Vote closed.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Ok. At this point I stop following your argument. It's incredibly internally inconsistent, even self-contradictory. On one hand you say that the facts don't matter, perceptions matter. On the other, you assume near perfect (but not perfect just enough to be warped against us) information proliferation in supernatural world. The world that doesn't have public news, and which is mired in secrets to its very core.
What do you think an average supernaturally aware (not necessarily supernatural themselves) person on the street knows? Where do you think they know it from?
From my perspective, the core of their knowledge would be survival. They would know about fae, and about vampires, or at least White Court, as they are the most prevalent. Their knowledge would focus on survival, because that's just how statistics and evolution works - those that don't have survival information don't survive. They would know that they are, in essence, a prey species. The levels of details would vary from person to person, but will most likely focus on how to avoid danger.
Our association with White Court is noticeable. We command several of them, including high ranked ones. We receive gifts from them, like the movie studio, the mortal wife of one of their senior members. Their youth are our servants. This alone is enough to perceive Molly herself as a threat. Add to that an extremely scary dragon and the band of ghouls, and Marcone just doesn't register. Like, at all.
I don't want to continue this debate, I don't think we are affecting each other, but to me this is a very strange perspective.
Why cannot they?
We probably have all kinds of stuff. I expect Molly's world to have cures or at least treatments for cancer - when one fourth of your population often has chronic cancer and/or radiation sickness (gurvel due to balefire), and suffered from this for their whole history, quality of life improvements, and treatments will be a priority for development. We also should have a lot of stuff that makes old age easier to bear - due to how the Wheel works, you have to die of old age to regain youth, and you probably don't want to spend years or decades in a decrepit state in constant pain. I also expect to see at least some fertility treatments in the courts that are more advanced than in real world, and probably genetic diseases treatments.
In regards to Dragonblooded, while after the initial vote it looked like you were right, by the end of the conversation, it turned out that sharing as much as possible was the precisely right thing to do. They already knew a lot of things, already negotiated with Odin, and by trying to deceive them we would have poisoned any future attempts to communicate.
- Location
- Germany
To be fair, our only official and visible interaction with the White Court as an entity (rather than a few strays) ended with us publicly decapitating two important people and a few guards died too.
We haven't been invented to their social gatherings since then, for some unknown reason.
We haven't been invented to their social gatherings since then, for some unknown reason.
Arc 15 Post 25: In Strange Springtime
New
In Strange Springtime
1st of March 2006 A.D.
The first day of March catches you out on the piers that arc towards Lake Michigan the arguments of seagulls and the buzz of engines mixing with the the voices of people perhaps a bit too enthusiastic about warmer weather. There's a joke about midwesterners and the getting back into shorts in there somewhere in there, but alas you aren't here to people watch, you're here to people-talk, specifically to one John Marcone, the sound of a car starting to slow as it draws near causes you to look back one eyebrow raised. Subconsciously you'd have expected some kind of big black car like... well like you drive, which probably says a whole bunch of interesting things that aren't the best to unpack here, not an admiral-blue Chrysler straight out of the 80s.
"Nice ride," you call to the driver whom you vaguely recall had helped out with the whole Gorfel debacle this spring before turning your attention to the man coming out of the backseat. Having already seen pictures of him, including some of his mugshots in the papers you are less struck by John Marcone than you might have been, though you have to admit he is striking, not so much the black hair just starting to grey or the five o'clock shadow or the eyes green as dollar bills, but the way it's all put together, the confidence with which he offers his hand.
"Ms Carpenter, good to see you in the flesh after hearing so much about you."
"I'd ask who from, if only to test just how you'd avoid answering, but alas we have more important things to talk about." With a smile you tip your head in the direction of the lake. "One of the major leyline nexuses in North America is out there you know, this city is important for reasons most of the people living here can't see, but it's even more important because of those people.If I can be blunt...?"
"Please," he motions as he walks alongside you with the easy smile of a man who's used to hearing others monologue. One might almost confuse him for the kind of high-powered CEO he's dressed at if it weren't for outline of a gun hidden in his jacket.
"I have no interest in subsidizing their misery, even if the alternative is worse mystery, but it need not be. The things you asked for my help in fighting do need to be fought, but it need not be done from a position of criminal enterprise. You know the players and the game, there's no need to be seated at the table to figure out when someone's pulling cards from under the table. What this city needs is policing..."
Marcone laughs and that's OK, you'd intentionally chosen the word to be provocative. People don't decide to upped their lives without provocation.
"Policing that reaches deeper than SI can, broader than the White Council can encompass. I won't deny I am impressed Mr Marcone, very few people have crossed wits and weapons with Nicodemus Archleone and lived to tell the tale. It seems a waste of your man Hendricks back there, of your entire organization to make things just a bit more shit," you drop the word with calculated venom before smiling, adding: "When you could make them better."
