Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

As far as my extensive dive into E2 books demonstrated to me, this is wrong. The "exaltations were designed so it's impossible to guide them" is fanon. What is true, is that exaltations have specific requirements for their host souls and situations in which exaltation can happen. Those are very hard if not outright impossible to tamper with. But while operating within those parameters, at least according to canon books, with access to Lytek and/or specific tools, it's entirely possible to a) select specific individuals for specific exaltations, and exalt them immediately b) make it someone's destiny to exalt with a non-specific shard, c) exclude people in specific regions of space from exalting, d) exclude humans of specific lineages from exalting. If you want a detailed list of quotes, proofs and speculations of how this is compliant with lore, I'll PM you, as I have been asked to stop this discussion in the main thread.

Ok, that's a fair point, and one I haven't considered, but it would be the Fallen themselves mistaking us for something else, and they had a chance to really look at us, so I think there's at least a good chance they were able to identify the class of being that we are.
Exaltations have to be hard to guide since their designed to not be captured or stopped by their designers. Like thats a general conceit of the lore that when out and about the incarna could not just stop them. One thing lends into the other. Also you know said listed individuals are ages long dead or at least changed.
 
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The point I'm making isn't exactly scale so much as scope.
Nothing I've said precludes McCoy throwing around any amount of force, but there's a difference between pushing around a lot of energy and being able to change the rules about how it works.

The ascension rituals seem like good examples of the difference.

Those rituals were designed around exploiting the properties of specific spirits and conditions to allow a wizard craft a mantle. It's a mega project of ridiculous scale, but not one a mage would need to perform. Mages have avatars, they're already aspirants on the road to ascension over reality. They'd just put that same effort into walking the path before them instead.

Kemmler developed a process for constructing practical Dyson Spheres. If a mage drinks their milk and eats their veggies they grow up to be a star.
Both of those parties can fry people with trivial ease, but in the situations where the difference matters it really matters.
One:
Kumori in Dead Beat explicitly mentioned that her goal, or at least one of her goals, was to end Death.
Exchange with some poor sucker who can't protect themselves. Corpsetaker was in that old professor's body. I figure he swapped with his assistant, and then killed the old man's body with the girl's mind inside."
The hood nodded, conceding me the point. "But I have difficulty believing your story. Had the Corpsetaker taken the book from you, he would have killed you as well."
"Wasn't for lack of trying," I said, and gestured at my leg. "He was overconfident, and I was a little bit lucky. He got the book, but I got away."
She was silent for a moment and then said, her voice thoughtful, "You're telling me the truth."
"I'm bad at lying. Lies get all confusing. Can't keep them straight."
Kumori nodded. "Then let me make you this offer."
"Join or die?" I guessed.
She exhaled softly through her nose. "Hardly. Cowl has a certain amount of respect for you, but he believes you too raw to make some sort of alliance feasible."
"Ah," I said. "Then you'll probably go to the second offer I always get. Go away and you won't kill me."
"Something like that," Kumori said. "You have no real idea of what is going on here. Your ignorance is more dangerous than you know, and your continued involvement in this matter could cause disastrous consequences."
"What do you want me to do?" I asked.
"Withdraw from the field," she said.
"Or what?"
"Or you will regret it," she said. "That isn't a threat. Simply a fact. As I said, Cowl has a certain respect for you, but he will not be able to protect you or treat you gently should you continue to involve yourself. If you stand in his way, he will kill you. He would prefer it if you stood clear."
"Gosh. That's so altruistic of him." I shook my head. "If he kills me, he'll have my death curse to contend with."
"He has already contended with such curses," Kumori said. "Many times. I advise you to retire from the field."
"I can't do that," I said. "I know what you people are doing. I know about the Darkhallow. I know why you're doing it."
"And?"
"And I can't let that happen," I said. "Insurance in Chicago is expensive enough without adding in a petulant new deity tearing up the real estate."
"Our goals are not so different," Kumori said. "Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped."
"From what I've seen of old Cowl, he's a couple of french fries short of a Happy Meal too."
"And you would do what?" Kumori asked. "Prevent them from reaping the bounty of the Darkhallow? Take the power for yourself?"
"I want to make sure nobody takes it," I said. "I don't particularly care how I get it done."
"Truly?" she asked.
I nodded. "Now here's where I make you an offer."
She hesitated, clearly taken off guard. "Very well."
"Bail," I told her. "Leave Cowl and the Sociopath Squad to their squabbling. Give me what information I need to stop them."
"He'd kill me in a day," she said.
"No," I told her. "I'd take you to the White Council. I'd get you protection."
She stared at me from within her hood, utterly silent.
"See, Kumori, you're sort of a puzzle," I said. "Because you're working with these necromancers. In fact, I'm willing to bet you aren't bad at necromancy yourself. But you went out of your way to save someone's life the other night, and that just doesn't jive with that crowd."
"Doesn't it?" she said.
"No. They're killers. Good at it, but they're just killers. They wouldn't take a step out of their way to help someone else. But you went way the hell out of your way to help a stranger. It says that you aren't like them."
She was silent for a moment more. Then she said, "Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? And why I have joined him?"
"No."
"Because necromancy embraces the power of death, just as magic embraces the power of life. And as magic can be twisted and perverted to cruel and destructive ends, necromancy can be turned upon its nature as well. Death can be warded off, as I did for the wounded man that night. Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."
"Uh- huh," I said. "You got involved with the darkest and most corruptive, insanity-causing forces in the universe so that you could jump-start wounded bodies to life."
She moved her hand, a sudden, slashing motion. "No. No, you idiot. Don't you see the potential here? The possibility to end death."
"Uh. End death?"
"You will die," she said. "I will die. Cowl will die. Everyone now walking this tired old world knows but one solid, immutable fact. Their life will end. Yours. Mine. Everyone's."
"Yeah," I said. "That's why they call us 'mortals.' Because of the mortality."
"Why?" she asked.
"What?"
"Why?" she repeated. "Why must we die?"
"Because that's the way it is," I said.

