Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

If not the scene, then the bound bird spirits. They were bound by Kemmler, and are held from their final rest by Kemmler's (false) promise. They are, in essence, Kemmler's creations.

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They arent Kemmler's creations.
They are independent creatures that heeded his summons and which he bargained with. But he didnt make them, and I dunno how relevant they are to him as a link.

Besides, if we're really interested in Kemmler, we'd go talk to Old Man Mathews.
Or check out all the places where he was killed(they killed him seven times. Each location will have significance.)

The spirit in front of you is a focus that could be used to find out stuff about Kemmler, the scene could be used to find out more about said spirit

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For clarification:
When you say spirit, are you talking about one of the billions in front of us, or are you referring to the collective as one spirit?

Because I'm averse to burning a near-Incarna as a focus due to curiosity about a guy who is Super Dead and gone.
Especially since there are other foci about Kemmler.

 

[Anaja]

[X] How hard is it to de-extinct a species? Do what they were promised so Lydia can set the poor things to rest

 

[TonedMite]

[X] How hard is it to de-extinct a species? Do what they were promised so Lydia can set the poor things to rest

 

[DragonParadox]

For clarification:
When you say spirit, are you talking about one of the billions in front of us, or are you referring to the collective as one spirit?

Because I'm averse to burning a near-Incarna as a focus due to curiosity about a guy who is Super Dead and gone.
Especially since there are other foci about Kemmler.

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The whole being, it is conceptually one being right now.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Ah, ok. Let me correct a bit then:

[X] Plan Familiar Opportunity
-[X] Use Crown Question on the spirit in front of you to find where other pieces of Kemmler's legacy are located
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find how the spirit views humans
-[X] Activate Empathy excellency, All Things betray (with willpower), and Hellscry Chakra to ease the communication
-[X] Ask the spirits questions:
--[X] Would they be amendable to changes in their bodies, if those changes made it less likely that they would go extinct in the future?
--[X] Do they need to be resurrected all at once, or is a small but steady stream of resurrections ok?
-[X] If they are amendable, work on resurrecting them as natural familiars (Synergy 5 psychic phenomena)
-[X] If not, de-extinction is a worthy cause

Added a question about how the spirit views humans. Just in case it harbors a lot of resentment.

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We should have a deal in place for them before just making them familiars. Their existence would make it more possible to redeem lawbreakers, but it also makes black magic a more valuable tactical tool. People who lean too hard into it without sufficient PC power tend to go insane in unhelpful ways, so bad actors have to play games to use it or accept alternatives from non-human sources that don't necessarily work the same.

I wouldn't want to just release these guys across the country to be exploited for everyone's sake.

Also, we might want to revisit the build for the new purpose. Perhaps have them take geas to represent our deal, then use the points for life extension or some tweaks to their base powers. Personally I'd still like to homebrew something to speed up their Synergy growth, or potentially replace it with powerful conditional magic as a merit so it's more readily baked into their new species.

That way second generation+ birds will maintain the desired powers.

Edit:
Forgot to vote.

[X] Yog

 

[Yog]

'Pieces of his legacy' is very vague, the more specific you get the more likely you are to get something actionable.

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Ok. Would "other caches / traps" work? The intent is to find other traps left behind by Kemmler. Not necessserily other bound spirits, but if he has, say, a cache of nerve gas, a dirty bomb, or a bound raksha ready to go off, I want to know where they are.

Because I'm averse to burning a near-Incarna as a focus due to curiosity about a guy who is Super Dead and gone.
Especially since there are other foci about Kemmler.

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He left behind stuff. Dangerous stuff that we should want to know about.

We should have a deal in place for them before just making them familiars. Their existence would make it more possible to redeem lawbreakers, but it also makes black magic a more valuable tactical tool. People who lean too hard into it without sufficient PC power tend to go insane in unhelpful ways, so bad actors have to play games to use it or accept alternatives from non-human sources that don't necessarily work the same.

I wouldn't want to just release these guys across the country to be exploited for everyone's sake.

Also, we might want to revisit the build for the new purpose. Perhaps have them take geas to represent our deal, then use the points for life extension or some tweaks to their base powers. Personally I'd still like to homebrew something to speed up their Synergy growth, or potentially replace it with powerful conditional magic as a merit so it's more readily baked into their new species.

That way second generation+ birds will maintain the desired powers.

Edit:
Forgot to vote.

[X] Yog

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We would essentially be creating a species of cranial pigeons. A hivemind one. If we establish a good relationship with them as an individual / species (because hivemind makes the distinction mutable) they would be a great asset. I'll definitely revisit the build in a few hours when I get home from work.

