Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I don't see anything other than "trust me bro" here. Fix is marginal, but the guy was also a changling beforehand and even tossing around fire beams doesn't make you a heavy hitter.

The knights are a big deal, but we're told they exist to let the queens bend their rules. The core one being that the fey queens can't kill any mortal who isn't bound to the courts.
I think butter's speculation has a lot more weight than yours does here.

Edit:
I have spent time to track down and provide quotes from Summer Knight.
I have pointed out that Battle Grounds had the Knights acting as both field commanders and agents .
Its not really my fault at this point that you arent convinced; I think I've invested enough time in the topic for a weekday night.

One last time.
This is Bob, corroborating what Aurora said, in chapter 10 of Summer Knight, and giving Dresden a primer on what the Knights are, their relationship to the Queens, and how it affects everyone else.
I frowned, got out a pad of paper and a pencil, and started scratching things down. Sometimes that helped me sort things out. "Maybe. It's a murder investigation."
"Gotcha. Who's the corpse?"
"Artist. Ronald Reuel."
Bob's eyelights burned down to twin points. "Ah. Who is asking you to find the killer?"
"We don't know he was killed. Cops say it was an accident."
"But you think differently."
I shook my head. "I don't know a thing about it, but Mab says he was killed. She wants me to find the killer and prove that it wasn't her."
Bob fell into a shocked silence nearly a minute long. My pen scratched on the paper until Bob blurted, "Mab? The Mab, Harry?"
"Yeah."
"Queen of Air and Darkness? That Mab?"
"Yeah," I said, impatient.
"And she's your client?"
"Yes, Bob."
"Here's where I ask why don't you spend your time doing something safer and more boring. Like maybe administering suppositories to rabid gorillas."
"I live for challenge," I said.
"Or you don't, as the case may be," Bob said brightly. "Harry, if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times. You don't get tangled up with the Sidhe. It's always more complicated than you thought it would be."
"Thanks for the advice, skull boy. It wasn't like I had a choice. Lea sold her my debt."
"Then you should have traded her something for your freedom," Bob said. "You know, stolen an extra baby or something and given it to her—"
"Stolen a baby? I'm in enough trouble already."
"Well, if you weren't such a Goody Two-shoes all the time …"
I pushed at the bridge of my nose with my thumb. This was going to be one of those conversations that gave me a headache, I could tell already. "Look, Bob, can we stick to the subject, please? Time is important, so let's get to work. I need to know why Reuel would have been knocked off."
"Gee whiz, Harry," Bob said. "Maybe because he was the Summer Knight?"

My pencil fell out of my fingers and rolled on the table. "Whoa," I said. "Are you sure?"
"What do you think?" Bob replied, somehow putting a sneer into the words.
"Uh," I said. "This means trouble. It means …"
"It means that things with the Sidhe are more complicated than you thought. Gee, if only someone had warned you at some point not to be an idiot and go making deals."
I gave the skull a sour look and recovered my pencil. "How much trouble am I in?"
"A lot," Bob said. "The Knights are entrusted with power by the Sidhe Courts. They're tough."

"I don't know much about them," I confessed. "They're some kind of representative of the faeries, right?"
"Don't call them that to their faces, Harry. They don't like it any more than you'd like being called an ape."
"Just tell me what I'm dealing with."
Bob's eyelights narrowed until they almost went out, then brightened again after a moment, as the skull began to speak. "A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."
"Meaning?"
"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."
I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for—"
"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."

"I guess it was too good to be true. But my point is that if Reuel was the Summer Knight, Mab couldn't have killed him. Right? So why should she be under suspicion?"
"Because she could have done it indirectly. And Harry, odds are the Sidhe don't really care about Reuel's murder. Knights come and go like paper cups. I'd guess that they were upset about something else. The only thing they really care about."
"Power," I guessed.

"See, you can use your brain when you want to."
I shook my head. "Mab said something had been taken, and that I'd know what it was," I muttered. "I guess that's it. How much power are we talking about?"
"A Knight of the Sidhe is no pushover, Harry," Bob said, his tone earnest.
"So we're talking about a lot of magic going AWOL. Grand theft mojo." I drummed my pen on the table. "Where does the power come from originally?"
"The Queens."

I frowned. "Tell me if I'm off track here. If it comes from the Queens, it's a part of them, right? If a Knight dies, the power should snap back to the Queen like it was on a rubber band."
"Exactly."
"But this time it didn't. So the Summer Queen is missing a load of power. She's been weakened."
"If everything you've told me is true, yes," Bob said.

