Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Jul 17, 2024

BoredMan said:
I think you missed my point. I'm saying that the methods they've been using won't work if the Masquerade falls because of the much greater number of people and enemies they'd have to deal with. This has not happened yet. Going on about their track record when they haven't had to deal with a modern Masquerade absent humanity after the population boom is pointless.

I dont really think thats accurate.
And even if it was, they have had centuries to plan for the possibility.

BoredMan said:
What are you talking about??? The Crown showed us that bringing down the Masquerade is a goal of his. We already know that Nemesis wants that. It's not up for debate.

I genuinely dont recall a vision about Nemesis' goals.
Its origins, yes. Its goals and methods, no.
Can I get a citation, please. If you can recall the update.

BoredMan said:
Point made then. They are suffering significant losses as is. It'll get worse if the Masquerade falls. Problematic for the lifeblood of an organization with many enemies waiting in the wings.

How?
Genuine question.

BoredMan said:
Your mentioning the increased chaos and bringing up that monsters may use the new mortal magic users as fuel. That isn't a good thing for the White Council. It makes their struggle worse.

Monsters are using mortal magic users they can get their hands on already.
The Masquerade falling wouldnt improve or decrease their availability to any particular faction, just increase the number of factions in play.

And the Bad Guys are just as prone to attack each other as to attack the Good Guys.
As you can see from both Cleveland and Las Vegas.

BoredMan said:
The Masquerade is still up. If it goes down their looses will get much worse.

I genuinely dont see it.
They arent losing people to warlocks or Lawbreakers, they are losing people to the Vampire War. If the Masquerade broke down, that would have no impact on those losses.

The White Council isnt at risk. The lesser magical talents, potentially yes. The White Council, no.

DragonParadox said:
I'm not sure I'd call 2006 'beginning to tapper off' at least not in terms of world population. It is expected to hit 9.7 billion in 2050 up from 6.6 billion presently, that may be 'only' 50%, but it is still over three billion people more.

Its very much tapering off with regards to growth rate.

Like I pointed out, just over the course of the 20th century human population has gone from 2 billion in 1927 to 6 billion in 2000.
Thats 300% over 73 years.
Going from 300% in 70 years to 50% in the same period is very much tapering.

Wikipedia said:
one billion in 1804

two billion in 1927

three billion in 1960

four billion in 1974

five billion in 1987

six billion in 1999

seven billion in 2011

eight billion in 2023

Here.
If you look at these official charts from the UN you'll notice that global population growth rates peaked around 1960, 1965 and have been progressively dropping since:

UN Population Charts said:
Source:

https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/DemographicProfiles/Line/900

Given as he was 25 in 2000, Harry was born around 1975.

Yes, the population is still growing, but its been slowing for the last half-century.
I am reasonably sure the White Council noticed and accounted for it; Butcher has been clear about how human societal uplift was a longterm project of theirs.

Which is why I wonder if Harry is simply worrying about something that the actual senior members of the Council accounted for a long time ago, but which he never bothered to ask about.
Because the tale of Harry and the White Council is a tale of miscommunication, deliberate and otherwise.

Anaja · Jul 17, 2024

Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Jul 17, 2024 at 3:00 AM, finished with 84 posts and 20 votes.

9 people have voted
[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
- ImBuda
- SCO
- fictionfan
- OctarineShrike
- uju32
- superguy2876
- Alratan
- Sesparra
- tenchifew
8 people have voted
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
- Fouredged Sword
- NinjaOfOrthanc
- Lasombran
- Goldfish
- Yog
- Nyarky
- Degorium
- Mithrill
5 people have voted
[X] Harry, I believe in the Ten Commandments, I've also killed people, the Knights of the Cross kill people when they have no other choice, what you are describing is a hurdle ot cross, not a reason to never set off on the road, not when it could save lives
- Zero2002
- the DragonBard
- Yog
- Nyarky
- Degorium
4 people have voted
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
-[X] "Emotions aside", you pause, taking a breath, both to calm down and to punctuate the change in your argument, "this doesn't make Law violations easier, or force the Council to change their policies at all. If anything, such a separation would make it harder for people to turn into full-on mad cackling warlocks. It just removes one victim from the equation."
- Yog
- Nyarky
- Degorium
- Mithrill
3 people have voted
[X] Passenger Pigeon Incarna Plan Go!
1 people have voted
[X] If the flaw is not wrongdoing, but the perception of wrongdoing, then the solution is the adjustment of how it is perceived.
- frozenchicken

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

uju32 said:
Here.
If you look at these official charts from the UN you'll notice that global population growth rates peaked around 1960, 1965 and have been progressively dropping since:
Given as he was 25 in 2000, Harry was born around 1975.

