- Location
- Dallas Texas
Just want to ask, I looked only briefly at the 7 burning seas stuff briefly a while ago, what twisted corruption of the Yozi is reflected through this intense Law theaming of that Hell?
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Do you have something specific for citation most of my information is from Graceful Wicked Masques. A lot of the information is in the flowery text that I'm translating but it's really difficult to feel like I'm misinterpreting the fact that Creation was described as the death of time-not.
The creation of Directions makes sense because things like Shinmaic calibration and communion exist then there's the fact that Autobot maybe made the elemental poles which would Define Direction inherently because the elemental pole of Earth is the center of creation and thus the Wyld as well.
- Location
- Dallas Texas
Hmm, the way I like to think of it is if the Primordials are what created the standard 'Laws of Physics' for creation and creation-adjacent existences, the Shinma created the Metaphysics that allows physics to be defined. For example the Shinma of Location didn't create Direction, he created the concept of 'Object A and Object B can be in different places, in between which may exist something else'. From there Autocthon may have created the cardinal directions which make up 3d space and enforced it as a single stable expression of location. Beforehand 'Location' would have still existed, but how to move from point A to point B was ill defined, could be literally anything in the wyld, in a sense that defy logical human thought.
By the same token, the Shinma of Communication didnt invent language, it created the concept of two descreet existances being able to transfer information.
Or the Shinma of Conflict didnt invent violence, it created the concept that Existance A could reduce Existance B
The way I've seen it theorized best is that the Shinma basically dictate how essence patterns can function, with the understanding that at its most base level all things are composed of essence. Like, The Shinma of Existence says 'Essence Patterns Can Exist', the Shinma of Identity says 'Essence Patters Can All Be Different', the Shinma of Decays say 'Essense Patterns Change and Lessen', and so on. It is from these axioms that the Primordials gave clearer definition into 'Laws of Physics'
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So, to clarify, we don't know / we weren't told that Arawn sold his kingdom to Mab when he entered her service?
Time-not was ended by Advaita Iraivan, and it had nothing to do with Creation
The banishment of Time Not was accomplished by
Advaita Iraivan. Indeed, without Advaita Iraivan, there
would be no existence or anything other than Time Not,
for Advaita Iraivan is the shinma that defines the principle
of separation. Its most important separation pulled apart its
own ignorance from awareness, allowing it to understand its
component selves and to recognize in itself a distinct whole
separate from things that were not Advaita Iraivan. This
awareness allowed Advaita Iraivan to separate itself entirely
from Time Not, which then enabled it to distinguish all the
distinct, manifold elements of which Time Not consisted.
The greatest elements that Advaita Iraivan separated from
Time Not were the other shinma, each of equal vastness and
power. Each shinma defined some principle of existence that
was simple to express but infinite in application. Among them
were Nirakara, which defines the principle of shape; Nirguna,
which defines the qualities of existence; Nirvishesha, which
defines the principle of identity; Nirvikalpa, which defines
the principle of communication; Nishkriya, which defines
the principle of conflict; Nirupadhika, which defines the
principles of space and location; and Dharma, which defines
the principles of corrosion, ignorance and desire.
It is a misconception of some raksha—and some
Creation-born philosophers who struggle to understand the
shinma—that Advaita Iraivan was the "first" shinma or that it
somehow "created" the other shinma. Advaita Iraivan cannot
create anything, it can only separate and recognize differ-
ences. It did not create the other shinma, it only separated
out the ignorance that kept the shinma from recognizing
their own existences. It did not come into existence itself
first, because the recognition of separations that Advaita
Iraivan performed did not take place in a frame of time. Its
every separation happened simultaneously—including the
separation between one moment and the next. Only then was
Time Not truly banished. Only then did time itself exist in
any conceivable sense.
Advaita Iraivan. Indeed, without Advaita Iraivan, there
would be no existence or anything other than Time Not,
for Advaita Iraivan is the shinma that defines the principle
of separation. Its most important separation pulled apart its
own ignorance from awareness, allowing it to understand its
component selves and to recognize in itself a distinct whole
separate from things that were not Advaita Iraivan. This
awareness allowed Advaita Iraivan to separate itself entirely
from Time Not, which then enabled it to distinguish all the
distinct, manifold elements of which Time Not consisted.
