Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Degorium]

The vampire looks at her a long moment and then it starts to laugh, not a little in mockery or feigned humanity, but belly laughs that make it double over, air wheezing though dried lungs. "You... you think He's 'ere?" There's one 'h' that isn't dropped, in fact there's almost a kind of reverence about it. "You're having a bubble love. If He were here you'd know from the screams... the screams and the silence. Nah I think you're not about to piss off Charon even harder than you already did, not if you want to get anything done in this city, 'specially nowadays. You'll be rolling snake eyes till the sun's in the sky and then you will be wondering if maybe you shouldn't have pissed off a thing that was old when the Trojan War was young."

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If that was the case Molly would've been able to tell. Again she determined that he didn't tell any outright lies and was being surprisingly straightforward. Stop ignoring this.

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There's a supreme amount of relying on the reputation of The Boatman there and no actual mention of there being a neutral zone here. This might be his River this might even be his Casino. But this sidewalk out here in front if he's got a problem he's going to have to walk out into it cuz we're not going into that casino and we're not going back in that River.
I can acknowledge he's being straightforward but I can also acknowledge he's not mentioning anything that is unknown about this area like say a neutral zone or any actual retaliation he's relying on us not knowing to escape our grasp.

 

[uju32]

Okay that's fear-mongering. We have cyber devils that is it there is no camera or computer system that could have seen us or can see us that we cannot immediately sabotage.

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No it is not fearmongering, its fuckmothering common sense.
We explicitly avoided getting into a fight with Broken Seeker in the middle of downtown Chicago after his coven kidnapped Izzy and Alex for much the same godforsaken reason: Civilians and electronic surveillance.

Cyberdevils are literally magic.
Cyberdevils also require time and effort to attempt to hack into networked resources, and they can fail; when they tried to hack Charity's father's company, they failed.

Did I mention that the Las Vegas Strip is one of the most heavily surveilled places in the world?
Because the Las Vegas Strip is one of the most heavily surveilled places in the world.
With physical AND electronic security.

Thats how they keep people from robbing the casinos.

Secondly he is starting to walk away from us into three or four people that were walking into that building that is what it says. So he hasn't even cleared distance with us yet never mind actually gotten towards civilians. Who are they going to tell if we splatter him across the concrete? That they saw a flying girl a wizard and a witch that fired a bolts of gray light that turned to random guy into a smudge and no cameras caught that yeah sure that that's definitely going to fly.

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We are on the canal. In a gondola. With the civilian ferryman.
He is on the bank.

Also we have connections to the Library of Congress you know the supernatural law of the US. That can also cover any tracks that we might leave on this case if we were to contact them about the specifics.

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We have shit.
The Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress has fuckall influence in Las Vegas. And we have no actual influence with the Library; our contacts to date have been that we talked to them once, and passed them some prisoners.

You think they will cover up a murder for you because you were fucking reckless in front of cameras?
AFTER you aggro'd a god for no apparent reason?

 

[Degorium]

No it is not fearmongering, its fuckmothering common sense.
We explicitly avoided getting into a fight with Broken Seeker in the middle of downtown Chicago after his coven kidnapped Izzy and Alex for much the same godforsaken reason: Civilians and electronic surveillance.

Cyberdevils are literally magic.
Cyberdevils also require time and effort to attempt to hack into networked resources, and they can fail; when they tried to hack Charity's father's company, they failed.

Did I mention that the Las Vegas Strip is one of the most heavily surveilled places in the world?
Because the Las Vegas Strip is one of the most heavily surveilled places in the world.
With physical AND electronic security.


We are on the canal. In a gondola. With the civilian ferryman.
He is on the bank.


We have shit.
The Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress has fuckall influence in Las Vegas. And we have no actual influence with the Library; our contacts to date have been that we talked to them once, and passed them some prisoners.

You think they will cover up a murder for you because you were fucking reckless in front of cameras?
AFTER you aggro'd a god for no apparent reason?

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So who's going to investigate his death and how. The Masquerade is voluntary on humanity's part the second magic gets involved eyes turn away we know that to be true. On top of the fact the supernatural scene here will definitely cover it up. Now surveillance is a problem okay sure. The flying in Chicago at top speed didn't seem to be a problem. The rampaging dino skeleton in the streets of Chicago didn't seem to be a problem. You can claim all you want that people will care or see anything but it's obvious in Dresden files if magic is involved they don't care or they refuse to see whichever one you want but you can't have it both ways.