"There's no more balance between Summer and Winter. Hell, that could explain the toads. That's a serious play of forces, isn't it?"
Bob rolled his eyelights. "The turning of the seasons? Duh, Harry. The Sidhe are closer to the mortal world than any other beings of the Nevernever. Summer's had a slight edge for a while now, but it looks like they've lost it."

"And here I thought global warming was due to cow farts." I shook my head. "So, Titania loses a bunch of juice, and naturally suspicion falls on her archenemy, Mab."
"Yeah. It is kind of an archenemy-ish thing to do, you have to admit."
"I guess." I frowned down at my notes. "Bob, what happens if this imbalance between the Courts continues?"
"Bad things," Bob said. "It will mess around with weather patterns, cause aberrant behavior in plants and animals, and sooner or later the Sidhe Courts will go to war with one another."
"Why?"
"Because, Harry. When the balance is destroyed, the only thing the Queens can do is to blow everything to flinders and let it settle out into a natural distribution again."

"What does that mean to me?" I asked.
"Depends on who has the edge when everything is settled," Bob said. "A war could start the next ice age, or set off an era of rampant growth."
"That last one doesn't sound so bad."

"No. Not if you're an Ebola virus. You'll have lots of friends."
"Oh. Bad, then."
"Yeah," Bob said. "Keep in mind that this is theory, though. I've never seen it happen. I haven't existed that long. But it's something the Queens will want to avoid if they can."
"Which explains Mab's interest in this, if she didn't do it."
"Even if she did," Bob corrected me. "Did she ever actually tell you she was innocent?"
I mulled it over for a moment. "No," I said finally. "She twisted things around a lot."
"So it's possible that she did do it. Or had it done, at any rate."
"Right," I said. "So to find out if it was one of the Queens, we'd need to find her hitter. How tough would it be to kill one of these Knights?"
"A flight of stairs wouldn't do it. A couple of flights of stairs wouldn't do it. Maybe if he went on an elevator ride with you—"

"Very funny." I frowned, drumming my pen on the table. "So it would have taken that little something extra to take out Reuel. Who could manage it?"
"Regular folks could do it. But they wouldn't be able to do it without burning buildings and smoking craters and so on. To kill him so that it looked like an accident? Maybe another Knight could. Among the Sidhe, it was either the Winter Knight or one of the Queens."
"Could a wizard do it?"
"That goes without saying. But you'd have to be a pretty brawny wizard, have plenty of preparation and a good channel to him. Even then, smoking craters would be easier than an accident."
"The wizards have all been in duck-and-cover mode lately. And there are too many of them to make a practical suspect pool. Let's assume that it was probably internal faerie stuff. That cuts it down to three suspects."
"Three?"
"The three people who could have managed it. Summer Queen, Winter Queen, Winter Knight. One, two, three."
"Harry, I said it could have been one of the Queens."
I blinked up at the skull. "There are more than two?"
"Yeah, technically there are three."
"Three?"
"In each Court."
"Three Queens in each Court? Six?" That's just silly."
"Not if you think about it. Each Court has three Queens: The Queen Who Was, the Queen Who Is, and the Queen Who Is to Come."
"Great. Which one does the Knight work for?"

"All of them. It's kind of a group thing. He has different duties to each Queen."
I felt the headache start at the base of my neck and creep toward the crown of my head. "Okay, Bob. I need to know about these Queens."
"Which ones? The ones Who Are, Who Were, or Who Are to Come?"
I stared at the skull for a second, while the headache settled comfortably in. "There's got to be a simpler parlance than that."
"That's so typical. You won't steal a baby, but you're too lazy to conjugate."
"Hey," I said, "my sex life has nothing to do with—"
"Conjugate, Harry. Conju—oh, why do I even bother? The Queen is just the Queen. Queen Titania, Queen Mab. The Queen Who Was is called the Mother. The Queen Who Is to Come is known as the Lady. Right now, the Winter Lady is Maeve. The Summer Lady is Aurora."
Missing power from a Knight Mantle has literally global consequences.
You dont give that much power and discretion to a bully-boy.

Especially since the Knight is one of the few people who can kill a Queen.


No bounty? The red court tried to buy Harry on eBay. That doesn't suggest they're uncomfortable with the topic. They already buy and sell people regularly anyway.
It wasnt a bounty.
Possibly in part because the last time someone tried to go on about "Im gonna kill that bitchass" the White Council delivered an orbital kill projectile to their entire estate.