But, for the moment - @DragonParadox is what we are discussing possible in principle at least? Essentially we (or at least I) am talking about adding a synergy psychic phenomena as a natural ability to resurrected pigeons. This results in two things:
1) They maintain the sorta hivemind which they seem to have going right now, making them far less likely to go extinct
2) If such pigeon is taken as a familiar by a talented human, they get resistance to Law breaking (as per our previous discussion). This makes them symbiotic to talented humans, also making them less likely to go extinct.

Basically, think D&D cranium rats, but pigeons, in a way.

Is this within the scope of Molly + Lash + Lydia working together and using the power of the spirit here? It's definitely a grand working.

 

[Alratan]

They didnt die of disease, they were hunted to death. Just make sure people arent doing the hunting anymore.
Breeding a starting population in a Sanctuary biome and releasing them into the wild in batches of a couple hundred to a thousand at a time is entirely within our capabilities.

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Won't work. They need to roost and breed in very large numbers for their strategy to work. We'd need to be releasing batches of hundreds of thousands at a time.

[X] How hard is it to de-extinct a species? Do what they were promised so Lydia can set the poor things to rest

But we can give it a go.

 

[Yog]

Won't work. They need to roost and breed in very large numbers for their strategy to work. We'd need to be releasing batches of hundreds of thousands at a time.

[X] How hard is it to de-extinct a species? Do what they were promised so Lydia can set the poor things to rest

But we can give it a go.

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Or we make them able to cooperate with each other on a supernatural level, boosting their survival rate.

 

[DragonParadox]

Ok. Would "other caches / traps" work? The intent is to find other traps left behind by Kemmler. Not necessserily other bound spirits, but if he has, say, a cache of nerve gas, a dirty bomb, or a bound raksha ready to go off, I want to know where they are.

But, for the moment - @DragonParadox is what we are discussing possible in principle at least? Essentially we (or at least I) am talking about adding a synergy psychic phenomena as a natural ability to resurrected pigeons. This results in two things:
1) They maintain the sorta hivemind which they seem to have going right now, making them far less likely to go extinct
2) If such pigeon is taken as a familiar by a talented human, they get resistance to Law breaking (as per our previous discussion). This makes them symbiotic to talented humans, also making them less likely to go extinct.

Basically, think D&D cranium rats, but pigeons, in a way.

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1. Yep, that will give you actionable insight if there is any to be had
2. The hive mind super-fomori works in theory
3. Tying it to a human alas does not work since the familiar in this case would be so much vaster than the human and swallow their minds

 

[uju32]

The whole being, it is conceptually one being right now.

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Thanks.
Yeah, Im going to pass on this.


@Yog
If we want to know about Kemmler, we have alternative sources of information.
Bob used to be his lab assistant.
Old Man Mathews used to be a member of his cult.

There's sufficient foci around, as compared to burning a near-Incarna.

EDIT
Something that comes to mind is that we have forgotten about Evil Bob.
We really should track him down.
And reformat him into something much less hostile to human life than he currently is.

Won't work. They need to roost and breed in very large numbers for their strategy to work. We'd need to be releasing batches of hundreds of thousands at a time.

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This is inaccurate.

That was the status of things in the 19th century, but smaller populations have been historically recorded.
And we have explicit that individual flocks varied in size.
As per Wikipedia:

A 2014 genetic study (based on coalescent theory and on "sequences from most of the genome" of three individual passenger pigeons) suggested that the passenger pigeon population experienced dramatic fluctuations across the last million years, due to their dependence on availability of mast (which itself fluctuates). The study suggested the bird was not always abundant, mainly persisting at around 1/10,000 the amount of the several billions estimated in the 1800s, with vastly larger numbers present during outbreak phases.[58]​[59]​ Some early accounts also suggest that the appearance of flocks in great numbers was an irregular occurrence.[36]​ These large fluctuations in population may have been the result of a disrupted ecosystem and have consisted of outbreak populations much larger than those common in pre-European times.[60]​ The authors of the 2014 genetic study note that a similar analysis of the human population size arrives at an "effective population size" of between 9,000 and 17,000 individuals (or approximately 1/550,000th of the peak total human population size of 7 billion cited in the study).[58]​

