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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Artemis1992 said:
Would you bow if you met a foreign chancellor or president?
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Yes? If it was culturally appropriate and I wish to remain on decent terms with them?
LightLan said:
I am really sick of flinching away from Mab's merest shadow.
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WTF, dude? A slight bow of the head and making a polite greeting backed by our Etiquette skill is not flinching from Mab's shadow. That's just hyperbolic silliness.
Cavalar said:
So, Mab isn't a member of the Winter Court? Interesting, I remember the situation was different in the DF. Well, you consistently have been voting for Mab's appeasement, I suppose, I can't change your mind about the issue.
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More hyperbolic nonsense.

Mab is the Queen of the world's largest supernatural faction, the one with the most power and the greatest responsibility (reality doesn't defend itself, unfortunately), bar the White God and his Angels.

Having Winter as a 1 dot enemy is like having beef with a sheriff out in the middle of Wyoming because you banged his daughter and his wife. That doesn't get you on the FBI's Most Wanted list and your name doesn't come across the POTUS' desk in their morning intelligence briefing.
 
BronzeTongue said:
This is sort of getting into "do you want to be right, or do you want to win?" territory in my mind.

If showing her the courtesies she expects costs us nothing but some pride in exchange for a more favorable negotiating position then it's worth the bargain.

We don't need to go crazy with it, but let's not put our self satisfaction over the lives we're negotiating for here.
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Bowing isn't showing courtesy, it's showing obedience. The Prince of Luxembourg doesn't bow to the Emperor of Japan or the King of the United Kingdom despite them both representing countries vastly more powerful than his.

Molly may be an immature Demon Emperor, but she's still a Demon Emperor. Bowing now undermines her status forever. Molly isn't her vassal. She's an independent power. A small power today, but still a power.
 
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Alratan said:
Funny that an elder would have that opinion.
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The Mothers are who the fey queens run home to when they get into trouble. Mother Summer in particular is owed at least something by almost everyone that matters in faerie and quite a few places outside of it.

She doesn't need to invoke her age to get respect, just the survival instincts of whoever is talking to her.

Edit: Autocorrect again. I need to stop posting from my phone.
 
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uju32 said:
She feels animosity towards Fetches.
She doesnt know enough about Mab to feel more than wariness, as far as I can tell. She might think that Mab has uktimate responsibility for them, but not that she sent them to get her.

And she knows IC that Mab is both fucking powerful and has legal claims on both Harry and now Mathews.
She is here to negotiate. She has every incentive to be courteous.
Not obsequious, but courteous.
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I can argue that Usum thinks that Mab is Incarnae-level Raksha, so Molly is preconceived against Mab and there is a different standard of courtesy between Queen of Air and Darkness and Princess of Green Sun.
 
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Alratan said:
Bowing isn't showing courtesy, it's showing obedience. The Prince of Luxembourg doesn't bow to the Emperor of Japan or the King of the United Kingdom despite them both representing countries vastly more powerful than his.

Molly may be an immature Demon Empwror, but she's still a Demon Emperor. Bowing now undermines her status forever. Molly isn't her vassal. She's an independent power. A small power today, but still a power.
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Not even a bow though and still stupid mind set.
 
In the story aspect the fae are somewhat like exalted fae and only somewhat. They are far more defined by their specific story than much of a constantly changing narrative. Here they seem to be way too ordered to be anything like exalted ones though right? They also all have mortal origins.
 
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Alratan said:
Bowing isn't showing courtesy, it's showing obedience. The Prince of Luxembourg doesn't bow to the Emperor of Japan or the King of the United Kingdom despite them both representing countries vastly more powerful than his.

Molly may be an immature Demon Empwror, but she's still a Demon Emperor. Bowing now undermines her status forever. Molly isn't her vassal. She's an independent power. A small power today, but still a power.
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Bowing your head isn't bowing, it's basically a slightly deeper than normal nod. A perfectly normal show of respect to someone up the food chain from you with which you have no real existing relationship.
 
firefrog600 said:
Also escaping the government goons eh though. God their probably gonna be a recurring thing that in my mind make me want to go tuck it then monologue to them how fucked the world is and how unprepared they are.
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If they keep showing up Endless Torment Emanation is worth looking into. 12XP a charm that raises the difficulty of a specific office or project by 2 for the rest of the current story by paying 3 essence once.
 
uju32 said:
She is Mother Summer.
The woman has an entire shelf of plagues both mythological and real.
She is literally one of the two or three scariest things you will meet thats not an Archangel.