The greatest elements that Advaita Iraivan separated from
Time Not were the other shinma, each of equal vastness and
power. Each shinma defined some principle of existence that
was simple to express but infinite in application. Among them
were Nirakara, which defines the principle of shape; Nirguna,
which defines the qualities of existence; Nirvishesha, which
defines the principle of identity; Nirvikalpa, which defines
the principle of communication; Nishkriya, which defines
the principle of conflict; Nirupadhika, which defines the
principles of space and location; and Dharma, which defines
the principles of corrosion, ignorance and desire.
It is a misconception of some raksha—and some
Creation-born philosophers who struggle to understand the
shinma—that Advaita Iraivan was the "first" shinma or that it
somehow "created" the other shinma. Advaita Iraivan cannot
create anything, it can only separate and recognize differ-
ences. It did not create the other shinma, it only separated
out the ignorance that kept the shinma from recognizing
their own existences. It did not come into existence itself
first, because the recognition of separations that Advaita
Iraivan performed did not take place in a frame of time. Its
every separation happened simultaneously—including the
separation between one moment and the next. Only then was
Time Not truly banished. Only then did time itself exist in
any conceivable sense.
Molly did not ask IC.
So, it occurs to me that our small circle already is well positioned for the acts of Creation. Molly as Malfeas's heir and Primordial to come to provide the power, and energy and the shape of things. Tiffany, as life-specializing angel who might have memories of the making of this universe to shape life and provide the direction and experience. Lydia as the exigent of Death to shape the afterlife, the chilling touch of the Void that removes unnecessary and obsolete things. Even Harry (who I am still almost sure is supposed to have a soul destined for Sidereal exaltation), as a wizard, contributes to the working.
And we have source code compliance protocol for extra oomph.
And we have source code compliance protocol for extra oomph.
- Location
- Germany
If I remember correctly, Lydia now has her Companions of the Hunter Charm, right?
I looked up the base-stats of a large dog, like an Irish Wolfhound in V20 (ExWod has only the physical stats):
Large Dog (German Shepherd, Great Dane, etc.)
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Survival (Tracking) 3 [Empathy 2, Intimidation 3, Stealth 2]
Willpower: 5,
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
Physically he's already as good as am moderately trained human fighter, 6 dice to attack, 5 for damage.
Of course the lack of intelligence and weapons makes them less dangerous, but still.
@DragonParadox
One problem, animal statblocks don't have Social Stats, since they aren't really supposed to use those with humans.
But G&D has some interesting social abilities for monsters, including difficulty-reducers for social activities.
Where would you put a dog's base socials?
Something like Charisma 2, Manipulation 1, Appearance 3?
For 30 XP and 8 Points of Gods&Monsters abilities, there's some room for good minions.
For example a social build with this:
Alternativly, buy up DEX some more and add these:
You could also make a tank, with Soak Lethal or Aggravated and Armor, but I wouldn't recommend starting with a Dog on that.
Horses for example have more base-Stamina and you can fit heavier mundane armor on them, in addition to the supernatural enhancements.
I looked up the base-stats of a large dog, like an Irish Wolfhound in V20 (ExWod has only the physical stats):
Large Dog (German Shepherd, Great Dane, etc.)
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Survival (Tracking) 3 [Empathy 2, Intimidation 3, Stealth 2]
Willpower: 5,
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
Physically he's already as good as am moderately trained human fighter, 6 dice to attack, 5 for damage.
Of course the lack of intelligence and weapons makes them less dangerous, but still.
@DragonParadox
One problem, animal statblocks don't have Social Stats, since they aren't really supposed to use those with humans.
But G&D has some interesting social abilities for monsters, including difficulty-reducers for social activities.
Where would you put a dog's base socials?
Something like Charisma 2, Manipulation 1, Appearance 3?
For 30 XP and 8 Points of Gods&Monsters abilities, there's some room for good minions.
For example a social build with this:
Add some Leadership and Charisma from the XP, and you have an incredibly cute giant dog who can either serve as icebreaker in any human encounter, or lead a small pack into combat through his natural dominance over his own species.