Yes, the population is still growing, but its been slowing for the last half-century.
I am reasonably sure the White Council noticed and accounted for it; Butcher has been clear about how human societal uplift was a longterm project of theirs.

Which is why I wonder if Harry is simply worrying about something that the actual senior members of the Council accounted for a long time ago, but which he never bothered to ask about.
Because the tale of Harry and the White Council is a tale of miscommunication, deliberate and otherwise.

I think you are giving the White Council, specifically the leadership more credit than I am. Sure they had a hand in the enlightenment, but that does not mean that they could anticipate all the consequences that that uplift would bring. These are very clever people... but they are still people born before industrialization, they were born not one but two paradigm shifts ago (industrialization and digitization).

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

BoredMan said:
There are those who know of the laws and the consequences for breaking them and have been temped to do so. Some of them may keep away from it because of the mental corruption aspect moreso than the other factors. The magic reinforcement would make you more likely to do it again but without that factor some could look at black magic as less of a gateway drug to evil acts and to an extent ego death and moreso as a 'necessary' tool to be applied if required.

In that specific instance they could make it more "available". I'm not sure if that's what the others mean though.

That's fair, but, and this is personal opinion, the subsection of wizards who are aware of the corruptive nature of black magic, and are held back from doing said magic by said corruptive nature is minuscule enough not to matter significantly. But yes, I acknowledge this issue.

Degorium said:
One thing I do feel the need to bring up is when the Masquerade Falls the white council is going to get named an extra judicial murder cult. How many minor talents are going to come forward about these people that are leveraging threats on people's lives and that they've seen actively hunting and killing people. Because the council cannot be bothered to explain the rules to anyone or Barely considers itself accountable to minor practitioners anyone who is like Olivia is going to try and shit down their neck at the first opportunity. The fact that they are an extra judicial murder cult isn't going to help that. No one's going to want to hear their pseudo religious magic bullshit about why they killed that 17 year old. Never mind the people that definitely knew their Brother, sister, cousin, friend, other friend, ex, relation had some abilities that let them do something outside the normal then that relation disappeared even if it wasn't the Council that did it they're going to think it was the extra judicial murder cult.

Oh, totally. From the perspective of a lot of people they are an international terrorist organization, Illuminati writ large that asserts its jurisdiction in matters of life and death over non-consenting people all over the world. It's going to be a big issue in the modern world.

I am almost certain that the masquerade will fail in the observable future. And that's going to be a huge problem for White Council.

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
-[][Stunt] matching Harry's gaze Molly reached not just for her own certainty, but for beliefs sparked in what felt like another age. "is it more important to punish sinners or to save them? To avenge victims or protect them?" she asked, blunt as her mother's hammer and steady as her father's faith. "The point isn't to make breaking the laws easy, it's to make it harder"
—[] "In this world of imperfection and compromise we make decisions in ignorance that even with the best intentions can be impossible to understand the consequences of beforehand. I of all people know how easy it can be for that to go wrong". The look on Nelson face when she was done with him flashed across her mind's eye for a moment.
—[] "Even if we could tell everyone it's the nature of people to stumble sometimes. To a healthy person even a justified killing is a terrible thing, and an unhealthy one wouldn't be bothered either way. Our friends here wouldn't be an Indulgence, they'd be preserving the soundness of mind needed to understand the consequences of one's actions and the sanctity of will necessary to choose to be better"

I like it a lot, but if I add that, it'll spit the the vote further, and we are already losing (and let me say, this feels like the vote is being re-litigated immediately after a narrow victory of the last one. This feels frustrating). Not sure what to do, sorry.

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

Yog said:
I like it a lot, but if I add that, it'll spit the the vote further, and we are already losing (and let me say, this feels like the vote is being re-litigated immediately after a narrow victory of the last one. This feels frustrating). Not sure what to do, sorry.

Sorry about that, I get the frustration, but I couldn't not have Harry comment, this is important to him and it's important to the Council.

BoredMan · Jul 17, 2024

uju32 said:
I dont really think thats accurate.
And even if it was, they have had centuries to plan for the possibility.

