Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The point is the magical symbolism. The distance being smaller than it usually doesn't mean it isn't still difficult to manage, and reaching it could itself be a problem.

A single exaltation getting away from a prison potential containing multiple is strange. It seems unlikely mundane forces would accidentally break something like that and that only one would get out if they did.

There's a good chance that the specific conditions of that planetary alignment opens up a crack for things to slip through.

Trying to get in without that advantage seems like it'd be significantly more difficult and/or have additional consequences.

No one was talking about cracking it open just interacting with the comet either physically or directly visually for the crown which if we want to do in the next half a century means 2022 is the best time. Also, I don't buy that the prison relies on astrological phenomenon to damage or release contents. The death of a significant and powerful beings such as Siriothrax at mortal or human hands is much more likely and more uncommon than the repeated turning of the Stars.
 
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Ivy already knows about this. It's a text. And she already knows us either an exalt or a primordial (based on language). Whether we ask her or not won't change her actions. Also, I am fairly sure that Archive can't force Ivy to do things. Prevent her from doing things, but not make her do them. And even if it can, this would be a breach of her neutrality if she explicitely moves to counter balance us specifically.

Of course there are worst case scenarios where we are one of the things she's meant to keep out of Creation, and she's just biding her time, but again, asking her about this won't change anything, I think.
1)She doesnt know.

Its a text written down by one of the Fae Summer Ladies before Aurora, after listening to a 6th century Welsh poet.
Ivy's jurisdiction is Humanity and its knowledge, and as far as we know, the Fae arent mortal enough to count. Not the Fae or any of the diverse members of the nonhuman spirit community.

She doesnt get to know what the Fae write and record unless the writer was a human.


2)No it wouldnt.
The Archive went to war at Battle Grounds against Ethniu and the Fomor, remember? Her neutrality has limits, and that includes if she has reason to believe that actions or information will blow up the rest of the setting.
We dont know most of the rules the Archive operates under. Keep that in mind.
 
1)She doesnt know.

Its a text written down by one of the Fae Summer Ladies before Aurora, after listening to a 6th century Welsh poet.
Ivy's jurisdiction is Humanity and its knowledge, and as far as we know, the Fae arent mortal enough to count. Not the Fae or any of the diverse members of the nonhuman spirit community.

She doesnt get to know what the Fae write and record unless the writer was a human.
@DragonParadox could you confirm this? Because I am fairly sure Ivy gets fae texts too. If nothing else, then because they are somehow related to humanity. And also because Oblivion War wouldn't work otherwise.
 
@DragonParadox could you confirm this? Because I am fairly sure Ivy gets fae texts too. If nothing else, then because they are somehow related to humanity. And also because Oblivion War wouldn't work otherwise.

Ivy does not know about texts written by nonhumans and yes this does make the oblivion war more difficult since it means that any text written by demons, vampires etc... has to be tracked the old fashioned way after finding a human copy. The existence of such loopholes is why the Archive retains awareness of a thing that was assumed to have been purged sometimes for centuries. Though it should be noted the 'human' in her remit is not the same as the White Court's. White Court Vampires for her count as human for instance though not the Red or the Black.
 
Ivy does not know about texts written by nonhumans and yes this does make the oblivion war more difficult since it means that any text written by demons, vampires etc... has to be tracked the old fashioned way after finding a human copy. The existence of such loopholes is why the Archive retains awareness of a thing that was assumed to have been purged sometimes for centuries. Though it should be noted the 'human' in her remit is not the same as the White Court's. White Court Vampires for her count as human for instance though not the Red or the Black.
Which means that she can't read our cyber devil's minds either. Good I was worried about that.
 
@DragonParadox could you confirm this? Because I am fairly sure Ivy gets fae texts too. If nothing else, then because they are somehow related to humanity. And also because Oblivion War wouldn't work otherwise.
I would expect that the Archive would get Fae messages that are sent through human channels, assuming they arent specifically protected by Great Powers.
So if a Fae is sending messages via Whatsapp to another Fae, I expect the Archive can read it just fine.