Alternativly, buy up DEX some more and add these:
Hits hard and several times per turn.
You could also make a tank, with Soak Lethal or Aggravated and Armor, but I wouldn't recommend starting with a Dog on that.
Horses for example have more base-Stamina and you can fit heavier mundane armor on them, in addition to the supernatural enhancements.
I'd say Appearance varies the most, but 2 is average, charisma is basically the measure of how personable they are so for any dog that Lydia picked up it would be 3 since she wants a friendlier than average dog for all the weird people and places they are going to be seeing and finally manipulation 1 seems good.
You are correct true time-not was ended by the Shinma Advaita Iraivan's Act of infinite separation. Though I don't know what to call the period that comes after because it's just called after because time exists after that point but is completely ignorable there are no consequences nothing changes existence is whatever everything in the Wyld makes of it there's no death there's no anything anyone would consider recognizable yet.
That's why I still call it time not because time exists as a concept completely impotently also there are no consequences or histories yet as well as the fact that infinitudes and infinitesimals so great and so small can be Rewritten on a whim and everything Remains the Same.
Then the primordials make Yu Shan and Creation.
The raksha did not take notice of what the Primordials were about until a great contingent of those malcontents harnessed a number of shinma, pulled a section of the Wyld around themselves and suddenly disappeared from the raksha's awareness. This disappearance altered the Wyld in a way that the raksha could no longer define, unsettling them deeply. The Primordials who had not disappeared tried to explain what a wonder they had wrought. They named the place where the others had gone "Yu-Shan" and spoke about their wonderful new Games of Divinity. But of what use were such things to the raksha, who had all of the Wyld to play in? The raksha knew only that the Primordials had wrought an unpleasant change in the fabric of things, a change the Primordials would not—perhaps could not—undo.
The worst, of course, was still to come, and it came too quickly for the raksha to prepare.
Extruding an infinitely long fiber of solid reality from their newly hidden game parlor, the Primordials enwrapped a broad swath of pristine Wyld and choked it into an ugly, static abomination. The raksha could only look on in horror as the Primordials' Creation took shape, killing off the Wyld's potential and variety in that region. They could only watch helplessly as several of their number were trapped in the center of this expanding Creation and driven into a slumber that extinguished their sentient awareness. As it was finished, the vast shinma known as Nirakara yielded up an aspect of itself to define the boundaries of this Creation, marking it out as a place with a definite shape. Within that place and because of it, time became a constant with a regularized flow, rather than the loose ordering of distinct moments it had been thus far. No more could the raksha selectively ignore the flow of time as they once had. Thus did the framework of history impose itself upon their consciousness.
Alas, the raksha reacted too slowly to interrupt the formation of this chancre of hateful stability in their perfect Wyld.
The worst, of course, was still to come, and it came too quickly for the raksha to prepare.
Extruding an infinitely long fiber of solid reality from their newly hidden game parlor, the Primordials enwrapped a broad swath of pristine Wyld and choked it into an ugly, static abomination. The raksha could only look on in horror as the Primordials' Creation took shape, killing off the Wyld's potential and variety in that region. They could only watch helplessly as several of their number were trapped in the center of this expanding Creation and driven into a slumber that extinguished their sentient awareness. As it was finished, the vast shinma known as Nirakara yielded up an aspect of itself to define the boundaries of this Creation, marking it out as a place with a definite shape. Within that place and because of it, time became a constant with a regularized flow, rather than the loose ordering of distinct moments it had been thus far. No more could the raksha selectively ignore the flow of time as they once had. Thus did the framework of history impose itself upon their consciousness.
Alas, the raksha reacted too slowly to interrupt the formation of this chancre of hateful stability in their perfect Wyld.
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Yeah, but Molly isn't always going to be available as a taxi service. If we can set up last station equivalents in multiple cities then link them to one pocket dimension then our minions could travel at pretty significant speeds. Most supernatural factions can use at least some ways, but they're usually more of a pain in the ass than that to use.
Being able to sell tickets to other people is no small thing either; even setting aside their main job, the fey get away with a lot of shit because they control the majority of nevernever territory near earth. So if you want to use fast travel cheats you either need to walk through their land or stray near enough to it that they can ruin your day if they want.
