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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Degorium said:
That literally says most trusted By the white council, not highest rank. By that reasoning, Shaw could have been the leader of the conspiracy.
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It specifically points out the special relationship between Peabody and Ashraaaf.
Up to and including how his affiliation is hidden using the same techniques as Vito Malvora's are.
Nobody else is deep enough in the Hollow Man's employ to require those kinds of concealment techniqus.

Degorium said:
They are literally the people that let the nickelhead in. They've already agreed to hand over their lives and souls to Lydia, you think a bit of information is a bridge too far really
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It said the traitors let Namshiel in.
It doesnt say who.
Peabody can just as easily have had any thrall do so, and it would still be him doing it.


They agreed to surrender in exchange for Lydia playing Charon to their souls.
They made no other bargain.
And they probably dont want to do anything that will draw additional heat on them from their erstwhile all(ies).

Think in terms of surrendering soldiers, or surrendering mobsters.
An agreement to lay down arms is not an agreement to turn into a cooperating informant.
 
DragonParadox said:
Samuel Peabody again, this time accompanied by a vision of a mild-mannered bespectacled balding fellow with a salt and pepper, save for the fact that his eyes behind those spectacles are dead, a corpse-gaze looking out of a living face unseen by all, even the wisest. Behind those eyes his master watches, the dark that eats the stars, the shadow inside.

Ashraaah's work

It's the same one who had given Vittorio Malvora his veil against true-sight, a taste like kerosene and rotten meat on the tongue. The irony does not escape you that in trying to hide his pawns he has actually revealed the connection between them,
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uju32 said:
It specifically points out the special relationship between Peabody and Ashraaaf.
Up to and including how his affiliation is hidden using the same techniques as Vito Malvora's are.
Nobody else is deep enough in the Hollow Man's employ to require those kinds of concealment techniqus.
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That's our senses being able to tell not the crown, telling us he's the most trusted of the Not Man. He's also the one closest to the white council. Senior membership at all times so he definitely needs a veil against truesight. So I'll reiterate by that metric, shaw could have been the leader of the conspiracy.
 
Degorium said:
They've already agreed to hand over their lives and souls to Lydia, you think a bit of information is a bridge too far really
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Hand over their already forfeit lives. The souls are not "handed over", it's Lydia who now has obligations to their souls instead. It's basically bartering for psychopomp bodyguard service.

They are almost certainly still going to dislike the side, that is going to make their souls being guided into afterlife a necessity in the first place, on general principle.

Meaning they have all the motivation spite can give, to not offer any *free* help to us. And there is little else we can promise effective death row prisoners.
 
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uju32 said:
We specifically pinged on Peabody above all the rest for a reason.
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We pinged Peabody because we already knew that name. It says nothing about his role in the conspiracy.
uju32 said:
Prisoners who surrendered =/= cooperative experts.
Just because a soldier surrendered doesnt mean he'll automatically be willing to tell you everything he knows.
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Lydia is literally holding the fates of eternal souls over their heads. They are cooperating.
 
[X] Try to interrogate the surrendered Warlocks
-[X] Use Akashic Root Methodology to instantly learn everything they know
 
OK, this is close but I'd like to get an update today. Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 29, 2024 at 1:13 PM, finished with 64 posts and 11 votes.
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Arc 14 Post 38: Inside Knowledge
  • Threadmarks
    • Inside Knowledge​

    18th of February 2007 A.D.

    Two dead warlocks, two alive though looking like they hardly want to be and one unconscious not-quite-Senior Council spy, that's what Lydia and company bring back with. Alongside that comes the news that one of the missing senior wizards is bound somehow in life and soul to Peabody, unless he's a better liar than Lydia and Sophia give him credit for, and most worrying of all still no word of Arthur Langtry. He could be dead, you read the same fear, the same suspicion in McCoy's furrowed brow and if Ancient Mai were any less restrained you have no doubt you'd read that on her face as well. The last thing the Council needs right now is a leadership struggle. The Warden Captain is still missing, presumed enchanted alongside a score of younger wardens, news from beyond Edinburgh has been sparse and mostly filled with pleas for reassurance rather than offers of the same.