"Why must that be the way it is?" she said. "Why must we all live with that pain of separation? With horrible grief? With rage and loss and sorrow and vengeance ruling the lives of every soul beneath the sky? What if we could change it?"
"Change it," I said, my skepticism clear in my voice. "Change death."
"Yes," she said.
"Just… poof. Make it go away."
"What if we could?" she said. "Can you imagine what it would mean? If mere age would not lay mankind low after his threescore and ten, how much better would the world be? Can you imagine if da Vinci had continued to live, to study, to paint, to invent? That the remarkable accomplishments of his lifetime could have continued through the centuries rather than dying in the dim past? Can you imagine going to see Beethoven in concert? Taking a theology class taught by Martin Luther? Attending a symposium hosted by Albert Einstein? Think, Dresden. It boggles the mind."

I thought about it.
And she was right.
Supposing for half a second that what she said might be possible, it would mean… Hell. It would change everything. There would be so much more time, and for everyone. Wizards lived for three or even four centuries, and to them even their own lives seemed short. What Kumori was talking about, the end of death itself, would give everyone else the same chance to better themselves that wizards enjoyed. It would, in a single stroke, create more parity between wizards and the rest of mankind than any single event in history.
But that was insane. Setting out to conquer death? People died. That was a fact of life.
But what if they didn't have to?
What if my mother hadn't died? Or my father? How different would my life be today?
Impossible. You couldn't just drive death away.
Could you?
Maybe that wasn't the point. Maybe this was one of those things in which the effort meant more than the outcome. I mean, if there was a chance, even a tiny, teeny chance that Kumori was right, and that the world could be so radically changed, wouldn't I be obliged to try? Even if I never reached the goal, never finished the quest, wouldn't the attempt to vanquish death itself be a worthy pursuit?
Wow.
This question was a big one. Way bigger than me.
I shook my head and told Kumori, "I don't know about that. What I know is that I've seen the fruits of that kind of path. I saw Cowl try to murder me when I got in his way. I've seen what Grevane and the Corpsetaker have done. I've heard about the suffering and misery Kemmler caused-and is still causing today, thanks to his stupid book.
"I don't know about something as big as trying to murder death. But I know that you can tell a tree from what kind of fruit falls off it. And the necromancy tree doesn't drop anything that isn't rotten."
"Ours is a calling," Kumori said, her voice flat. "A noble road."
"I might be willing to believe you if so much of that road wasn't paved in the corpses of innocents."
I saw her head shake slowly beneath the hood. "You sound like them. The Council. You do not understand."
"Or maybe I'm just not quite arrogant enough to start rearranging the universe on the assumption that I know better than God how long life should last. And there's a downside to what you're saying, too. How about trying to topple the regime of an immortal Napoleon, or Attila, or Chairman Mao? You could as easily preserve the monsters as the intellectual all-stars. It can be horribly abused, and that makes it dangerous."
I faced her down for a long and silent second. Then she let out a sigh and said, "I think we have exhausted the possibilities of this conversation."
"You sure?" I asked her. "The offer is still open. If you want to get out, I'll get the Council to protect you."
"Our offer is open as well. Stand aside, and no rancor will follow you."
"I can't," I said.
"Nor can I," she said. "Understand that I do not wish you any particular harm. But I will not hesitate to strike you down should you place yourself in our path."
I stared at her for a second. Then I said, "I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you and Cowl and Grevane and Corpsetaker, and your little drummers too. None of you are going to promote yourself to god-hood. No one is."
"I think you will die," she said, her tone even, without inflection.
"Maybe," I said. "But I'm going to stop you all before I go. Tell Cowl to get out of the way now, and I won't hunt him down after all of this is over. He can walk. You too."
She shook her head again and said, "I'm sorry we could not work something out."
"Yeah," I said.
She hesitated. Then she asked me, her voice soft and genuinely curious, "Why?"
"Because this is what I have to do," I said. "I'm sorry you aren't going to let me help you."
"We all act as we think we must," she said. "I will see you by and by, Dresden."
"Count on it," I said.
Kumori left without another word, gliding silently down the stairs and out of sight.
I sat there for a moment, aching and tired and more scared than I had sounded a minute before.
Then I got up, shoved my pain and my fear aside, and hobbled out to the Blue Beetle.
I had work to do.
So changing the rules about how it works is, in theory, within the reach of Dresdenverse mages.
Or at least, some of them think so.


Two:
Counterpoint: Voormas, fallen Euthanatos archmage and Grand Harvester of Souls, is a major MtA metaplot antagonist.
Whose goal is to kill Death. Who specifically did cook up an ascension ritual in Mage The Ascension; killing the Yama Queen and goddess Tou Mu, then devouring her whole, in order to wield a god's weapon.

Specifically because there were things that an archmage could not do while being just an archmage.

