Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I posted the literal quote "are the outsiders the same outsiders for every universe or is there a different set of outsiders for every universe?"
I'm pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy.
This is butchers exact wording how would this mean anything except the outsiders are always the same beings? Hes said separately for Odin and Mab that they have different version but made it clear outsiders are always the outsiders.
Easy.

The Outsiders are always the Outsiders as a group. Same goals, same methods.
That does not appear to be the same thing as saying that individual Outsiders being multiversal.Especially since the Outsiders appear to have something resembling a hivemind, according to Harry, which is why they can coordinate perfectly.


Can I get a link to where the quote was given, and the context?
I dont know if I have asked for it before.
But Im asking now.
 
The Outsiders are always the Outsiders as a group. Same goals, same methods.
I wouldn't bet on "same goals, same methods", considering that White God is most likely an Outsider.

I also severely doubt that the Outsiders besieging the Dresdenverse are the only Outsiders out there. Just the one most interested in it.
And then you have the fun Outsider things from Exalted on top of it all.
 
There is no indication that any such restriction is in effect.
If the bigger guys couldnt threaten the defenses, then it would make sense for the Fae to stay behind them and throw whatever the equivalent of rocks and arrows are at the footsoldiers.

Instead they go out to fight them in front of the Gates to keep them away from the Gates, and have done so for so long that the ground is carpeted in bones.
Which suggests that no, they dont want the footsoldiers or the bigger guys near the Gates.
This isfaulty logic. The Great Old Ones might be very powerful and dangerous Outside, they just can't pass the gate, while lesser Outsiders can (under some restrictions, possibly). That's a perfectly valid setup.
 
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]
-[X] Hint that there is more you can't say presently and ask for a soul visit from the archive, at her earliest convenience.

Can we do a medium disclosure, but with some kind of hinting that Ivy should visit our soul at first opportunity so we can do full disclosure, too?
Out of all the secret powers in the world, the Archive is the one that we can trust the most not to misuse this knowledge (outside of Heaven, but they already know so it's moot) and benefits the most from knowing exactly what we can do and can provide us with the greatest amount of foci for asking questions, both for our and her interests.

One side can provide all the questions. The other can ask all the questions. A full alliance benefits both immensely and we should form it as soon as possible.
 
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Easy.

The Outsiders are always the Outsiders as a group. Same goals, same methods.
That does not appear to be the same thing as saying that individual Outsiders being multiversal.Especially since the Outsiders appear to have something resembling a hivemind, according to Harry, which is why they can coordinate perfectly.


Can I get a link to where the quote was given, and the context?
I dont know if I have asked for it before.
But Im asking now.
its from a video its hard to hear took me a few times to get the exact quote. Which I gave you and I'm honestly really annoyed with this cause thats obviously not what they asked Jim. They asked if they were always the same or had different iterations and Butcher said no their always the outsiders. To think that means something else is quite annoying in all honesty.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2CsC_akli8&t=468s
its around 7 minutes.
 
When Knowing's Half the Battle​
3rd of January 2007 A.D.
COMMENTARY
DPoE proc's on the Hellhound. I wonder how he felt upon Molly entering the room
First time Molly fumbles a Perception + Empathy roll against a Creature of Darkness, so I cant even satisfy my curiosity
:stuckout tongue:

Oh wow.
Ivy didnt know a Fallen's Shadow had been incarnated until Lash stepped into the bar.
That must have been a surprise.

I wonder what MacAnally thought when he saw Lash.

Killed then interrogated.
This is the second time that we have had it implied that Outsiders can interfere, at least temporarily, with the destination of souls. The first time was when the Walker we killed said he would ensure that our soul would reach its destination.


I wouldn't bet on "same goals, same methods", considering that White God is most likely an Outsider.

I also severely doubt that the Outsiders besieging the Dresdenverse are the only Outsiders out there. Just the one most interested in it.
And then you have the fun Outsider things from Exalted on top of it all.
I dont recall any evidence for the White God being an Outsider, or a Primordial, or any other class of creature we've seen in the merged setting. Not even the angels appear to be. The White God's angels alone appear to operate on a much grander scale than the Outsiders, let alone the White God himself/herself/itself.