Getting in on that action would be valuable.
Really?
Cause the books make it seem an awful lot like religious faith. The definition of what gives you a good faith score is pretty explicitly religious, and it transforms from whatever it used to be in to something oriented on the demon once you sign a pact.
They can harvest small portions of it from randoms by confronting them with the truth of their nature, and unwillingly inspiring some belief in doing so.
It's not like the base game is shy about religious concepts, and giving faith doesn't mechanically draw on any other sort of supernatural power.
From my perspective this feels a lot like trying to make willpower into something other than willpower.
Mostly the relationship between the shinma and primordials, because other lore describes things exactly in those areas as stuff that they invented or were bound to their natures.
The Wyld wasn't, as I understood it, supposed to have any laws but what you made yourself. The secret third level metaphysics seems to contradict that.
The direction thing I'm talking about is the bridge to nowhere that @Yog brought up earlier:
So well prior to creation there was no such thing as direction, and autobot had to make a reference point. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I'd have thought something like the shinma would come up here if they were a thing already at that point.
If anything this sounds like the big guy making something in that category himself.
It's possible I simply missed a beat entirely here, but this reads like multiple writers retconning lore on top of each others' work as they each have a neat new idea about how things got started.
The stuff attributed to the shinma sounds like things that I expected every being had to do for itself prior to the primordials, and the way the term is reused for the special gate you go through to enter reality from the wyld makes more sense in that light.
The counterpoint is Earthbound, they are called out as needing genuine religious devotion and ritual, that is one of their limitation compared to the later day Fallen. The Earthbound are so alien to humanity that for a mortal to put their faith in them they must subsume themselves utterly with debased rites, whereas their later kin just need a soul-to-soul connection which they can get with a simple handshake to harvest faith. Some of them do make it religious but it is called out as not being necessary.
- Location
- Germany
Okay, then I have two potential dog-builds for Lydia's pack:
And one war-horse, in tanky:
You could also build a fast-moving Horse with the Speed and Wings advantages, but frankly for raw speed either mundane vehicles or her Earthwave will be better.
Also something to think about would be turning a bird into a decent spy.
Supernatural senses and stealth-abilities are available.
Irish Wolfhound (Goodest Boy)
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3, Charisma 4, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Survival (Tracking) 3 Empathy 3, Intimidation 3, Leadership 3, Stealth 2
Willpower: 5,
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
30 XP
Charisma: 3->4 (12 XP)
Leadership: 0->3 (12 XP)
Empathy: 2->3 (6 XP)
Special Advantages (8 Points):
Dominance (1 pt.)You have a naturally commanding demeanor, or an elevated place in the social hierarchy of your people or species. Therefore, you gain three additional dice to any Social interaction within the appropriate groups, and also reduce the difficulties for your Intimidation or Leadership rolls by –2.
Aww! (4 pts.) Cuteness excuses a multitude of sins. In your case, you're so adorable that people tend to give you more slack than your activities deserve. Every point in this Advantage adds one die to the Social rolls you make based upon endearing yourself to someone through your sheer cuteness.
Healing Lick (3pts. Version) In legend and in fact, animals can lick wounds in order to soothe the pain. Certain beasts, however, can do more than that: Their licking actually heals cuts, burns, and so forth. With this Advantage, you can repair a certain amount of external damage — gashes, slashes, and the like, as opposed to venom or broken bones. For three points, you can heal one health level of bashing or lethal damage per turn of licking; for six points, you can heal a level of aggravated damage the same way. In both cases, that healing also eases the pain of injuries, spreading a sense of calm along with the obvious relief from torn tissues and flowing blood.
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3, Charisma 4, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Survival (Tracking) 3 Empathy 3, Intimidation 3, Leadership 3, Stealth 2
Willpower: 5,
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
30 XP
Charisma: 3->4 (12 XP)
Leadership: 0->3 (12 XP)
Empathy: 2->3 (6 XP)
Special Advantages (8 Points):
Dominance (1 pt.)You have a naturally commanding demeanor, or an elevated place in the social hierarchy of your people or species. Therefore, you gain three additional dice to any Social interaction within the appropriate groups, and also reduce the difficulties for your Intimidation or Leadership rolls by –2.
