Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

You misunderstood me. Or, rather, I mangled the explanation badly. The idea would be to enroll into a university (pass entrance exams), then arrange to sit for examinations without actually spending time attending lectures, seminars, etc. The donations, if any, would be needed to arrange this.

On the PhD - I wasn't able to find this for USA, but in several countries I know it's possible to apply for PhD dissertation defense without attending a PhD study program. It's essentially a way for researchers who start their jobs directly after their masters / bachelor degrees. So, for example, you spend ten years in a research institution. You do the work, obtain results, publish the papers. At some point, in order to advance your career you feel the need to obtain a PhD (for example, to switch to a teaching position). So, what do you do? You prepare your thesis, and then you arrange to sit the necessary examinations, and then you have a defense. It's not a honorary PhD. It's just that you don't attend the course itself. I am fairly sure that this option should be available in USA also - it's just not advertised, because it's usually arranged on individual basis.

So, for Molly - buy a dot or two in technology and/or academics, then work together with your demons on some project (neural networks based on reverse engineering the demonic presence as shown in the computer hard drives? Or material science for armors we make. Or, if we are like super ambitious, spend effort to lay a foundational thesis of motonic science - that last one would probably require a lot of successes, though). Use all the dice modifiers to write the best possible thesis, maybe publish some papers as an independent researcher. Then get our PhD.
Not how it works in US universities afaik. If its not a degree being offered as remote learning, you have to come in.
Some professors require attendance and count both it and class interaction as part of the grade for a course.
Some dont. So it depends.

And of course, there are practical courses, depending on your major.
We dont need, or want the amount of attention that comes from groundbreaking research.
I would advocate actively avoiding it.

I am not particularly bent on Molly picking up a PhD.
But a bachelors is more or less mandatory, and a masters would be nice.
My opinion.

Of course, Molly can buy Splintered Gale Shintai. Literally no reason why she should be unable to make the attendance requirements for any degree she should choose to take. University attendance is in no way an impediment to her doing other stuff; whenever she needs to be away, she spins off a clone to go to class for here.

A degree does nothing for Molly. And is frankly a waste of time to get.
Certification matters in how seriously people take you in certain fields.
Networking and access to university library systems are also a non trivial benefit.
Even fucking vampires go to school.

The late and unlamented Duke Paolo Ortega, warlord and troubleshooter for the Red Court, was literally a South American university professor who spent a lot of time debunking paranormal phenomena. We are introduced to him on notJerry Springer as Dr Ortega, premier expert on paranormal phenomena. Its a plot point.

Not to mention, she's the eldest kid of seven. There are examples to be set.
 
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Certification matters in how seriously people take you in certain fields.
Networking and access to university library systems are also a non trivial benefit.
Even fucking vampires go to school.
Money matter far more then some bit of paper. Any AP spent on a degree is far better spent on things like adventure for moreXP. Or founding a company and advancing tech a decade . Or making mass social attack to shutdown people buying drugs depriving the Red court of money would be better. Frankly even a clone Molly has better thing to do like learning MA, or path magic.
 
It pretty clearly states, or at least implies, that the Winter Court's rulers got their power by some sort of sacrifice.
However, it doesnt say it was the same sort of mass ritual that the Darkhallow involves.

The principle of keeping what you kill is repeatedly demonstrated in the Dresdenverse.
Nicodemus Archleone allegedly grows stronger for each Knight of the Cross he kills, and its stated that naagloshii grow in power by murdering wizards and eating their Power somehow.

I would not be at all surprised if the Erlking killed and ate the power of multiple sprits to get so buff, same as the Nightmare tried to do to Dresden in Grave Peril. But there is at the moment no evidence he was involved in a Darkhallow-type ritual.

It says that the ErlKing gained his power in the same kind of mass ritual as the Darkhallow, and then says they Fey Queens, etc gained their powers in the same way as well. It's very clear they all pulled off Dark Hallow-alikes.
 
On the subject of education - I want to suggest shooting for the stars and trying to recreate motonic science. Ie uncovering the technological means of manipulating essence and scientific principles that really govern the reality. Butcher called human technology "ferromancy" on some occasions, and motonic science is a genuine scientific field with very clear benefits.
 
This is not from me, that is basically Butcher"s response to someone about it along with elaborating how they got the power from it. This is where I got the information from. Along with that, that statement is meant to act as supporting evidence to the earlier statement on how they got there power in the firstplace.
Here's the full WoJ and instigating question for this topic though:

I'm still curious about who could hurt Mab. Other than Titania, nobody comes to mind.


Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania–though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court–again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)
link to source cowl is pretty clearly in the "can fight to a mutual loss in a white room, but beware the fact that Mab doesn't typically stand around waiting in them" group.
 
I think being busy with being Queen of Hell is enough of an excuse to derail other career-expectations.
Not especially.
We arent likely to be involved in the nitty gritty rulership of our Horizon Realm. We cant even be in our Hell for more than five days.
Expect Molly to be have a regent/seneschal/council/elected assembly handling most of the governing.

Do remember that Michael juggles two fulltime jobs as Knight and parent, with a career as a carpenter and building contractor.
With the only overt aid being his wife, who is his sparring partner, armorer and co-parent.
Her examples set a pretty high bar.
Money matter far more then some bit of paper. Any AP spent on a degree is far better spent on things like adventure for moreXP. Or founding a company and advancing tech a decade . Or making mass social attack to shutdown people buying drugs depriving the Red court of money would be better. Frankly even a clone Molly has better thing to do like learning MA, or path magic.
Respectfully thats nonsense.
Money buys resources and access, it doesnt buy knowledge or respect or networking. And significant characters repeatedly demonstrate that knowledge and education is valued in this setting.

Listens to Wind goes back to university every decade. Paolo Ortega was a university professor. Tali Inverno is a lawyer; so was Lucius Glau.Dresden on-screen is proud of the fact that his daughter is on the path to doing better than his GED
This shit matters here.

It says that the ErlKing gained his power in the same kind of mass ritual as the Darkhallow, and then says they Fey Queens, etc gained their powers in the same way as well. It's very clear they all pulled off Dark Hallow-alikes.
No, I dont think thats what it says. That the Erlking consumed power yes.
That he ran a Darkhallow no.

Just the mechanics dont work.
There were no population centers in the Old World of the density of 20th/21st century cities whose sacrifice would power the ascension of a Mab-tier magical power back when the Erlking became a thing.

And it definitely does not say that for the Fey Queens, something thats supported by the fact that later books have given some indication of where the power thats invested in the Queens came from.
The triple goddess motif is not coincidental, and Mother Winter answered to the name of a Fate when Dresden summoned her.
On the subject of education - I want to suggest shooting for the stars and trying to recreate motonic science. Ie uncovering the technological means of manipulating essence and scientific principles that really govern the reality. Butcher called human technology "ferromancy" on some occasions, and motonic science is a genuine scientific field with very clear benefits.
I dont really think thats likely to be in line with the game's themes.
Its an RPG, not an empire builder.
 
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Do remember that Michael juggles two fulltime jobs as Knight and parent, with a career as a carpenter and building contractor.
With the only overt aid being his wife, who is his sparring partner, armorer and co-parent.
Her examples set a pretty high bar.
Are you sure he does much carpentry?
I was assuming it was effectivly a half-time job at most.

Regardless, the idea that we should have a regular job or degree is propably kinda there, due to Molly growing up in 20th century America, but it's honstly pretty nonsensical.
We can make a lot of money without one and we will certainly take great responsibilities anyway. As for connections, we are making them all the time, from demon-hunting monks to the Blackstaff himself.

We don't have to life that kind of "normal" half-life, not as an Exalted, not as a ruler of at least one Hell (later propably more) and not as a supernatural creature of near-infinite lifespan.
 
I dont really think thats likely to be in line with the game's themes.
Its an RPG, not an empire builder.
That this is an RPG doesn't mean we can't change the world in more ways than stabbing evil in the face. Bringing forth other changes, like providing an impetus for a whole new revolutionary field of science and technology can also be on the table.
 
It took awhile, tho. But we do have a certain charm...

Well. Just don't murder DP with spreadsheets. He is already new to this system and running like, two more quests on the side.
 
While Empire building might or might not happen (and it's arguable which would be better for the story, as proper Empire building can be a large entry barrier), some manner of faction building would almost certainly happen as we grow in power. Even omitting our kingdom, if we go forward and claim the Dragon's nest in the underground Chicago, and recruit Whamps who live there, we'll have to manage them at least a bit. It need not be mechanically rigorous, but there's probably going to be some manner of effect on the story.
 