Until we see these plans that they definitely totally have they can't be factored in but sure.

uju32 said:
I genuinely dont recall a vision about Nemesis' goals.
Its origins, yes. Its goals and methods, no.
Can I get a citation, please. If you can recall the update

Found it. We didn't use a Crown question that was me misremembering but we did get a vision after eating Nemesis shards.

DragonParadox said:
It had not wanted to attack after the ritual began because It knew you could devour its shards and thereby potentially learning hastily made plans, making it all for naught. Oh how it hates you, kind of flattering in a sick sort of way. Diversify, disperse, There is cold resolve, wrapped in the self-loathing that defines He Who Walks Beside. Sloppy, comfortable, took the easy path to power, predictable, open to counter. "Mortals, mortals were mightier than the Betrayers and the Fools knew, move not with two hands, but two thousand, two million, two billion..."

There at the end you see flames set to wood that is not dry but green, stacked around a stake and you know at once the thought that it had attempted to keep from those pieces which you would consume. Persecution, its thoughts had turned to tearing aside the veil and letting fear of magic and those who practice it.

uju32 said:
How?
Genuine question.

Reread my post? I've already said how casualties would get worse. I suppose I could quote myself but I've already answered this straightforwardly in response to you earlier.

uju32 said:
Monsters are using mortal magic users they can get their hands on already.
The Masquerade falling wouldnt improve or decrease their availability to any particular faction, just increase the number of factions in play.

And the Bad Guys are just as prone to attack each other as to attack the Good Guys.
As you can see from both Cleveland and Las Vegas.

And the number would increase. I.. have no idea how you could come to such a conclusion. To say this you'd have to somehow know that all factions wouldn't try to take advantage of the Masquerade falling and have some degree of success.

This is true.

uju32 said:
I genuinely dont see it.
They arent losing people to warlocks or Lawbreakers, they are losing people to the Vampire War. If the Masquerade broke down, that would have no impact on those losses.

The White Council isnt at risk. The lesser magical talents, potentially yes. The White Council, no.

The White Council does loose people to Warlocks and lawbreakers. You don't seriously think that they never take casualties in dealing with them especially when they can't kill directly without a sword but the Warlocks certainly can.

I think this is something rather odd to make such definitive statements on given the unknown variables here since this is a scenario that doesn't exist anywhere in the books but if that's what you've decided on then whatever have you.

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Sorry about that, I get the frustration, but I couldn't not have Harry comment, this is important to him and it's important to the Council.

No, I understand, really. It's natural for Harry to react, and it's natural for voters to vote how they wish.

I am a bit frustrated because, if nothing else, and putting aside that attempts to move status quo are met with heavy resistance, no matter how bad status quo is, if we simply resurrect the pigeons, they'll just go extinct again. And I pity them, and don't want that to happen. Familiar route makes them valuable, creates an additional ecosystem for them - wizards would keep them around and ensure their survival. The alternative is the hivemind idea, or boosting a pigeon god into being, but those weren't voted for.

I don't want to bring them back, and then see them disappear again.

TheGrape · Jul 17, 2024

[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out

Artemis1992 · Jul 17, 2024

[X] Yog

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

@DragonParadox what happens to the collective species spirit after pigeons are resurrected one way or another? Does it just dissipate? Put in differently: is there anything stopping us from resurrecting thr pigeons and then making the spirit into an incarna level pigeon god to look over the species?

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

Yog said:
@DragonParadox what happens to the collective species spirit after pigeons are resurrected one way or another? Does it just dissipate? Put in differently: is there anything stopping us from resurrecting thr pigeons and then making the spirit into an incarna level pigeon god to look over the species?

Normally they would fade on their own, but since Kemmler bound them here Lydia would have to undo the binding first so yeah you can do it in that order.

Do keep in mind it is not actually incarna or DPE would not work. In WoD terms this is a very strong Jaggling.

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Normally they would fade on their own, but since Kemmler bound them here Lydia would have to undo the binding first so yeah you can do it in that order.

Do keep in mind it is not actually incarna or DPE would not work. In WoD terms this is a very strong Jaggling.

Yes, but if we do exalted craft to it, could we actually push it over the boundary? Transition a spirit into a proper god with a proper domain, boostingnits efficiency and power.

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

Yog said:
Yes, but if we do exalted craft to it, could we actually push it over the boundary? Transition a spirit into a proper god with a proper domain, boostingnits efficiency and power.