    Regained 2 Essence-> Now at 14/18

    Just about the only unambiguously good news is that absent tremors and the aura of decay the chaos in Headquarters seems to have melted away. The geomancy Ancient Mai now suspects had been meant to do more than crack the vaults and expose the wizards to the city above, indeed that ticking bomb may have been of secondary import compared to the strengthening of their allies, particularly tugging on the spells of compulsion.

    Also there is a Denarian Sorcerer somewhere in around these halls. Even on a day like this the Fallen are never an afterthought.

    "Tiffany, your thoughts on which of the Fallen might be around and what they could be plotting?" You get a very real sense that the older wizards would like to find something else for Carlos to do about now. Charitably one could say this is not trusting them to keep their minds closed, less charitably you had found that secrecy is very much a wizard's sin, just as it can be their strength.

    "Though I am not privy to strategic thinking of all but one, I can hazard a guess as to who might be lead this way by their vices and desires. It is written that pride was the first of all sins among those who followed the Morning Star and I see no reason to doubt it, belief in the rightness of one's agenda often blinds the Fallen to alternatives and most hosts, even those whose will does not give out are so dazzled by the power and insight of an angel that they do nothing to correct the error."

    "Er... Molly why does your friend sound like she wants to give advice to devils?"

    "She doesn't, it's just that the advice she might give us on how to deal with them is the same. Insight can be turned both ways." Like a knife, you do not add that last thought.

    "Namshiel is most given to greed for the souls of damnation of mortal wizards since he feels that in giving mortals leave to touch the infinite and the sublime, to use magic is the fatal flaw in... Never mind." She pauses, like she had said too much, the rest of the arrested phrase obvious to everyone. Namshiel thinks that mortal wizards are the weakest link in God's ordering of the world. Whether it is true or not it's clear that Tiffany was throwing smoke and flashing mirrors, trying to get every wizard in the room to consider if they are liable to fall to temptation, if only to reassure themselves. All the while they are not questioning why she jumped to that name so fast.

    It works like a charm... almost. Eyes ringed with centuries of lines turn on her and in a very mild voice Ancient Mai asks: "Given what transpired today would it not make the most sense to consider simple opportunism?"

    What do you do?

    [] Throw out a few more names, diluting the value of the advice, but also exposing your Crown less (Manipulation+Subterfuge)

    [] Reveal that you've divined it's him (Opposed Wits Occult rolls to come up with a plausible means you might have done that)

    [] Interogate one of the warlocks
    -[] The two who surendered
    -[] Peabody

    [] Write in

    OOC: A bit short, but fortunately you do have the council's head diplomat here and Tiffany aimed Read Emotions wrong because she thought McCoy would be the larger problem
     
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    • DragonParadox said:
    Most likely because they are risky or costly to use. One generally does not want to pay too much, when dealing with the kinds of things the Black Council dealt with all the more so.
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    That basically reduces the entire conflict down to the opposition being the undoubtable winners waiting for fate to price match their victory save for the intervention of the protagonist. If Peabody had done this a year ago he's have won a perfect victory.

    Cost is a factor, but it feels a bit like they're getting boosted abilities and a subsidy to pay for them at the same time, netting out to just be absurdly more powerful than makes sense in the history of the setting. I legitimately don't see how it hangs together that he needed to act the way he has in the quest backstory but could also do parts of this at the drop of a hat.

    Mostly because everyone involved should really want to win whatever they're dedicating themselves to and should be investing their resources as effectively as they are know how to at all times in service of that. Mentality plays a significant role in this, but it creates a weird competence juxtaposition when people are good enough to make it to say the black council's position but bad enough at judging their operational context to exploit it on their own initiative.

    Not trying to salt about it, but from a plot consistency perspective "What were they spending their resources on other than winning?" is a genuinely important question.
    uju32 said:
    The US Army did not take B-52s to Mogadishu in the 1990s, and didnt patrol Iraq with M1 tanks.
    That doesnt mean they didnt have the capability, it means they didnt have the requirements or want to take the trade-offs.

    Similarly, black wizards who understand what the costs of calling on their associates entails arent going to be in a hurry to call on them if they can do it otherwise.
    Even McCoy doesnt pull out the Blackstaff every time he wants to cast magic
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    The canon balance of power very much didn't have the black council as the only side with aircraft carriers. The whole reason they acted like they did was because they couldn't destroy the council by force.