I cant speak for whether all Outsiders are interested in mortal Creation.
There's no evidence one way or the other.
This is faulty logic. The Great Old Ones might be very powerful and dangerous Outside, they just can't pass the gate, while lesser Outsiders can (under some restrictions, possibly). That's a perfectly valid setup.
We see Rashid and Mother Summer at the Gates.
Neither implies that there's a perfect effect on the Gates that caps the potential risks, nor has Butcher stated or implied in any of his WoGs that any particular Outsiders arent allowed to tackle the defenses.

If they are as buff as you think, a concentrated attack involving several of them would have overloaded the Fae Courts. Or they'd simply send someone along with the knowledge to summon them; we do see He Who Walks Behind summoned twice in canon using mortal-accessible rituals; the second time, it wasnt even a wizard doing the summoning, just a strega.

Furthermore?
If like you are asserting, mortals, or even Starborn, can learn Ancient Sorcery, one of the Starborn they were dominating/bamboozling in the early days would have gotten lessons for Calibration Gate to summon them through.
 
COMMENTARY
DPoE proc's on the Hellhound. I wonder how he felt upon Molly entering the room
First time Molly fumbles a Perception + Empathy roll against a Creature of Darkness, so I cant even satisfy my curiosity
:stuckout tongue:

Oh wow.
Ivy didnt know a Fallen's Shadow had been incarnated until Lash stepped into the bar.
That must have been a surprise.

I wonder what MacAnally thought when he saw Lash.

Killed then interrogated.
This is the second time that we have had it implied that Outsiders can interfere, at least temporarily, with the destination of souls. The first time was when the Walker we killed said he would ensure that our soul would reach its destination.



I dont recall any evidence for the White God being an Outsider, or a Primordial, or any other class of creature we've seen in the merged setting. Not even the angels appear to be. The White God's angels alone appear to operate on a much grander scale than the Outsiders, let alone the White God himself/herself/itself.

I cant speak for whether all Outsiders are interested in mortal Creation.
There's no evidence one way or the other.

We see Rashid and Mother Summer at the Gates.
Neither implies that there's a perfect effect on the Gates that caps the potential risks, nor has Butcher stated or implied in any of his WoGs that any particular Outsiders arent allowed to tackle the defenses.

If they are as buff as you think, a concentrated attack involving several of them would have overloaded the Fae Courts. Or they'd simply send someone along with the knowledge to summon them; we do see He Who Walks Behind summoned twice in canon using mortal-accessible rituals; the second time, it wasnt even a wizard doing the summoning, just a strega.

Furthermore?
If like you are asserting, mortals, or even Starborn, can learn Ancient Sorcery, one of the Starborn they were dominating/bamboozling in the early days would have gotten lessons for Calibration Gate to summon them through.
so are you gonna watch the video? I don't have any idea how you misconstrue the quote.

Eh this assumes that their able to attack the gate at all, metaphysically the gaps could be too small to come through, or they have a set of rules which prevents them from directly acting at all.
 
VOTE
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]


She doesnt currently have need to know about Molly's Crown.
And Kincaid certainly doesnt have need to know about Molly's Crown either.


Church we went to right after the exaltation, Harry´s house when we told Bob. Cant remember where we told Lydia but might have been the Carpenter house. But if we trust the Carpenter house we cant trust this place, cause ya know the angel over there.

Short is, if we consider the soul space the only safe place to talk about it... we already failed.
The Carpenter House is actively warded by loyalist angels.
Mac's bar is a neutral zone, but its not warded at the highest levels against intrustion. When Odin wanted to brief Dresden about Nicodemus and Anduriel in Skin Game, he had Mab there to fend off any magical spying. Just in case.
 
So mid term I wanna get a deal going with the archive for information about exalted think we could do that while their here in Chicago?
 
I really don't get these random DC hikes. You might as well say it should be lower because Molly is good at reading people. Or his rolls for poker face should be higher. Or is stone faced some merit?

[X] [ALMOST FULL DISCLOSURE]: Explain your crown. She doesn't need to know the limitations only that there are limitations.

Mostly because it's impossible for us to actually high for her that we have super high level divination. But we don't need to say everything.
 
