Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

You have your priorities backwards. It doesn't help us at all if we identify it, but let it crash, with irreparable damage and data loss sustained.

Click to shrink...

I disagree.
My priorities are straightforward, and in order of priority:

• Molly's survival
• Survival of Molly's war party
• Everything else

This thing has already jumped to conclusions and tried to kill Molly once, taking us down to 6/15 health and -1 wound penalty.
If the choices are let it crash or let it stab Molly in the neck again, Im letting it crash and fixing whats left.


As most people here who have lived through the heydyay of Worm's popularity will remember?
Dragon in Worm, while a sapient AI, had explicit, hardcoded safeguards that compelled her to attack and destroy anyone who tried to modify her programming. She had no choice in the matter.

We have no idea if anything similar exists here. We had best find out first before anything else.



If I was a Solar crafter of the High First Age producing an artificial construct with weapons that could potentially kill me, I sure as fuck would safeguard my programming and put in access codes to prevent any rival, rebel or assassin trying to subvert its programming for their own purposes.

Whether another Solar or a Lunar or someone's summoned demons.

During the Usurpation, more than one Solar who wasnt at the dinner was murdered by hitherto-loyal DBs and Sidereals subverting the programming of their constructs.
And thats not counting what, if anything, may have been introduced into its programming since.


Our proper course of action should be

1. Find out if we even have authorized access, or if we'll be risking triggering lethal failsafes by trying to work on it, from a stab in the back to a self-destruct explosion taking out everything within 20 yards
2. Then find out if we can fix it, and if we have the materials to do so
3. Lastly, decide if we SHOULD fix it, or if the world is better off if its deactivated.

 

[Yog]

I disagree.
My priorities are straightforward, and in order of priority:

• Molly's survival
• Survival of Molly's war party
• Everything else

This thing has already jumped to conclusions and tried to kill Molly once, taking us down to 6/15 health and -1 wound penalty.
If the choices are let it crash or let it stab Molly in the neck again, Im letting it crash and fixing whats left.


As most people here who have lived through the heydyay of Worm's popularity will remember?
Dragon in Worm, while a sapient AI, had explicit, hardcoded safeguards that compelled her to attack and destroy anyone who tried to modify her programming. She had no choice in the matter.

We have no idea if anything similar exists here. We had best find out first before anything else.



If I was a Solar crafter of the High First Age producing an artificial construct with weapons that could potentially kill me, I sure as fuck would safeguard my programming and put in access codes to prevent any rival, rebel or assassin trying to subvert its programming for their own purposes.

Whether another Solar or a Lunar or someone's summoned demons.

During the Usurpation, more than one Solar who wasnt at the dinner was murdered by hitherto-loyal DBs and Sidereals subverting the programming of their constructs.
And thats not counting what, if anything, may have been introduced into its programming since.


Our proper course of action should be

1. Find out if we even have authorized access, or if we'll be risking triggering lethal failsafes by trying to work on it, from a stab in the back to a self-destruct explosion taking out everything within 20 yards
2. Then find out if we can fix it, and if we have the materials to do so
3. Lastly, decide if we SHOULD fix it, or if the world is better off if its deactivated.

Click to shrink...

It already stated that it was wrong and stopped attacking.

Your plan doesn't help Molly's survival. It merely decreases the chances of this thing's survival. Use the crown to ask for its history or identity or access codes or "what are the conditions / actions that will make it attack?" or whatever.

Asking for the status report while its crashing hard with imminent data loss is just not productive if you want to check how safe it is.

It cannot answer you if we have access because our existence is not something it can handle, and, shen it tried processing it, it ran into an error.

 

[Azais]

I'm very divided on which choice is better since, what I understand about the plans, it's just a difference in the order of events: heal-ask (yog) and ask-heal (uju).

[X] Yog

[X] uju32

 

[BoredMan]

I'm very divided on which choice is better since, what I understand about the plans, it's just a difference in the order of events: heal-ask (yog) and ask-heal (uju).

Click to shrink...

Uju wants to verify its motives due to recent events before trying to fix it and Yog wants to try and fix it before verifying motives. All we know is that it may regret attacking us not that it won't do so again if certain conditions are met, what with it being a servitor type being.