 

[BoredMan]

There's a supreme amount of relying on the reputation of The Boatman there and no actual mention of there being a neutral zone here

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It was said that Charon doesn't like blood being spilled here and he has many friends who he could call on to enforce that. Sounds like neutral grounds to me. People shouldn't have to spell it out.

"Any reason why we wouldn't stake you were you stand, corpse?" Lydia shoots back.

"Well now m'lady Charon takes the spilling of blood on 'is ground very seriously and 'e has many, many friends to call on, more now than he used to if you know what I mean."

"And why would anyone who takes that name, much less one who is in the least worthy of it care about your blood, shambling thing?"

"Ah.." A tongue, just as pale as his lips makes its appearance, held between his teeth. "I know things. More than these here spooks you've been questioning. So how 'bout it, fancy a trade?"

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[fictionfan]

I mean the bad guys could have us arrested for mundane murder assuming this black Court has a civilian identity.

 

[uju32]

PS
And what are we going to do about the body?
The one we would have just stabbed on electronic surveillance cameras in front of civilian witnesses, less than fifty yards from casino security? The Blampire is less than two hundred years old; its not going to disintegrate into dust.

And thats assuming that we dont have civilian collateral either, given that Blampires have mind control powers.
And are explicitly the strongest, fastest variety of vampires that exist in the Dresdenverse.
And this is a world where Dresden has clocked Lara Raith at 50 miles per hour.

 

[Degorium]

It was said that Charon doesn't like blood being spilled here and he has many friends who he could call on to enforce that. Sounds like neutral grounds to me.

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That's not neutral ground that's the boatman's ground. And I mentioned that. Neutral ground implies other factions in Vegas would get mad. If this is his territory then that is what it is but we know he's not even the only player in this area of Vegas never mind the biggest player in Vegas at all. Also that means we've already pissed them off so what are we worried about we've literally broken into his house and stolen prisoners that he is probably helping keep there. Why do we care about pissing him off even further.

 

[uju32]

I mean the bad guys could have us arrested for mundane murder assuming this black Court has a civilian identity.

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Even if he doesnt, we would literally be killing someone on camera and leaving a body.
The police dont need to know the identity of the deceased to arrest a perpetrator.

 

[Degorium]

PS
And what are we going to do about the body?
The one we would have just stabbed on electronic surveillance cameras in front of civilian witnesses, less than fifty yards from casino security? The Blampire is less than two hundred years old; its not going to disintegrate into dust.

And thats assuming that we dont have civilian collateral either, given that Blampires have mind control powers.
And are explicitly the strongest, fastest variety of vampires that exist in the Dresdenverse.
And this is a world where Dresden has clocked Lara Raith at 50 miles per hour.

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To be honest I thought we would kill him and then take his corpse with us so we can Divine everything we need to know from possessions his interactions to his motives and connections and then from his corpse his knowledge of the exalted or the neverborn.

 

[BoredMan]

Also that means we've already pissed them off so what are we worried about we've literally broken into his house and stolen prisoners that he is probably helping keep there. Why do we care about pissing him off even further.

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Your being pedantic. The Boatman is enforcing neutral grounds by saying you can't spill blood here, which we haven't done yet.

 

[Degorium]

Your being pedantic. The Boatman is enforcing neutral grounds by saying you can't spill blood here, which we haven't done yet.

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That isn't what neutral ground means. Say he's keeping peace in his territory say he refuses to have violence in his grounds say anything else but that is not what neutral ground means.

 

[Artemis1992]

Capital HE?
Cobbler certainly believes that Charon is a god, apparently. And a male god at that.
Nemty was the Egyptian god of ferrymen. Ra travels through the underworld every night on a boat.

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It's a bit confusing, but I'm 90% sure that He is not directed at Charon, but at Nate's sire.

"Remarkable, nothing of what you said makes me want to kill you any less," Lash interjects lightly. "Get to the point, if you have one that's not stalling for whatever begot you to crawl out of its hole and and into the light of judgement."