[] Write in suggestions for next turn actions
Craft Options
-Cars
-Warden swords for baby wardens
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-The Archive's splendors

Followup on the Airport Fellowship people
Figuring out how to close the portal in South America
Followup on the attacks on the Catholic Church's interests that Father Forthill mentioned
Meeting Marcone
Taking the Dogs to Sanctuary for the first time
Mendoza security

That Bone Might Whisper​
26st of February 2007 A.D.
COMMENTARY
Kingfisher. Thats a name we havent heard before. Cant think of any relevant mythological associations.*checks*
QM says its a ship, so fair enough.*checks* ~2800 tons gross tonnage, built in 1982, scrapped in 2018.

The prize could be an Exaltation. I think that is extremely unlikely.
It could also be the Eye of Balor; I've previously done posts about why its plausible that the thing that fell from the sky into the sea is the primordial McGuffin that played such a central role in Battle Grounds.

The Eye of Balor is a superweapon that anyone can learn how to use, at least in theory.
Every supernatural nation in the series was after it in canon. Which makes it a way more plausible target for bad guys to try for than a Celestial Exaltation, which is explicitly something you dont have any control over.

Thats my working guess, at least.
Huh? Is this about the Abyssal shard Tiffany told us was probably in the ocean that the one in Vegas is connected to?
The Abyssal shard is in the Pacific. Allegedly.
While the Solar shard entangled with it is temporally displaced by several thousand years.

This is the comet shard that fell into northern waters, the one with all the Fae/Raksha associations.
 
Exaltations have to be hard to guide since their designed to not be captured or stopped by their designers. Like thats a general conceit of the lore that when out and about the incarna could not just stop them. One thing lends into the other. Also you know said listed individuals are ages long dead or at least changed.
As far as I can ascertain from books, the actual precautions in place were: a) you cannot take an exaltation back, and b) the exalt is not compelled to do anything their patron asks them to.

The question of Incarna involvement in Primordial War is an open one, because there should have been nothing stopping Primordials from ordering them to hunt down and exterminate exalts as they appeared.
 
VOTE
[X] Sneak in
[X] Tell them their guess was wrong, the entity wasn't trying to cause a diplomatic incident, it was wroking against Monoc Securities who are themselves seeking an ancient magical treasure. Where poking Gard comes in you are not yet sure



RATIONALE
If Von Triers arranges a cover for Molly to infiltrate a top secret NSA facility, thats a significant favor.
Such things are not free, and she will expect reciprocity of some sort in the future.
I would pass. There's no need to run up the credit card here.

And they might find it useful to be able to claim ignorance.

Besides, we dont need it.
Molly Prime has Anonymity Through Propriety, to make people not notice her.
She also has BMI, so that she can adopt the form of someone else and not be recognized on subsequent video footage either.

Dancer in Glass Shadows/Isha has Plug and Play, which allows her to use a cellphone, to hack anything regardless of ports, operating systems or wireless connectivity. Like computers, electronic door locks, and security feeds.
And she has Apecraft's Blessings, which allow her to reduce DCs for tasks with human tools, like hacking.

Sophia has Paint With Flesh, to shapeshift the (humanoid)appearance of herself and others.
She has Thousand Forms, which allows her to turn into animal forms as small as a small bird.
And she also has Blur of the Milky Eye, which penalizes enemy Perception rolls for detection. Essentially invisibility.

There's no need to get the Library involved. Molly and two clones handle it in an afternoon.



As for the other vote? I favor telling the Library a brief precis, no specifics. Same principle. They played ball with us, we play ball with them.And arguably, they have need to know if someone is trying to use US govt resources against an old Norse god so they can try to identify other attempts.

Also, dont engage in unnecessary deception when other people might be able to prove otherwise; the bad guys certainly know whats up, and they were certainly working with someone in the US govt.
We dont need them using our witholding information to question our credibility.

Since the bad guys already know what Odin/Monoc Securities is up to, there is reduced risk about telling Von Triers about it anyway.
 
If Von Triers arranges a cover for Molly to infiltrate a top secret NSA facility, thats a significant favor.
Such things are not free, and she will expect reciprocity of some sort in the future.
She offered it herself while pointing out that we can probably manage without it. Also we are working against enemies of the U.S. gov here free of charge. When it comes to stuff like this I think you tend to exaggerate.
 
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What do you make of Odin's interlude on the subject? Specifically the bit at the end.
My impression is that there can, and probably is, more than one McGuffin under the sea.
Its a popular place to dump shit.
And Odin is pretty clearly working on incomplete information. Easy to conflate one for the other.

The Jade Prison in Exalted 2E was dumped on the sea floor. In ExWoD it was in the Himalayas.
So we cant really draw firm conclusions.

My opinion?
This depends on where the Kingfisher is; if its in the North Sea-Arctic-Baltic Sea area? Its after the comet.
If its in the Pacific, its after the Abyssal shard thats linked to the Egyptian Solar shard.

Im betting its in the Arctic.

I frankly suspect that the guy whose part-time Mantle is Kris Kringle has a lot more caution around Celestial Exaltations than most people believe.
He certainly will have noted how Mab kept Usum buried instead of trying to use it.
She offered it herself while pointing out that we can probably manage without it. Also we are working against enemies of the U.S. gov here free of charge. When it comes to stuff like this I think you tend to exaggerate.
Yes she offered it. That doesnt make it free.