 

[Degorium]

Uju wants to verify its motives due to recent events before trying to fix it and Yog wants to try and fix it before verifying motives. All we know is that it may regret attacking us not that it won't do so again if certain conditions are met, what with it being a servitor type being.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure that logic follows because it could have just kept attacking us. It only entered the breaking State when it acknowledged it was wrong for attacking us.

 

[uju32]

We already know the general gist of the situation:
1) It's an artificial intelligence of some kind (based on the general pattern of speech, how it handles an exception)
2) It's likely solar / sun / Uncoqnquered Sun associated (based on the color of the text and iconography)
3) It is likely from the Age of Legends (based on what it's saying and the language it's using)
4) It has possibly been repainted / reused / modified in the later ages (based on how it was using current Age's iconography and languages)
5) It has inititally misidentified us for Anubis-tainted / Yomi-aligned / unholy
6) Once we have slain the vampire, it was able to notice its mistake. Trying to classify us now has caused it to run into an exception in its programming:

Click to shrink...

1)Construct, not AI.


2) Not a given. Ligier would share many of the same colors.


3) Possible. But unlikely.

Light red-gold like the sun on the desert lands stabs at your retinas such that it is hard to make up the shape of the thing that is glowing, other than being round and about nine feet off the ground, a sun disk atop a pillar, no a statue of limestone, marble and ceder wood, the same one from your vision. A face of stone, a judge unyielding stares down at the four of you as the a golden spear shifts in a fist of stone.

Click to shrink...

Its made of limestone, marble and cedar wood and carries a spear made of electrum, materials available to Pharaonic-era Egypt. Most definitely not the kind of things that Solars built their magic robots out of.

If I have to guess, this is post-Age of Legends manufacture and we're looking at an old Arcana.


4) See above.


5) No, it misidentified us as Apophis.
Anubis is part of the Egyptian pantheon, and god of funerary rites, protector of graves, and guide to the Underworld.
He protected Osiris from Set in at least one tale.

Apophis/Apep is the god of chaos, darkness and disorder. Sometimes known as the Lord of Chaos.
Appears as a snake, or sometimes a crocodile.

Anubis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apep - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

6)We dont know why it stopped.
It might have noticed it made a mistake. Alternatively, it might be biding its time for another attempt after the original one failed.
Or its programming might be wonky and it might be erratic.

We have no reason to take it at its (unsupported) word after it stabbed us in the back.

 

[BoredMan]

I'm not sure that logic follows because it could have just kept attacking us. It only entered the breaking State when it acknowledged it was wrong for attacking us.

Click to shrink...

Your not sure because we haven't taken any measures to verify what logic or limits the dangerous servitor operates with.

 

[Degorium]

1)Construct, not AI.


2) Not a given. Ligier would share many of the same colors.


3) Possible. But unlikely.

Its made of limestone, marble and cedar wood and carries a spear made of electrum, materials available to Pharaonic-era Egypt. Most definitely not the kind of things that Solars built their magic robots out of.

If I have to guess, this is post-Age of Legends manufacture and we're looking at an old Arcana.


4) See above.


5) No, it misidentified us as Apophis.
Anubis is part of the Egyptian pantheon, and god of funerary rites, protector of graves, and guide to the Underworld.
He protected Osiris from Set in at least one tale.

Apophis/Apep is the god of chaos, darkness and disorder. Sometimes known as the Lord of Chaos.
Appears as a snake, or sometimes a crocodile.

Anubis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apep - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

6)We dont know why it stopped.
It might have noticed it made a mistake. Alternatively, it might be biding its time for another attempt after the original one failed.
Or its programming might be wonky and it might be erratic.

We have no reason to take it at its (unsupported) word after it stabbed us in the back.

Click to shrink...

You know that means we have to repair it quickly right? It being revealed to be a later era Arcana particularly of golem make means that this is an ancient artifact that we have caused an error in that if the magic leaves it means it can never be repaired. We would have to rebuild and reignite it for it to be fixed and that would just be using the parts of an old Arcana to make a new one. That's not even getting into the fact that this might be a actual straight up religious Relic and if we are the cause of it breaking this scene of us inside of this religious building is going to get a lot bloodier because no one is going to have a lot of sympathy for I didn't mean to destroy a religious Relic.