The vampire looks at her a long moment and then it starts to laugh, not a little in mockery or feigned humanity, but belly laughs that make it double over, air wheezing though dried lungs. "You... you think He's 'ere?" There's one 'h' that isn't dropped, in fact there's almost a kind of reverence about it. "You're having a bubble love. If He were here you'd know from the screams... the screams and the silence.

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Lash talks about "whatever begot you" and than his demeanor changes in reaction to that.

Charon only comes back to the conversation a sentence later.

 

[fictionfan]

I am personally favor capture because corpse demon seems like they should be easy to capture. Just use a bunch of lethal force but don't stake them and we have our kingdom for a convent place to drop him off for deep interrogate.

Don't know why others want to kill.

 

[BoredMan]

That isn't what neutral ground means. Say he's keeping peace in his territory say he refuses to have violence in his grounds say anything else but that is not what neutral ground means.

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I maintian that your being pedantic. NG are places you can go to and trust that voilence won't be met upon you unless you start it of your own accord. This qualifies for all intents and purposes its NG.

 

[uju32]

That's not neutral ground that's the boatman's ground. And I mentioned that. Neutral ground implies other factions in Vegas would get mad. If this is his territory then that is what it is but we know he's not even the only player in this area of Vegas never mind the biggest player in Vegas at all. Also that means we've already pissed them off so what are we worried about we've literally broken into his house and stolen prisoners that he is probably helping keep there. Why do we care about pissing him off even further.

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Yeah, no.
It was explicitly stated, back when we first interrogated Mutt, that the Canals are neutral grounds and that the Gondolier guarantees them:

The first person mentioned is 'Big Corey' the highest placed of the White Court's vampires, and technically Mutt's own boss. He's recently put the word out for any kind of talent ever since one of his top talent was found staked right outside the perimeter of the Venetian Canals, one of the most expensive mega-resorts in Vegas and haunt of the mysterious Gondolier, a guarantor of bargains large ad small and one of the most trustworthy neutral parties in Vegas... if you had something precious you were willing to give him. That the dead incubus was killed within sight of safety might have been its own sign for Corey, that he was staked like Dracula in spite of not needing to was definitely one so now he's spooked. The proprietor at the Hanging Gardens, Arlene Ghorbani is also looking for strays before the city can chew them up spit them back up, though she's suffered a loss recently, her number two, the incubus Kenneth Mayeda had gone missing, some say he's skipped down after the fire at Club Xanadu that rumour has it he was involved with, though Silk No Last Name Apparently, the mage in charge, had not come forward to point any fingers.

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The Canals are safe. If Ambrosio had made it there, he would have lived.

This is not new.
This is not a recent discovery
This was part of the basic background briefing we got on the current events in Las Vegas.

You can even go back and get yourself a copy of the DFRPG pdfs where all these characters were lifted from.
The Gondolier/Ferryman guarantees this place.

 

[BronzeTongue]

He might be a former member. Either way, we do seem to have an "enemy of my enemy" situation with the Pallbearers.

Also he's a Crown Foci to find out what the hell Neverborn are. I sorta feel like we should be using him for something in that vein.

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So's his corpse. We already promised to kill him so it has to get done, and the more chances we give him to screw around the more chances he has to make us regret it.

I also think that if we're going to use the necessary evils argument it's important to be very good about telling the difference between that and a simply convenient one.

Capital HE?
Cobbler certainly believes that Charon is a god, apparently. And a male god at that.
Nemty was the Egyptian god of ferrymen. Ra travels through the underworld every night on a boat.

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The he there was the blampire that made Cobbler, not Charon.
need.

1) You dont have to sign anything to be judged to be breaking custom and law.
If we'd blundered into Mac's place and started shit without knowing about its neutrality, that wouldnt be a defense.

2) The Venetian Canals are acknowledged as a neutral spot in Las Vegas.
The spirit domain we travelled to is neither in Las Vegas, nor acknowledged as a neutral location.
Charon isnt obliged to do anything about it.

3) Like I've said previously, there's no evidence that the spirit domain is Charon's.
Charon presumably helped get Mayeda there.
But he doesnt appear to have assumed any responsibility for his health or fate while he was there.


Note that Cobbler wasnt making any threats or implications about Charon coming after us for rescuing Mayeda.
Because doing so broke no rules.
Only if we attacked him(Cobbler) in the Canals would we have committed an actionable infraction.