Madrigal Raith was explicitly being a freelance opportunist.
If he was working on a bounty, Dresden would have woken up in antimagic handcuffs on a private plane to Mexico. Or he'd have just sent his head. Thats how bounties work.

Instead he organized an auction on Ebay to which he sent invites to everyone he thought might be interested; he even sent an invite to the White Council to pay a ransom.

Literally the only time there has been a bounty we've seen was when Morgan was on the run.
That time, the White Council had an actual operations room accepting tips.
We see Madeline mention that she phoned one in.


You know what I meant.
There are plenty of dangerous artifacts out there, and our buyers would be the people who have most of them already. Ancient Sorcery is a very dangerous tool, but the players you're talking about have plenty of ways to mess with this level of power.

We should be cautious, but not waste our abilities
1) There do not appear to be plenty of dangerous artifacts of this weight.
At least not in base Dresden Files; this is a crossover, so that might not hold true.

In the Dresden Files, there's the thirty Coins, the three Swords, the Blackstaff/Mother Winter's walking stick, the five or six artifacts from Christ's death and crucifixion, the Stone Table, Demonreach, Gungnir and the Eye of Balor.

In the crafting system that is in play, Splendors are allegedly congealed vestiges of the Age of Legends.
Its not really something other splats(well, maybe Lash) are able to make.
Even Neverborn cant make them.


2)They dont.
Nicodemus has regularly relied on attempting to steal what artifacts exist in order to get the magical weight for a lot of his shit.
First it was the (counterfeit) Shroud of Turin, then it was the Holy Grail.

The Denarians have lacked the ability to make things of this weight in canon.
As far as I can tell(note, I havent ) akuma from Kindred of the East cant either.

In Holden's crafting document, the Neverborn Malfeans have a few Splendors, but they are all inherited from dead Exalts of yesteryear. They cant make Splendors either. If you're working on Holden's system, its gonna be a lot easier to duplicate Arcana and Prodigies in mortal and magic crafting than a Splendor.


3) Note that Im not saying never hand any out. I am voting for the Lily option here after all.
I am however asserting that any plan that involves "hey lets make set up a front shop and advertise splendor making at costs" Is almost certainly dipping into Bad Plan territory.



Uju I think you may be looking too much into Slate. From everything I can tell about him he was a two-bit leg breaker for the negligent Lady of winter. Drug addict and rapist of course he knows how to keep his mouth shut and that's pretty much all the secrecy he really needs for his plans cuz he just goes around killing people with super strength that he gets from the mantle so all he needs to do is be moderately stealthy know how to keep his mouth shut and do what he already does hurt and kill people for his amusement. Nothing is about his plans require him to be particularly clever only to be clever enough.
I dont believe so. I will try and run things down in detail

1) He did not serve Maeve. He served ALL the Winter Queens. I quote:
"Harry, I said it could have been one of the Queens."
I blinked up at the skull. "There are more than two?"
"Yeah, technically there are three."
"Three?"
"In each Court."
"Three Queens in each Court? Six?" That's just silly."
"Not if you think about it. Each Court has three Queens: The Queen Who Was, the Queen Who Is, and the Queen Who Is to Come."
"Great. Which one does the Knight work for?"
"All of them. It's kind of a group thing. He has different duties to each Queen."
I felt the headache start at the base of my neck and creep toward the crown of my head. "Okay, Bob. I need to know about these Queens."
"Which ones? The ones Who Are, Who Were, or Who Are to Come?"
I stared at the skull for a second, while the headache settled comfortably in. "There's got to be a simpler parlance than that."
"That's so typical. You won't steal a baby, but you're too lazy to conjugate."
"Hey," I said, "my sex life has nothing to do with—"
"Conjugate, Harry. Conju—oh, why do I even bother? The Queen is just the Queen. Queen Titania, Queen Mab. The Queen Who Was is called the Mother. The Queen Who Is to Come is known as the Lady. Right now, the Winter Lady is Maeve. The Summer Lady is Aurora."

2) Yes he was definitely a drug user; we see Maeve use drugs, I think heroin, to sedate him after pissing him off.
How much that actually had a longterm effect on him is unknown, because the Mantle gives superhuman performance. For all we know he was burning it off without longterm effect.

Possibly a rapist as well; we have had insinuations, but no straight accusation from any alleged victim.


3) Knights are not two-bit legbreakers, they are stewards of a significant portion of Fae Court power.
Strategic weapons in their own right, whose disposition can trigger wars.
Once again, Bob schooling Dresden:
Bob's eyelights narrowed until they almost went out, then brightened again after a moment, as the skull began to speak. "A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."
"Meaning?"
"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."
I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for—"
"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."

