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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Acolyte said:
Bro the babies would hurt themselves. They are learning the dangers of the world and giving then a body builders strength will lead to massive pain and shit.
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We are working under different assumptions, it seems. I assume that if, for example, Lash fleshcrafts little Amanda to Str 5, that would mean that Amanda is a peak human toddler. Not someone with a theoretical peak human strength where she can lift half a ton over her head. Mechanically this would be represented (in my opinion) with a "toddler" flaw which applies difficulty adjusters and dice removers to many situations. Or just imposes caps on how many dice baby Amanda can have in different atrtibutes (like, I can see strength being capped at 1 or 2, and stamina too).

You are also basically arguing (at least as I am reading it) that it's better that the child is less physically well because it's easier on the parent to prevent them from harming themselves. That's true, but definitely not the best option in terms of the child reaching their theoretical maximum potential.
Acolyte said:
If you drop a metal chair bigger than they are on a person, they would be hurt. Stamina doesn't make them bigger and the chair would outmass the baby. Or it could be something heavier like a bookshelf.
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This is internally inconsistent. You cannot propose that Strength 5 means "theoretical peak strength of an adult human" at the same time as arguing that stamina 5 is "theoretical peak stamina / toughness of a toddler". No, in this assumption, baby Amanda would be as tough as possible for an adult human.
BoredMan said:
We can arrange for her to get training when she is older from someone we trust rather than burn AP on it ourselves. What makes Amanda as valuable to attack as a member of Cauldron who we are publicly politically protecting and a memeber of?
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It's not about being attacked. It's about her being able to fully reach her potential (or what potential we can give her). It also doesn't cost us additional AP.
 
Acolyte said:
If you drop a metal chair bigger than they are on a person, they would be hurt. Stamina doesn't make them bigger and the chair would outmass the baby. Or it could be something heavier like a bookshelf.
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Okay this is a bit inside baseball but you calculate bashing soak which it would be bashing damage because you're dropping a regular object that isn't sharp on a person. With stamina 5 she would be able to roll five dice against the bashing at a difficulty of six. With each success reducing the damage by one down to a minimum of zero. Let's assume the falling chair does something like three levels of bashing damage with five stamina she's got about in a rough estimation 30% chance of being uninjured by that with a significant chance of just taking considerably less damage than if she had something like stamina one.
Those incidents happen to all children by the way. It's really up to the parents to stop them from hurting themselves them having higher durability just means there's like a greater chance that you can prevent your child from killing themselves.
 
Yog said:
We are working under different assumptions, it seems. I assume that if, for example, Lash fleshcrafts little Amanda to Str 5, that would mean that Amanda is a peak human toddler. Not someone with a theoretical peak human strength where she can lift half a ton over her head. Mechanically this would be represented (in my opinion) with a "toddler" flaw which applies difficulty adjusters and dice removers to many situations. Or just imposes caps on how many dice baby Amanda can have in different atrtibutes (like, I can see strength being capped at 1 or 2, and stamina too).

You are also basically arguing (at least as I am reading it) that it's better that the child is less physically well because it's easier on the parent to prevent them from harming themselves. That's true, but definitely not the best option in terms of the child reaching their theoretical maximum potential.

This is internally inconsistent. You cannot propose that Strength 5 means "theoretical peak strength of an adult human" at the same time as arguing that stamina 5 is "theoretical peak stamina / toughness of a toddler". No, in this assumption, baby Amanda would be as tough as possible for an adult human.

It's not about being attacked. It's about her being able to fully reach her potential (or what potential we can give her). It also doesn't cost us additional AP.
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A baby with STR 5 has STR 5, maximum natural human strength, Lash's powers do have to play nice biology more than yours, but not as much as say a mortal wizard. When someone with access to the source-code of the universe on how living things get put together says 'this baby is now max human strength' that is what they are. The way the system handles children is that they are capped at STR 1/2 say, Lash using lores blows through that, those molecules will be arranged in a way that can do the job even if the internals might not look entirely human... or terestrial.
 