    If the US could have achieved all its goals by sending tanks on patrol somewhere or bombing one more city there's only so much explaining you can do about why they didn't just win and go home.

    From a story perspective what this sets up is endless justification for people arbitrarily increasing their budget when pressed which when taken together in any context but the immediate moment cease to make sense.

    Fundamentally it requires people to stop being any good at organizational management right before the plot starts, because people good enough to get where they are to start with wouldn't make such stupid decisions about what to do next.

    A lot of this is also heavily influenced by context. The black council having more resources to call on at need isn't necessarily a problem, unless using them would actually achieve their primary purpose on the spot without serious opposition.

    In so far as I can tell, at no point in this entire event was the council even remotely competent at anything important. Losing is one thing, but the conspiracy walked all over them end to end.

    They triggered an emergency that crippled the Wardens on the spot, set up a bomb that would have killed a huge number of elder members, and when two senior councilors went after them on their own ground one ended up hostage while the other disappeared into familiar space.

    If Peabody had kicked this off himself Morgan, Lucio, at least three senior council members, dozens of Wardens, and the nerve center of the Council's military operations would have gone up in smoke. To start.

    Emergency reserves making the warlocks more dangerous is one thing, completely overmatching their primary reason for existing is another.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    That basically reduces the entire conflict down to the opposition being the undoubtable winners waiting for fate to price match their victory save for the intervention of the protagonist. If Peabody had done this a year ago he's have won a perfect victory.

    Cost is a factor, but it feels a bit like they're getting boosted abilities and a subsidy to pay for them at the same time, netting out to just be absurdly more powerful than makes sense in the history of the setting. I legitimately don't see how it hangs together that he needed to act the way he has in the quest backstory but could also do parts of this at the drop of a hat.

    Mostly because everyone involved should really want to win whatever they're dedicating themselves to and should be investing their resources as effectively as they are know how to at all times in service of that. Mentality plays a significant role in this, but it creates a weird competence juxtaposition when people are good enough to make it to say the black council's position but bad enough at judging their operational context to exploit it on their own initiative.

    Not trying to salt about it, but from a plot consistency perspective "What were they spending their resources on other than winning?" is a genuinely important question.
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    Keep in mind you do not know what his options were years ago and more to the point you do not know what price he just paid. This very much had the air of a desperation play and even so he managed to cause more chaos than damage. In the absence of McCoy (which was by no means guaranteed) Ancient May could have rallied wizards to g after her. While she herself is not a fighter, the golems are immune to mental tricks and very tough
     
    [X] Plan: Base Greed
    -[X] Throw out a few more names, diluting the value of the advice, but also exposing your Crown less (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
    -[X] Stunt: The blatant opportunism is what marks it as Thorned Namshiel. While Nicodemus is not above as such tactics, He knows better than to interrupt an enemy while they're making a mistake. Magog too wrathful and full of himself to ever engage in the level of stealth necessary not to slather the halls in blood. Lasciel is still in the custody of the church. Lartessa, same reason as Nicodemus. You don't get that old and hated being that stupid. Attaching yourself to operations this reeking of desperation.
    -[X] The other denarians are as prone to following the schemes of their elders, as every other monster apparently Not to mention they hate each other and none of them are particularly prone to such naked Greedy overreach, except for The Thorned.

    [X] Fictionfan

    [X] Yog
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    Keep in mind you do not know what his options were years ago and more to the point you do not know what price he just paid. This very much had the air of a desperation play and even so he managed to cause more chaos than damage. In the absence of McCoy (which was by no means guaranteed) Ancient May could have rallied wizards to g after her. While she herself is not a fighter, the golems are immune to mental tricks and very tough
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    Fair, but how much would he need to pay in the first place? He did almost all of this with his existing minions, the most expensive element I see is the blampire stuff.

    Which could get very expensive, but if he wasn't working on 6 hours notice would he really need them? He just kidnapped and cast a life curse on a senior council member. What's the going rate on one of those with the forces of darkness?