When she gives advice, you consider it. Strongly. For your own sake.
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While that is true, she is also one of the oldest things out there. Her saying you should respect your elders is like a king being a monarchist.
 
I think most of the 'neutral greeting' people don't want us to explicitly pick a fight. On that note Bronze Tongue did a good write in earlier in the thread that I think balances the interests of a formal greeting with not being subservient quite well.

And borrowing language from Ursum should be great. Don't you remember how they greeted Mouse?

BronzeTongue said:
[X] Courtesy from a Devil
-[X] Activate IPM
-[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
—[X] Activate with WP if possible
-[X] Lean on Usum for formal manners and guidance against saying anything that might leave us on the hook with the fey. Offer her a polite greeting by those terms.
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[X] Courtesy from a Devil v2
 
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[X] Courtesy from a Devil
-[X] Activate IPM
—[X] Activate with WP if possible
-[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
-[X] Lean on Usum for formal manners and guidance against saying anything that might leave us on the hook with the fey. Offer her a polite greeting by those terms.
-[X] STUNT: For but a barest of moments you hold Mab's gaze, your eyes showing a glimpse of coldness beyond the deepest reaches of winter, as your mind is safe behind the impervious walls of your power. Then you incline your head politely, greeting her, not as as a lesser, not as a subordinate (never a subordinate!), but as a youth greeting her elder worthy of respect and caution, Usum whispering in your ears the necessary words.

firefrog600 said:
Can anyone post what this does somewhere?
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That's a name of a Neverborn. As in a Dead Primordial. As in being from the Age of Legends and actually even from before that. Moreover, it's written in Old Realm, the First Language of Creation.

It's a first very real line of investigation for the origins of our exaltation.
 
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Alratan said:
That's not what the vote says.
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It literally says just that;

[] Bow your head and offer a courteous greeting (Charisma+Etiquette)

What do you think bowing your head means? It's basically a nod.

That's not bowing at the waist, genuflecting, kowtowing, or curtsying. It's a freaking nod.
 
Alratan said:
Bowing isn't showing courtesy, it's showing obedience. The Prince of Luxembourg doesn't bow to the Emperor of Japan or the King of the United Kingdom despite them both representing countries vastly more powerful than his.

Molly may be an immature Demon Emperor, but she's still a Demon Emperor. Bowing now undermines her status forever. Molly isn't her vassal. She's an independent power. A small power today, but still a power.
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This is all untrue.
1)Molly is not a Demon Emperor, she is an Infernal Exalt.
She would be a candidate for Demon Emperor if the world ended; we dont want it to.

2)We are here to negotiate.
Not to posture about some hypothetical dignity that is forever marred because we inclined our head.

Cavalar said:
I can argue that Usum thinks that Mab is Incarnae-level Raksha, so Molly is preconceived against Mab and there is different standard of courtesy between Queen of Air and Darkness and Princess of Green Sun.
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And that would be untrue. The Fae are not Raksha, and Molly has no opinion about Raksha anyway.
There is also, as far as we know, no preexisting standards of courtesy between an Exalt and Mab. We're making it up as we go along.
 
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LightLan said:
If they keep showing up Endless Torment Emanation is worth looking into. 12XP a charm that raises the difficulty of a specific office or project by 2 for the rest of the current story by paying 3 essence once.
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Allies/Followers 2 Cyberdevils is 6XP, and allows us to keep tabs on them and other law enforcement via hacking so we dont get surprised. Pretty much mandatory.
 
[X] Courtesy from a Devil
-[X] Activate IPM
-[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
—[X] Activate with WP if possible
-[X] Lean on Usum for formal manners and guidance against saying anything that might leave us on the hook with the fey. Offer her a polite greeting by those terms.
-[X] STUNT: For but a barest of moments you hold Mab's gaze, your eyes showing a glimpse of coldness beyond the deepest reaches of winter, as your mind is safe behind the impervious walls of your power. Then you incline your head politely, greeting her, not as as a lesser, not as a subordinate (never a subordinate!), but as a youth greeting her elder worthy of respect and caution, Usum whispering in your ears the necessary words.
 
