Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

If we're going to be serious about persuading Suzaku here, I recommend we use Words That Twist Like Daggers to make our attack(s) UMI, since otherwise he's just going to spend willpower to ignore us and we'll accomplish nothing. The derangement inducement is an optional part of the Charm if I'm reading it correctly, so a few good arguments backed by Excellency use (and possibly an Inevitability Technique or two) should be harmless to him but still make some decent progress towards convincing him.
 
i think that Suzaku actually gave a valid point, just that it was tinted by his own stubbornness-resulting with both him and lalouch's Knights doing what they think is best/most suited for their goals and worldview, and calling it the correct approach.

Having Kalan pov would be interesting here, i think
 
i think that Suzaku actually gave a valid point, just that it was tinted by his own stubbornness-resulting with both him and lalouch's Knights doing what they think is best/most suited for their goals and worldview, and calling it the correct approach.
He might have a valid point if the whole system wasn't blatantly and overwhelmingly corrupt and biased against non-Brittanians. If the police and so on were fair then sure, he'd be making a reasonable argument, but as it is? What he's suggesting would be a complete exercise in futility, and it's not exactly a difficult thing to figure out that that's the case (i.e. his insistence otherwise is somewhere between wishful thinking and a pathological need for his view to be correct).
 
Perhaps the true problem isn't in the system, but in the people. Rules, standards, and procedures can all be changed or updated, but they must all be implemented and applied by people. If those people have been benefiting by exploiting the system, not only will they tend to act in keeping with the old ways of doing things as much as possible, but they will use their experience of exploiting the system to resist the changes and attack those trying to make the changes. They also have the advantage of seniority and connections, having become far more intertwined with the system than any upstart reformer. To enact change from within against that sort of opposition, who can wield the system itself against any attempts to change it, typically requires becoming just as entwined and beholden as the corrupt exploiters of the system, which far too often leads to simply joining their ranks rather than effecting any worthwhile change. A system so entrenched often cannot be reformed, only replaced.
 
[x] Kallen

Vigilantes are needed in a system where the police of a subjugated nation are unable to effectively arrest politically connected members of the subjugator nation. Vigilantes are needed when the Rule of Law is hindered by The Law not applying to everyone. Change from within cannot happen when outsiders aren't allowed all the way in.
 
i think that Suzaku actually gave a valid point, just that it was tinted by his own stubbornness-resulting with both him and lalouch's Knights doing what they think is best/most suited for their goals and worldview, and calling it the correct approach.


It's valid if you don't have a good knowledge of how britana runs things. The oppression and crushing of non Britannians is not a flaw of the system, it's the system working as intended. Internal reform would be possible if the system was merely corrupt, but as is those running the system want it to work the way it does. An internal reformer would be dealt with harshly since they would be in essence trying to subvert the system and bend it towards their own ends. Suzaku either though genuine ignorance or willful blindness does not know this, lelouch very much does.


The Defiler rolls her eyes. "Yes, you big baby: and your Ace Breaker Gauss Rifle, Artifact version. You can even use it to beat a Knightmare to death, as I am sure you eventually will. I left it in the other room because it's damn-" Akio is already gone. "Heavy."

Woo! BFG for the win!
 
Last edited:
[x] Kallen

I put some words for the write in to answer Suzaku. Still needs some work. Suggestions anyone?

[] "What constitutes evil in their eyes?", you repeat his words. "Corrupted, unsympathetic system which is openly racist".
"This should give answer your second question. They want the rights and freedom which they got before they were subjugated, things which they don't get because system is so rotten that you need to almost destroy it and start anew to give any kind of equality".
"Suzaku. We managed to fix our problems, that doesn't mean others can do the same when there is lot more people who need help and none who care but themselves"
 
The underlined explains it all, Lelouch.


It could be said Suzaku, that your stubbornness to "change the system from within" even when said system is guaranteed to make a mockery of your efforts barring Fate/Sidereal interference, is nothing but "self-satisfying gratification" as well. Of course, I would expect him to retort that he's different.

As for the PoV vote, I'm actually somewhat interested in seeing through Kallen's eyes for a bit.
It is different though.

Suzaku absolutely has a valid point that is both logical and common. Maybe criminal organizations are based around vigilante justice, the ideal of protecting ones people, and as response to corruption. And last I checked, vigilantism is pretty fucking dangerous and illegal. It's not safe to have one group/person be judge-jury-executioner. He isn't wrong both from his point of view and an objective stand point.

Also it reminds him of himself and what he did. And if anyone hates Suzaku mostest, it's Suzaku. The feelings of those who sneer at him in our reality absolutely pales compared to how much he loathes himself and wants to die. Your hate stands next to his and feels like apathy. It shivers and wishes it could be as strong as Suzaku's hatred of Suzaku.