Access to a top secret US intelligence site to browse at our leisure isnt the sort of thing thats offered free of charge; abbetting our attempts to extract information from it comes with implicit expectations, because thats a big enough favor to get the entire agency in trouble if they are connected to it.


No we are not working against enemies of the US govt.
There's nothing here that so far materially impacts the interests of the US govt to our knowledge, or theirs. Certainly not to the degree of abetting a foreign power to access US intelligence databases.
 
Access to a top secret US intelligence site to browse at our leisure isnt the sort of thing thats offered free of charge; abbetting our attempts to extract information from it comes with implicit expectations, because thats a big enough favor to get the entire agency in trouble if they are connected to it.
We already have access to that and they know it. It's why we were able to tell them of those in their systems along with everything they should know we are capable of because we already did a first contact with the Five Courts which Molly is Queen of.

No we are not working against enemies of the US govt.
There's nothing here that so far materially impacts the interests of the US govt to our knowledge, or theirs. Certainly not to the degree of abetting a foreign power to access US intelligence databases.
What are taking about? EvilBob was in their servers. There could be more things of that nature and he escaped. That's who we are after. How does someone who went through high security government assets and info who is still at large not count as an enemy? This is effectively us doing a favor to them and the Library facilitating it.
 
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We already have access to that and they know it. It's why we were able to tell them of those in their systems along with everything they should know we are capable of because we already did a first contact with the Five Courts which Molly is Queen of.
No we dont.
They think(with good reason) that we can get access to some of their servers.
Not that we are already in there.

Evil Bob tried to work through US government servers to invade other people's systems. Kinda like a VPN
"Turns out Anti-Bob was using a Black Court Fledgling as a relay to get into government servers and play ghost in the machine. He's been playing with Gard for some time and we're not sure why, other than him being a petty asshole. The best guess we have is that he's been stalking a bunch of people on Uncle Sam's dime, testing their protections and Gard was just the first one to get the right kind of help."
We didnt meet him IN government servers, we met him outside them.

Besides, the good stuff is not connected to the Internet.
And never is.
Thats why we are actually talking about visiting in meatspace.
What are taking about? EvilBob was in their servers. There could be more things of that nature and he escaped. That's who we are after. How does someone who went through high security government assets and info who is still at large not count as an enemy? This is effectively us doing a favor to them and the Library facilitating it.
Evil Bob was using their resources, not targetting them. Nothing he did hurt them either.

We arent hunting Evil Bob on behalf of the US govt; we wont turn him over to them if we catch him.
Their involvement on the behalf of the US govt ended when they got the Blampire and plugged the holes that allowed it and Bob to use US govt computers as a knockoff version of Nord VPN.

This is them offering us a favor. Not the other way around.
And a very big favor at that from their PoV, since they would basically be letting us rummage through top-secret US computers databases with ID papers that the Library provided.

We could clone the entire thing and walk off with uncounted US secrets, and they would have no way of knowing. If for any reason Molly is outed while doing this, and their involvement comes to light, the Library gets gutted by the US govt and its rivals and enemies. They are risking a lot more than you acknowledge on this.

RL nationstates dont give longterm allies that kind of access.
This would be a BIG Favor.
 
Evil Bob was using their resources, not targetting them. Nothing he did hurt them either.
If I, a Russian citizen, hack NSA servers with top secret information in order to get information against, say, North Korea, I would absolutely be considered to have enacted an attack against USA. this logic is ridiculous.

In real world, the act would have made Evil Bob oneof the top most wanted criminals, and we, as an invited specialist, would be expected to get paid a lot to help apprehend or kill him.
 
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No we dont.
They think(with good reason) that we can get access to some of their servers.
Not that we are already in there.
Let me rephrase. They know that we could likely very easily get access to such things due to our first contact and what was revealed of the Five Court's technology then. They know we have magic AI and that the more advanced technology of that world is subservient to Molly rather than several different nations fighting amongst themselves.

We didnt meet him IN government servers, we met him outside them
How does this work exactly? I don't think you read that right. EvilBob was using U.S. satellites to stalk people. Do you not need privileged access to manage that?

Edit: We know this because of what our clone discovered with Gard.


Evil Bob was using their resources, not targetting them. Nothing he did hurt them either.
I'm sorry but this has to be the most mind boggling argument I've ever seen from you.

EvilBob and co removed one of the walls of the National Security Agency headquarters, put a corpse in there, may have done something to the contractor's minds to make them forget, and used it to 'hack' into their systems and access privileged information and satellites. When discovered he was pulled out by an unknown party. They could have access to other government assets in/through other locations or use whatever methods they did in the instance with the NSA building to do so again for different more problematic reasons.

But your saying that moving against them does not constitute as us combating an enemy of the Government and it's assets free of charge.

How does that work?

Also this-
If I, a Russian citizen, hack NSA servers with top secret information in order to get information against, say, North Korea, I would absolutely be considered to have enacted an attack against USA. this logic is ridiculous.

In real world, the act would have made Evil Bob oneof the top most wanted criminals, and we, as an invited specialist, would be expected to get paid a lot to help apprehend or kill him.
 
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My impression is that there can, and probably is, more than one McGuffin under the sea.
Its a popular place to dump shit.
Can't blame people too much for that one. For thousands of years, it was the place to lose anything you didn't want found. Just sail far out to see and drop whatever you wanted to be rid of overboard, preferably weighed down, and you and your descendants could be assured it was probably going to stay down there. Then we had to go and screw that up, too.