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This is something both you Bronze tongue and Uju do Which is it are Exalts Behemoths on the playground that get to do whatever they want, Or are they humans with a limited supply of power Liable to face resistance to pretty much anything they want to do.
You can't have it both ways either. We treat them as humans that have a kind of wide breath of supernatural abilities. Or we stopped pretending like we're human. But you can't have us pussy footing around All the time and then pretend like adding More exalts is suddenly going to make the world crazy.
We either act like a world shaking power or we decide. We're not a world shaking power and we have peers and adversaries what you cannot pretend like These people would exist in a vacuum.
I cannot stand this constant advocacy for non action as if that is better than making a mistake. Or committing to a course of action and correcting on point. It's not it literally, isn't. It's worse in pretty much everyway.
1) This isn't a binary thing, it's a spectrum. Exalts aren't completely unstoppable but they are very strong, grow very quickly, and have access to very deep and exotic perfect effects. They also have the freedom to act of a regular mortal, which allows them to do a lot more with their power than most things with similar abilities.

Take Molly for example. If we didn't care about the consequences and were only out for ourselves how much damage could she cause? With the right build she could do things ranging from global economic collapse in an afternoon to selling god's plans to the devil.

Can she be beaten? Yes. Could she do a lot of harm on the way down, or win enough to cut out a kingdom of her own at everyone else's expense? Also yes. In any case they don't need to be successful to make a mess.

2) It's precisely because they're humans with power that this is something we need to be so careful about. We are being very careful about things to help without causing harm, but people do not all have the same views or priorities.

I've given multiple examples of plausible scenarios in which power will not make things better for the people involved. At this level we're not talking about something complicated, abstract, or improbable. If you give people power they're going to use it for their own purposes, and they have no obligation to see things your way.

3) This isn't advocating to do nothing, it's advocating not to drink bleach. We can make things better without biting this particular bullet.

I believe I provided reasonable counter-measures and examples for each of the scenarios you mentioned, but they haven't convinced you. I don't actually expect to convince you, or much of anyone else.
Not that I recall.

Unless I'm forgetting something you've raised two basic counter points.

1) Controlling who has access, which is technically possible for some of them but so difficult the people designing them didn't bother. Just locking them up was already a trial.

2) Somehow getting in contact with them as they're chosen all over the world and getting them to sign up with us. Which doesn't account for the fact that these are going to be people with their own motives and beliefs that we have no reason to believe would be in alignment with ours.

Suppose we get a Lunar with a grudge, more interested in killing fey nobles than in any consequences of their actions. How about a day caste who thinks the masquerade should come down, regardless of the casualties involved in just doing it? Betting everything on being able to talk other exalts down from their own motives is not a good plan.

We are starting from a much, much better position than original generation of exalted, during the Age of Legends, or during thr Age of Sorrows.
No we aren't, not in this respect at least.

The age of legends didn't really have any much in the way of cultural or religious divides, and the open warfare consumed so much attention there wasn't time for serious political knife fighting for the most part.

After it was over the concentration of power kept things running, but there's a reason that the dragon blooded kept hunting Solars down instead of trying to salvage them.


As reasonable people, in a society of their peers, with support from forces of heaven, they'll either reach a reasonable compromise, or agree to disagree amicably, if that's possible, or try both ideas if that's possible to figure out which works best, or face the censure of their peers, and elders. I'll expand on this later.
Which is why the UN has solved all global conflicts right?

People aren't 100% reasonable all of the time, and even when they are trying to be it doesn't stop conflicts of interest.

I'm also skeptical of the idea that we could run all over the planet, crossing variably hostile territory, to pick up every single exalt out there and convince them to all cooperate despite having nothing in common but power. Especially once other powers start making offers.

Every full wizard is capable of summoning outsiders, rapidly raising armies of brainwashed slaves, including magic using slaves, raising armies of undead, in theory breaking time itself. The magic is inherently self-reinforcing and corrupting if used for evil.

Warlocks are a fact of life. You are underestimating them.
Most warlocks are minor talents who are fairly weak. They can do nasty stuff, but for the majority of history they weren't really able to become more than a local problem most of the time.