You misunderstood me. Or, rather, I mangled the explanation badly. The idea would be to enroll into a university (pass entrance exams), then arrange to sit for examinations without actually spending time attending lectures, seminars, etc. The donations, if any, would be needed to arrange this.
I just want to point out that harward literally post their lectures online for free for anyone to watch, the only thing you get by going to collage is that you're tested on the knowledge and you get a certificate that you've learned whatever it is you study. That's what ou pay for.

Since she only needs the knowledge why attend lectures in person when she has AI

proof did they do this in 2006? no idea but it wouldn't surprise me

edit, not the link I was looking for but ah here it is, I meant MIT
 
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The principle of keeping what you kill is repeatedly demonstrated in the Dresdenverse.
If we hang around wizards long enough they might even decide this is the answer to Molly's growth. She gets to eat a little bit of something from everyone she kills.

It's not exactly true, but it's shaping up such that we're probably going to kill at least one big gribblie per arc, and attributing all of our growth to a single kill would be an easy mistake to make in this context.

It'd also be somewhat comforting, she just alarming omnivorous on a spiritual level instead of being a complete mystery. :V

Still scary, but not in an wholly unknown way.
 
Are you sure he does much carpentry? I was assuming it was effectivly a half-time job at most.

Regardless, the idea that we should have a regular job or degree is propably kinda there, due to Molly growing up in 20th century America, but it's honstly pretty nonsensical. We can make a lot of money without one and we will certainly take great responsibilities anyway. As for connections, we are making them all the time, from demon-hunting monks to the Blackstaff himself.

We don't have to life that kind of "normal" half-life, not as an Exalted, not as a ruler of at least one Hell (later propably more) and not as a supernatural creature of near-infinite lifespan.
1)To my recollection, yes.
He is a military veteran(short service, presumably, and got training as a medical corpsman) and does have some investments from early on that have done very well, allegedly, but yeah, you do the math, and that work does matter to his bottomline.

Remember, dude has 7 kids. Seven. In Chicago. Believe me, kids are expensive.

And while the Carpenters arent living high on the hog, they dont have every kid wearin his elders castoffs and food security being an issue. The Church provides moral and logistic support but no funding I know of, and he pays for his own expenses and hosts his colleagues from out of town. They're solidly middle class. Big house. Even has a spare guestroom.

Money has to come from somewhere, even with the favor of the White God.
And to my recollection, Charity has been a fulltime mom ever since she finished community college.

2)Magic-side connections come with normal missions. The other type doesnt.
For Molly's sake, she has to make an active effort to cultivate the other types of connections with normal ass people and engage with human society.

Part of the point of playing a PC in an urban fantasy setting is engaging with modern society.
Else you might as well play a Harry Potter game where its not a factor.

That this is an RPG doesn't mean we can't change the world in more ways than stabbing evil in the face. Bringing forth other changes, like providing an impetus for a whole new revolutionary field of science and technology can also be on the table.
It kinda does mean that. Urban fantasy setting, not epic fantasy. And in modern society at that.
Just from a storytelling standpoint, trying to extrapolate the results and implications of even minor societal changes in modern society is a lot more work than you are realizing.

Just the act of, say, laundering an additional fifty to a hundred tons of gold each year into the world market via the Democratic Republic of Congo could set off a new war in Central Africa as neighbors and various interest groups attempt to muscle in.

Or, to use your example, if we were somehow successful in discovering and proving the existence and workings of motonic science. And then kicked off a new arms race, like happened with nuclear physics.
Only with potentially worse weapons, because motonic science allows for stuff like mind control.

And if you think I'm doomsaying, do remember that the last time the US officially got involved in magic in this quest's backstory, they tried to weaponize it and created such a mess the Knights had to do cleanup.

This is frankly more work than I would expect or want my QM to do.
Thats the sort of thing that kills quests.
DP has been willing to change that one before.
ASOIAF was also an RPG before we started claiming an kingdom, then an Empire.
You underestimate the work involved just in setup.

This is a quest where the two primary source materials for the setting, World of Darkness and the Dresden Files, are both urban fantasy, with a bias towards the West. Better than two thirds of the world and four fifths of it's population, including most of those where any new power player or dogooder would be drawn to, isnt fleshed out.

There's little to no guidance in WoD or DF for a GM trying to tell a story in Latin America or Africa or Asia, places with plenty of real life issues and where storytelling can have unexpected pitfalls. DF has barely any information on Europe, even.