Aww! (4 pts.) Cuteness excuses a multitude of sins. In your case, you're so adorable that people tend to give you more slack than your activities deserve. Every point in this Advantage adds one die to the Social rolls you make based upon endearing yourself to someone through your sheer cuteness.
Healing Lick (3pts. Version) In legend and in fact, animals can lick wounds in order to soothe the pain. Certain beasts, however, can do more than that: Their licking actually heals cuts, burns, and so forth. With this Advantage, you can repair a certain amount of external damage — gashes, slashes, and the like, as opposed to venom or broken bones. For three points, you can heal one health level of bashing or lethal damage per turn of licking; for six points, you can heal a level of aggravated damage the same way. In both cases, that healing also eases the pain of injuries, spreading a sense of calm along with the obvious relief from torn tissues and flowing blood.
Irish Wolfhound, Good boy to have on your side
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3, Charisma 3, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Awareness, 1, Brawl 4, Survival (Tracking) 3 Empathy 2, Intimidation 3, Stealth 2
Willpower: 6
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
30 XP
Dexterity: 3->4 12 XP
Willpower: 5->6 5XP
Brawl: 3->4 9XP
Awareness: 0->1 3XP
Special Advantages (8 Points):
Alacrity (4 pts.) Damn, you're fast! Capable of bursts of inhuman speed, you can strike before most people can think. Each two points spent in this Advantage, up to the maximum six points, allows you to spend a Willpower point and take one extra action within a single turn. That six-point Advantage, for instance, would let you act four times in a single turn for the cost of one Willpower point. Subsequent Willpower points spent that turn do not add up, however; six points let you act four times in one turn no matter how many Willpower points you spent that turn. This bonus lasts only one turn per point of Willpower spent that turn; if you need to burn Willpower in order to move like the wind, however, you can do so for as long as your Willpower lasts.
Needleteeth (3 pts.) Thanks to strong, sharp teeth and powerful jaws, you can bite through up to three levels of armor when chowing down on prey. This Advantage enhances biting attacks only, and leaves gaping, bloody wounds behind.
Blending (1 pt.)This creature has the ability to alter their appearance to match the dominant attributes of their surroundings, much like a chameleon. Creatures with this power can either slowly acclimate to their surroundings, requiring at least a scene, or they may quickly acclimate through a successful Wits + Survival roll, difficulty 8. Creatures with either Quintessence or Gnosis may spend a point to immediately blend into their environment. Successfully Blending causes a +2 difficulty to perceive the creature with any natural sense.
Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3, Charisma 3, Manipulation 1, Appearance 2, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Awareness, 1, Brawl 4, Survival (Tracking) 3 Empathy 2, Intimidation 3, Stealth 2
Willpower: 6
Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Bite for five dice; claw for four dice
30 XP
Dexterity: 3->4 12 XP
Willpower: 5->6 5XP
Brawl: 3->4 9XP
Awareness: 0->1 3XP
Special Advantages (8 Points):
Alacrity (4 pts.) Damn, you're fast! Capable of bursts of inhuman speed, you can strike before most people can think. Each two points spent in this Advantage, up to the maximum six points, allows you to spend a Willpower point and take one extra action within a single turn. That six-point Advantage, for instance, would let you act four times in a single turn for the cost of one Willpower point. Subsequent Willpower points spent that turn do not add up, however; six points let you act four times in one turn no matter how many Willpower points you spent that turn. This bonus lasts only one turn per point of Willpower spent that turn; if you need to burn Willpower in order to move like the wind, however, you can do so for as long as your Willpower lasts.
Needleteeth (3 pts.) Thanks to strong, sharp teeth and powerful jaws, you can bite through up to three levels of armor when chowing down on prey. This Advantage enhances biting attacks only, and leaves gaping, bloody wounds behind.
Blending (1 pt.)This creature has the ability to alter their appearance to match the dominant attributes of their surroundings, much like a chameleon. Creatures with this power can either slowly acclimate to their surroundings, requiring at least a scene, or they may quickly acclimate through a successful Wits + Survival roll, difficulty 8. Creatures with either Quintessence or Gnosis may spend a point to immediately blend into their environment. Successfully Blending causes a +2 difficulty to perceive the creature with any natural sense.