For a 2017 genetic study, the authors sequenced the genomes of two additional passenger pigeons, as well as analyzing the mitochondrial DNA of 41 individuals.[61]​[62]​[63]​ This study found evidence that the passenger-pigeon population had been stable for at least the previous 20,000 years.[64]​ The study also found that the size of the passenger pigeon population over that time period was larger than the found in the 2014 genetic study. However, the 2017 study's "conservative" estimate of an "effective population size" of 13 million birds is still only about 1/300th of the bird's estimated historic population of approximately 3–5 billion before their "19th century decline and eventual extinction."[61]​ A similar study inferring human population size from genetics (published in 2008, and using human mitochondrial DNA and Bayesian coalescent inference methods) showed considerable accuracy in reflecting overall patterns of human population growth as compared to data deduced by other means—though the study arrived at a human effective population size (as of 1600 AD, for Africa, Eurasia, and the Americas combined) that was roughly 1/1000 of the census population estimate for the same time and area based on anthropological and historical evidence.[65]​[66]​

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The colonies, which were known as "cities", were immense, ranging from 49 ha (120 acres) to thousands of hectares in size, and were often long and narrow in shape (L-shaped), with a few areas untouched for unknown reasons. Due to the topography, they were rarely continuous. Since no accurate data was recorded, it is not possible to give more than estimates on the size and population of these nesting areas, but most accounts mention colonies containing millions of birds. The largest nesting area ever recorded was in central Wisconsin in 1871; it was reported as covering 2,200 km2 (850 sq mi), with the number of birds nesting there estimated to be around 136,000,000. As well as these "cities", there were regular reports of much smaller flocks or even individual pairs setting up a nesting site.[24][79] The birds do not seem to have formed as vast breeding colonies at the periphery of their range.[36]

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[Yog]

There's sufficient foci around, as compared to burning a near-Incarna.

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What are you going to use it for instead? Because as far as I can see you are just not g9ing to use it at all. Hell, what can you use it for instead? The only meaningful connection it has is Kemmler.

1. Yep, that will give you actionable insight if there is any to be had
2. The hive mind super-fomori works in theory
3. Tying it to a human alas does not work since the familiar in this case would be so much vaster than the human and swallow their minds

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3. Wouldn't bonding with an individual pigeon work? So it's bound to a human instead of a larger hivemind?

 

[DragonParadox]

3. Wouldn't bonding with an individual pigeon work? So it's bound to a human instead of a larger hivemind?

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The hive mind is not opt in, if one of those is established they are not going to want to let go of members.

 

[uju32]

What are you going to use it for instead? Because as far as I can see you are just not g9ing to use it at all. Hell, what can you use it for instead? The only meaningful connection it has is Kemmler.

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Im not sure yet. This is a greater spirit collective thats vergin; if it hangs around we might need any handle on it we can get.
Its like saving money in the bank against future use; you dont know when you'll need it.

There are a LOT of Kemmler foci available to us. Renewable ones, even; Lash and Dresden both have the complete text of The Word of Kemmler committed to memory. Thats not counting scenes with ChaoticNeutral Bob, Evil Bob, Old Man Mathews, the place where Grevane was buried after Ramirez shot him, Demonreach, and so on.

This one is unnecessary, especially since we might need it for something else.

EDIT
If you want to do a Kemmler run? Propose it at the beginning of a turn and we can vote on doing it. Running down foci for it wont be hard; there are a lot of places that felt his touch during WW2. Man was allegedly raising mass graves in Eastern Europe. He had multiple graves, multiple associates. Some of whom are still running around today.

And like I said before, there's at least a good argument for tracking down Evil Bob, and one of our clones has a Gift for doing exactly that.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Ok. Would "other caches / traps" work? The intent is to find other traps left behind by Kemmler. Not necessserily other bound spirits, but if he has, say, a cache of nerve gas, a dirty bomb, or a bound raksha ready to go off, I want to know where they are.

He left behind stuff. Dangerous stuff that we should want to know about.

We would essentially be creating a species of cranial pigeons. A hivemind one. If we establish a good relationship with them as an individual / species (because hivemind makes the distinction mutable) they would be a great asset. I'll definitely revisit the build in a few hours when I get home from work.

But, for the moment - @DragonParadox is what we are discussing possible in principle at least? Essentially we (or at least I) am talking about adding a synergy psychic phenomena as a natural ability to resurrected pigeons. This results in two things:
1) They maintain the sorta hivemind which they seem to have going right now, making them far less likely to go extinct
2) If such pigeon is taken as a familiar by a talented human, they get resistance to Law breaking (as per our previous discussion). This makes them symbiotic to talented humans, also making them less likely to go extinct.

Basically, think D&D cranium rats, but pigeons, in a way.

Is this within the scope of Molly + Lash + Lydia working together and using the power of the spirit here? It's definitely a grand working.