BoredMan said:
We can arrange for her to get training when she is older from someone we trust rather than burn AP on it ourselves. What makes Amanda as valuable to attack as a member of Cauldron who we are publicly politically protecting and a memeber of?
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I'm going to go farther than Yog here. This child that is named after us that we are the Godparent of is a higher priority Target than the entire order of cauldron. We are someone with two favors from Winter and three from Summer, a maker of Miracles with a known soft spot for people around us. This child as an innocent our godchild daughter of our best friend anyone who is desperate who is our enemy or just want something badly enough can guess the child might be a good way to do that. The desperate might ask us first without doing anything crazy but if they know they're interest run opposite ours they'll do whatever they feel like they need to do.
 
DragonParadox said:
A baby with STR 5 has STR 5, maximum natural human strength, Lash's powers do have to play nice biology more than yours, but not as much as say a mortal wizard. When someone with access to the source-code of the universe on how living things get put together says 'this baby is now max human strength' that is what they are. The way the system handles children is that they are capped at STR 1/2 say, Lash using lores blows through that, those molecules will be arranged in a way that can do the job even if the internals might not look entirely human... or terestrial.
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Ok, so, I'll assume that the same applies to dexterity and stamina too? In that case my proposal would be STR 2, DEX 5, STA 5, and then raise STR to 5 before puberty.

@BoredMan well, somewhat, yes, I'll admit to that. But I insist that the point is not "see what happens", it's "see how much I can help this kid I have affection for".
 
BoredMan said:
Okay so if I'm reading this right...

Your looking at this from a mad scientist tinker stand point. You basicly want to see what will happen if we do a thing and any explanation given for it was thought of after the fact rather than because of it.
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Okay I'm going to try and take that in the best faith possible. I'm of a similar mind in that it is the responsibility of a guardian to prepare the person they are raising the best they are capable of. My parents did it for me. I helped do it for my little brother and sister I really don't understand the resistance to the idea to be frank us being more effective at it due to being exalted really makes it seem to my ear as I don't know what to call it but I don't like it.

The fact of the matter is she lives in a dangerous world if she's possessed of any level of mystical Talent she's already at Target and to be frank there are plenty of things that just Target small children for no reason because Dresden Files is a fucking nightmare even though God hasn't left like a deadbeat dad going to get milk like in world of Darkness.
 
Yog said:
@BoredMan well, somewhat, yes, I'll admit to that. But I insist that the point is not "see what happens", it's "see how much I can help this kid I have affection for".
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That's not the impression I got when you started talking about making the next Merlin but this sort of thing is hard to tell over text.

Also I deleted the comment you and @Degorium are replying to because it was glitched on my end and nothing was fixing it.
 
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Yog said:
That's true, but definitely not the best option in terms of the child reaching their theoretical maximum potential.
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There is no mechnical difference in getting the stats earlier or later. You are still rolling the same number of dice. There is no nebulous potential to be gained.
Yog said:
is internally inconsistent. You cannot propose that Strength 5 means "theoretical peak strength of an adult human" at the same time as arguing that stamina 5 is "theoretical peak stamina / toughness of a toddler". No, in this assumption, baby Amanda would be as tough as possible for an adult human
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People also gets hurt if someone drops a metal pole thing on your head. Max stamina isn't a forcefield.
Degorium said:
Okay this is a bit inside baseball but you calculate bashing soak which it would be bashing damage because you're dropping a regular object that isn't sharp on a person. With stamina 5 she would be able to roll five dice against the bashing at a difficulty of six. With each success reducing the damage by one down to a minimum of zero. Let's assume the falling chair does something like three levels of bashing damage with five stamina she's got about in a rough estimation 30% chance of being uninjured by that with a significant chance of just taking considerably less damage than if she had something like stamina one.
Those incidents happen to all children by the way. It's really up to the parents to stop them from hurting themselves them having higher durability just means there's like a greater chance that you can prevent your child from killing themselves.
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I wouldn't take that chance with my kid.
 
Acolyte said:
There is no mechnical difference in getting the stats earlier or later. You are still rolling the same number of dice. There is no nebulous potential to be gained.