You could do that yes.

Degorium · Jul 17, 2024

I've finally beaten the Impaler and he gave me inspiration especially when I read the tracker trinket to which is a two-dot prodigy in the crafting rules.

Tracker Trinket (••)
This enchantment may be woven into a variety of different small objects. Wallets and small
objets d'art are the most common forms this Prodigy takes. If the attuned Exalt ostentatiously
displays the Tracker Trinket to a particular person, they must make a Willpower roll against
difficulty 7, or else become seized with a powerful desire to possess the Trinket. While this
compulsion isn't strong enough to make someone violate their Nature or act wildly out of
character—which is to say, they won't simply try to seize it by violence unless they are a Bravo
or otherwise have no compunctions about extremely antisocial behavior, and won't try to steal it
from the Exalt's pocket unless they're an accomplished pickpocket—they do need to spend a
Willpower point to resist the urge to take the object if they think they can do so without
consequences.
The Tracker Trinket carries a second, related enchantment as well: the Exalt always knows
exactly where it is so long as she remains attuned to it. Because of the nature of how this Prodigy
functions, versions of it which do not require attunement cannot be made

Which is just random objects that you can force people to have to spend willpower not to try and take even if they would normally not give a shit or if they're already dispositioned towards taking it having to make a willpower roll. Coins with random Fascination enchantments woven in which sounds to me like maybe some talismans or pins or heart medallions with magic woven are appropriate.

@DragonParadox while these are not serious pitches of prodigies knowing if something like this is appropriate to suggest would be really cool I would also like to hear your thoughts on them.

●● Flame Sword Insignia: A talisman depicting a raised blade of emerald flames. An honor bestowed upon those who serve the Empress of the Five Fold Court. Greatly raises attack power with successive attacks. System: As long as no action (Dodge, Parry, Block) is taken to defend oneself, damage on successive attacks is increased by one per attack to a maximum of 5. This talisman only functions on melee and brawl attacks. This Talisman does not occupy an Attunement slot.

To be honest forsaking all forms of active defense for more power is a hell of an aesthetic. it's also a good way to die quickly so you better have backup or you're not getting much use at this and I guess if you have a multi-attack charm or otherwise have the ability to use multiple actions in a turn to attack you could do that but then you're spending your entire energy budget to take advantage of this Talisman at which poiny it becomes a vital part of your strategy kill them before you run out of juice and die.

●● Exalted Scarseal: A Talisman taking on the seeming of the eye of the being it was made for carrying the Old Realm rune of the Exalted. Must be made with the blood of a Chosen and the being the scarseal is for. Raises endurance and wherewithal to the level of the Chosen but also increases damage taken. These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods. System: The character in possession of the scarseal soaks damage and deals with multiple opponents as if they were exalted (See EXvsWOD pgs. 34, 36). If they take three or more bashing damage in a turn, take an additional unsoakable bashing damage. If they take four or more lethal damage in a turn add an additional unsoakable lethal damage. This Talisman does not occupy an Attunement slot.

●●● Exalted Soreseal: A Talisman taking on the seeming of the eye of the being it was made for deeply engraved with the Old Realm rune of the Exalted. Must be made with the blood of a Chosen and the being the soreseal is for. Raises endurance, wherewithal, recovery and bombastics to the level of the Chosen but also increases damage taken. These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods. System: The character in possession of this soreseal soaks damage, deals with multiple opponents and recovers from injury and stunts as if they were exalted (See EXvsWOD pgs. 34, 36). If they take three or more bashing damage in a turn take an additional two unsoakable bashing damage. If they take four or more lethal damage in a turn add an additional unsoakable lethal damage. If they take four or more aggravated damage in a round they take an additional two aggravated damage that must be soaked with stamina alone. This Talisman does not occupy an Attunement slot.

Along those lines there's something to be said about unsoakable damage in a system where you only have seven health levels for most humanoids. You're really taking your life into your own hands there's a real judgment call being made about whether or not you definitely need the strain or the durability or generally just the abilities of the exalted without a lot of their advantages. There is something great about being able to fight groups of people without being drowned under their body mass, this doesn't actually give you the ability to Parry bullets though, it also doesn't Grant the ability to not have one subtract from your dice pools either to dodge or just in general then again it's maybe you need it to fight some kind of Supernatural or just in general so you need to be able to soak aggravated so that the claws and the manifested Flames don't immediately eat through your flesh at very least not without resistance.