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1) I'm aware, I even made that point in the post you quoted. My point was that there's backlash and there's Backlash. It's like nation state bombing embassies.

You're going to piss off whoever owned it, and get side eyes from everyone else at minimum, but there's a difference between country A going to war with country B then burning down country C's complex in B's capitol and storming the one they're personally hosting without warning.

2) Unless I completely lost the plot here Charon is the reason it's neutral, he enforces the policy and also owns that nevernever patch, which he rents to people so they can hide under his protection. He's got income and rep riding on stopping precisely what we just did. This entire area is basically one facility he operates, so you're drawing a distinction without a difference.

3)

Nah I think you're not about to piss off Charon even harder than you already did, not if you want to get anything done in this city, 'specially nowadays. You'll be rolling snake eyes till the sun's in the sky and then you will be wondering if maybe you shouldn't have pissed off a thing that was old when the Trojan War was young."

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This is him telling us we pissed off Charon already, and is banking on us not being willing to risk worse retaliation. That's basically telling us to our faces that we've made an enemy.

The place where he had been summoned, the place where the other incubus had been slain, that at least makes sense. Though why would a supossed neutral place shelter something as dangerous and as corrosive to the balance of the city as a vampire of the Black Court? As you pick up the bullet and weight it in hand you give the others a small nod, 'I've got something'.

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Here's the crown describing it to us as a single location.

I suspect based on that last line we're going to be testing out our shaping defense against divine curses soon.

He might be a former member. Either way, we do seem to have an "enemy of my enemy" situation with the Pallbearers.

Also he's a Crown Foci to find out what the hell Neverborn are. I sorta feel like we should be using him for something in that vein.

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Aren't any former members, just active and reservist. The timeline is also suspicious as well.

And you want to commit a homicide here? Thats like murdering someone in Time Square.

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ATP.

He doesn't get to roll against us until the moment we directly go after him, so we get a free opening hit unless he has perfect mental defenses up already. If Gorfel could shoot us in the chest and still force us to roll to remember to use our perfect with a lesser veil while sprinting away in plain view I'm pretty confident in the quality of ours.

That and the alibi of going "what did I do, teleport there from Chicago?" would work wonders on mortal authorities.

 

[Degorium]

@uju32 that quote literally says his neutrality comes at the cost of his two gold pieces. Which inherently already makes it not neutral. He's a gang Lord essentially he keeps the peace in this area if you wish to not have peace you deal with him. But the catch with that is we've already decided not to have peace we've broken into a rented spot essentially, because we know his neutrality can be sold so I failed to see how killing the renter actually increases the emnity with The Boatman any further.

I maintian that your being pedantic. NG are places you can go to and trust that voilence won't be met upon you unless you start it of your own accord. This qualifies for all intents and purposes its NG.

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Neutral ground requires neutrality. Being willing to rent prison space to factions in his areas immediately destroys any idea of neutrality. Because he inherently has a vested interest in continuing conflicts. That involve him as a mediator/prisoner holder. This is before any ideas of how he enforces his peace.

 

[uju32]

It's a bit confusing, but I'm 90% sure that He is not directed at Charon, but at Nate's sire.
Lash talks about "whatever begot you" and than his demeanor changes in reaction to that.
Charon only comes back to the conversation a sentence later.

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Hmm.
You may be right. That sounds like a Black Court vampire Elder.

I sincerely hope his Sire is not Drakul, because Drakul is not a level-appropriate encounter for a full Circle of E5s, let alone Molly and her war-party.

I am personally favor capture because corpse demon seems like they should be easy to capture. Just use a bunch of lethal force but don't stake them and we have our kingdom for a convent place to drop him off for deep interrogate.

Don't know why others want to kill.

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The problem there is that you are putting a potential arcane link that other people can use in a location you want to keep secure. And if Artemis is right, and this guy is directly a spawn/pawn of Drakul, believe me that is not something you want to do.

Not to mention there's evidence this guy does magic; base Black Court vampires cant bind ghosts as spies the way this guy did. Which makes him exponentially more dangerous.
I dont think we can afford him as a captive.

Kill him? Sure, if we can do it without endangering ourself, our freedom, our reputation, or any civilians.
Which means not doing it in the middle of a mega-resort wired with cameras.
Capture introduces unnecessary risk.

