hear Albus use the word 'organizing'. I'm going to lay out 13:3 odds in favor of 'raiding' being what Moody did, and that at least part of the reason all this took so long is that the sequence of events looks like this:
Hedwig arrives Moody's.
Moody security checks Hedwig and reads.
Moody hits the 'OVERTIME NOW NOW NOW' alert for his go-to crew.
Moody plans out the raids, quick and efficient.
Moody sends the info on to Aurors he trusts to ignore Albus and arrest a Marked young person in a low-threat environment, and to the Auror hierarchy in general.
Moody and his team start raiding Death Eater locations even while the message is in transit.
I'll also bet Albus said 'organizing' because that's exactly what he meant; all talking and planning and no action rapid enough.
IF this is roughly what happened, and Moody personally also believes Albus would not have moved this fast, then Taylor's credibility as a strategic asset in Moody's eyes just went way, way up. She successfully got actionable information and delivered it so rapidly and secretly that it could be acted upon before the enemy could render the information useless.
Possible consequences include that Moody goes to meet with the Potters and fill them in on what he discovered on the raids, as well as internal Auror politics/warnings.
--
Separately in the chapter, the alert to trusted Defense Association members and meeting with them revealed a lot; the members paid attention to the meeting, but only a couple had wands in hand (note Taylor had pepper spray and knife in hand); those are the most wary (good) and/or spoiling-to-fight (bad) members, but the vast majority wasn't ready for immediate combat.
That's ok! All ills can be solved with simple training. We'll start with the basics; a test. The entirety of the Defense Association against the Potters (just Mrs. Potter? Too much?) in urban combat (simulated by the Room of Requirement). And then since Taylor established her credentials, the training can begin.
--
Taylor and Hermione was handled well. I'll note those two operate on different timescales; to Taylor, a few days was an entire operation's worth of time, an eternity. To Ron and Hermione, it was a set of classes or two, trivial. Taylor also operates as a front-line combatant; she needs people she can depend on every minute of every day in case combat occurs or missions need to happen. Ron and school-mode-Hermione do not, nor have they had to except during combat/missions, which were very very rare (annualish).
Taylor's good at working with allies, even allies of convenience; I think she's getting a feel for Hermione's foibles... and Hermione will, in a bit, start understanding Taylor's foibles.
Taylor's foibles are more suited to surviving what's coming. Hermione's are more suited to civilian life... which, regrettably, Taylor is right about only having a chance of after either leaving to another continent or surviving - and winning - what's coming.
--
Taylor's advice to consider exiting the continent as an option was very wise.
I heard 2 things I thought make sense about JKR's morality which could be applied to Dumbledore.
- The worst thing you can do for your Soul is kill another human. No exceptions justifications or reasons matter, no killing.
- Everything is for the best, in this, the best of all possible worlds. So don't try to change things or make anything better, you can't.
- Location
- New England
Except Snape. Snape killing DD is fine.
Lycanthromancer
The Arcane Fuzz
- Location
- USA
Also anyone attempting to kill Hogwarts students. They're apparently just dandy.
FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And Molly killing Bellatrix is fine.
So is Trelawney killing Greyback with a crystal ball from a tower.
The various other people that killed Death Eaters in the final battle which include various students, order members, Ron, Kingsley, and etc.
Anyone attempting to kill Hogwarts students is, rather consistently, bad. A good JKR bash is all well and good, but why make up fake objections instead of using the plentiful real ones?
Lycanthromancer
The Arcane Fuzz
- Location
- USA
I wonder if Hermione noticed that neither she nor Ron got a note...
Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ahhhh…… maybe I should fix that….
FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Technically they didn't need notes since they sat with Harry and Taylor?
However, at thos time they weren't talking to Hermione so it heavily implies she wasn't a trusted member of the DA. Not sure how to fix that without going back and doing some editing. Easiest thing I can think of is having Harry slightly embarrassed and pulling their notes out of his pocket, commenting that he was going to give them in-person but got sidetracked.
One thing I would like to point out, is that i really like how at the beginning of this chapter, Taylor and Harry are getting closer. The chocolate and costume discussion scene was really nice and just made me softly smile. It shows them going into a tentative true relationship instead of a partnership based on circumstances.
Just a minor non sequitor to the current discussion in thought needed to be mentioned
Just a minor non sequitor to the current discussion in thought needed to be mentioned
It's a magical setting, so they would be golems, not robots. Although I suppose you could go the Rayearth route and give them something like the Mashin from Magic Knight Rayearth.
Just magically animate a toy or prop robot. Sure, it's maybe a misuse of muggle artifacts offense, but ask Taylor if she cares.
Lycanthromancer
The Arcane Fuzz
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- They/Any
Unfortunately, there's a strong textual counterexample in Tom Riddle - whose actions as a child were absolutely judged by Dumbledore, and in fact the entire "Tom's Early Life, A Retrospective" psychodrama that Dumbledore insists on taking Harry through isn't just to emphasize the importance of possible horcrux objects, but to try and guide Harry through the process of empathy that Albus realized, well after the fact, he totally failed to use on Tom.
My personal headcanon here is that Tom triggered the "oh no, bad person" alarms lurking from Albus's experiences with Gellert, and that his treatment of Tom as a kid was reflexive and based in trauma, because it certainly wasn't based in the kind of all-loving, all-forgiving persona he tries to portray to Harry. He doesn't really cotton on to that, or to the fact that he subconsciously divides all children into 'normal' kids (like himself) or 'abnormal' kids (like Gellert, ie: exhibiting what amounts to clinical signs of sociopathy) and 'normal' kids deserve infinite chances because they would never deliberately do anything too harmful, while 'abnormal' kids deserve to be judged harshly. That this results in kids like Draco being allowed to attempt murder multiple times (because he's not inherently bad, after all), or pushes someone like Tom towards becoming a Dark Lord (because he is inherently bad, of course), or even just allows the slurs and bullying and fantastical racism to run rampant... well, he can't question that too closely or it might topple one of the fundamental beliefs anchoring his psyche, because it's an awful lot like the eugenicist 'logic' that he and Gellert started with.
Like most humans, in other words, Albus has a bunch of emotional support cognitive dissonances that he can't look at without having to reexamine his entire philosophy and life, and that's an uncomfortable process, so he avoids it at all costs. It's just that his are rather more consequential than most people's.
And, Fencer, I gotta echo the comments that your method for writing Dumbledore echoes JKR's, in that he was really a deus ex machina clad in a bunch of Hero's Journey and boarding-school tropes, and there was never really a coherent underlying character and motivation, he just did what the plot demanded. Whatever option you land on - and having him be background bureaucratic obstruction is a valid option - your approach is working so far.