 

[BoredMan]

no one is going to have a lot of sympathy for I didn't mean to destroy a religious Relic.

Click to shrink...

We didn't do jack shit to it. All we did was show up and tank a backstab. If it blows up and people have a problem with that then we'll deal with them. We haven't done anything wrong.

 

[Degorium]

Your not sure because we haven't taken any measures to verify what logic or limits the dangerous servitor operates with.

Click to shrink...

I mean that is true. Though what I was actually getting at is there was no reason for it to acknowledge it was wrong or stop attacking us flat out to begin with we didn't damage it we didn't do anything to it our words/ actions and its own thinking were enough for it to stop attacking us why would it start back up after we help fix it?

 

[BoredMan]

why would it start back up after we help fix it?

Click to shrink...

I do not know. Don't you get it? It's a servitor that means when certain conditions are met it responds in preprogramed ways. That is what I want to verify and that is why it got violent with us even though we were escourted through the front door by loyal followers and hadn't done anything hostile. It may not even be able to let us help fix it.

 

[Degorium]

We didn't do jack shit to it. All we did was show up and tank a backstab. If it blows up and people have a problem with that then we'll deal with them. We haven't done anything wrong.

Click to shrink...

Well I don't want to have to deal with it. These people did nothing wrong to us, the Statue made a mistake because we're a font of endless Darkness entering its place of guardianship like it owned the place no actual attempt to communicate effectively with it because we refuse to use our Essence to ask a question of why it was mad at us.

 

[BoredMan]

no actual attempt to communicate effectively with

Click to shrink...

You need to reread. We were talking to it the Blampire interrupted us then things went hairy.

 

[Degorium]

I do not know. Don't you get it? It's a servitor that means when certain conditions are met it responds in preprogramed ways. That is what I want to verify and that it why it got voilent with us even though we were escourted through the front door by loyal followers and hadn't done anything hostile. It may not even be able to let us help fix it.

Click to shrink...

Oh it got violent with us because Nathanael essentially turned it on us calling us a distraction. This on top of it earlier error means it attacked us and then immediately stopped once it realized we weren't on the black vampire side and we weren't going to attack anything else.

 

[Degorium]

You need to reread. We were talking to it the Blampire interrupted us then things went hairy.

Click to shrink...

No I read it we went at it with Hollow over politeness using the etiquette Excellency with no idea of why it was particularly mad at us and then Cobbler pops out of the living cow.

 

[uju32]

I'm not sure that logic follows because it could have just kept attacking us. It only entered the breaking State when it acknowledged it was wrong for attacking us.

Click to shrink...

It stabbed us twice with a conceptual Agg spear, doing enough damage to kill a mortal, and Molly isnt even bleeding.
Not to mention that Molly's war party is right there.
Oh, and it just saw Molly soulmurder a Black Court vampire.

It would be entirely logical to attempt to de-escalate at that point, rather than keep going.

Im not saying its not sincere.
Im saying that we dont know, and given Molly's broken rib(s), we have every reason to verify first, rather than take its unsupported word for it.

You know that means we have to repair it quickly right? It being revealed to be a later era Arcana particularly of golem make means that this is an ancient artifact that we have caused an error in that if the magic leaves it means it can never be repaired. We would have to rebuild and reignite it for it to be fixed and that would just be using the parts of an old Arcana to make a new one. That's not even getting into the fact that this might be a actual straight up religious Relic and if we are the cause of it breaking this scene of us inside of this religious building is going to get a lot bloodier because no one is going to have a lot of sympathy for I didn't mean to destroy a religious Relic.

Click to shrink...

No it does not.
Our priorities are our lives, the lives of our party, and the lives of the people of Las Vegas, in that order.
We are under no obligation to risk our life to repair a magic construct, no matter how wondrous.

I would be regretful if it got damaged beyond repair, but Molly is at 40% HP because we trusted this thing was logical and made decisions the same way we do.
Not making that mistake again.

Treat Stabby McStabface as the potentially lethal actor that it is.

That's not even getting into the fact that this might be a actual straight up religious Relic and if we are the cause of it breaking this scene of us inside of this religious building is going to get a lot bloodier because no one is going to have a lot of sympathy for I didn't mean to destroy a religious Relic.