●● Empress Scarseal: A Talisman taking on the seeming of an eye cradled in Emerald Flame carrying the Pentact rune of the Court of Fate. Must be made with the blood of the Queen and the being the scarseal is for. Raises acumen for Occult and Melee and increases durability but also increases damage taken. System: The character in possession of this scarseal no longer subtracts ones from successes on melee and occult rolls and has - 1 difficulty on soak rolls. If they take three or more bashing damage in a turn, take an additional unsoakable bashing damage. If they take four or more lethal damage in a turn add an additional unsoakable lethal damage. This Talisman does not occupy an Attunement slot.

●●● Empress Soreseal: A Talisman taking on the seeming of an eye cradled in Emerald Flame deeply engraved with the Pentact rune of the Court of Fate. Must be made with the blood of the Queen and the being the soreseal is for. Raises acumen for Occult, Melee and Etiquette and increases durability as well as pain threshold but also increases damage taken. System: The character in possession of this soreseal no longer subtracts ones from successes on Melee, Etiquette, Occult rolls and has - 1 difficulty on soak rolls while reducing Wound penalties by 1. If they take three or more bashing damage in a turn take an additional two unsoakable bashing damage. If they take four or more lethal damage in a turn add an additional unsoakable lethal damage. If they take four or more aggravated damage in a round they take an additional two aggravated damage that must be soaked with stamina alone. This Talisman does not occupy an Attunement slot.

Molly's personal Scar/Sore seal, the flip side of the Exalted sore seal if you already possessed the ability to soak aggravated damage all using the other sore seal does is make it more likely you'll die having taken any kind of damage whatsoever unless you're against groups of people. A more refined personal combat / magical undertaking Talisman reflective of Molly's own nature a sorceress a Swordsman a queen. Where any chosen could make an exalted sore seal this is the queen's.

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

Very nice, I like the theme on the scarseal, very fitting as a way to spread out some of the boons of the Exlatation to those sworn to her.

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

DragonParadox said:
You could do that yes.

Ok, further question - if we do "create god of Chicago" action, can we do "create pigeon god" with malcoffee bonus AP as an extension of the first god forging project?

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

Yog said:
Ok, further question - if we do "create god of Chicago" action, can we do "create pigeon god" with malcoffee bonus AP as an extension of the first god forging project?

Unfortunately not, even for one of the Celestial Exalted making gods isn't commonplace enough that they can just tack another one on as a bonus.

Yog · Jul 17, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Unfortunately not, even for one of the Celestial Exalted making gods isn't commonplace enough that they can just tack another one on as a bonus.

Ok, this still seems like a good combo to take together. So, next turn
Secure exaltation
Deal with Peabody
Craft pigeon familiars if the vote wins
Craft stuff to pay off Archive and others
Create god of Chicago
Create Pigeon god - this should also increase the security of Chicago, if its primary "roost" is going to be there
*free slot if pigeon familiars lose, like it seems they will (sad face)* - I think I'll probably go with satellite takeover. This way we get multi-layered defenses for home front in one turn - global surveillance with satellites, local surveillance and defenses with gods

BronzeTongue · Jul 17, 2024

uju32 said:
I dont really think thats accurate.
And even if it was, they have had centuries to plan for the possibility

They haven't though, and it's not a function of Harry's ignorance. He spent a lot of effort working the Council's internal politics on the issue of minor talents and no one knew what to do or had a plan in place. If the older wizards had something it would have been stupid to let it become a wedge between themselves and the younger generations.

Edit:

To be clear, Harry's Paranet work involved coordinating with Wizards across the world and the high level Wardens in particular. Working on this issue with Lucio, captain of the council's military and law enforcement arm, on this issue for so long makes it extremely unlikely that there was some sort of plan in the works he was too oblivious to see.

The people he worked with would not have acted as they did if that was the case.

BoredMan · Jul 17, 2024

[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.

[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
-[X] "Emotions aside", you pause, taking a breath, both to calm down and to punctuate the change in your argument, "this doesn't make Law violations easier, or force the Council to change their policies at all. If anything, such a separation would make it harder for people to turn into full-on mad cackling warlocks. It just removes one victim from the equation."

uju32 · Jul 17, 2024

DragonParadox said:
I think you are giving the White Council, specifically the leadership more credit than I am. Sure they had a hand in the enlightenment, but that does not mean that they could anticipate all the consequences that that uplift would bring. These are very clever people... but they are still people born before industrialization, they were born not one but two paradigm shifts ago (industrialization and digitization).