[X] uju32
 
Kumori in Dead Beat explicitly mentioned that her goal, or at least one of her goals, was to end Death.
Kimori is a stark raving madwoman high on the power of evil magic. She is not a trustworthy or objective source on what can actually be accomplished.

Even if she was making everyone into bound ghosts or whatever would arguably satisfy her desires without changing the world so much as the people.

I don't see how you can keep harping on Harry being an unreliable source but then blithely accept the words of a megalomaniac warlock ranting about the topic that drover her to madness.

Counterpoint: Voormas, fallen Euthanatos archmage and Grand Harvester of Souls, is a major MtA metaplot antagonist.
Whose goal is to kill Death. Who specifically did cook up an ascension ritual in Mage The Ascension; killing the Yama Queen and goddess Tou Mu, then devouring her whole, in order to wield a god's weapon.

Specifically because there were things that an archmage could not do while being just an archmage
He did that because he either didn't know or wasn't able to complete the last steps of ascension. Probably because the Exarchs were still blocking people from it.

In any case, being incredibly powerful doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want whenever they want to.

Faced with a choice between winning the Ascension War to become the new god of his reality in full or cheating with steroids so he could become something else capable of pursuing his goals on a shorter timeframe.
 
Let me rephrase. They know that we could likely very easily get access to such things due to our first contact and what was revealed of the Five Court's technology then. They know we have magic AI and that the more advanced technology of that world is subservient to Molly rather than several different nations fighting amongst themselves.
It was an explicit plot point back during the Boston affair that they didnt know that Molly had AI support and cyberdevils and hacking, and that was why we called the Fed vice-chair.
Word of QM:
She has talked to you under the effects of your full social suit of buffs, she knows you have some way to turn that 10 into at least a 9, that is that you can do the unreasonably hard and that you are an inhumanly good social operator (10 dice+). Also she does not know about your hacking so her risk assessment on taking time to brief the guy at the Federal Reserve is even more bleak than Molly's own.
They know we have advanced tech, multiple species, are great at social, and suspect we are better at a lot of things.
They know very little about our hard capabilities, because we have been good at information control thus far.
The only people who have had a good look are the wizards.

Hell, the very fact that we werent able to simply scrub everything that Basilisk did in Boston would lead them to believe that there are real and tangible limits to Molly's ability to penetrate and compromise computer systems.
Boston was interrogation, after all.

Its like with Molly asking them to get legal papers for the Mendozas to enter the US; if she'd pwnd all major US computer systems, she wouldnt ask.


How does this work exactly? I don't think you read that right. EvilBob was using U.S. satellites to stalk people. Do you not need privileged access to manage that?
Edit: We know this because of what our clone discovered with Gard.
1)Evil Bob was apparently stalking multiple people, not just Gard. And there are multiple modalities.
Hacking your computers. Your security cameras. Your bank accounts. Your phone records. Your internet connection. Your Internet shopping accounts. Your social media. Thats all stalking shit.


2)Evil Bob was using either spy planes or satellite surveillance to map Gard's wards according to Sophia.
This was in collaboration with fine thralls being used to probe the area.
The implication being that he has meatspace collaborators, and was able to fake work orders for aerial overflights of some sort in time with the weather.

US military satellites dont spy on US metro areas. Thats not their tasking. Nor are they responsive to the weather. Furthermore, satellites have limited fuel, and their fuel determines their lifespan; you cannot reposition a satellite to spy on the Chicago metro area without drawing the attention of entire tiers of US oversight and multiple foreign agencies literally dedicated to tracking US milsat activity.

Much easier to get aerial overflights. Hell, you can even do that without government involvement, by renting a private plane for regular overflights with a high-resolution camera at ten to thirty thousand feet.

Besides, from what I remember from my days reading techno thrillers, there is a meatspace interface between surveillance satellites and any new programmed instructions into their computers.
No military satellites is connected to the Internet, or to external networks.

Putting Evil Bob in the computers wouldnt have been enough.


I'm sorry but this has to be the most mind boggling argument I've ever seen from you.

EvilBob and co removed one of the walls of the National Security Agency headquarters, put a corpse in there, may have done something to the contractor's minds to make them forget, and used it to 'hack' into their systems and access privileged information and satellites. When discovered he was pulled out by an unknown party. They could have access to other government assets in/through other locations or use whatever methods they did in the instance with the NSA building to do so again for different more problematic reasons.

But your saying that moving against them does not constitute as us combating an enemy of the Government and it's assets free of charge.

How does that work?
Fact check, I went back and it was an "office in DC" that the corpse was found in not Natsec. Point still stands though.
1)The implication has been more along the lines of EvilBob having meatspace collaborators than that he did any of this alone.
It wouldnt have been possible to use contractors to wall in a Black Court vampire; his co-conspirators did that.
Those civilians who kept "stumbling" into Gard's wards were also whammied by someone.

=======
2)My understanding has been that Evil Bob has been using govt computers like reallife hackers use a botnet, allowing them to obscure who or what is coordinating an intrusion campaign.

For example, if Im a hacker in South Korea, I can control a network of infected devices(computers, routers, webcams etc) in South Africa, Germany and Chile, and use them to hack or otherwise attack a system in the UK. To the victim in the UK, the attacks look like they are coming from SA, Ger and Chile, instead of South Korea.