Yog said:
[X] Courtesy from a Devil
-[X] Activate IPM
-[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
—[X] Activate with WP if possible
-[X] Lean on Usum for formal manners and guidance against saying anything that might leave us on the hook with the fey. Offer her a polite greeting by those terms.
-[X] STUNT: For but a barest of moments you hold Mab's gaze, your eyes showing a glimpse of coldness beyond the deepest reaches of winter, as your mind is safe behind the impervious walls of your power. Then you incline your head politely, greeting her, not as as a lesser, not as a subordinate (never a subordinate!), but as a youth greeting her elder worthy of respect and caution, Usum whispering in your ears the necessary words.
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I put the WP expense on the wrong charm in the original vote. Meant to put it on IPM since it allows it instead of essence.

@the DragonBard you should probably fix that in your vote too; we can't actually use WP on the excellency, I added it to the wrong line by mistake.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
I put the WP expense on the wrong charm in the original vote. Meant to put it on IPM since it allows it instead of essence.

@the DragonBard you should probably fix that in your vote too; we can't actually use WP on the excellency, I added it to the wrong line by mistake.
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Corrected.

So, anyway, we now have:
1) The name to never conjure by for which I am fairly sure Kemmler would have gladly offered his right hand, firstborn and a hundred years of servitude besides.
2) Example of the Old Realm writing, which could be used for Crown search to look for other examples of this language. A great plothook.
3) Designs for a necrotech spirit essence gathering device.
4) Arawn as a spirit guide to Lydia, averting a lot of drama, but probably making dating awkward.

That's a lot of plothooks.
 
Goldfish said:
What do you think bowing your head means? It's basically a nod.

That's not bowing at the waist, genuflecting, kowtowing, or curtsying. It's a freaking nod.
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Bowing one's head is much more formal than merely a nod.

It can be a gesture between equals, if returned symmetrically. But let's be real.
Mab is never going to do that.

Which makes it a gesture of subservience.
 
Yog said:
-[X] STUNT: For but a barest of moments you hold Mab's gaze, your eyes showing a glimpse of coldness beyond the deepest reaches of winter, as your mind is safe behind the impervious walls of your power. Then you incline your head politely, greeting her, not as as a lesser, not as a subordinate (never a subordinate!), but as a youth greeting her elder worthy of respect and caution, Usum whispering in your ears the necessary words.
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Not sure I like this stunt, it reads as very petulant to me. Getting hung up on the pecking order instead of acknowledging it and moving on to working with it or up it is childish.
[X] Courtesy from a Devil v2
-[X] Activate IPM
—[X] Activate with WP if possible
-[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
-[X] Lean on Usum for formal manners and guidance against saying anything that might leave us on the hook with the fey. Offer her a polite greeting by those terms
-[X] Stunt: As you turn your attention towards Queen Mab, ruler of the wicked fey, something bigger and deeper than your heart beats once, then twice, with world shaking power.
-[X] As the inviolate temple of your mind draws closed its gates, your voice fills with subtle fire, dripping with a charming and poisonous grace.
-[X] With Usum's words echo in your mind, you draw breath to speak, even as the chill of the night seeps from your bones to taste the cold of winter in the air.

Might be a little much, but I'd prefer not to lock in an approach we might be warned against by Usum.
 
Yog said:
3) Designs for a necrotech spirit essence gathering devi
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Gonna point out that tool mostly took up imbued blood.
No essence.
LightLan said:
Bowing one's head is much more formal than merely a nod.
It can be a gesture between equals, if returned symmetrically. But let's be real.
Mab is never going to do that.
Which makes it a gesture of subservience.
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Strongly disagree. Its all in how you carry it.
Short of a kowtow or a prostration, thats much the same with a lot of greetings.
Molly could literally bow from the waist with her hat off if she had a hat, and if she has the presence, it comes off as a greeting.

And besides, Im interested in seeing how Mab reacts to it.
And how she greets Molly back.
 
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