But Fae written word, not copied by a human, and on paper/stone/whatever?
Or even a Fae created and run computer system would be off-limits.
Ivy does not know about texts written by nonhumans and yes this does make the oblivion war more difficult since it means that any text written by demons, vampires etc... has to be tracked the old fashioned way after finding a human copy. The existence of such loopholes is why the Archive retains awareness of a thing that was assumed to have been purged sometimes for centuries. Though it should be noted the 'human' in her remit is not the same as the White Court's. White Court Vampires for her count as human for instance though not the Red or the Black.
Hell, I would not be surprised if humans under the patronage of Great Powers would be able to hide their comms.

I mean, the Denarian plot to kidnap Ivy would have been a lot more difficult to arrange if the Denarians couldnt secure their communications and planning against the person they were plotting against.
 
Hell, I would not be surprised if humans under the patronage of Great Powers would be able to hide their comms.

I mean, the Denarian plot to kidnap Ivy would have been a lot more difficult to arrange if the Denarians couldnt secure their communications and planning against the person they were plotting against.
The fact that Nicodemus very carefully had everyone not say the name Hades when plotting to rob him argues against this. They just know how to practice proper information security.
 
Ivy already knows about this. It's a text. And she already knows us either an exalt or a primordial (based on language). Whether we ask her or not won't change her actions. Also, I am fairly sure that Archive can't force Ivy to do things. Prevent her from doing things, but not make her do them. And even if it can, this would be a breach of her neutrality if she explicitely moves to counter balance us specifically.

Of course there are worst case scenarios where we are one of the things she's meant to keep out of Creation, and she's just biding her time, but again, asking her about this won't change anything, I think.
Not necessarily. The Archive copies all mortal records and seems localized to earth at that.

This is a poem written by a Sidhe in Faerie. Fey can't give things permission to poke the mortal world with their memory, they're one of the things that would be blocked out by mortals forgetting them. Mab explicitly spread around brothers Grimm and later Disney stuff to make this all but impossible.

Reading everything in the spirit world is a significantly harder task than what the archive is doing and doesn't offer much gain for the effort.

It does force her to do things, insofar as there's a difference between them. The Archive has a job, Ivy does it and has no other option while it's hers.

The relief valve is supposed to be that an Archive can choose to pass it on if they can't do the job anymore, but Ivy has no family to give it to.

As to the neutrality bit; that's in service to the job. The crown is a special case that can easily be argued to be a problem the Archive must see addressed or risk complete failure. Ivy can't build herself a kingdom, but things like the true Venatori are proof of her ability to gather resources to advance and protect her position in the war.
The appearance of one of the only two currently serving Knights of the Cross suggests otherwise.
Heaven presumably took a look at a whole list of shit outside North America before sending Sanya to the Norway/Russia border.
Not every job they pull is about crazy high level stuff. That thing in Cleveland for example; it would have been bad, but it wasn't a profound sign of anything.


We dont know this. One way or the other.
Whether the stars actually cause the events, or are just visual indicators for other deeper cycles has never been made clear.
You're the one making strong claims here; if it's unclear the null hypothesis is that they aren't.


The people in the know actually have been around long enough to have some idea about when to play games and when not to.
Longterm homeowners dont drag their trash to the curb everyday, only on trash day.
Follow the movements of local events and reacting explains it better. Nobody has complete information, they know enough to make good plays but not so much that they can make perfect ones.

It doesn't open up questions like "why did Hades know all this, but the fallen didn't and got played for it?". You could just keep piling on restrictions, but at that point you're just taping over plot holes.

Its presumably not a new restriction.
The Raksha had no authority over Exaltations when they were Raksha; I dont see how that changes after they became Dresdenverse Fae.