    If we hadn't exposed the traitors Mai would be calling in Wardens while plants murdered and lied with impunity among their ranks. I'm skeptical about how well that would have gone and how much time was left on the bomb about to kill them all.


    DragonParadox said:
    [] Reveal that you've divined it's him (Opposed Wits Occult rolls to come up with a plausible means you might have done that)
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    Could we potentially use the whole Yama Queen thing for this? The Thousand Hells each have a sin profile that they favor. My understanding is that generally they need people to sin and die in certain ways at certain places to claim their souls without buying them first.

    The particulars of the powers a lord of Yomi Wan has probably aren't well documented, and it doesn't sound unreasonable for them to have senses related to their sins. So what if we imply that Molly's hell is one that keys off of sinning against magic?

    From a certain perspective it makes sense, and the more you know about her the more sense it'd appear to make. Arguably the thing that led her to acquiring her new powers was breaking the second law in ignorance. The hell she rules is a place of infinite second chances where the laws of magic don't quite apply the same way and the greatest social taboo is against damage to the mind and spirit.

    The thematic connection is obvious even if you don't believe her claims to have made it. It wouldn't take much to argue it's the perfect place for a warlock to purify their soul.

    So when a conspirator sent a victim of mind magic into her place of power they basically did something between using crystal meth in a courthouse and flash raw meat at a starving dog.

    We found all the warlocks working together because they're warlocks working together. The sins bled into one another. Namshiel's mortal host is still hanging on to enough of the driver's seat to count.

    It's all bullshit, but people absolutely love reciprocal narratives like this. A penitent sinner descended into hell and is made whole. Then returns, master of that which she endured and with power over those who are broken as she was.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    Fair, but how much would he need to pay in the first place? He did almost all of this with his existing minions, the most expensive element I see is the blampire stuff.

    Which could get very expensive, but if he wasn't working on 6 hours notice would he really need them? He just kidnapped and cast a life curse on a senior council member. What's the going rate on one of those with the forces of darkness?

    If we hadn't exposed the traitors Mai would be calling in Wardens while plants murdered and lied with impunity among their ranks. I'm skeptical about how well that would have gone and how much time was left on the bomb about to kill them all.
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    As far as Molly can guess yeah. Peabody did not have that many traitors, he needed the chaos to make confused loyalists kill each other and the tremors and obvious dark magic inside the halls was part of faking a vampire attack.
     
    [x] The Denarians have been spending about as much time scrying me as the Black council. Not realizing just how vulnerable that makes them to me looking back.
    --[x][Stunt]I look over at my shadow and smirk the smug smirk of someone revealing they have had someone playing into their hands for awhile now.
     
    Degorium said:
    That's our senses being able to tell not the crown, telling us he's the most trusted of the Not Man. He's also the one closest to the white council. Senior membership at all times so he definitely needs a veil against truesight. So I'll reiterate by that metric, shaw could have been the leader of the conspiracy.
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    I strongly disagree with your argument here.

    Yog said:
    We pinged Peabody because we already knew that name. It says nothing about his role in the conspiracy.
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    You are mistaken.
    We had heard of the name before from Harry after he took the Book of Yomi Wan to the Council.
    But its not the only wizard name we'd heard of.

    We fixated on this one of all the traitors because of the Ashraaf link.
    Yog said:
    Lydia is literally holding the fates of eternal souls over their heads. They are cooperating.
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    Lydia made a bargain with them in the presence of witnesses, in a setting where your social credit score and trustworthiness depends on keeping your word. The terms of the bargain were clearly delineated to their surrender, nothing more, and extra information is outside the terms of their surrender agreement.

    She cant just change the deal, and she is too old-fashioned to do so.
    Thats why you need Molly and Sophia to double team them into talking.
    BronzeTongue said:
    The canon balance of power very much didn't have the black council as the only side with aircraft carriers. The whole reason they acted like they did was because they couldn't destroy the council by force.
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    1) The forces of Order are a lot more concerned with collateral damage than those of Destro.
    Not necessarily because they are bleeding hearts, but because Destro wants to tear shit down, and indiscriminate force plays into their hands. Also, the forces of Destro are much better at hiding :V

    2) We dont know that.
    Nemesis has every incentive to lie, but it does claim that part of the reasons it does what it does is to get people to lose faith in the status quo. And Nicodemus unknowingly corroborates this with the same line "Apocalypse is a state of mind".