Proper wizards are dangerous, but they take a relatively long time to grow into that power fully and need a lot of training to really get up there. They're also vulnerable to the basic human condition, as Butcher notes in his WoG.

Also worth noting that people like Molly and Dresden are wizard heavyweight champions. Summoning evil stuff is on the table for them, but the average wizard isn't going to be animating armies of zombies easily.

They're an accounted for part of the world that has a long spin up time and have to put a lot more work into breaking the rules.

A wizard can't really replicate the crown of eyes, launch high grade global range curses on nearly arbitrary numbers with zero warning, or permanently kill true immortals without playing the special circumstances game.

The white council isn't a good example for what you want anyway. Its core purpose is to limit the power of wizards over the mortal world, something that was important to keeping it together in the first place. It's noted in a WoG that there's a lot of stuff they couldn't get involved with in the first place, because having members from all over the world meant that poking things would inevitably cause internal conflict. We'd have the same problem.
 
so are you gonna watch the video? I don't have any idea how you misconstrue the quote.
I just did.
I have no idea how you got the impression that the Outsiders are multiversal from that quote.

He said "Im pretty sure the Outsiders are the Outsiders, they just kinda look different depending on what universe they are trying to get into and destroy. But yeah, as far as multiverses go, we'll see more about that in book 17".
At no point does he say that individual Outsiders are multiversal.

I really don't get these random DC hikes. You might as well say it should be lower because Molly is good at reading people. Or his rolls for poker face should be higher. Or is stone faced some merit?
Kincaid is known as the Hellhound or the Hound of Hell.
He was born of a mortal woman and a demon, and he is several centuries older than Ebenezar at a minimum.
"Let's start simple," I said. "How do you know Kincaid?"
He blew out a breath, cheeks puffing out. "He's in the trade."
"The trade?"
"Yes." Ebenezar sat down on the other end of the couch. The puppy got up on wobbling legs and snuffled over to examine him. His tail started wagging. Ebenezar gave the little dog a brief smile and scratched his ears. "Most of the major supernatural powers have someone for that kind of work. Ortega was the Red Court's, for example. Kincaid and I are contemporaries, of a sort."
"You're assassins," I said.
He didn't deny it.
"Didn't look like you liked him much," I said.
"There are proprieties between us," Ebenezar said. "A measure of professional courtesy and respect. Boundaries. Kincaid crossed them about a century ago in Istanbul."
"He's not human?"
Ebenezar shook his head.
"Then what is he?"
"There are people walking around who carry the blood of the Nevernever in them," Ebenezar said. "Changelings, for one, those who are half-Sidhe. The faeries aren't the only ones who can breed with humanity, though, and the scions of such unions can have a lot of power. Their offspring are usually malformed. Freakish. Often insane. But sometimes the child looks human."

"Like Kincaid."
Ebenezar nodded. "He's older than I am. When I met him, I still had hair and he had been serving the creature for centuries."
"What creature?" I asked.
"The creature," Ebenezar said. "Another half mortal like Kincaid. Vlad Drakul."

I blinked. "Vlad Tepesh? Dracula?"
Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion. The original creature is… well. Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel. And Kincaid was his right arm for centuries. He was known as the Hound of Hell. Or just the Hellhound."
"And he's afraid of you," I said, my voice bitter. "Blackstaff McCoy. I guess that's your working name."
"Something like that. The name… is a long story."
"Get started, then," I said.
It makes sense that the DC's for reading a centuries old immortal scion are a wee bit higher than those for reading just any mortal.
 
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Kincaid is known as the Hellhound or the Hound of Hell.
He was born of a mortal woman and a demon, and he is several centuries older than Ebenezar at a minimum.
"Let's start simple," I said. "How do you know Kincaid?"
He blew out a breath, cheeks puffing out. "He's in the trade."
"The trade?"
"Yes." Ebenezar sat down on the other end of the couch. The puppy got up on wobbling legs and snuffled over to examine him. His tail started wagging. Ebenezar gave the little dog a brief smile and scratched his ears. "Most of the major supernatural powers have someone for that kind of work. Ortega was the Red Court's, for example. Kincaid and I are contemporaries, of a sort."
"You're assassins," I said.
He didn't deny it.
"Didn't look like you liked him much," I said.
"There are proprieties between us," Ebenezar said. "A measure of professional courtesy and respect. Boundaries. Kincaid crossed them about a century ago in Istanbul."
"He's not human?"
Ebenezar shook his head.
"Then what is he?"
"There are people walking around who carry the blood of the Nevernever in them," Ebenezar said. "Changelings, for one, those who are half-Sidhe. The faeries aren't the only ones who can breed with humanity, though, and the scions of such unions can have a lot of power. Their offspring are usually malformed. Freakish. Often insane. But sometimes the child looks human."