People also gets hurt if someone drops a metal pole thing on your head. Max stamina isn't a forcefield.

I wouldn't take that chance with my kid.
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I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can. No duh you wouldn't take the chance with your kid that's why they spend 95% of their time as infants with their fucking parents.
 
Speaking as someone who has both helped raise children and had to deal with them in a hospital setting, the idea of giving peak human attributes to a baby or a young child with a young child's emotional maturity and restraint is horrifying.
And thats all I will say about that for the moment.

DragonParadox said:
A History of Not​
12th of January 2007 A.D.
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COMMENTARY
Huh.
In his lifetime, Cobbler was associated with Belzoni, who is infamous known for looting Egyptian tombs and burial places.
So the Blampire used to be one of those guys who loots tombs. In particular Egyptian tombs


The cult Ra Descending appears to be interested in is linked to the worship of Egyptian gods.
Im guessing they have something he used to own in his lifetime as a mortal. Or potentially something to alleviate a curse that he incurred during his lifetime of grave robbery; Lash did call Egyptian funerary artefacts curse bait.

So @Yog is right, this is likely a heist.


However, this cult has been attempting to gain control over places of power in Vegas
And you dont usually do that unless you have a use for them.
DragonParadox said:
Rolls
Arlene vs Molly, Harry, Lash
Harry to get a rise out of her vs Willpower
Cyberdevil Search on the name... you get as much as there is out there.
Lydia supernatural awareness... it's ghosts, this isn't subtle
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Point of order:
Molly rolls at least 8 dice for social perception, not 6. Perception 3 + Empathy 5.
Add 2 stunt dice, and it becomes 10 dice.

Degorium said:
The faster we can do with this grave robbing prick the better even if it's not them it'll lead us to them. @uju32 protected by God huh... okay.
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*checks*
There is what appears to be a Greek God here at the Venetian Canals riding one of the gondolas.
Specifically, Charon, ferryman of the dead. Its either the god itself, or someone powerful enough or connected enough to borrow his name without fear of reprisal.

Courtesy costs us nothing, and might save us some aggravation, especially before Lydia goes poking at the ghosts


VOTE
[X] Go inside, try to arrange a greeting with the boss, given the kind of power all of you radiate there's no doubt you will be directed to someone supernatural
 
Degorium said:
This child that is named after us that we are the Godparent of is a higher priority Target than the entire order of cauldron.
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Your looking at this from the perspective of someone reading events from a nearly omniscient viewpoint when it comes to Molly and who she is invested in.
Degorium said:
I really don't understand the resistance to the idea to be frank us being more effective at it due to being exalted really makes it seem to my ear as I don't know what to call it but I don't like it.

The fact of the matter is she lives in a dangerous world if she's possessed of any level of mystical Talent she's already at Target and to be frank there are plenty of things that just Target small children for no reason
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I already explained the issue with giving a baby enhanced strength and even gave an example which you seem to have handwaved. Not to mention the AP aspect of this.


This is just fearmongering not the basis for an argument. You can apply this logic to damn near any other magically inclined human in Chicago we haven't got around to helping yet with the Paranet due to AP hell.
 
BoredMan said:
Your looking at this from the perspective of someone reading events from a nearly omniscient viewpoint when it comes to Molly and who she is invested in.

I already explained the issue with giving a baby enhanced strength and even gave an example which you seem to have handwaved. Not to mention the AP aspect of this.


This is just fearmongering not the basis for an argument. You can apply this logic to damn near any other magically inclined human in Chicago we haven't got around to helping yet with the Paranet due to AP hell.
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We are not one of the two guardians for all of Chicago. Chicago wasn't the one who had three of their friends kidnapped by someone who did Casual observation over the course of two weeks. There is no need to be omniscient to be able to see that we visit Rosie regularly. Hell that doesn't even require actual divination just having someone be able to see traffic cams is enough.

People being able to know that we were at the hospital when the child was born that the child shares a name with us. That we were named godparent at that hospital in public. That one might require divination true but we did it in public.