You cannot be as rich and as economically influential as the White Council is without an acute and ongoing corporate understanding of things like demographics. You certainly cannot weaponize economics as they allegedly did against the Red Court without it.

And we are told and shown, mostly OOC, that prominent wizards understand the world pretty well.

Joseph Listens to Wind goes back to university every couple decades to keep up to date with modern medicine.
Ebenezar McCoy is a space aficionado who introduced Harry to watching satellites during the 2 years he was on the farm.
Donald Morgan was keeping track of US nuclear testing that he had the exact timing to lure a naagloshii into the path of one

The White Council was responsible for keeping the Cold War from going hot, even:

Q: If the White Council is so oblivious to things going on in the mortal world, how is it that Morgan knew exactly when the nuclear test was going to be (for when he nuked the skinwalker)?
A: A couple of tests had happened, and those things are disruptive. They send out a giant electromagnetic pulse. So naturally, the wizards noticed it. They did some research to figure out what it was, and once they understood, they made sure to know each time it was going to happen so nobody would get freaked out. So Morgan just had to plan it, to lure the skinwalker onto the range at the right time. Then he opened up a portal to the NeverNever, and barred the door behind himself. Boom.

Senior wizards are actually fairly aware of big things going on with mortals. They knew all about what was happening in the US and Russia during the Cold War. In fact, they were the ones who realized that Russia really wasn't a major power, and that everything they were doing was in fear of the US and in preparation for defending themselves. Wizards planted the idea for the US to bug Russia. When the US found out that Russia really was just scared of them, that's when the peace discussions began.

Individual wizards might be ignorant; the White Council isnt.
You dont survive a thousand years as a corporate institution without keeping track of your surroundings.

Dresden is a biased observer, and one who is missing key information, both withheld from him, and which he ignored.
Because he doesnt socialize much among wizards, he doesnt really have a good assessment of Council institutional knowledge. Its always something to keep in mind when reading things from his PoV.

EDIT
Seriously, the trajectory of human population growth has been a matter of discussion for the last century.
China instituted its official One Child policy back in the 1970s, and India had mass sterilization campaigns starting, IIRC, back when Indira Gandhi was PM in the 1970s.

The legacy of India’s quest to sterilise millions of men

In the 1970s, the Indian government was under international pressure to control its population—and took drastic action.

qz.com

This isnt new shit.

uju32 · Jul 17, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
They haven't though, and it's not a function of Harry's ignorance. He spent a lot of effort working the Council's internal politics on the issue of minor talents and no one knew what to do or had a plan in place. If the older wizards had something it would have been stupid to let it become a wedge between themselves and the younger generations.

Edit:

To be clear, Harry's Paranet work involved coordinating with Wizards across the world and the high level Wardens in particular. Working on this issue with Lucio, captain of the council's military and law enforcement arm, on this issue for so long makes it extremely unlikely that there was some sort of plan in the works he was too oblivious to see.

The people he worked with would not have acted as they did if that was the case.

No he did not.

The Paranet is an explicitly non-Council effort of his, funded by money he got from Lara Raith as informal weregeld for the murder of Cauldron members, and organized with the aid of Elaine Mallory, who was explicitly avoiding Council attention and flunking Council evaluations deliberately.

The Council had nothing to do with it, because he largely kept them OUT of it.
This was after he figured out Black Council infiltration of the Council was a thing, IIRC.

BronzeTongue · Jul 17, 2024

Yog said:
Ok, this still seems like a good combo to take together. So, next turn
Secure exaltation
Deal with Peabody
Craft pigeon familiars if the vote wins
Craft stuff to pay off Archive and others
Create god of Chicago
Create Pigeon god - this should also increase the security of Chicago, if its primary "roost" is going to be there
*free slot if pigeon familiars lose, like it seems they will (sad face)* - I think I'll probably go with satellite takeover. This way we get multi-layered defenses for home front in one turn - global surveillance with satellites, local surveillance and defenses with gods

I think that even if we make the pigeons we shouldn't just let them loose. This needs to be systematic to do any good and it needs to be sensitive to the community we're working with.