And its much harder to trace it back to the original perp
Same principle. Evil Bob was in South Korea a Blampire, controlling infected devices in Germany US federal network to attack a system in the UK conduct a campaign against Gard.

If IRIS and the cyberdevils werent so supernaturally good, we wouldnt have known about Evil Bob either.


======
2) Let me try and explain this using RL examples.

When the Russian Federation sent Sergey Cherkasov under a Brazillian passport as a spy in the US and in the Netherlands, they had to break Brazillian ID systems and get into records and maybe computers in order to build him a legend.
Dude actually got admission to and studied at John Hopkins and Trinity College.

They are on Brazil's shitlist, but they did not attack Brazil.
Thats a confrontation between Russia and the US/Netherlands; Brazil's interests are not involved in getting in the middle of that.


When the Israelis used forged Australian and European passports to murder Hamas agent Mahmoud Al-Mahbouh in Dubai?
Thats a clash between the Israelis and Hamas/Iran; the Aussie and European govts whose resources the Israelis stole to get at their target are not involved, its not an attack on them.


When an unknown nationstate blew up the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany?
It wasnt an attack on Denmark or Sweden, despite it happening inside their claimed EEZs.
Neither country is even investigating.

When Chinese state-sponsored hackers infect Vietnamese systems with Mirai as part of their subverted botnet to engage in cyberespionage against the US?
Its not an attack on Vietnam either, and the Vietnamese dont get between the US and China.



When Evil Bob steals uses US government assets and resources to spy on a Monoc operative, they didnt attack the US.
He and his backers are probably on Uncle Sam's shitlist(assuming its not another US govt agency playing shadow games and cutting backroom deals like in the Cold War), but its a confrontation between Team Evil Bob and Team Monoc.

Team Library of Congress' interests stop at cutting EvilBob off and preventing him getting back in. Which has been done.
Not in hunting him down; that's Team Monoc's business.
Right now, they are offering us a favor, one that they expect will be repaid in the future.


Note that we dont know who his backers and facilitators are.
Its entirely possible that his faction did a deal and was working with another US government agency. Those people who have some knowledge of the Cold War and the origins of the drug trade wont be surprised.



Furthermore, let me remind you: Many people wont even share computers, or give other people access to guest accounts on their hardware for fear of them poking around and finding their porn stash or bank account passwords or private notes.
This is orders of magnitude beyond that.

This is giving someone else access to (some of)Uncle Sam's porn stashes, and account information.

Computer security experts harp on the importance of denying physical access to secure hardware, and to assume that if someone else has physical access the hardware is compromised. Possibly irreparably.
And the Library are offering to help us get access to secure physical hardware of the nation they are sworn to protect.

They have no reliable way of knowing if Molly can compromise the physical hardware in perpetuity so it keeps reporting to her, or copy off all the data in every computer in this center.
This is a Very Big Favor.
 
2)My understanding has been that Evil Bob has been using govt computers like reallife hackers use a botnet
And yet you assert this would-be considered an attack on the government? What? Like, seriously, what the hell?

When the Russian Federation sent Sergey Cherkasov under a Brazillian passport as a spy in the US and in the Netherlands, they had to break Brazillian ID systems and get into records and maybe computers in order to build him a legend.
Dude actually got admission to and studied at John Hopkins and Trinity College.

They are on Brazil's shitlist, but they did not attack Brazil.
Thats a confrontation between Russia and the US/Netherlands; Brazil's interests are not involved in getting in the middle of that.


When the Israelis used forged Australian and European passports to murder Hamas agent Mahmoud Al-Mahbouh in Dubai?
Thats a clash between the Israelis and Hamas/Iran; the Aussie and European govts whose resources the Israelis stole to get at their target are not involved, its not an attack on them.


When an unknown nationstate blew up the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany?
It wasnt an attack on Denmark or Sweden, despite it happening inside their claimed EEZs.
Neither country is even investigating.

When Chinese state-sponsored hackers infect Vietnamese systems with Mirai as part of their subverted botnet to engage in cyberespionage against the US?
Its not an attack on Vietnam either, and the Vietnamese dont get between the US and China.
All of this is factually and logically wrong. Ridiculously so. 1. Yes, hacking foreign government databases is considered an attack, as is using their resources without their consent. 2. Denmark, Sweden and Germany all ran their own separate investigations.
 
Kimori is a stark raving madwoman high on the power of evil magic. She is not a trustworthy or objective source on what can actually be accomplished.

Even if she was making everyone into bound ghosts or whatever would arguably satisfy her desires without changing the world so much as the people.

I don't see how you can keep harping on Harry being an unreliable source but then blithely accept the words of a megalomaniac warlock ranting about the topic that drover her to madness.
Kumori isnt stark raving mad. Thats Corpsetaker.
If she's insane, which is something we dont actually know yet, its a much quieter insanity. One that wasnt evident to Dresden at first hand. Or to the Shadow in his head at the time.

She might just be deluded. Wont be the first time.
Or she might be right.

He did that because he either didn't know or wasn't able to complete the last steps of ascension. Probably because the Exarchs were still blocking people from it.

In any case, being incredibly powerful doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want whenever they want to.

Faced with a choice between winning the Ascension War to become the new god of his reality in full or cheating with steroids so he could become something else capable of pursuing his goals on a shorter timeframe.
Exarchs do not exist in oWoD Mage to the best of my knowledge.
They are from Mage The Awakening(nWoD), which is a different gameline from Mage The Ascension(oWoD).
At least, thats my recollection.