"Like Kincaid."
Ebenezar nodded. "He's older than I am. When I met him, I still had hair and he had been serving the creature for centuries."
"What creature?" I asked.
"The creature," Ebenezar said. "Another half mortal like Kincaid. Vlad Drakul."

I blinked. "Vlad Tepesh? Dracula?"
Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion. The original creature is… well. Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel. And Kincaid was his right arm for centuries. He was known as the Hound of Hell. Or just the Hellhound."
"And he's afraid of you," I said, my voice bitter. "Blackstaff McCoy. I guess that's your working name."
"Something like that. The name… is a long story."
"Get started, then," I said.
It makes sense that the DC's for reading a centuries old immortal scion are a wee bit higher than those for reading just any mortal.
So? We have talked to loads of other old people and have a super old person advisor in our head. If we want to say his old person skill makes him hard to read give him more dice on poker face. This is an opposed roll and seems to just be getting a free bonus not based on skill.

You could also say that he should have a lower DC for being confronted by a young overlady.
 
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I just did.
I have no idea how you got the impression that the Outsiders are multiversal from that quote.

He said "Im pretty sure the Outsiders are the Outsiders, they just kinda look different depending on what universe they are trying to get into and destroy. But yeah, as far as multiverses go, we'll see more about that in book 17".
At no point does he say that individual Outsiders are multiversal.


Kincaid is known as the Hellhound or the Hound of Hell.
He was born of a mortal woman and a demon, and he is several centuries older than Ebenezar at a minimum.
"Let's start simple," I said. "How do you know Kincaid?"
He blew out a breath, cheeks puffing out. "He's in the trade."
"The trade?"
"Yes." Ebenezar sat down on the other end of the couch. The puppy got up on wobbling legs and snuffled over to examine him. His tail started wagging. Ebenezar gave the little dog a brief smile and scratched his ears. "Most of the major supernatural powers have someone for that kind of work. Ortega was the Red Court's, for example. Kincaid and I are contemporaries, of a sort."
"You're assassins," I said.
He didn't deny it.
"Didn't look like you liked him much," I said.
"There are proprieties between us," Ebenezar said. "A measure of professional courtesy and respect. Boundaries. Kincaid crossed them about a century ago in Istanbul."
"He's not human?"
Ebenezar shook his head.
"Then what is he?"
"There are people walking around who carry the blood of the Nevernever in them," Ebenezar said. "Changelings, for one, those who are half-Sidhe. The faeries aren't the only ones who can breed with humanity, though, and the scions of such unions can have a lot of power. Their offspring are usually malformed. Freakish. Often insane. But sometimes the child looks human."

"Like Kincaid."
Ebenezar nodded. "He's older than I am. When I met him, I still had hair and he had been serving the creature for centuries."
"What creature?" I asked.
"The creature," Ebenezar said. "Another half mortal like Kincaid. Vlad Drakul."

I blinked. "Vlad Tepesh? Dracula?"
Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion. The original creature is… well. Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel. And Kincaid was his right arm for centuries. He was known as the Hound of Hell. Or just the Hellhound."
"And he's afraid of you," I said, my voice bitter. "Blackstaff McCoy. I guess that's your working name."
"Something like that. The name… is a long story."
"Get started, then," I said.
It makes sense that the DC's for reading a centuries old immortal scion are a wee bit higher than those for reading just any mortal.
It literally means there aren't multiple iterations of outsiders there are only the outsiders. As opposed to say Mab or Odin who have different iterations the outsiders do not.

When asking if there are different iterations of them he said no. There are different harry dresdens, there are different Mabs, there are different odins. There are not different Uriels and there are not different Outsiders.
 
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