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1. Yep, that will give you actionable insight if there is any to be had
2. The hive mind super-fomori works in theory
3. Tying it to a human alas does not work since the familiar in this case would be so much vaster than the human and swallow their minds

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The hive mind is a reach anyway, the point was the tiny spirits themselves to work with mortal mages. Could we just make them synergy sorcerers by default/use conditional magic to allow only the specific parts we want from the path? Perhaps in exchange for only being able to do so with a bonded partner.

 

[Yog]

The hive mind is not opt in, if one of those is established they are not going to want to let go of members.

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Hmm, OK. Doesn't work as expected, but I think it still works - having such an entity on our side is worth a lot. If nothing else, they should be great spies and messengers.

So, to be clear - making them natural familiars doesn'twork, because to do so would require making them a hivemind, and the hivemind wouldn't want to share, correct? Or would the idea of making them symbiotic to mortal mages work as a separate idea?

The hive mind is a reach anyway, the point was the tiny spirits themselves to work with mortal mages. Could we just make them synergy sorcerers by default/use conditional magic to allow only the specific parts we want from the path? Perhaps in exchange for only being able to do so with a bonded partner.

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Or this, yeah.

Its like saving money in the bank against future use; you dont know when you'll need it.

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No it's not. It doesn't generate interest and is unlikely to be used in the future. It's closer to hoarding in my mind.

 

[DragonParadox]

The hive mind is a reach anyway, the point was the tiny spirits themselves to work with mortal mages. Could we just make them synergy sorcerers by default/use conditional magic to allow only the specific parts we want from the path? Perhaps in exchange for only being able to do so with a bonded partner.

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Sentient familiars would definitely help with both power and control and if the familiar is in charge of the spell it would get around the Law because the Laws are based on free will and the mortal would not be the one willing the thing into existence. It is basically @Yog's previous idea but with a bird.

 

[Sesparra]

[X] Plan Familiar Opportunity

[X] How hard is it to de-extinct a species? Do what they were promised so Lydia can set the poor things to rest

Either of these is fine by me? Like, forging a pigeon incarna would be cool and probably helpful in the long run for eco and strategic reasons, but simply bringing them back from extinction as normal birds is cool too

 

[BronzeTongue]

Sentient familiars would definitely help with both power and control and if the familiar is in charge of the spell it would get around the Law because the Laws are based on free will and the mortal would not be the one willing the thing into existence. It is basically @Yog's precious idea but with a bird.

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Yeah, that's what I was originally trying to get at. We were talking about how to make his synergy spirits at scale and got to mutating chickens or something with a Splendor when the undead pigeon swarm was introduced. They seem like a much more viable target for such a transformation, and being a wand versus being a bird is ultimately not a relevant detail the core mechanics we wanted.

The hive mind seemed like scope creep to me.

 

[Yog]

Yeah, that's what I was originally trying to get at. We were talking about how to make his synergy spirits at scale and got to mutating chickens or something with a Splendor when the undead pigeon swarm was introduced. They seem like a much more viable target for such a transformation, and being a wand versus being a bird is ultimately not a relevant detail the core mechanics we wanted.

The hive mind seemed like scope creep to me.

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It was part a miscommunication, part unavoidable consequence to me - if we give birds synergy, what's stopping them from using it on each other? @DragonParadox how would this work? Some flaw that prevents pigeons from connecting to each other instead of talents?

 

[DragonParadox]

It was part a miscommunication, part unavoidable consequence to me - if we give birds synergy, what's stopping them from using it on each other? @DragonParadox how would this work? Some flaw that prevents pigeons from connecting to each other instead of talents?

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If they are already a hive mind obviously they would not need it, if you just want to make sapient pigeons (which you can) they can use psychic powers normally assuming the right merits.

 

[Nyarky]

Because I'm averse to burning a near-Incarna as a focus due to curiosity about a guy who is Super Dead and gone.
Especially since there are other foci about Kemmler.

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Then at least ask a question, any question.

More information is always good.

That is true for every single vote to not do so too, a focus is worth nothing if not used, and this thing is very much a focus, a temporary one at that, making not using it a gigantic waste.

You don't know what you don't know, so the first step is to know.

[x] Yog

 

[Yog]

If they are already a hive mind obviously they would not need it, if you just want to make sapient pigeons (which you can) they can use psychic powers normally assuming the right merits.

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Ok, I am clearly communicating this very badly. Let's try again:
1) Before the last update we were discussing an idea of how to make something akin to Harry Potter style wands - devices which would, in practice, shield the user from corruptive influence of Law violations, while also providing some (small) bonuses to magic use.

2) The mechanical way to do this I proposed was to make simple (1 dot arcana equivalent) spirits. Those spirits were specifically designed to be non-sapient. Animal intelligence level, with instinctual bonding to people as expression of Synergy Psychic Phenomena.