"I guess it was too good to be true. But my point is that if Reuel was the Summer Knight, Mab couldn't have killed him. Right? So why should she be under suspicion?"
"Because she could have done it indirectly. And Harry, odds are the Sidhe don't really care about Reuel's murder. Knights come and go like paper cups. I'd guess that they were upset about something else. The only thing they really care about."
"Power," I guessed.
"See, you can use your brain when you want to."
I shook my head. "Mab said something had been taken, and that I'd know what it was," I muttered. "I guess that's it. How much power are we talking about?"
"A Knight of the Sidhe is no pushover, Harry," Bob said, his tone earnest.
"So we're talking about a lot of magic going AWOL. Grand theft mojo." I drummed my pen on the table. "Where does the power come from originally?"
"The Queens."
I frowned. "Tell me if I'm off track here. If it comes from the Queens, it's a part of them, right? If a Knight dies, the power should snap back to the Queen like it was on a rubber band."
"Exactly."
"But this time it didn't. So the Summer Queen is missing a load of power. She's been weakened."
"If everything you've told me is true, yes," Bob said.
"There's no more balance between Summer and Winter. Hell, that could explain the toads. That's a serious play of forces, isn't it?"
Bob rolled his eyelights. "The turning of the seasons? Duh, Harry. The Sidhe are closer to the mortal world than any other beings of the Nevernever. Summer's had a slight edge for a while now, but it looks like they've lost it."

"And here I thought global warming was due to cow farts." I shook my head. "So, Titania loses a bunch of juice, and naturally suspicion falls on her archenemy, Mab."
"Yeah. It is kind of an archenemy-ish thing to do, you have to admit."
"I guess." I frowned down at my notes. "Bob, what happens if this imbalance between the Courts continues?"
"Bad things," Bob said. "It will mess around with weather patterns, cause aberrant behavior in plants and animals, and sooner or later the Sidhe Courts will go to war with one another."

"Why?"
"Because, Harry. When the balance is destroyed, the only thing the Queens can do is to blow everything to flinders and let it settle out into a natural distribution again."
"What does that mean to me?" I asked.
"Depends on who has the edge when everything is settled," Bob said. "A war could start the next ice age, or set off an era of rampant growth."
"That last one doesn't sound so bad."
"No. Not if you're an Ebola virus. You'll have lots of friends."
"Oh. Bad, then."
"Yeah," Bob said. "Keep in mind that this is theory, though. I've never seen it happen. I haven't existed that long. But it's something the Queens will want to avoid if they can."
The power that a Knight wields is serious business, and has grander implications for the balance of power in both the supernatural world and the mortal world.
You dont give that much mojo to Nelson from the Simpsons.

And I will point out that Slate fooled both Maeve and Mab.
And regardless of what we think about Maeve, Mab knows her shit; you need to be pretty stellar at intrigue to pull the wool over her eyes.


4)We see Lloyd Slate four times in canon:
At Maeve's ball in the first half of Summer Knight. At the climactic battle at the end of Summer Knight. When Dresden comes to rescue Molly in Arctis Tor during Proven Guilty. When Dresden cuts his throat in Changes.

Each time its pretty brief. Everything else we know about him is second or thirdhand knowledge.
For each time we have people tell us that he was cruel, and an asshole, we have people like Mab's other daughter Sarissa tell us that he wasnt that way in the beginning.


5) At the beginning of this quest, you'll notice that the QM offered us the opportunity to acquire him as an asset.
I voted against it, because I didnt think we wanted Winter as Enemy 4 at the time.
Arc 0 Post 6 said:
"It will piss off Mab, she is..."
You do not turn to look at him, eyes still on the tortured prisoner. "The mistress of this place, the liege of the Scarecrow."
What do you do?

[] Fuck Queen Mab and all her kind (Enemy Winter Court increases by ●●●)
-[] Kill the man as he asks (+3 frebie points to spend; the Mantle returns to Mab's keeping as it cannot bond to you)
-[] Free him (If he survives gain ally Loyd Slate; the Rogue Winter Knight ●●●)
[] As much as you hate to leave anyone like this, listen to Harry and run
[] Write in



***​
Administrative Vote: Which extra key ability do you drop:

[] Write in

OOC: So about that collecting of evil spirits and Creatures of Darkness that Infernals do so well... here's a Winter Knight on sale because Mab was careless. And yes you are strong enough to just grab him and run also the excellency is still running which means you would be supernaturally competent in persuading Dresden to rescue Slade.
It was on the table.
Still is on the table, if we choose to go for it and pay for it.
 