Suzaku's hate for Suzaku is on the tier of this chair this chair.
 
The feelings of those who sneer at him in our reality absolutely pales compared to how much he loathes himself and wants to die. Your hate stands next to his and feels like apathy. It shivers and wishes it could be as strong as Suzaku's hatred of Suzaku.
I already knew Suzaku loathes himself to a very strong degree. How does your post address the issue that Suzaku's doomed self-appointed Quest is pretty much for his own gratification rather than anything else?
 
I'd like for people to ignore Britannia being the system here for a moment. I believe that it would work best if we define the 'system' to be more an 'assumed just or fair system of law' before we treat it as the actual Current Law of Area 11. For all we know the majority of Brittannian law, as written, is actually quite good in concept and idealized usage. It could simply be that due to culture and the people involved, it's hugely exploited and no one who matters cares enough to stop or limit this.

To really get into the meat of 'written law' we would need to know more about the actual laws as they are. But Suzaku hides behind a front that 'wishes to enact peaceful change by working within the system' which is a kind of ideal he lives up to with his very life. Everything he does is a form of redemption. This is the most long lasting a painful. It's not that he doesn't want these things though, so try not to flanderize him too much... Anyway, with the concept of the system instead of the literal system it's easier to see what Suzaku might mean. Or what he's trying to say here.

By playing the vigilante we are posing ourselves as above the law/system. Even if the law/system is shitty in reality the idea of this law and system is part of what binds civilizations together. Not only are we completely chaotic to this function, we are provoking worse behavior from the ones who enforce it. Nothing about our actions are showing a side of 'peaceful protest'. Unfortunately, even in canon CG shit like this was only seen from a literal princess. She had little backlash due to her sister being a fucking badass. The best option there would be easily seen messages via graffiti or online activism.

Don't get me wrong. I'm well aware that peaceful protest alone in a situation like this is worthless. It might be the only kind remembered in the broad sense, but radical speakers and aggressive acts have their place in any civil rights movement. It's an ugly place. It's a downright horrible place. There is a reason why we say growing pains.

Britannia is used to this shit. It has experience shutting down the idea that humans are humans and not numbers. That was canon.

Here we have worse shit against us.

To some extent we need to follow a code of law. We need to set and enforce it among our people. But what are those laws? Who decides them and is it our right to even do so?

Suzaku regrets and hates the fact that he took the same role the Black Knights are. He killed his father to prevent something horrible only to walk through miles of corpses with his two best friends anyway. For all he knows he just made things worse. By killing his father he stepped outside of the law to try and save people he cared about. He went beyond the system and ruined everything by doing so.

I already knew Suzaku loathes himself to a very strong degree. How does your post address the issue that Suzaku's doomed self-appointed Quest is pretty much for his own gratification rather than anything else?
Hold on man I'm trying to explain Suzaku's point of view and shit.

Why didn't you bring up the other thing I talked about though?

Back to the above, Suzaku is projecting onto the Black Knights and Zero. He hates himself. But it isn't a burning rage hate at all moments of the day. He wants to atone and find redemption as well as genuinely help his people. This time without taking things into his own hands, because his hands are filthy with blood. Yay trauma.

If you think about these things, well, it is different. Lelouch wants to get revenge and kill his father. Suzaku wants to atone and die for his sins after making things better for the people he betrayed. By killing his father. He just doesn't want things to get worse. It's funny, because one killed his father and hates himself for it, and the other hates his father and wants to kill him!

So yeah. What was I saying...

Suzaku thinks that the Black Knights will fuck things up and make it worse because he sees himself within them. He has logical points that justify this too.

As for the question we must respond to, he is again not wrong. Morals/ethics/law is a complicated topic though, and what he is asking verges on philosophic navel gazing by Greek/Roman guys. And history.

We could quote academic tomes of oldness at him if we wanted, but in the end what matters perhaps MORE than any of that is understanding Suzaku. Understanding his motivations, the ones he represses, and the ones that our opinions/dislike have clouded or warped. No matter how much educational or rational smack down we use, or pretty words that Lelouch uses, we can only get through to Suzaku by understanding both what he wants and needs to hear.

Waiting until he's ultra super jaded and broken ala the end of R2 is shitty and useless. Killing him is not only a waste of potential resource but a narrative/thematic failure.

Doing the bestgoodplus speech here isn't going to instantly get him. In the first season the first opportunity to get him on Lulu's side for sure was when Mao kidnapped Nunnally, because Nunnally is one of his few remaining touchstones. Lelouch is too. He'd die for them both in the end. Going through the shit they did together kind of seals the deal. The road to Suzaku joining up with Lulu is going to be hard as fuck and it'll be damn worth it too.