And Voormas was Enlightenment 7 when he fell, and Enlightenment 9 in the endgame scenarios
So neither of those appear to be a motivating factor.
 
Kumori isnt stark raving mad. Thats Corpsetaker.
If she's insane, which is something we dont actually know yet, its a much quieter insanity. One that wasnt evident to Dresden at first hand. Or to the Shadow in his head at the time.

She might just be deluded. Wont be the first time.
Or she might be right.
Unless you are positing that Lawbreaking does not cause insanity, she is insane because she is a long practicing established warlock.
 
Those are not Molly's past lives. One of them sas Gilgamesh's midwife, and likely designer /maker.
Angels are older than the current iteration of linear time, but we don't know by how much.

The more times we see the plotline of "exaltation gets freed then goes back to sleep" the less believable it is. I'm biased towards thinking at least some of those names could be from before this age.


My guess is that the Tower of Babel happened. The mythological timing is close enough. A reality-wide mindwipe about the subject. It's not like that os impossible to achieve
if the white god did that why would he allow them free again? Especially in the hands of people like the Yama Kings.

The fact that Uriel only sort of knew what he was getting into but was allowed into go ahead anyway doesn't support the idea that Heaven was that desperate to suppress them.

Kumori isnt stark raving mad. Thats Corpsetaker.
If she's insane, which is something we dont actually know yet, its a much quieter insanity. One that wasnt evident to Dresden at first hand. Or to the Shadow in his head at the time.

She might just be deluded. Wont be the first time.
Or she might be right.
All warlocks are broken inside, and the more they practice black magic the worse they get in whatever way they personally fell.

There's no particular reason to believe she was right to believe she could do what she was trying to do. If you want to use her as evidence that something is possible then more than her own testimony is needed.
Exarchs do not exist in oWoD Mage to the best of my knowledge.
They are from Mage The Awakening(nWoD), which is a different gameline from Mage The Ascension(oWoD).
At least, thats my recollection.

And Voormas was Enlightenment 7 when he fell, and Enlightenment 9 in the endgame scenarios
So neither of those appear to be a motivating factor.
Arete 10 is god mode and the end of the ascension war, where you get to reprogram reality. The last dot is where you stop having mechanics and start controlling the narrative.

He also still had to struggle against everyone else with competing visions. To do what he wanted the "natural" mage way he'd have had to hit 10 before anyone else then fist fight the consensus and every other mage on the planet who chose to object.

The whole point of the ascension war is to be able to reshape reality in your image.
 
The question of Incarna involvement in Primordial War is an open one, because there should have been nothing stopping Primordials from ordering them to hunt down and exterminate exalts as they appeared.
For Sol and Luna the reason they couldn't be ordered to do that is because despite the Geas they were Essence 10 beings with perfect defenses and God Essence pools they could just refuse unacceptable orders. The curse woven into their creation prevented them from striking the primordials themselves but didn't actually neuter their strength in any particular way. The maidens of Fate on the other hand are possibly an emergent property of creation itself and conspicuously the same Geas that Sol and Luna have is unmentioned in their write up while also possessing perfect defenses of their own.
Exalted 2E - Glories of the Most High - The Unconquered Sun Pg.12 said:
Aegis of Unconquered Might (Transferable):
The Unconquered Sun largely transcends injury, with the natural listed soak and total immunity to all negative effects from hostile environmental conditions and hazards. The bearer of his shield applies a -5 cover penalty to all expected attacks and gains the soak and immunities listed here (in addition to the Unconquered Sun, if he is not the bearer). Temperance: The bearer of the shield perfectly resists all damage as a permanent enhancement and cannot be slain, physically injured or deleteriously altered by any effect, no matter how powerful it is. This perfection of being also treats all mental influence that seeks to make him betray his Motivation as an unacceptable order.
Exalted 2E - Glories of the Most High - Luna Pg.10 said:
Silver Lady's Prerogative: Luna can reflexively pay five motes of Essence and one point of Willpower to instantly rid herself of any single undesired mental influence effect
She has 250 essence and 20 Willpower
Exalted 2E - Glories of the Most High - The Maidens of Destiny Pg.10 said:
Samsara's Inviolate and Subtle Hand:
The Maidens" Charms are virtually undetectable unless the keepers of fate wish otherwise, even to Essence-based perception. If a Charm contests this subtlety, the Maidens apply a flat 20 successes in the roll-off to hide their work. The Maidens also treat all mental influence that would make them betray their Motivation as an unacceptable order and cannot knowingly act against their Motivation of their own free will. This defense also applies retroactively to instantly shatter any ongoing externally imposed mental influence in the moment it comes into conflict with their Motivation.
 
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Angels are older than the current iteration of linear time, but we don't know by how much.

The more times we see the plotline of "exaltation gets freed then goes back to sleep" the less believable it is. I'm biased towards thinking at least some of those names could be from before this age.
How Ages seem to be partitioned in relationship to linear time seems to be wonky. Remember, DragonBlooded trace their direct blood ancestry to the Age of Legends. And yet we know for a fact that the modern iteration of Earth was created in this Age.
if the white god did that why would he allow them free again? Especially in the hands of people like the Yama Kings.