And one war-horse, in tanky:
Large Horse (Stallion, Clydesdale, etc.)
Attributes: Strength 6, Dexterity 2, Stamina 5, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 2
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2
Willpower: 4,
Health Levels: OK, OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Trample or kick for seven dice; bite for three
30XP:
Dexterity: 2->4 20XP
Athletics 3->4 9XP
1 Left over
Special Advantages:
Soak Aggravated Damage (5 pts.)As with Soak Lethal Damage, above, you can soak both lethal and aggravated damage.
Armor (3 Pts)Thanks to thick hide, armored plates, warty skin or some other form of innate protection, your character gains extra soak dice, and can soak lethal damage as well. For double the usual cost — that is, two freebie points per point of protection — she can soak aggravated damage, too. This armor isn't invisible, though; in most cases, it's pretty obvious, and for every three points in protection, the character loses one point of Appearance. (This penalty does not apply to animals or beasts with natural armor — turtles, alligators, dragons, and so forth.) As an optional rule, the Storyteller might decide that an aimed blow (typically +3 difficulty, although the specific penalty depends upon the nature of the armor) can bypass that protection.
Attributes: Strength 6, Dexterity 2, Stamina 5, Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 2
Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl 3, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2
Willpower: 4,
Health Levels: OK, OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
Attack: Trample or kick for seven dice; bite for three
30XP:
Dexterity: 2->4 20XP
Athletics 3->4 9XP
1 Left over
Special Advantages:
Soak Aggravated Damage (5 pts.)As with Soak Lethal Damage, above, you can soak both lethal and aggravated damage.
Armor (3 Pts)Thanks to thick hide, armored plates, warty skin or some other form of innate protection, your character gains extra soak dice, and can soak lethal damage as well. For double the usual cost — that is, two freebie points per point of protection — she can soak aggravated damage, too. This armor isn't invisible, though; in most cases, it's pretty obvious, and for every three points in protection, the character loses one point of Appearance. (This penalty does not apply to animals or beasts with natural armor — turtles, alligators, dragons, and so forth.) As an optional rule, the Storyteller might decide that an aimed blow (typically +3 difficulty, although the specific penalty depends upon the nature of the armor) can bypass that protection.
You could also build a fast-moving Horse with the Speed and Wings advantages, but frankly for raw speed either mundane vehicles or her Earthwave will be better.
Also something to think about would be turning a bird into a decent spy.
Supernatural senses and stealth-abilities are available.
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Well from my understanding the shinma existed before discriptors of things in the Wyld with about as much defining power as a wet fart until the primordials harnessed them. There are essentially tools that fall into the hands of the over God of Craftsman and he gets to work with them.
For reliable fast travel on mass it probably easier to just skip the Ways entirely. Molly can Dig a Tunnel 10K long everyday. Have the FFCF install a rapid movement train, recreate the Blazing Chariot spell. Get the Infernal Sorcery booster charm, then a custom charm to start blessing the FFCF people with sorcery enlightenment, or have the FFCF setup a teleportation network they do have the knowledge. Their are many many options, it more a matter of what to go for.
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It's important to note that the Graceful Wicked Masques - The Fair Folk book itself says the following:
That seems like a matter of degree to me. Worshipping something and having religious veneration for it aren't the same thing as performing extensive rituals for it.
Micheal isn't a worshipper of the white god on the basis of how often he goes to church, it's a state of being and investment of faith in an ideal/individual.
It just seems weird to me that faith score is a specific thing you get from religious belief, like say being a devout Buddhist, then you make a deal and suddenly the points convert into a demon only thing but somehow that isn't supposed mean anything about the person.
If you spend your willpower on something represents exerting mental energy and it makes your character more exhausted/mentally vulnerable. Burning permanent willpower makes you weaker willed on a narrative level.
It seems like investing your Faith in something should involve investing your faith in something. Rather than being this odd one out that has everything about how it's generated and changed by use married to the narrative before a pact, but selectively divorced from it afterwards.