No, thats nonsense. The Primordials and Neverborn of Creation could exert no control over the choices of the Exaltations; even when the Yozi stapled first circle demons on the Infernal Exaltations they suborned to change their criteria, they were essentially along for the ride as the Exaltation insisted on making its own choices.

Mab's potent.
She's not "manipulate a Celestial Exaltation's choices" potent. Neither, as far as I know, is Mother Winter.
There's a difference between not be able to attempt something and be blocked from succeeding.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the exaltation being impossible to manipulate. The base criteria literally did change completely for different exalt types when they got reworked, and that's not even what Mab would need to do here.

When Uriel arranged for Molly to exalt he didn't strong arm the exaltation, he arranged for it to get loose when she was the only even vaguely valid option nearby and it couldn't get away on its own*. That's why she even got it in the first place instead of going to a person with a stronger infernal resonance.

Getting a marginal candidate into her own garden with no other mortals in the same dimension to choose from before getting grabbed again doesn't require primordial power to arrange if you know the trick of it.

* The exaltation is not an exalt. It can do a lot, but without a wielder there are more limits. Which is why trapping them worked where putting the entire Solar deliberative in a single box and keeping them there would have energetic consequences.
We're an E3 Exalt, not a Primordial or an Angel or a Celestine or even a high-tier Incarna.
You significantly overestimate our capabilities if you think that we can materially alter the activation of an Exaltation by scrying it. Thats my opinion.
Not by scrying it alone, but the dragon blooded didn't need to be Celestines to materially effect their activation by opening the door to their cage. I find it unlikely we're going to scry it and leave it alone if we see a working prison.


Im honestly not seeing where you are getting this from. Im not seeking to release more Exalts; I am on record as stating that the Black Vault would be a disaster if it existed and was cracked open. I just happen to believe that you cant sit out an arms race; this is important enough that we cant afford to let other people get a jump on us.

Thats what I voted for.

A person you can argue we'd be mandated to free.
A naked Exaltation? If its dormant, Im quite happy to keep it that way until/unless its ready to move.
As long as we can keep it out of the hands of everyone else that might want to fuck with it while its dormant.
Where I'm getting this from is that we're clearly not just taking a peek. This is most likely going to end with us going to get the thing.

There's also the issue of people picking up information from us. It's not like we have something to protect us from being spied on. Going to add things to the defenses could easily be the thing that reveals them.

If this stuff could be immediately turned into an exaltation road map without our input I'd expect Summer to be on the way to attempting to free a Lunar by now. Our input isn't necessarily a requirement, but it's highly likely to dramatically ease the process.


Plot hooks that have been demonstrated to be actively in motion generally are.

The stone egg thing we saw in Sanya's Interlude was actively sought out by some shapeshifter magician of some sort.
And the QM has stated that they were rolling dice for this sort of thing.
Ignorance does not help us, whether or not we have any interest in hastening any processes.
Progress isn't the same as success. I don't doubt Emma-O has been looking for a another infernal shard since he got the first one, but despite having personal knowledge of how they're hidden, what they look like, and access to the region containing them he's got nothing.

It'll happen eventually, but I don't see a particular reason to believe anyone is doing very well yet.


Lunars are as careful or uncaring as any other Celestial.
There's a reason the original fiction for ExWoD was a Solar showing up at Elysium and YOLOing a venue full of high-tier vampires with a horsehead mask and a mall-bought katana.

Thats the sort of thing that depends on the person, not the type of Exalt.
True, but I was thinking more about stuff like this:

Once upon a time the Lunar Exalted were guard- ians, then slaves, then wild and bloody souls who chewed off parts of themselves to escape their chains, and grew stronger for it. Now they are Chosen from among the outcast and forsaken, the unwanted and broken, the different and discarded. At long last, they no longer have a grand and unifying agenda.
They have power. A Lunar's power carries with it only one insistent and absolute command: that it be used. A Lunar's course through the World of Darkness is one entirely of her own choosing, but rest assured that her passing will transform those lives she touches, and end those which attempt to restrain her.
They're not the worst option or anything, though a well built one will be able to kick our ass pretty quickly if we don't leverage our crafting edge well enough, but Lunars have a whole thing about being outcasts and not playing well with groups.
And if I must have one, I'd rather have a friendly one, or at least one that hasnt been stuffed into a Monstrance/Caul or otherwise suborned by one of our opps because we chose to sit on our hands and hope that if we ignored it really hard that it would go away.