Click to shrink...

My dude, the construct broke guest right and stabbed her in the back.
Molly could take this shit personally, like all the way personally, against everyone involved.
And most supernatural actors would say she was in her rights.

Seriously, try to stab Maeve after she enters your house as a putative guest and see what happens.

 

[BoredMan]

No I read it we went at it with Hollow over politeness using the etiquette Excellency with no idea of why it was particularly mad at us and then Cobbler pops out of the living cow.

Click to shrink...

You said we made no attempt to effectively communicate but we did. We were talking to it trying to convince it that we weren't a bad guy even if we gave off bad vibes, and it was responding in kind. If Cobbler wasn't here odds are we could've talked it down. We knew why it was mad it fucking told us.

 

[Degorium]

It stabbed us twice with a conceptual Agg spear, doing enough damage to kill a mortal, and Molly isnt even bleeding.
Not to mention that Molly's war party is right there.
Oh, and it just saw Molly soulmurder a Black Court vampire.

It would be entirely logical to attempt to de-escalate at that point, rather than keep going.

Im not saying its not sincere.
Im saying that we dont know, and given Molly's broken rib(s), we have every reason to verify first, rather than take its unsupported word for it.

No it does not.
Our priorities are our lives, the lives of our party, and the lives of the people of Las Vegas, in that order.
We are under no obligation to risk our life to repair a magic construct, no matter how wondrous.

I would be regretful if it got damaged beyond repair, but Molly is at 40% HP because we trusted this thing was logical and made decisions the same way we do.
Not making that mistake again.

Treat Stabby McStabface as the potentially lethal actor that it is.


My dude, the construct broke guest right and stabbed her in the back.
Molly could take this shit personally, like all the way personally, against everyone involved.
And most supernatural actors would say she was in her rights.

Seriously, try to stab Maeve after she enters your house as a putative guest and see what happens.

Click to shrink...

You do realize as a construct/direct servant of the gods that this church / place of worship is most likely its house it has final say on who is allowed in and who isn't right. The clergy can invite us in but whether or not the guardian lets us in which it did not do by the way Nathaniel pops out of the cow before that happens then he calls us out as a distraction and at that point it strikes us when we hit Nathaniel and then immediately stands down after it strikes. At no point did it break guest rights that is a serious accusation.

 

[Degorium]

You said we made no attempt to effectively communicate but we did. We were talking to it trying to convince it that we weren't a bad guy even if we gave off bad vibes, and it was responding in kind. If Cobbler wasn't here odds are we could've talked it down. We knew why it was mad it fucking told us.

Click to shrink...

You're right my choice of words was over enthusiastic . I happen to believe that not asking a question of our Crown both wasted time and put us in a bad position to be told I think you're an enemy of my pantheons archenemy and then having to negotiate down from there is a bad position to start an introduction. Being able to lead with I'm not actually any Divine or demonic incursion I'm just a human that feels like that is considerably more effective.

There's also I don't understand where this logic is coming from because it stops attacking us before it says anything it stands down and then suffers some kind of error. So the idea that it's immediately going to start up after we fix it and attack us again is paranoid I don't have another word for it because that is what it is it didn't have to stop attacking us to begin with we are still not actual guests in its house.

 

[uju32]

It already stated that it was wrong and stopped attacking.

Your plan doesn't help Molly's survival. It merely decreases the chances of this thing's survival. Use the crown to ask for its history or identity or access codes or "what are the conditions / actions that will make it attack?" or whatever.

Asking for the status report while its crashing hard with imminent data loss is just not productive if you want to check how safe it is.

It cannot answer you if we have access because our existence is not something it can handle, and, shen it tried processing it, it ran into an error.

Click to shrink...

It stated it was wrong.

Now, is it telling the truth, or is it lying? Or is it ill and dysfunctional? A combination of two or more?
We dont know, and we have no reason to extend the benefit of the doubt. Especially if its a construct, since constructs can have hardcoded behaviors that are entirely outside their own volition.

Thats why I have ATB running before throwing 15ish dice of Etiquette at it.

===
No, you ask for its status first.
Based on whether it answers the question, and how it answers the question, you can now tailor your Crown question to maximum effect.

We do not have infinite applicable Crown focuses to spam here.