    Destroying the Council by force wont prevent survivors regrouping. You have to make them lose faith.

    DragonParadox said:
    Inside Knowledge​
    18th of February 2007 A.D.
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    COMMENTARY
    So we are missing 2x Senior Council members, 1x Warden captain, and a score of junior Wardens.
    At a minimum. Plus Namshiel is still here.
    Im guessing that Namshiel has something to do with the absence of both the Merlin and LaFortier.


    I KNEW I was missing something. This is a callback to our very first case.
    You guys remember this from Arc 1?
    Arc 1 Post 21 said:
    You shake the thought off, there is someone a lot more deserving of bearing the weight of your power here, Centering yourself you open eyes within eyes, within eyes, fleeting fractal understanding and in that moment you ask:

    "What are the identities of Gorfel's brotherhood?"
    Lost 1 Essence
    The answer unfolds like a parchment before you, or maybe like a tapestry unfurling, each name a thread dipped in blood:

    Dr. Hans Ulrich Speer, Bone Digger, Stone Breaker
    Johann of Cleaves, Wizard, Pianist, Lover of Flames
    Katrina Sigfriddotir, the Forsaken Sister
    Lucian of Cephaloedium, the Thrice Betrayer, Namshiel's Bearer
    Marcus Scribonius Libo Drusus, the Hollow Seer
    Theodosius Cristos, the Broken Bridge
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    Katrina Sigfriddottir and Johann of Cleaves are both dead, courtesy of Molly and Odin respectively.
    Lucian of Cephaloedium is the current host of Thorned Namshiel.

    I will bet you anything that Marcus Drusus, the Hollow Seer, is the Hollow Man.
    It would fit with his alleged ability to monitor Shaw.
    QM has been dangling it under our noses for months now.

    Which would, coincidentally, make him either two thousand years old, or a time traveller from the Fallout: New Vegas timeline

    Marcus Scribonius Libo Drusus - Wikipedia

    en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
    fallout.fandom.com

    M. Scribonius Libo Drusus

    M. Scribonius Libo Drusus is a member of Caesar's Legion in 2281. An administrator working under the Legion's Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus, he was responsible for purchasing Novac citizen Carla Boone and arranging for her abduction.[1] M. Scribonius Libo Drusus is mentioned only in Fallout...
    fallout.fandom.com fallout.fandom.com

    Very nice reference by the QM here.


    With both Molly + Lydia here, we can conceivably crack one of the prisoners wide open.
    Molly is throwing 20 dice of social as Key(Cha/Man 4 + Empathy 5 + Excellency 9 + Stunt 2), while Sophia can throw at least 16 dice (Man/Cha 4 + Empathy 5 + Sirens Veil 2 + Ubermensch 4 + Secret of Gaia 1) if she spends 5WP. With or without BSM.

    The question is whether to tackle the captive warlocks(ambush guy + Peabody's mooks = 3) or to risk tackling Peabody himself.

    If Molly + Sophia can get any of them to talk or cooperate, Lydia can now use Akashic Root Methodology to pull up anything they should plausibly know instantly.
    Like the identities of the other members of the conspiracy, or what they know of Peabody/Ashraaaf's plans.


    Also worth remembering that Harry is a pretty good tracker. Tracked Molly to Arctis Tor.
    And all the Senior Council members have quarters in Edinburgh.
    So does Luccio, I think.

    We might want to send Morgan to their quarters to look for hairs or effects that could go into a tracking spell.
    For both the Senior Council members and the junior Wardens.
     
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    uju32 said:
    I strongly disagree with your argument here.


    You are mistaken.
    We had heard of the name before from Harry after he took the Book of Yomi Wan to the Council.
    But its not the only wizard name we'd heard of.

    We fixated on this one of all the traitors because of the Ashraaf link.

    Lydia made a bargain with them in the presence of witnesses, in a setting where your social credit score and trustworthiness depends on keeping your word. The terms of the bargain were clearly delineated to their surrender, nothing more, and extra information is outside the terms of their surrender agreement.