Assuming this is a Lunar, of course. It could always be something else from the Fae, back when they were still Raksha.

I mean, I am trying to get my head around the idea that a high lord of the Fae would want a Lunar or Lunars running around, or that the Fae would weep at the idea that it didnt happen.
And Im not really convinced.
Friendly is better than not yeah, but I containing a Lunar long term isn't an easy thing.

I think there are good odds it's a lunar; the themes are right and this sort of prison setup isn't as necessary for Rakasha.

It's worth noting that he seemed to be the only one, and that everyone else disagreed with him because a rogue lunar would have been a disaster. It looks like he felt that way in the end too.

My read is that he had a specific person he wanted to exalt, but before it could happen they did something that disqualified them from becoming a lunar. Rather than roll the dice he locked it away.

Summer fey could weep for the death of a well meant and wondrous dream dying even if they didn't want it to succeed. Feeling sorrow isn't the same as being sorry after all.
 
They're not the worst option or anything, though a well built one will be able to kick our ass pretty quickly if we don't leverage our crafting edge well enough, but Lunars have a whole thing about being outcasts and not playing well with groups.

Friendly is better than not yeah, but I containing a Lunar long term isn't an easy thing.

I think there are good odds it's a lunar; the themes are right and this sort of prison setup isn't as necessary for Rakasha.

It's worth noting that he seemed to be the only one, and that everyone else disagreed with him because a rogue lunar would have been a disaster. It looks like he felt that way in the end too.

My read is that he had a specific person he wanted to exalt, but before it could happen they did something that disqualified them from becoming a lunar. Rather than roll the dice he locked it away.

Summer fey could weep for the death of a well meant and wondrous dream dying even if they didn't want it to succeed. Feeling sorrow isn't the same as being sorry after all.

Lunars are above all else survivors. They were outcasts in the Age of Sorrows because they were most of the Anathema of that age, as the Immaculate Order called them. What do you need to survive when the movers and shakers of the universe hate you and want you to die? The skills of the outcast.
 
No one was talking about cracking it open just interacting with the comet either physically or directly visually for the crown which if we want to do in the next half a century means 2022 is the best time. Also, I don't buy that the prison relies on astrological phenomenon to damage or release contents. The death of a significant and powerful beings such as Siriothrax at mortal or human hands is much more likely and more uncommon than the repeated turning of the Stars.
The precise condition is debatable, but I think the actual arrangement is at least part of it because the magic involved is clearly following a theme.

I also don't buy that we'd build a spaceship and take a ~40 million mile road trip to look at the thing and come home. Especially given the ongoing debate on exactly the issue of whether letting the exalted loose on the world is a good idea or not.
 
The precise condition is debatable, but I think the actual arrangement is at least part of it because the magic involved is clearly following a theme.

I also don't buy that we'd build a spaceship and take a ~40 million mile road trip to look at the thing and come home. Especially given the ongoing debate on exactly the issue of whether letting the exalted loose on the world is a good idea or not.

It's because of theming that I think it's Mortals or humans killing shit they shouldn't be able to by themselves that causes the Vault to crack open.

To be honest the 40 million Mile Road Trip would be to probably grab it if we just wanted to look at it it would probably be like a couple hundred thousand mile road trip with a good telescope so we can sniper a couple of questions on the scene and the thing and then let it pass.

Also nothing about the prison requires it to be flying through space anyway. So even if we did grab it we don't have to open it we could just take it to our world and then come back.
 