I really don't care about the strength the strength stat was never my thing alertness and communication was my thing. Dexterity and stamina was my thing the things that allow a child to live if something that is malevolent is coming after it. To be frank I might be fear-mongering but I do feel there is a responsibility as a guardian of a child to educate and protect them as best you as capable of and we can't be in their presence all the time.
 
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BoredMan said:
That's not the impression I got when you started talking about making the next Merlin but this sort of thing is hard to tell over text.

Also I deleted the comment you and @Degorium are replying to because it was glitched on my end and nothing was fixing it.
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The issue, as I see it, is that, unless we cut off contact, and Rosie abandons magic, Amanda is already deeply entangled in the supernatural world. She likely has at least a low-grade magical talent, and it would not surprise me at all if, with proper nurturing, she could fan it to full wizard grade, if she doesn't have it as is. She is also, because of her association with us, inherently in danger and a target for manipulation by supernatural forces. Safety through obscurity doesn't really work because the Dresdenverse world is filled with various monsters, and even if she was just a normal mortal, a chance run-in with a rhampire of a whampire is possible. As such, I believe that it's in her best interest (in the sense that it maximizes her chances of living a long and productive life in whatever way she wishes) to have her physical, mental, and magical potential maximized.
Acolyte said:
People also gets hurt if someone drops a metal pole thing on your head. Max stamina isn't a forcefield.
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No, but it's 5 dice of bashing damage soak.
uju32 said:
The cult Ra Descending appears to be interested in is linked to the worship of Egyptian gods.
Im guessing they have something he used to own in his lifetime as a mortal. Or potentially something to alleviate a curse that he incurred during his lifetime of grave robbery; Lash did call Egyptian funerary artefacts curse bait.
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A possiblity is that the cult is connected to / controlled by Sandra. And they are here for the thing Sin Eater guards. Which might just be an abyssal exaltation. It would make sense - in order to counter an exalt, the best solution is to have an exalt of your own. So, Sandra gets sent to break a black exaltation out of its prison. The name is a bit on the nose, really.

Still, my point is - don't assume these are good guys. I would hesitate to just establish contact like this. First, question spirits, then run a background check (we have a location, it works as a focus), then, if everything checks out, establish contact.
 
uju32 said:
Courtesy costs us nothing, and might save us some aggravation, especially before Lydia goes poking at the ghosts
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Idk about that we could get some vital information that changes the optics of the situation before going in. I'd rather know beforehand even at the risk of someone getting bothered or unnerved or coming off as rude.

[X] Attempt to greet and speak to the dead, Lydia should have some power over them
 
Degorium said:
Chicago wasn't the one who had three of their friends kidnapped by someone who did Casual observation over the course of two weeks.
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You can't use that argument now when before I brought it up myself asking why we don't invest more AP into giving those guys more protection or the ability to protect themselves after they got kidnapped by BS when you want to do so for Amanda and you dismissed them saying that she would seem a bigger priority. Which is debatable when Molly still goes to school and should be hanging out with her previously kidnapped friends much moreso than Rosie.

I'll give it to you that I exaggerated but my point was your looking at this from a biased perspective. Our actions with the baby would only draw more attention to it and show that clearly she's more important than our other friends who we haven't felt the need to invest that kind of time for training into even after they got snatched.
 
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Acolyte said:
What if she takes 6 damage then. Like what if she pulls a bookshelf on top of her. Or climed the roof but got distracted and feel.

Increased capability with same dumb child is not worth the hassle.
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Small children can and do do that on the daily you can read the news it's really sad but it's true also if she takes six levels of bashing damage she soaks with five dice she still has a I think about 5% chance of being uninjured but she's coming out most time with three or four levels of bashing so she's got some bruises but she'll be fine. To be clear seven levels of bashing is enough to knock out a grown mortal man. It's really hard to argue that children being able to not immediately die if they fall off a roof is a bad deal or not worth it.
 
Acolyte said:
What if she takes 6 damage then. Like what if she pulls a bookshelf on top of her. Or climed the roof but got distracted and feel.