 

[Degorium]

OOC: Lydia called all the ghosts in this place, one of them was in the pay of the vampire to report such things... which is why he was topside and not with Mayeda when you grabbed him. Upside and downside

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Hmm.
You may be right. That sounds like a Black Court vampire Elder.

I sincerely hope his Sire is not Drakul, because Drakul is not a level-appropriate encounter for a full Circle of E5s, let alone Molly and her war-party.


The problem there is that you are putting a potential arcane link that other people can use in a location you want to keep secure. And if Artemis is right, and this guy is directly a spawn/pawn of Drakul, believe me that is not something you want to do.

Not to mention there's evidence this guy does magic; base Black Court vampires cant bind ghosts as spies the way this guy did. Which makes him exponentially more dangerous.
I dont think we can afford him as a captive.

Kill him? Sure, if we can do it without endangering ourself, our freedom, our reputation, or any civilians.
Which means not doing it in the middle of a mega-resort wired with cameras.
Capture introduces unnecessary risk.

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There was no magic with the ghost. If my maneuver works or we just score a higher initiative which we definitely might if we attack him while he's trying to walk away from us we could splatter him in one turn no amount of fortitude or any possible discipline would allow him to have more than seven Health levels he might have merits or mutations that might do that but in the end if Lydia shoots off one of her I don't want to say Crypt bolt but I can't remember what her particular long-range death Essence Bolt charms called, and Harry shoots off a fire Spike while we cut him up extra hard then there is a not insignificant chance he dies immediately before he can even take another step towards the building. Because between the three of us that's anywhere from 10 to 35 dice of damage all of it lethal.

 

[Artemis1992]

I sincerely hope his Sire is not Drakul, because Drakul is not a level-appropriate encounter for a full Circle of E5s, let alone Molly and her war-party.

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Unlikely, I'd say.

The man was a wannabe-archeologist, most likely he dug out something that should have been left asleep.

Also Drakul only ever made a handful of Blampires for his own reasons as far as I know, it's much more likely that Nate was sired by either one of Dracula's get after he made the Blampires from Drakul's personal helpers into an entire court, or by one of the other original horrors maybe, if his sire is on the really old side of things.

Also from a narrative perspective it makes more sense if DP gives himself some space to escalate, rather than have the biggest monster already be the one directly behind this one. In good old VTM tradition there should be a few steps between this guy and the final boss of vampires.

Not to mention there's evidence this guy does magic; base Black Court vampires cant bind ghosts as spies the way this guy did. Which makes him exponentially more dangerous.

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He is not young and he was a risk-taker even in life.
Learning a bit of magic rather than rely fully on your physical strength is just sensible, if you have the time.
And Necromancy should come easy to something touched by the Neverborn, however distantly.

 

[fictionfan]

The problem there is that you are putting a potential arcane link that other people can use in a location you want to keep secure.

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Would have to be quite the link.

 

[BoredMan]

Neutral ground requires neutrality. Being willing to rent prison space to factions in his areas immediately destroys any idea of neutrality. Because he inherently has a vested interest in continuing conflicts. That involve him as a mediator/prisoner holder. This is before any ideas of how he enforces his peace.

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The locals see him as "one of the most trustworthy neutral parties in Vegas". Where are you getting that he's willing to rent out prison space to factions? Whatever deal he has going on with the Blampire seems to be due to extenuating circumstances. It could have something to do with the sin eater.

Really I think we fucked up by not asking the Crown what Arlene was keeping from us. In any case we need more data on what the hell is going on rather than making rash moves like you seem to want to for limited gain.

 

[Degorium]

The locals see him as "one of the most trustworthy neutral parties in Vegas". Where are you getting that he's willing to rent out prison space to factions? Whatever deal he has going on with the Blampire seems to be due to extenuating circumstances. It could have something to do with the sin eater.

Really I think we fucked up by not asking the Crown what Arlene was keeping from us. In any case we need more data on what the hell is going on rather than making rash moves like you seem to want to for limited gain.

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He's the most trustworthy man in Vegas as long as you have his two gold coins. Which is fitting for his Legend but does make him a god based mob boss.