I've lost sight of what I'm trying to explain but I guess it's ultimately a case of trying to explain Suzaku himself. Like I said, we have got to understand the kind of shit that he's gone and going through. Up until recently he didn't even know if Lulu or Nuna were even alive. That certainly plays a part in how fucking willing he is to be beat into the ground. There was no one there. Maybe if the three of them had met up sooner we wouldn't have Suzaku being this bad off but rest in pepperoni his sanity.

If you really fucking despise him then just pretend that you're a less oblivious Lelouch or something. Or really hypnotize yourself into being Nunally and remember Suzaku as that other-brother who helped carry you past a weeks worth of wartorn Japan and corpse stench infested hell. Hate him all you want but that doesn't remove that fact that Suzaku wasn't totally wrong even when he was being a hatefilled suicidal-but-cannot-die douche. Freyja? Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have gotten geassed to not die totally his bad.

I'm stopping now because otherwise this will continue to expand.
 
I believe that it would work best if we define the 'system' to be more an 'assumed just or fair system of law' before we treat it as the actual Current Law of Area 11.
And what would be the point of not considering the system we're having to fight against in favor of an idealized system that does not yet exist/may not be able to exist? Like you say, it's mostly pointless navel-gazing.

If you think about these things, well, it is different. Lelouch wants to get revenge and kill his father. Suzaku wants to atone and die for his sins after making things better for the people he betrayed.
Isn't that still just self-satisfying gratification though?

I guess we'll just have differ about your PoV re: Suzaku's ideals. I'm aware enough to realize I'm too biased against him.
 
And what would be the point of not considering the system we're having to fight against in favor of an idealized system that does not yet exist/may not be able to exist? Like you say, it's mostly pointless navel-gazing.


Isn't that still just self-satisfying gratification though?

I guess we'll just have differ about your PoV re: Suzaku's ideals. I'm aware enough to realize I'm too biased against him.

Right now, I personally wanna bonk him on the head for asking a question that has no 100% right or correct answer too. What I'm getting at it we have to consider both possible readings of his question in our response. As for the gratification thing. I suppose it does depend on how you think of suicide in general. Being someone who was considering suicide/wanting to die at the time I was watching Code Geass and still did for years afterwards, well, I don't think of it as being the same at all. There is certainly an element of self-satisfying gratification, of both selfishness and unselfishness, and certainly honor/duty for someone raised in traditional and high Japanese society; but I wouldn't say it's some kind of greedy drooling bestial sort of desire. That sort of take on any kind of suicidal feeling is naive.

It's as if he's trying a long and drawn out seppuku. But your millage may vary on that too. Cultural clash ahoy' and all.
 
Ok, came up with a speech. Suggestions for improvements are welcome.

[X] Plan Differing Perspectives

Speech/Stunt:
"If one believes the public statements Zero has made, they view the oppression of the weak by the strong as evil. On that matter, I don't think you would disagree with them. You obviously think that the system is doing something wrong - why else would you want to change it?" You give him a second to digest the idea, as you prepare to subtly nudge him towards joining your rebellion. "Where you differ is in how you think the problem should be handled. You believe the system can be changed from within. They quite clearly don't. From their perspective, they probably don't think the system can be fixed from within - why would they, when the very Emperor himself preaches that their oppression is just and noble, when corruption flows down into every major organization from a ruling class that believes that their superiority is inherent and are protected by law? To them, the system is rigged and beyond fixing. Hell, maybe some of them actually have tried to change the system from within, but were stonewalled at every turn or saw those who have tried die doing so - not everyone is so lucky as to survive being shot for refusal to follow an immoral order, Suzaku.

"So, they can't see any other choice but to act outside the system. They see no other choice but to stand up and take some kind of action, even if it's illegal, because the only other viable thing to do is accept being treated like they are less than human." You steel yourself for what you're going to say next, but Suzaku must be made aware of the horrid truths of the world if you're to bring him to your side, no matter how much they might hurt him. "And from that perspective, Suzaku, you are the one who is being self-righteous, judging them for not meeting a standard that from their point of view is impossible and pointless to pursue. A few of them might even claim that your actions are actually villainous, because in spite of your good intentions your service to the Britannian government supports and enables the forces that oppress them.

"Mind you, that's just their likely perspective." you backpedal slightly to avoid the inevitable outburst of indignation from your naive friend. "If you disagree, that's perfectly understandable, but it would behoove you to take some time to think about how others see the world if you're going to try to change it. You might find that things aren't so black and white as you think they are."

Charm Use:
- First Ebon Dragon Excellency, x10. 10 motes.**
- Ebon Dragon Inevitability Technique. Lower target for roll success to 6. 1 Willpower.