"Ah, there seems to be some confusion," the echoes of his earlier laugh deepen the lines on his face, casting them int a web of shadows. "When my business extends beyond the boundaries of the law it's not because I enjoy criminality for its own sake, it is like any other business a means to turn a profit. How do you imagine that policing Chicago would keep my organization together?" And me in tailored suits and luxury cars, he doesn't add, but it's in there as well.
You are not sure what the gross revenue of a criminal empire is, but you have little doubt that you could cover it. Unfortunately you are just as sure Marcone would refuse outright. He's asking for support in the name of mutual benefit not offering his vassalage, after all he hardly knows you.
What do you offer?
[] Your support to become a Freeholding Lord
[] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[] Local production of alchemical goods
-[] Exotic animals and plants
-[] Write in
[] Write in
OOC: Interdimensional smuggling and the raising of alien fauna on US soil is also illegal, but it's not the same kind of illegal as being a mob boss, that's why it's an option.
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And they also gave us a lot of stuff, and Thomas Raith works for us, which might or might not be known. Which is quite another point - from the street point of view, we are not dealing with Marcone. The likely perception is that Marcone came to us, and possibly sold us his soul or has otherwise bent the knee in some way. Which wouldn't reflect on us at all. We are too big and scary as is. Basically, this would be the same if Polpot was noticed to get supplies from Winter. It wouldn't reflect on Mab in any way. Mab is too big, and too powerful, and too scary. It would simply mean that Polpot sold something to winter.
- Location
- France
fought
broader
confusion
Fixed, thanks.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
You may want to use a different example. Mab doesn't have a reputation as someone who cares about humans.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] Your support to become a Freeholding Lord
-[X] And IDU empowerment to avoid being the token mortal clinging to the questionable safety provided by the Accords for those who choose to adhere to the rules. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
-[X] And IDU empowerment to avoid being the token mortal clinging to the questionable safety provided by the Accords for those who choose to adhere to the rules. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
[X] Write in
- [X] His and his employees' lives
We should not give him anything at all. We don't need him, his existence doesn't help us. We gain nothing whatever from empowering him. We don't need to bribe him to stop him being a criminal, we can just make him stop, if necessary by making him stop existing.
We've very politely offered him a route to survive, and now he wants to be bribed to accept it? No. If he doesn't recognise our good will for what it is, that's his problem.
We certainly shouldn't give him supernatural powers or increase his status.
- [X] His and his employees' lives
We should not give him anything at all. We don't need him, his existence doesn't help us. We gain nothing whatever from empowering him. We don't need to bribe him to stop him being a criminal, we can just make him stop, if necessary by making him stop existing.
We've very politely offered him a route to survive, and now he wants to be bribed to accept it? No. If he doesn't recognise our good will for what it is, that's his problem.
We certainly shouldn't give him supernatural powers or increase his status.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
[X] Your support to become a Freeholding Lord
-[X] And IDU empowerment to avoid being the token mortal clinging to the questionable safety provided by the Accords for those who choose to adhere to the rules. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
-[X] And IDU empowerment to avoid being the token mortal clinging to the questionable safety provided by the Accords for those who choose to adhere to the rules. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
I'll think of another example, but I think the point is relatively clear - in a deal with Marcone, from a supernatural perspective, Marcone is a lesser entity in all respects.
[X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
This benefits us both.
EDIT: Removed the more expansive plan.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Bronzetongue wasn't arguing from a supernatural perspective. In your vote can you specify that we are also offering Marcone IDU?
Edit: woah what happened to the expanded plan?
Maybe trying to argue this during breaks at work was a bad idea. Let's try this again.
Perception matters, but in relation to what people know and where they are coming from.
When we went to that white court party we announced ourselves as a representative of the Ordo and killed people for crossing us. That being the public point of the invitation and the narrative we pushed while there was part of the price Lara paid for our help.
People who know enough to be aware we were at a party like that would have to be aware of the reason we were there, because these facts are carried by the same rumor.
Even if they weren't, the blowback on us at this level is only part of the problem. Not trusting mobsters is, especially if they keep doing something that makes them untrustworthy.
The next part of the perception problem has everything to do with imperfect access to information on the part of various parties at play.
The mundane police already know who these guys are, there is a narrative in effect and a view from the mundane side which isn't going to disappear. This inherently means that any system you build off of the mob is by default a target of the mundane authorities. They do not know and cannot be told what has changed or why. These people are good at gathering information, so they will see increased activity from lifelong criminals but not what goal is being served. They are exceedingly unlikely to react to this by assuming everything is fine.
Then there are the variably aware factions like the Library and Daedalus. These people are plugged into law enforcement, but have more understanding of supernatural stuff.
They might not get it entirely, but the patterns of the mob's expansion wouldn't be subtle. Remember this is a mortal v mortal scenario. Marcone is not smarter than the rest of the world and he wants to push into existing criminal enterprise.
So yes I'm making the assumption that they will notice a massive criminal empire being born from a large but localized crimnal kingdom.