Increased capability with same dumb child is not worth the hassle.
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Babies obviously have less than the 7 total wounds of adults so it would be quite bad if she somehow takes 5 wounds, but in any case a stamina of 5 does not mean she will negate five bashing damage, it means she can do so. On average she would negate 3 or so.
 
LightLan said:
You mean a terror for any parent who ever wants to sleep again.
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Malcoffee is a thing that Rosie will swear her eternal loyalty to us for.
Acolyte said:
What if she takes 6 damage then. Like what if she pulls a bookshelf on top of her. Or climed the roof but got distracted and feel.

Increased capability with same dumb child is not worth the hassle.
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What hassle?

And babies are entirely capable of doing all that, especially if left unsupervised, anyway.
 
BoredMan said:
You can't use that argument now when before I brought it up myself asking why we don't invest more AP into giving those guys more protection or the ability to protect themselves after they got kidnapped by BS when you want to do so for Amanda and you dismissed them saying that she would seem a bigger priority. Which is debatable when Molly still goes to school and should be hanging out with her previously kidnapped friends much moreso than Rosie.

I'll give it to you that I exaggerated but my point was your looking at this from a biased perspective. Our actions with the baby would only draw more attention to it and show that clearly she's more important than our other friends who we haven't felt the need to invest that kind of time for training into even after they got snatched.
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That is a really good point I had to think about that for a minute. Well I'm human I just don't actually particularly care about her friends I realize they're important to her intellectually but I literally can't remember their names. Like the only reason I remember that moment in the story is because of the anger at Broken Seeker and the fact we had to kill one of his victims due to him being in the way and the abuser getting away from us or having us in a situation where we couldn't get at him really hurt.

Part of that is narrative because I know intellectually that yeah we spend more time at school hanging out with them but, I remember helping rosie come to her decision about keeping Amanda, I remember us saying we would be there every step of the way, I remember the sessions where we teach her her own Magic, I remember us committing to getting a place with her next month, I remembered the decision to come to the birth of her daughter and her naming her after us. Rosie at least in my mind is our Apprentice our friend someone so close as to name us Godparent over her own mother with her in the room.

All of those come together in a sensation that really really makes me Furious to think of anything bad happening to either of them. I may be exaggerating the danger or things like that but I don't really know how to phrase it. To walk hand in hand with somebody to have them rely on you to have them name their kid after you and then not do your very best to protect them feels very strange.
 
Yog said:
A possiblity is that the cult is connected to / controlled by Sandra. And they are here for the thing Sin Eater guards. Which might just be an abyssal exaltation. It would make sense - in order to counter an exalt, the best solution is to have an exalt of your own. So, Sandra gets sent to break a black exaltation out of its prison. The name is a bit on the nose, really.

Still, my point is - don't assume these are good guys. I would hesitate to just establish contact like this. First, question spirits, then run a background check (we have a location, it works as a focus), then, if everything checks out, establish contact.
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The Sin-Eater guards an apparent breach in reality. Not an item.

Im not assuming they are good guys; Nephandi have classically used religious cults as a cover.
But there's no evidence here one way or the other.
Just that Adkin having the mannerisms of someone more than a century old suggests there's mojo at work.

BoredMan said:
Idk about that we could get some vital information that changes the optics of the situation before going in. I'd rather know beforehand even at the risk of someone getting bothered or unnerved or coming off as rude.
[X] Attempt to greet and speak to the dead, Lydia should have some power over them
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Literally a Greek God on the premises. A psychopomp with power over the dead, at that.
If it takes offense at your poking the dead without talking to it first, at the very best it will actively interfere with any attempts to do any such thing. At worst you get into a unnecessary fight.

I dont see this as being a good idea.

LightLan said:
You mean a terror for any parent who ever wants to sleep again.
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And a danger to all her peers as well.

Because children learn by doing, and a Strength 5, Stamina 5, Dexterity 5 prodigy is going to assume that the same baseline rules apply for it as for the average Strength 2, Stamina 2, Dexterity 2 child, right up until she punches a classmate on the battlefield playground and said child ruptures a spleen.
 
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