===
It is explicitly talking to us right now.
At least part of it is actively answering us now, so whatever internal conflict its having at the moment, they are neither paralytic nor immediately terminal. Rushing risks tripping into some other unforeseen issues, like said potential safeguards.

I would be regretful if it died or suffered terminal malfunction before we could sort it out, but I think we have taken sufficient precipitate action for one evening.

 

[Yog]

No, you ask for its status first.
Based on whether it answers the question, and how it answers the question, you can now tailor your Crown question to maximum effect.

We do not have infinite applicable Crown focuses to spam here.

===
It is explicitly talking to us right now.
At least part of it is actively answering us now, so whatever internal conflict its having at the moment, they are neither paralytic nor immediately terminal. Rushing risks tripping into some other unforeseen issues, like said potential safeguards.

I would be regretful if it died or suffered terminal malfunction before we could sort it out, but I think we have taken sufficient precipitate action for one evening.

Click to shrink...

It is explicitly and clearly blabbing out error messages right now, not talking. It's blue screening, essentially, with error messages popping up all over.

We already know its status in general - "encountered critical error, about to lose data / break down". It's not a time to delay.

 

[BoredMan]

So the idea that it's immediately going to start up after we fix it and attack us again is paranoid I don't have another word for it because that is what it is it didn't have to stop attacking us to begin with we are still not actual guests in its house.

Click to shrink...

We are guest. We were escourted in through the front door by followers who live here. That's how it works in setting.

I never said it would attack us if we fixed it your putting words in my mouth, I have no idea what it'll do. What I'm saying is that as a servitor with an inhuman mindset who doesn't like our bad juju it may have preprogramed conditions that if met would cause it to attack us reguardless of any other factors. It was starting to get hostile with us when all we did was show up invited ffs. It may also not be able to let us fix it at all because we lack permissions and our loyalties are unknown.

There are viable reasons for it to have stopped it's assualt it doesn't have to be genuine or taken at face value after it backstabbed us. There are other possibilities and since it's a servitor we have no way of knowing without attempting verification of some manner one possibility being intimidation-

It stabbed us twice with a conceptual Agg spear, doing enough damage to kill a mortal, and Molly isnt even bleeding.
Not to mention that Molly's war party is right there.
Oh, and it just saw Molly soulmurder a Black Court vampire.

It would be entirely logical to attempt to de-escalate at that point, rather than keep going.

Click to shrink...

 

[uju32]

You do realize as a construct/direct servant of the gods that this church / place of worship is most likely its house it has final say on who is allowed in and who isn't right. The clergy can invite us in but whether or not the guardian lets us in which it did not do by the way Nathaniel pops out of the cow before that happens then he calls us out as a distraction and at that point it strikes us when we hit Nathaniel and then immediately stands down after it strikes. At no point did it break guest rights that is a serious accusation.

Click to shrink...

Thats not how it works.
We were invited here by the local high priest, someone with the authority to request our presence.
We came here with the expectations of the laws of hospitality. We observed all niceties.

Its within its rights to withdraw hospitality and ask us to leave. It DIDNT do that.
Its not in its rights to stab us in the back when we're defending its temple against an attacker.
It fucked up.

Its not in our interests to press the issue. If we wanted to, it would be within our rights.

It is explicitly and clearly blabbing out error messages right now, not talking. It's blue screening, essentially, with error messages popping up all over.

Click to shrink...

No, thats not true.
Citation:

For her part Lydia does not seem to be paying much attention, her eyes axed on the pile of ash now almost floating in the tide of bovine blood. "That's not dead, it should be dead though, you tried to... pull it in right?" You appreciate that she did not say something like 'eat its soul', but her choice of words is still alarmingly vague to the nearly stunned celebrants who had moments ago been leaning in a distressed, but still healthy cow. "That felt very unwelcome...?" she glances at the snake-headed woman.

"Most unwelcome, though it reclaimed that which was of its own making," comes the reply then again, with emphasis: [Event Horizon Asymptotic to Astro-Temporal Alignment. Primary Function Nearing Fracture/Terminal Loss]

Taking a deep breath, and a gulp of thinning essence you try to make some sense of what this thing is saying. There seems to be two things happening that it is reacting, one a loss of function that is getting more and more likely and the there is some kind of alignment which is 'desirable' or at least which is part of its ordered function which is getting closer, but cannot get there, hence asymptotic.