The first steps should be to become a pillar of support to the council. Not that we need to their toady, but we need them to have a specific sort of image in their heads of Molly. One of a new player rapidly growing into a big fish who is an ideological and material ally. A solid partner who backs up their good intentions with fair actions and will actually talk things out with them. That way when we do scary stuff and start throwing around rhetoric to support it they actually take the time to listen and give the benefit of the doubt.

So we can't afford to make Peabody into a scandal, and we need more involvement in the war to build up brownie points.

There's the obvious combat stuff, but it occurs to me that Harry should already have his anti-venom recipe at this point and we have industrial alchemy production. It would require some legwork but we have the original brewer, red vamp captives, and a hefty number of alchemists to throw at the problem. Even with shelf life complications a steady supply would be provide significant practical value and emotional relief to wizards facing a nation of date rape bat monsters.

It's a bit of a reach, but it'd be excellent if we could make something more generally targeted at supernaturally enhanced chemical influences like this so that we could hand it out as an venom preventative and "coincidentally" undermine Peabody's reach.

uju32 said:
You cannot be as rich and as economically influential as the White Council is without an acute and ongoing corporate understanding of things like demographics. You certainly cannot weaponize economics as they allegedly did against the Red Court without

And we are told and shown, mostly OOC, that prominent wizards understand the world pretty well.

Joseph Listens to Wind goes back to university every couple decades to keep up to date with modern medicine.
Ebenezar McCoy is a space aficionado who introduced Harry to watching satellites during the 2 years he was on the farm.
Donald Morgan was keeping track of US nuclear testing that he had the exact timing to lure a naagloshii into the path of one

The White Council was responsible for keeping the Cold War from going hot, even:

Individual wizards might be ignorant; the White Council isnt.
You dont survive a thousand years as a corporate institution without keeping track of your surroundings.

Dresden is a biased observer, and one who is missing key information, both withheld from him, and which he ignored.
Because he doesnt socialize much among wizards, he doesnt really have a good assessment of Council institutional knowledge. Its always something to keep in mind when reading things from his PoV.

EDIT
Seriously, the trajectory of human population growth has been a matter of discussion for the last century.
China instituted its official One Child policy back in the 1970s, and India had mass sterilization campaigns starting, IIRC, back when Indira Gandhi was PM in the 1970s.

The legacy of India’s quest to sterilise millions of men

In the 1970s, the Indian government was under international pressure to control its population—and took drastic action.

qz.com

This isnt new shit.

Climate change has been a known issue for a long time too and we still struggle to coordinate a response in real life. I don't see support for the idea that there's some secret plan nobody ever bothered to mention to Dresden while he was in the trenches trying to make something work.

DragonParadox · Jul 17, 2024

uju32 said:
You cannot be as rich and as economically influential as the White Council is without an acute and ongoing corporate understanding of things like demographics. You certainly cannot weaponize economics as they allegedly did against the Red Court without

And we are told and shown, mostly OOC, that prominent wizards understand the world pretty well.

Joseph Listens to Wind goes back to university every couple decades to keep up to date with modern medicine.
Ebenezar McCoy is a space aficionado who introduced Harry to watching satellites during the 2 years he was on the farm.
Donald Morgan was keeping track of US nuclear testing that he had the exact timing to lure a naagloshii into the path of one

The White Council was responsible for keeping the Cold War from going hot, even:

Individual wizards might be ignorant; the White Council isnt.
You dont survive a thousand years as a corporate institution without keeping track of your surroundings.

Dresden is a biased observer, and one who is missing key information, both withheld from him, and which he ignored.
Because he doesnt socialize much among wizards, he doesnt really have a good assessment of Council institutional knowledge. Its always something to keep in mind when reading things from his PoV.

EDIT
Seriously, the trajectory of human population growth has been a matter of discussion for the last century.
China instituted its official One Child policy back in the 1970s, and India had mass sterilization campaigns starting, IIRC, back when Indira Gandhi was PM in the 1970s.

The legacy of India’s quest to sterilise millions of men

In the 1970s, the Indian government was under international pressure to control its population—and took drastic action.

qz.com

This isnt new shit.

Some wizards are able to keep up with specialized skills in the modern world, that is not the same thing as wizards as a group being able to play Illuminati with all of human civilization, no one working with just regular human brains, a few hundred to a few thousand people tops, some of them hermits who are not even trying can do that. That said given that Cold War WoG... I think Jim Butcher might think they could because he fundamentally does not understand among other things international relations. The US had always known the Russians were also afraid of all out war. Nixon used Madman Theory.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.