    She cant just change the deal, and she is too old-fashioned to do so.
    Thats why you need Molly and Sophia to double team them into talking.

    1) The forces of Order are a lot more concerned with collateral damage than those of Destro.
    Not necessarily because they are bleeding hearts, but because Destro wants to tear shit down, and indiscriminate force plays into their hands. Also, the forces of Destro are much better at hiding :V

    2) We dont know that.
    Nemesis has every incentive to lie, but it does claim that part of the reasons it does what it does is to get people to lose faith in the status quo. And Nicodemus unknowingly corroborates this with the same line "Apocalypse is a state of mind".

    Destroying the Council by force wont prevent survivors regrouping. You have to make them lose faith.


    COMMENTARY
    So we are missing 2x Senior Council members, 1x Warden captain, and a score of junior Wardens.
    At a minimum. Plus Namshiel is still here.
    Im guessing that Namshiel has something to do with the absence of both the Merlin and LaFortier.


    I KNEW I was missing something. This is a callback to our very first case.
    You guys remember this from Arc 1?

    Katrina Sigfriddottir and Johann of Cleaves are both dead, courtesy of Molly and Odin respectively.
    Lucian of Cephaloedium is the current host of Thorned Namshiel.

    I will bet you anything that Marcus Drusus, the Hollow Seer, is the Hollow Man.
    It would fit with his alleged ability to monitor Shaw.
    QM has been dangling it under our noses for months now.

    Which would, coincidentally, make him either two thousand years old, or a time traveller from the Fallout: New Vegas timeline

    Marcus Scribonius Libo Drusus - Wikipedia

    en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
    fallout.fandom.com

    M. Scribonius Libo Drusus

    M. Scribonius Libo Drusus is a member of Caesar's Legion in 2281. An administrator working under the Legion's Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus, he was responsible for purchasing Novac citizen Carla Boone and arranging for her abduction.[1] M. Scribonius Libo Drusus is mentioned only in Fallout...
    fallout.fandom.com fallout.fandom.com

    Very nice reference by the QM here.


    With both Molly + Lydia here, we can conceivably crack one of the prisoners wide open.
    Molly is throwing 20 dice of social as Key(Cha/Man 4 + Empathy 5 + Excellency 9 + Stunt 2), while Sophia can throw at least 16 dice (Man/Cha 4 + Empathy 5 + Sirens Veil 2 + Ubermensch 4 + Secret of Gaia 1) if she spends 5WP. With or without BSM.

    The question is whether to tackle the captive warlocks(ambush guy + Peabody's mooks = 3) or to risk tackling Peabody himself.

    If Molly + Sophia can get any of them to talk or cooperate, Lydia can now use Akashic Root Methodology to pull up anything they should plausibly know instantly.
    Like the identities of the other members of the conspiracy, or what they know of Peabody/Ashraaaf's plans.


    Also worth remembering that Harry is a pretty good tracker. Tracked Molly to Arctis Tor.
    And all the Senior Council members have quarters in Edinburgh.
    So does Luccio, I think.

    We might want to send Morgan to their quarters to look for hairs or effects that could go into a tracking spell.
    For both the Senior Council members and the junior Wardens.
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    isn't tracking or thaumaturgy which often involves tracking literally dresdens specialty?
     
    uju32 said:
    Katrina Sigfriddottir and Johann of Cleaves are both dead, courtesy of Molly and Odin respectively.
    Lucian of Cephaloedium is the current host of Thorned Namshiel.

    I will bet you anything that Marcus Drusus, the Hollow Seer, is the Hollow Man.
    It would fit with his alleged ability to monitor Shaw.
    QM has been dangling it under our noses for months now.

    Which would, coincidentally, make him either two thousand years old, or a time traveller from the Fallout: New Vegas timeline
    Click to expand...
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    Damn. Real nice find here.
     
    [X] Reveal that you've divined it's him (Opposed Wits Occult rolls to come up with a plausible means you might have done that)
    -[X] Obfuscate the means of divination by revealing (edited) version of your investigation into Gorfel's brotherhood over the last half a year
    --[X] Use relevant excellency (probably subterfuge)

    "We have discovered an existence of a brotherhood when they attacked me and dad. I have been investigating them and getting foci for them ever since".
     
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