3) The way to mass-produce these I proposed (not sure how legal it would have been) was to make a transformation fascination splendor that would convert sacrificial animals to simple spirits. I proposed feeding it chicken.

4) In this update, we are presented with a collective (yet still consisting of separate sub-spirits) spirit of an extinct pigeon species. This certainly looks like fate in light of what we discussed before that.

5) The idea, then, is to grant pigeons the ability, and perhaps natural inclination to bond with magic users, to serve as symbionts, protecting them from Law corruption, while receiving food, shelter, etc. Mechanically this can be done via Synergy effect.

There was no suggestion (that I see) about making pigeons sapient (or at least human-level sapient). Maybe smarter, like a dog? Birds can be scary smart normally.

6) The hivemind idea arose naturally from previous point, as a consequence of it. If you have a species with natural Synergy psychic talent, then, if nothing is stopping them from combining into gestalts with each other, they would naturally form gestalts as survival habit. It would not necessarily be one overmind, but collectives of pigeons. This wasn't the intended effect - this was a foreseen consequence.

 

[DragonParadox]

Ok, I am clearly communicating this very badly. Let's try again:
1) Before the last update we were discussing an idea of how to make something akin to Harry Potter style wands - devices which would, in practice, shield the user from corruptive influence of Law violations, while also providing some (small) bonuses to magic use.

2) The mechanical way to do this I proposed was to make simple (1 dot arcana equivalent) spirits. Those spirits were specifically designed to be non-sapient. Animal intelligence level, with instinctual bonding to people as expression of Synergy Psychic Phenomena.

3) The way to mass-produce these I proposed (not sure how legal it would have been) was to make a transformation fascination splendor that would convert sacrificial animals to simple spirits. I proposed feeding it chicken.

4) In this update, we are presented with a collective (yet still consisting of separate sub-spirits) spirit of an extinct pigeon species. This certainly looks like fate in light of what we discussed before that.

5) The idea, then, is to grant pigeons the ability, and perhaps natural inclination to bond with magic users, to serve as symbionts, protecting them from Law corruption, while receiving food, shelter, etc. Mechanically this can be done via Synergy effect.

There was no suggestion (that I see) about making pigeons sapient (or at least human-level sapient). Maybe smarter, like a dog? Birds can be scary smart normally.

6) The hivemind idea arose naturally from previous point, as a consequence of it. If you have a species with natural Synergy psychic talent, then, if nothing is stopping them from combining into gestalts with each other, they would naturally form gestalts as survival habit. It would not necessarily be one overmind, but collectives of pigeons. This wasn't the intended effect - this was a foreseen consequence.

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Ahh... I see sorry for taking so long to catch on to this, the heat's half melted my brain just about

The issue here is that if you make a pigeon a mechanism for the using magic it will slowly slowly become sapient. The mage is repeatedly delegating their executive function to the familiar, or the item etc... so that will eventually develop a will.

 

[BronzeTongue]

It was part a miscommunication, part unavoidable consequence to me - if we give birds synergy, what's stopping them from using it on each other? @DragonParadox how would this work? Some flaw that prevents pigeons from connecting to each other instead of talents?

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Regular psychics don't become a hive mind when they have this sort of ability they commune with each other but their identities don't meld. I don't see why this is a concern.

Frankly I think the familiar spirits should be limited to just their partner, but that's another issue.

Ahh... I see sorry for taking so long to catch on to this, the heat's half melted my brain just about

The issue here is that if you make a pigeon a mechanism for the using magic it will slowly slowly become sapient. The mage is repeatedly delegating their executive function to the familiar, or the item etc... so that will eventually develop a will.

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Would this still present the problem of crushing mortal minds if they try to link up to perform magic you mentioned earlier?

Them being sapient isn't really a problem for this, and having it develop slowly as part of their symbiosis is itself an interesting narrative anyway.

 

[Yog]

Ahh... I see sorry for taking so long to catch on to this, the heat's half melted my brain just about

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No problem, the heat has been killing me too.

The issue here is that if you make a pigeon a mechanism for the using magic it will slowly slowly become sapient. The mage is repeatedly delegating their executive function to the familiar, or the item etc... so that will eventually develop a will.

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I don't really see this as a problem. While yes, this could lead to pigeon dark lords or some such silliness, by itself it's not an issue, and an advantage to the pigeons, so why not?

Do I need to alter my vote, or is the intent clear enough?

Regular psychics don't become a hive mind when they have this sort of ability they commune with each other but their identities don't meld. I don't see why this is a concern.

Frankly I think the familiar spirits should be limited to just their partner, but that's another issue.

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Yeah, as I said, miscommunication on my part.