The fact that Uriel only sort of knew what he was getting into but was allowed into go ahead anyway doesn't support the idea that Heaven was that desperate to suppress them.
Depending on how the Tower of Babel story got distorted, it's note necessarily White God that enacted mass memory wipe.
For Sol and Luna the reason they couldn't be ordered to do that is because despite the Geas they were Essence 10 beings with perfect defenses and God Essence pools they could just refuse unacceptable orders. The curse woven into their creation prevented them from striking the primordials themselves but didn't actually neuter their strength in any particular way. The maidens of Fate on the other hand are possibly an emergent property of creation itself and conspicuously the same Geas that Sol and Luna have is unmentioned in their write up while also possessing perfect defenses of their own.
And yet the worry that they would be ordered to order Exalted to stand down, was real. Very interesting and insightful thought about Maidens. Thank you.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 3, 2024 at 11:08 AM, finished with 74 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Plan: The One Piece Is Real
    -[X][Stunt] You guys were a little off the mark. Whomever infiltrated government systems aimed to sabotage Odin through Monoc Securities to disrupt his operations. He's after something that they want but what that is exactly I cannot say. As for the servers, I believe it would be less of a hassle if I went openly under a false guise.
    -[X] Go openly, let Von Trier make you a paper trail for the security clearance needed.
    --[X] Use BMI to change your hair to brown and give your face minor alterations so as not to be recognized as Molly and make your way to the NSA building with water travel
    ---[X] Introduce yourself using the false persona Von Trier and you came up with and make your way to the servers
    ----[X] Crown Question- Focus Servers: What other locations have been infiltrated by the party responsible for the compromising of these severs
    -[X] After hanging up the phone you do some quick searching with Clippy and get a picture of the Kingfisher
    --[X] Crown Question- Focus Kingfisher picture: What prize older and brighter than the stars above does Odin intend to retrieve with this vessel
    ---[X] Follow up Crown Question- Focus Recording of first conversation with Odin: What is the precise location of (whatever the previous Crown Question reveals) that Odin is after
    [X] Sneak in
    [X] Tell them their guess was wrong, the entity wasn't trying to cause a diplomatic incident, it was wroking against Monoc Securities who are themselves seeking an ancient magical treasure. Where poking Gard comes in you are not yet sure
    [x] Go openly
    -[x][Stunt] "So why should we listen to some girl who looks like she is barely out of highschool?" "Because my password isn't passwordswordfish. Really I had expected better of the NASA".
 
They know we have advanced tech, multiple species, are great at social, and suspect we are better at a lot of things.
They know very little about our hard capabilities, because we have been good at information control thus far.
The only people who have had a good look are the wizards.
Yeah, I went back and all of it was kept vague with 'fade to black'.
As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident
Included in this letter is all information they have shared about themselves and their war-fighting capabilities under the supreme executive command of Ms Carpenter.
DP evidently said that Von wasn't aware of our hacking but it does not make much sense that the implication wouldn't be made readily apparent.

Hell, the very fact that we werent able to simply scrub everything that Basilisk did in Boston would lead them to believe that there are real and tangible limits to Molly's ability to penetrate and compromise computer systems.
I'm not following. Just because we didn't doesn't mean we couldn't have. We didn't stop the attack on the economy because those emails were already sent out.

Its like with Molly asking them to get legal papers for the Mendozas to enter the US; if she'd pwnd all major US computer systems, she wouldnt ask.
Or, that was us deciding to go about it legally instead of using our own means. I think your biased here because your aware of what we currently have access to.

1)Evil Bob was apparently stalking multiple people, not just Gard. And there are multiple modalities.
Hacking your computers. Your security cameras. Your bank accounts. Your phone records. Your internet connection. Your Internet shopping accounts. Your social media. Thats all stalking shit.
Sure.

The implication being that he has meatspace collaborators, and was able to fake work orders for aerial overflights of some sort in time with the weather
That is a sensible prediction. Though the fact that Molly jumped to the US gov here combined with what we learned with of what EvilBob was doing with the NSA makes me think that this isn't actually the case. One doesn't exclude the other either.
"Spy plane or satellite, someone's trying to build a model of your warding schema from on high, very high indeed. So new question, which branch of the US government would be interested enough in your defenses that they would risk poking you like that?"


1)The implication has been more along the lines of EvilBob having meatspace collaborators than that he did any of this alone.
It wouldnt have been possible to use contractors to wall in a Black Court vampire; his co-conspirators did that.
Those civilians who kept "stumbling" into Gard's wards were also whammied by someone.
Yes, I know. That's why I said EvilBob and co. "Co" is a common abbreviation for company.

2)My understanding has been that Evil Bob has been using govt computers like reallife hackers use a botnet, allowing them to obscure who or what is coordinating an intrusion campaign
That is an attack on the governments assets. This is like a common sense thing.

EvilBob and co have demonstrated the ability, and willingness to infiltrate government systems which you need privileged access and clearance for. He's still at large and can do so again, may already be doing so right now even. He did this to access gov systems, and stalk American citizen(s) (assuming Gard is one) on American soil. On what planet does that not instantly get you marked off as a proven credible threat to info security who is still at large?

Realistically, how else is the government meant to classify this unknown party in documentation and what stance would they have if encountering this party in the future? They clearly aren't allies and they clearly aren't a neutral party either.

You can't hack government databases and use their resources unlawfully and not have it be considered an attack. That's impossible. That isn't how that works at all. How the government chooses to respond is irrelevant to that reality.
Also this-
 
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