 

[Nyarky]

That Ishtar worshiper should've told us about any neutral ground and how it works here, honestly kind of suspicious that they didn't warn us. She knows we are from out of town even if it maybe common knowledge to the locals that doesn't mean we would know.

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Or… she didn't because Nathaniel's bluffing, and this isn't *neutral ground*

It was said that Charon doesn't like blood being spilled here and he has many friends who he could call on to enforce that. Sounds like neutral grounds to me. People shouldn't have to spell it out.

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First ruie of dealing with supernaturals in any setting with strong fae influence:

If they're not spelling it out, it's not true.

 

[uju32]

2) Unless I completely lost the plot here Charon is the reason it's neutral, he enforces the policy and also owns that nevernever patch, which he rents to people so they can hide under his protection. He's got income and rep riding on stopping precisely what we just did. This entire area is basically one facility he operates, so you're drawing a distinction without a difference.

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The first part is accurate to my understand. The bolded bit isnt true. Nor is the third.

He makes no money here, nor does he charge for safety. He deals in secrets, and things of value to the other person; his very first talk was with the Dragon, and then what he asked for was an old necklace that the Dragon kept as a memento of his family. In return, he allegedly told the Dragon all his enemy's plans.

Dude's only been here around six years, since the Venetian Resort complex opened; the story is that he was there when the canals opened.

This is him telling us we pissed off Charon already, and is banking on us not being willing to risk worse retaliation. That's basically telling us to our faces that we've made an enemy.

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I dont think Molly or her crew have done anything actionable by his rules as explained in this quest, or in the original material.
Whether or not they have irritated him.

Here's the crown describing it to us as a single location.
I suspect based on that last line we're going to be testing out our shaping defense against divine curses soon.

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I think you may be misreading that.

I have the source material where most of this is being drawn from, and its pretty clear about the neutral location being the Canals, not any location in the NeverNever. There is nothing ever stated about the Ferryman holding jurisdiction over a patch of the NeverNever.

Just like MacAnally's bar is neutral territory in the real world, and the NeverNever side isnt even mentioned.
Or how the Bali club was neutral territory in the real world, but not the other side.

---

ATP.

He doesn't get to roll against us until the moment we directly go after him, so we get a free opening hit unless he has perfect mental defenses up already. If Gorfel could shoot us in the chest and still force us to roll to remember to use our perfect with a lesser veil while sprinting away in plain view I'm pretty confident in the quality of ours.

That and the alibi of going "what did I do, teleport there from Chicago?" would work wonders on mortal authorities.

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1)He's an apparent Black Court vampire sorcerer of unknown provenance and ancient lore.
One with an apparent history of robbing graves and temples for arfifacts in his lifetime, and presumably after his death.
I would not bet Mollys life or freedom on it.

Vito Malvora got a resist roll against Hellscry Chakra, after all.


2) Given what I have learned of US police history, I dont agree.
The cops dont care. Especially after you have explicitly gone out of the way to piss off a Power in Las Vegas who has influence on that sort of thing.

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There was no magic with the ghost.

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Respectfully, have you read the books?
Do you think anyone without magic can summon and make a deal with a ghost?
And get the ghost to keep it?

He is not young and he was a risk-taker even in life.
Learning a bit of magic rather than rely fully on your physical strength is just sensible, if you have the time.

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Two hundred, at best.
He's youngish for a Blampire. Not a baby, but young. Especially since the last hundred years would have been spent on the run as the Black Court essentially collapsed around them.

All Blampires can apparently learn magic, but most dont; they lack the tutoring, or the drive, or the time.
The fact that this one can, and did, at least two apparent schools (divination, summoning) makes me wary.

Would have to be quite the link.

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We just saw Iku-Turso turn off one of Molly's defensive charms mid-combat. Something Primordials couldnt do to newbie Exalts in original Creation.
We are not the biggest fish in this sea, and the rules are different.

It distresses me when fellow players forget that, and begin to believe our own propaganda.

He's the most trustworthy man in Vegas as long as you have his two gold coins. Which is fitting for his Legend but does make him a god based mob boss.

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The Ferryman does not accept coins, gold or otherwise.He doesnt accept money, either.
In the original RPG scenario, he dealt in secrets and things of value to the other person.
The Dragon dealt with him.

He's only been here since the Canals opened, which would have been around 1999 iirc.