As to why they'll know we're involved? Because of the nature of what support means. Look at the new chapter. Marcone wants and needs bankable material or political support. If we funnel FCF products through him or literally sign our name to his ascension as a free holding lord the connection is not a hard one to draw.
If we tried something indirectly through money it'd make it easier because they can throw regular assets at tracking things.
These mechanisms would also make basic information available to anyone watching us. The red court tracked Micheal via traffic cameras, mobsters hunting supernaturals after we juice up the organization would be noticeable to any basic look at the players involved.
Especially because many of them do have exotic information gathering abilities.
The thing is, no one with power gives a shit about this. If we started pumping up the white court they would, but an unpleasant political affiliation they can ignore isn't the same as an active problem infringing on their space.
You shared everything the wrong way at the wrong time and we barely scraped something back together again by the end of it.
If we'd approached it the way I'd advocated for we would have shared the relevant information with the dragon bloods alone and had a chance to make a pitch before they accepted an offer from Odin.
In that very event you nearly gift wrapped an exaltation for Odin despite really wanting to do the opposite because you tend to be surprised by people having motives that aren't aligned with your goals.
Which you're doing here again. I mean, an ideologically rooted vassalage offer to Marcone in response to a business proposal?
I wonder why he doesn't want to give up his independence and criminal empire to be mafia themed Batman under the leadership of someone he doesn't know. Truly a mystery.
I sure hope his employees will be more civic minded.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
If we go with a matter of medicine, I have to wonder how many hundreds of billions of dollars that would amount to in the next decade or two.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Seems like the best idea. Includes IDU.
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
-[X] Explain Sanctuary, and what it represents, offer an excursion
-[X] Cut him in on trade from Sanctuary
--[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval after some trail testing on your part. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Offer non-monetary benefits, to himself and his organization as payment for keeping the population safe
--[X] Fate manipulation for profit and allies (Splendors: Illuminated Connection, Lucky Money or Fortuitous Reprieve), assuming his organization can provide materials for the crafting required
-[X] IDU empowerment to avoid being the mortal involved in the supernatural with no magical power of his own. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
--[X] Superhuman capabilities (IDU) to the few that can be trusted, so they can be safer when keeping others safe
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
-[X] Explain Sanctuary, and what it represents, offer an excursion
-[X] Cut him in on trade from Sanctuary
--[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval after some trail testing on your part. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Offer non-monetary benefits, to himself and his organization as payment for keeping the population safe
--[X] Fate manipulation for profit and allies (Splendors: Illuminated Connection, Lucky Money or Fortuitous Reprieve), assuming his organization can provide materials for the crafting required
-[X] IDU empowerment to avoid being the mortal involved in the supernatural with no magical power of his own. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
--[X] Superhuman capabilities (IDU) to the few that can be trusted, so they can be safer when keeping others safe
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I thought it would face a very bad backlash and don't feel like having an argument. Too tired and frustrated. Sorry about this.
Bronzetongue is arguing from a supernatural perspective:
Yes, I agree.
We announced it to White Court. White Court are predators of mortals. They talk to mortals, yes, and the information does proliferate, yes, but by the time the information we gave when visiting White Court and then murdering a lot of them, it will be very distorted.
I disagree. A mobster is not an existential ever-present threat. A vampire lives by eating people.
Are you talking about people on the street or political operators? Separate those arguments, please. From the perspective of politicians, White Council is worse than Marcone. From the perspective of civilians on the street, White Court and ghouls are worse than Marcone. In both cases, we associate and/or support and/or command things worse than Marcone already.
No? Like, by the end of the discussion, I pretty much consider myself validated and think that the approach was fully correct. The elder Dragonblooded already knew a lot of this, and Odin already knew we were involved before we approached the elder. The elder was basically testing our character through the whole discussion. We proved ourselves genuine and not deceitful and earned approval of the elder.
[X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
This might face backlash. Marcone doesn't want vassalage. He wants peer relationship and independence. Molly can take IDU back at any time.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
[X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I mean I know, but we don't have to press him on it. I want to make the offer at least. If he says no or he'll think about it then that's the end of that or we could choose to try selling him on it.
I'm rather interested in what his response would be. He may be more susceptible to it if we show him Sanctuary and he knows what he's dealing with.
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Nope, all the nopes and then some.
Hmmm.... you know, I have an idea:
[x] Offer him IDU... don't talk about the costs.
There, you want him in our pockets let's put him in our pocket with no recourse.
Just don't tell him the cost, easy peasy.
Yeah, the reaction is going to be interesting. Depending on factors we don't know, it might be anything from awe, to jealousy, to hatred. Might be worship even.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Problem, Marcone is asking how he is going to make money without crime. Just giving him IDU isn't going to do that.
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
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But at least the idea's out there to potentially build upon. I am about to go to sleep so don't have time to make a plan or even really think on it.