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That bit about the moon reminds me of the inhabitants of the Silver Chair (the moon as a physical object, aka Luna's spaceship). They are themselves a strange form of fae.
 
Does anyone remember what we did with that Yin sword we got back from Dresden did we give it to our brother or something I can't remember and I don't remember what chapter it was in?
 
It's because of theming that I think it's Mortals or humans killing shit they shouldn't be able to by themselves that causes the Vault to crack open.
The text we got had the explanation of a thief bringing back its prize from the darkness into the light. Presumably the part where a comet actually ablates away and looks like it's on fire is part of the whole "bring into the light" thing.
To be honest the 40 million Mile Road Trip would be to probably grab it if we just wanted to look at it it would probably be like a couple hundred thousand mile road trip with a good telescope so we can sniper a couple of questions on the scene and the thing and then let it pass.
Flying into space to look at it wasn't really what was being discussed though? Sure that might be interesting, but we could also get a picture of the comet and ask that way.
Also nothing about the prison requires it to be flying through space anyway. So even if we did grab it we don't have to open it we could just take it to our world and then come back
We don't know anything about it yet. For all we know it does, or benefits from it without strictly needing it. At minimum being in the Oort Cloud most of the time makes it hard to get at for local players.

Putting it in our hell is something, but I'm not sure it's a good idea since it encourages invasions and if something did go wrong it could get nasty.

Maybe they just exalt people on our planet, maybe they try to leave and it triggers the defenses of Molly's exaltation like CCG-ing to/from the FCF would. Subsequently setting off a multi-exaltation bitch fit inside Molly's soul.

Even for an infernal "box containing an unknown number of pissy lunar shards" is edging into energy field larger than your head territory.

Does anyone remember what we did with that Yin sword we got back from Dresden did we give it to our brother or something I can't remember and I don't remember what chapter it was in?
From the martial arts trip to hell we kept it but told him we would let him have it once he was good enough to use it safely.

There was also some discussion of using it as a reagent to make a better weapon for him, both to make it more effective and to hide the origin so it doesn't paint a target on his back. Didn't make it into the vote though.
 
Unrelated to all this, but don't we have three of exorcisms to perform?

If we're planning on using the crown against nemesis and trying to soul kill the individual pieces we probably want a ritual space set up for our charms. Which has the complication of hinting at how our buffs work, and asking the Queen of Summer for a walk in freezer if we try to use WHWH.
 
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Unrelated to all this, but don't we have three of exorcisms to perform?

If we're planning on using the crown against nemesis and trying to soul kill the individual pieces we probably want a ritual space set up for our charms. Which has the complication of hinting at how our buffs work, and asking the Queen of Summer for a walk in freezer if we try to use WHWH.

With our occult we could disguise the cold accommodations as a necessity of the ritual an evocation of Winter thru cold and wet the prime enemy of this age to those who break the gates of the outside.

The inside of our hell acts as a world body which means having exaltations in there would just exalt people inside of our hell you wouldn't cause an energy field thing to happen very least it shouldn't because well those people are of us they are not us they are built from our Essence and they pay their respects and they are inherently made up from us but they are not us no more than any other Offspring are I guess.

My guess about why it's in space is because just the sheer distance the exaltations will have to travel makes it less likely to start budging or breaking the prison the fact that at its pass a while ago something broke out makes it seem like just the sheer distances involved are why it's out there rather than any metaphysical reason it's just not as powerful as the Jade prison was so being close to Mortals who fit the criteria is enough to make them to shake loose and break apart the prison they're in.

Thanks for the Intel about the sword.
 
Remember Ivy talking about the Archives restrictions towards neutrality, and avoiding altering the balance of power?
I do.
Yes I remember. I figured it couldn't hurt to simply ask a question anyway. Realisticly the worst she can say is no.
Which has the complication of hinting at how our buffs work, and asking the Queen of Summer for a walk in freezer if we try to use WHWH.
It's something to keep in mind but they have no reason to think those aren't just weird requirements for our forgotten magic.
 
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