Click to shrink...

Its subvocalizing error messages, but it is pretty clearly also holding a clear, ongoing conversation with Molly/Lydia.
And in its error messages, its talking about issues with Primary Function, implying other functions are working fine.

 

[Yog]

1)Construct, not AI.


2) Not a given. Ligier would share many of the same colors.


3) Possible. But unlikely.

Its made of limestone, marble and cedar wood and carries a spear made of electrum, materials available to Pharaonic-era Egypt. Most definitely not the kind of things that Solars built their magic robots out of.

If I have to guess, this is post-Age of Legends manufacture and we're looking at an old Arcana.


4) See above.


5) No, it misidentified us as Apophis.
Anubis is part of the Egyptian pantheon, and god of funerary rites, protector of graves, and guide to the Underworld.
He protected Osiris from Set in at least one tale.

Apophis/Apep is the god of chaos, darkness and disorder. Sometimes known as the Lord of Chaos.
Appears as a snake, or sometimes a crocodile.

Anubis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apep - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

6)We dont know why it stopped.
It might have noticed it made a mistake. Alternatively, it might be biding its time for another attempt after the original one failed.
Or its programming might be wonky and it might be erratic.

We have no reason to take it at its (unsupported) word after it stabbed us in the back.

Click to shrink...

1) Po-tayt-o po-tah-to. It's an embodied artificial intelligence. Because it has a body, it is clearly artificial, and it is clearly intelligent enough to communicate with humans for a long time.

2) Possible, but very unlikely based on everything else

3) Most likely it's a recreation / patch job. Someone in ancient Egypt found some Age of Legends artifact or spirit or whatever, and repaired / repurposed it using what they had available. So electrium instead of orichalcium, marble instead of magical jade, etc. Note that we have seemed to knock out the egyptian overlay - the color of the text, the language used, and the words spoken changed once it ran into an error.

4) Yeah, ok, I misremembered.

5) Then use the crown. If you are assuming that it is lying and pretending then talking to it doesn't help.

Also, this is paranoid.

And in its error messages, its talking about issues with Primary Function, implying other functions are working fine.

Click to shrink...

No, there is no such implication. "I am suffering a stroke" does not imply that "I do not have a flu".

 

[Degorium]

Thats not how it works.
We were invited here by the local high priest, someone with the authority to request our presence.
We came here with the expectations of the laws of hospitality. We observed all niceties.

Its within its rights to withdraw hospitality and ask us to leave. It DIDNT do that.
Its not in its rights to stab us in the back when we're defending its temple against an attacker.
It fucked up.

Its not in our interests to press the issue. If we wanted to, it would be within our rights.


No, thats not true.
Citation:

Its subvocalizing error messages, but it is pretty clearly also holding a clear, ongoing conversation with Molly/Lydia.
And in its error messages, its talking about issues with Primary Function, implying other functions are working fine.

Click to shrink...

You know a terminal loss of primary function in any sense of a living construct means it's dying right. The primary function of my brain is to actually automate a lot of my body's processes and think a terminal failure of any part of that will lead to my expiration. The primary function of in Arcana is to do whatever it's Master designed but in that if it cannot do that then it's dying because it was designed with a purpose and if it cannot fulfill that purpose then it's rest of its design is unnecessary or directly in support of that primary function like say it's spear or it being able to move its limbs or speak. At best it's saying I'm having a stroke at worst it is saying I am dying at this second.

Edit: guest rights claiming the clergy has the ultimate premises in deciding what is a guest is kind of a failure when you consider the fact that this is a house of God or so much to say the house of Ra. Being tricked into attacking someone who you still have not actually invited into your home because the clergy are not the actual owners of this place not in a mystical sense. The owner had legitimate ideas that we were in cahoots with someone who was trying to steal from them in the owners eyes we were trying to break guess rights the second that is not the case it stops attacking us you can't have it both ways because it attacks us in the same round that we attack the black vampire and has a conversation where it tells us to turn back or tries to get us to turn back before that so the idea that it's hostility came out of nowhere or that it shanked Us in the back out of nowhere is a lie.