And pop culture is not really all that much help in filling in the gaps.
A Man on Fire/Sicario/Sicario II marathon might be considered sufficient local color for writing a brief episode in Mexico, but if you're transitioning to empire building in a world thats basically ours, you need a lot more info and a lot more sensitivity.

I dont consider the juice to be worth the squeeze.
My opinion.
If we hang around wizards long enough they might even decide this is the answer to Molly's growth. She gets to eat a little bit of something from everyone she kills.

It's not exactly true, but it's shaping up such that we're probably going to kill at least one big gribblie per arc, and attributing all of our growth to a single kill would be an easy mistake to make in this context.
It'd also be somewhat comforting, she just alarming omnivorous on a spiritual level instead of being a complete mystery. :V

Still scary, but not in an wholly unknown way.
Yup.
Until she suddenly spawns a new Horizon Realm with tens of millions of mortal and non-mortal residents out of nowhere. :V
I AM looking forward to the IC reactions to that when it happens
 
Easist way to effect mass social change is get up expression, and launch mass social attacks. Want to up NASA funding 100 times easy, stop the drug trade by giving everybody a negative intimacy to drugs etc.
 
Supernatural social excellency is not an OCP in Dresden Files.

Hypothetical social build Molly hitting a nation with 35+ sux speech* is going to provoke a proportional response and escalation. We are not ready for that fight.

*Excellency, Full suit of difficulty adjusters + Soul Rendering Practice, Crowned with Fury signature...
 
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I like the idea of going for a degree for the social benefits but sitting in classes is a waste of time for us, so we should just skip that part.

In my experience few university classes actually have any requirement to attend the lectures. And we can just not take those. Or use our ridiculous social stats to charm the relevant professors into giving us an exception.

Use difficulty reducers to speed run the assignments and all that's left would be the group projects and the examinations. Overall a small time investment, and we would get access to the university as a bonus too.

Supernatural social excellency is not an OCP in Dresden Files.

Hypothetical social build Molly hitting a nation with 35+ sux speech* is going to provoke a proportional response and escalation. We are not ready for that fight.

*Excellency, Full suit of difficulty adjusters + Soul Rendering Practice, Crowned with Fury signature...
We don't have to do it by standing up on a podium and making a speech. Write a book or a movie script or something. There is precedent for that too, and if the white court can get away with it so can we. We just have to pick our targets and remember we aren't invincible.

Either keep things general enough that no specific group feels threatened (increasing enthusiasm for high tech development or instilling general pro social attitudes or whatever) or make sure it's a targeted attack at one specific power we are already hostile with. Like say the Red Court.

If it's something published then we can take steps to do so anonymously too.
 
Yup.
Until she suddenly spawns a new Horizon Realm with tens of millions of mortal and non-mortal residents out of nowhere. :V
I AM looking forward to the IC reactions to that when it happens
This is incidentally the primary issue I have with the above stuff in your post. Growing a world in our soul and barely doing anything with it is sort of lame. A solar is a good hack and slash hero, but when you're supposed to ascend to ruling a hell having one that basically exists as a desk ornament is lame.
 
Easist way to effect mass social change is get up expression, and launch mass social attacks. Want to up NASA funding 100 times easy, stop the drug trade by giving everybody a negative intimacy to drugs etc.
Guess what Senior Council member Aleron LaFortier's specialty is. Guess how the Leanansidhe got her reputation.
Ask the supernaturally attractive White Court how much control their infiltration of the entertainment and porn industries has gotten them in the setting.

Tell them all how you're going to attempt to implement large scale social campaigns without opposition.

You should really stop assuming that literally anything Molly can currently do is some sort of OCP for the setting.
Some are, mind, but for the vast majority what's unique is it all being in the hands of one teenager who is beholden to noone besides her own conscience.
Supernatural social excellency is not an OCP in Dresden Files.
Hypothetical social build Molly hitting a nation with 35+ sux speech* is going to provoke a proportional response and escalation. We are not ready for that fight.

*Excellency, Full suit of difficulty adjusters + Soul Rendering Practice, Crowned with Fury signature...
^^^
Battlegrounds Mab literally talks to the entire city of Chicago at the same time. The Leanansidhe's legends are about her inspiring artists to extraordinary effort. The White Court crippled the Blampires by having Bram Stoker write a wildly popular novel with Blampire weaknesses, and Mab got the Brothers Grimm to write similarly popular fairy tales.

Senior Council member Aleron LaFortier was known for illusion magic. Nation-scale illusion magic.
None of this shit is new.
The idea that we can just swagger in and implement widescale social change via social campaigns is hilariously wrongheaded.
 