A possible idea for what to use the well for - depending on how it works conceptually, we might be able to use it as a halfway station between Creation and Sanctuary. Sanctuary is too far away from Creation for even Calibration Gate to target, but we might be able to make a stable pocket of reality somewhere in the middle between the two, and use that as an intermediary point.
... Just as long as it doesn't turn into a desert that one has to walk for five days or something.
... Just as long as it doesn't turn into a desert that one has to walk for five days or something.
I get where you are coming from with the scale and it is certainly not 'mental effort', in counterpoint:
- The EXvsWoD book has to say on the matter: All Exalted have high faith potential and all of them can make bargains, there is no mention of 'hey your Solar might have an issue engaging offering their devotion to another being' in the same way it is sing-posted when it comes to other demon lords, it is couched as soul potential which the Fallen would be very interested in.
- The Fallen themselves in canon WoD did not start their rebellion by asking to be worshiped, that was I'd say about mid-way down the degeneration into 'demons', initially they came as teachers and allies and yet they could use their powers perfectly fine, so they must have been getting Faith even at their best.
Vote closed.
At the end of the day faith isn't worship. Faith is belief. Faith is trust.
I wasn't trying to suggest faith and willpower are the same, but draw a comparison in how basically no other stat is selectively divorced like this. Your willpower is your willpower, strength is strength, they're basically what they say on the tin.
Faith dots representing the faith of the mortal and representing that functionally at all times, up to conversion to demon specific value when a pact is made, with the exception of any narrative consequence to the mortal's particular relationship with their faith is really off. Especially because this exact sort of thing is a major theme DtF explores.
To my eye it undercuts a lot of what these pacts are if the good being traded has no real value or consequence to the mortal selling it. Sure there's the terms of thralldom, but very little about that is truly distinct from any other sort of basic supernatural pact. In some ways it's less than they are.
A good example is that fey who Molly talked to before killing Iku, the one who showed off the love for people's favorite songs that she'd been buying off mortals. They didn't sell their love for music and then keep it afterwards. It's certainly possible to get screwed over in a way that leaves them with debt magic to hold over your head and to have lost stuff like this.
These are different types of supernatural being, but the comparison helps highlight the weirdness here.
I don't think it's intentional for DtF to treat mortal faith as something insignificant to have or to take up. Sure there's the consequences of a demon having access to your soul, but that doesn't change how this angle on things makes the act of trading away faith itself less impactful on the party selling it than hawking your taste for garage bands to a minor fey living in a local pond.
As to how that squares with the early demon lore; not asking isn't the same as not receiving.
As I understand it we're basically talking visitations during an age when Heaven was actually throwing around miracles and the fallen were regularly throwing around divine power. They persuaded humans to turn from the white god and embrace their vision for what humans should become and how they'd get there.
I don't see anything about humanity being involved in the leadership process, so it seems a lot like a leap of faith in which the humans of the time basically surrendered their future to the fallen in the face of god's active displeasure.
It's enough to qualify for prayer eating at least.
Arc 12 Post 10: The Answer Within
The Answer Within
23st of January 2007 A.D.
Rather than dive in head, tempting as that may be, you decide to see if anyone still in the city still knows about the Well. All you need is a big list of people, a census that fits. Alas 1930, the most recent public survey does not cut it. Is breaking into Government files habit-forming? Not really a question to ask aloud, it might scare off Olivia. So while you have IRIS and co dive into whatever kind of cyber-crime that is you set your mind to a more curious matter. How does one set foot into a place meant to be malleable as clay while bearing a soul bright as furnace fire?
***
The City of Journeys hums with life comings and goings of uncounted millions racing across lines of lightning under the watchful eye of dozens of machine minds, the home of the brave and the bold, explorers and visionaries. Also the home of dive bars hanging over the lip of a disaffected mass elevator, the music echoing ominously into the metallic depths. According to IRIS the present abode of an old friend. The harsh bitter scent of Polly-A hits your nostrils, complex cocktails of synthetic arsenic molecules flavored with phantom necrosis the way common spices are with heat. A particularly sinuous scaled mostly human man dances in a levitation cylinder enraptured by his art as a robotic figure sporting sixteen triple jointed arms tends bar with a speed and efficiently that hints more at SUTRA control than heavy augments.