*Words That Twist Like Daggers was suggested for UMI, but I feel that Lelouch using UMI on Suzaku is OOC given that he refused to use Geass on him in canon. Lelouch wants to convince Suzaku that he's right, not force him to do so. (Excellency just makes him more convincing, though not unnaturally so, so that's acceptable).
** We could use up to 16 to blow our entire personal pool on this, but I don't think Lelouch would use everything IC unless he thought it was safe to do so. A reserve of power for the unexpected is important.

[X] Kallen

I think it'd be good to see this done from her perspective.

NOTE - Vote by plan name rather than by my username unless you want my same POV selection.
 
Last edited:
Ok, came up with a speech. Suggestions for improvements are welcome.

[] Plan Differing Perspectives

Speech/Stunt:
"If one believes the public statements Zero has made, they view the oppression of the weak by the strong as evil. On that matter, I don't think you would disagree with them. You obviously think that the system is doing something wrong - why else would you want to change it?" You give him a second to digest the idea, as you prepare to subtly nudge him towards joining your rebellion. "Where you differ is in how you think the problem should be handled. You believe the system can be changed from within. They quite clearly don't. From their perspective, they probably don't think the system can be fixed from within - why would they, when the very Emperor himself preaches that their oppression is just and noble, when corruption flows down into every major organization from a ruling class that believes that their superiority is inherent and are protected by law? To them, the system is rigged and beyond fixing.

"So, they can't see any other choice but to act outside the system. They see no other choice but to stand up and take some kind of action, even if it's illegal, because the only other viable thing to do is accept being treated like they are less than human." You steel yourself for what you're going to say next, but Suzaku must be made aware of the horrid truths of the world if you're to bring him to your side, no matter how much they might hurt him. "And from that perspective, Suzaku, you are the one who is being self-righteous, judging them for not meeting a standard that from their point of view is impossible and pointless to pursue. A few of them might even claim that your actions are actually villainous, because in spite of your good intentions your service to the Britannian government supports and enables the forces that oppress them.

"Mind you, that's just their likely perspective." you backpedal slightly to avoid the inevitable outburst of indignation from your naive friend. "If you disagree, that's perfectly understandable, but it would behoove you to take some time to think about how others see the world if you're going to try to change it. You might find that things aren't so black and white as you think they are."

Charm Use:
- First Ebon Dragon Excellency, x10. 10 motes.**

*Words That Twist Like Daggers was suggested for UMI, but I feel that Lelouch using UMI on Suzaku is OOC given that he refused to use Geass on him in canon. Lelouch wants to convince Suzaku that he's right, not force him to do so. (Excellency just makes him more convincing, though not unnaturally so, so that's acceptable).
** We could use up to 16 to blow our entire personal pool on this, but I don't think Lelouch would use everything IC unless he thought it was safe to do so. A reserve of power for the unexpected is important.

[] Kallen

I think it'd be good to see this done from her perspective.

NOTE - Vote by plan name rather than by my username unless you want my same POV selection.
I'd suggest including a line in here pointing out that it's actually very possible that some of the BK's have tried the working-from-the-inside approach, only to be completely stonewalled. Maybe add that it's actually pretty judgemental/arrogant for him to assume without evidence that that's not the case (albeit in less confrontational terms).

For Charm use I'd recommend splashing down a point of willpower for an Inevitability technique; we're probably going up against an MDV in the 7 - 10 range here after all modifiers are taken into account, so I don't think we should take chances. On Words That Twist Like Daggers, I'll note that in this case the Charm isn't actually warping his mind at all as we're not using that function of it; it's just preventing him from going 'nope, not listening'.
 
I'd suggest including a line in here pointing out that it's actually very possible that some of the BK's have tried the working-from-the-inside approach, only to be completely stonewalled. Maybe add that it's actually pretty judgemental/arrogant for him to assume without evidence that that's not the case (albeit in less confrontational terms).

Good point. I'll add something along those lines.

For Charm use I'd recommend splashing down a point of willpower for an Inevitability technique; we're probably going up against an MDV in the 7 - 10 range here after all modifiers are taken into account, so I don't think we should take chances.

Will add.

On Words That Twist Like Daggers, I'll note that in this case the Charm isn't actually warping his mind at all as we're not using that function of it; it's just preventing him from going 'nope, not listening'.

I'm going to need to get back home in a few hours to look at the game manuals to remember exactly how UMI works.
 
I'm going to need to get back home in a few hours to look at the game manuals to remember exactly how UMI works.
IIRC it's mostly just used as a catch-all term for magically enhanced persuasion. In this case, however, WTTLD doesn't actually make social attacks any more likely to succeed- it's not twisting the target's mind to make them accept your words, and we wouldn't be using the part of it that forceably alters the victim's personality.
 
For a show I watched in 2008-2009 I have way too many feelings about Code Geass.

I blame this quest for reigniting it.
 
Back
Top