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^^^
Battlegrounds Mab literally talks to the entire city of Chicago at the same time. The Leanansidhe's legends are about her inspiring artists to extraordinary effort. The White Court crippled the Blampires by having Bram Stoker write a wildly popular novel with Blampire weaknesses, and Mab got the Brothers Grimm to write similarly popular fairy tales.

Senior Council member Aleron LaFortier was known for illusion magic. Nation-scale illusion magic.
None of this shit is new.
The idea that we can just swagger in and implement widescale social change via social campaigns is hilariously wrongheaded.

I would argue the reverse. Or rather take the same evidence and come to the reverse conclusions.
The fact that it is a known thing in setting is a reason to do it not a reason to not do it. Other parties are playing this game, we should be too. And as an exalted we should be playing it better.
We dueled words with Mab. She was very good at it. But was she 35+ successes good?

The point isn't to swagger in and steamroll the nonexistent opposition. Instead we can fight meaningful opponents in the game of propaganda and social change, perhaps with a side order of skullduggery. Or are we going to ignore an axis of battle?

Obviously we shouldn't think we are invincible and immediately attack the biggest target we can find, but that is true for everything. Social change or swordsmanship.
 
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This is incidentally the primary issue I have with the above stuff in your post. Growing a world in our soul and barely doing anything with it is sort of lame. A solar is a good hack and slash hero, but when you're supposed to ascend to ruling a hell having one that basically exists as a desk ornament is lame.
I dont agree.

Just by existing as a force in being, they change the supernatural power balance, and Molly's place in it. That has second- and third- order effects on the mortal world, just indirectly. Not to mention that they provide IC justification for the Backup Background, a Resources 10(My Personal Hell) and a secondary internment site for prisoners and HVTs that isnt Demonreach.

There's a whole group of plots that would need reworking just because they came into being.

I fully expect them to establish a presence in the mortal world, along the lines of the embassies the svartalfar have.
In Chicago, and elsewhere.
Kinda like a Technocracy construct from Mage, actually.

But its one thing to have immediate ramifications on the supernatural just by existing.
Quite another to actively attempt to change mortal society in defiance of the status quo and all the other Powers out there, mortal amd otherwise, within a handful of years of showing up.

I mean, our Realm/Hell will have officially existed for less than half a decade by the timeline of Battlegrounds.
Young nations usually dont have particularly aggressive foreign policy outreach.
Too busy settling shit at home. But other people have to consider that they could.
Did you forget that this is the 21 century Molly can fire off 5+ social attacks with animosity.
Do you realize how long the Sidhe and the rest of the supernaturals have been doing this? Do you think its new to them?
Do you understand that an advertising firm with a writing room of around 20x 6-dice pool mortals could potentially match that 35 success total for a prepared Cha + Expression advertising campaign due to how teamwork dice pools work in WoD?

I would argue the reverse. Or rather take the same evidence and come to the reverse conclusions.
The fact that it is a known thing in setting is a reason to do it not a reason to not to it. Other parties are playing this game, we should be too. And as an exalted we should be playing it better.
We dueled words with Mab. She was very good at it. But was she 35+ successes good?

The point isn't to swagger in and steamroll the nonexistent opposition. Instead we can fight meaningful opponents in the game of propaganda and social change, perhaps with a side order of skullduggery. Or are we going to ignore an axis of battle?

Obviously we shouldn't think we are invincible and immediately attack the biggest target we can find, but that is true for everything. Social change or swordsmanship.
Thats the thing: They could.
But they generally arent, because most people recognize the risk of escalation.
Those that do nibble around the edges and dont do anything big ay a time.

Consider Mab being able to throw 20 dice at convincing Molly, without any backup or preparation.
If she bothered to pull in Sidhe experts and preparation for an actual social campaign, consider how it would turn out for her.
Or just bestowed blessings on a bunch of advertising firms to do the social campaign for her.

We are not a Big Fish yet, and a lot of people underestimate the rest of the setting.
 
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stuff, this debate overall
Look, it is going to be fine. We are getting there. Big dice pool matter, and it is going to feel fantastic to actually use them.

It is just there is a periodic flare up of "actually, there is One Weird Trick" and generally that One Weird Trick ends up being something very impressive, but ultimately, not that sort of unstoppable force that it initially gets presented as. It is a bit of a sore issue, at this point.
 
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