Essence Restored to Full (Inner World Regeneration)
"Hello, I'm looking for Flick," you announce in Journey Tongue with the local accent, another nifty little benefit of being who you are. Granted your clothes look starkly foreign, but this is an experimental part of town, new ascetic movements rub shoulders with ecstatics, vid artists with heterodox sorcerers.
There's a soft shine and a ripple of light along the glass bar that stoops at the elbows of a white haired woman in heavy augments, one eye entirely covered by custom implants snaking like conduits across her face, the other replaced with an orange stone, citrine by the looks of things, filled with fine arcane circuitry. Her bodysuit appears to have been fully integrated, the mark of either deep affinity for machine-minds, highly specialized work in hostile environments, or as you know to be the case with her, both.
"Well, got a leech in your mouth? Spit it out." Sometimes, very, very rarely you regret your particular form of intelectus. You could have done without the knowledge that there is a particular species of leech in t he lower Sunderstone Tangles that that consumes and replaces the tongue of its salamander hosts, never mind that the Tongue Snatch Worm occasionally gets confused as it finds its way into the mouths of humans who do not appreciate the trade.
"I have a good test case for the Deep Insertion Autonomous Carapace System you have been working on," you answer simply.
"Who told you about that?" Her eyes do not narrow, she had not bothered retaining that functionality into her augments, but a trio of glimmering robotic moths emerge from her jacket and land on her gloved hand, flittering in agitation, every one of them networked into her brain via direct wireless connection. One has to be a little excentric to take up long term study missions in the howling wastes and Flick here is infamously so even in that company.
"IRIS told me..."
"Nah, you're lying faster than you're breathing, IRIS is working with..." she stops, takes another look at you. For this outing you had not changed much of your appearance, not height, build or much of the shape of your face, just shifted your skin tone to a sort of pale blue that was in fashion this moon-turn and turned your newly black hair into corkscrews on either side of your face.
"Behemoth piss, you are her aren't you?"
The question so unlike the deluge of panicking apologies you had been bracing to abate, startles a laugh out of you along with the nod. "Guilty as charged, how d'you know?"
"Because you are registering like you were just born and someone flash grew you like cabbage in addition to being a TBH come to life, you know Theoretical Baseline Human. You could just be someone from Beyond, but that didn't explain the little voice in the back of my brain telling me to bow and scrape."
"You don't listen to that voice very often do you?" you ask, amusement still a warmth in your chest.
"If I listened to it I would have made my father proud and become a long order cook. Then where would you be Your Majesty?" Flick asks cheekily.
"Having to build my own suit," you admit.
The two of you leave the bar in companionable silence, Flick is not the kind of person to fill the air with questions in public in spite of her intense personality. She takes you back to her laboratory, really the Advanced Thaumic and Biophysics Laboratory, but Flicker in Moth's Eye is the kind of person you want working in her own laboratory away from anything or anyone else that might decompose, decompress or generally dematerialize.
Black, featureless and almost violently angular, the suit looks a lot more comprehensive than what you had been planning for, meant to not only contain the person away from the hazardous environment but also dynamically ground them into it for active and passive camouflage. "This thing could slip though wards so easily," you whisper. "You'd be as unexceptional as the rocks you walk on."
The artificer-ventures, she would take a plain eingineseer very poorly makes a face at that. "So the people from the Hand told me. I told them I wasn't making piss-gargle spy gadgets for them to classify out of existence. I built the Carapace for a Labyrinth dive and that is what I'm going to do if I have to fund it myself. Say..." she tips her head to the side with a faint whir of servo-motors. "I don't suppose you'd like to sponsor a dive into the Mid Levels?"
[] Sure, you'd like to know more of what's down there
[] The suit is a masterpiece of sorcerous crafting. It would be a waste for someone who can make something this impressive to follow in the footsteps of so many lost explorers, try to tempt her with seeing Earth instead
[] Write in
OOC: So I had the doc open to prodigy crafting rules when I remembered IRIS' backstory as a SUTRA for distant exploration and contacting societies beyond the Five Cities. This is what a Binding and Warding Grandmaster, Mana Manipulation Master looks like.
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