[X] Cut the connection and leave well enough lone. Any information their IT department may be able to get about the infiltration is likely to be too weird to make heads or tails of
 
Missing power from a Knight Mantle has literally global consequences.
You dont give that much power and discretion to a bully-boy.
Nothing in the quote actually quantifies the amount of power the knight has. We know that they are tough, we know that their power comes from the queens. We know that this power missing weakens the queens who gave it out (I am fairly sure later books disprove this, but ok). There's no indication that it's a lot of power. We don't know how precise the balance between Winter and Summer is. Given that we later learn that Winter and Summer mothers are two faces of the same being, or are mantling the same mantle collectively, a lot of this early lore is of questionable deeper validity - the balance is most likely self-correcting through the Mothers' most powerful mantle:
"Do you mind if I ask you a question while we walk?" Mother Summer asked.

"Not at all, ma'am," I said.

"What do you suppose will happen to you if you do not heed Mab's command?"

"Command?" I asked.

"Don't be coy, child," Mother Summer sniffed. "What my counterpart knows, I know. Mab commanded you to slay Maeve. What do you think will happen if you disobey her?"

"In the spirit of balanced scales," I said, "would it be all right if I asked you a question, ma'am?"

"I welcome the question. I make no promises as to the answer."

I nodded. "Who are you, really?"

Mother Summer stopped in her tracks and turned to look at me. Her eyebrows slowly lifted. "That is a very significant question."

"I know," I said. "Blame it on Halloween."

"Why should I do that?"

I shrugged, and we began walking again. "It's just got me thinking: masks. I know of one figure from ancient tales who is alive and well and incognito. Why shouldn't there be more?"

Mother Summer inclined her head, more a gesture of acknowledgment or admission than agreement. "Things change," she said. "Immortals deal poorly with change. But it comes to everyone."

"I called Mother Winter by the names Athropos and Skuld because they seemed to fit her," I said. "I mean, she likes her sharp implements, apparently."

Mother Summer's smile appeared for a moment, dazzling me, and then was gone again. "It was not an imbecilic guess," she said. "And, yes, she has been known by such names before. But you've only guessed the name of one of her masks—not our most powerful name."

"Our?" I said. "Wait. I'm confused."

"I know," she said. "Here we are."
 
So? How does this relate to Molly's morality? My point is that your initial objection, which, to my understanding was "Molly wouldn't just use people as crafting materials", isn't correct - there is a logical framework, namely a wanted board with splendor bounty payments, where Molly would.

We also don't know if there is White Council Most Wanted list or not.
Its the difference between claiming the organs of someone who died in a motorcycle accident.
And going out to shoot people so you can harvest their organs. And advertising that other people go hunt for organs for you. Molly sure as fuck is smart enough to be aware of the concept of unintended consequences in general and the Cobra Effect in particular.

There is no White Council Most Wanted list.
Dresden was a Warden for more than five years. If there was one, it would have come up. When he met Grevane and Corpsetaker, there was no BOLO out for either of them; he didnt know who they were by name or reputation.

Thats not how the Council works. Kemmler appears to have been an outlier.

Citations please. If we go by the rules, in order to modify a splendor, you completely unmake it, and then make it from scratch using the power present:
I find this idea a bit strange myself, yes, but still, this is how it's supposed to be done. But even barring that, no, you are inventing the problem wholecloth, again. At the very least I would assume that anyone capable of modifying a splendor would need to have access to Ancient Sorcery. And that's likely a very exclusive list, and not a matter of power.
1) The rules appear to be talking mechanics. Hence it says "Element points".

2)Citation:
See the Infernal Exaltation itself which got altered by the Yozi.
See the Abyssal Exaltation, which got altered by the Neverborn.
See the fact that Yama Kings can modify Exalts in ExWoD, even though they cant make Exaltations.


No, Eldest Ankou is explicitly a Winter Court mantle due to the magical oaths Arawn made, which he personally, but not the mantle, slipped through via Kemmler's fuckery. If it wasn't, Mab's plan to revenge herself upon Arawn by transferring the mantle to Lydia and thus obtaining control over her wouldn't work.

Even if it isn't, that wasn't my point. My point was that in a number of cases, a fae court mantle can inflict typical fae weaknesses on previously mortal beings, like Maeve, and canon Molly.
No, you're wrong.
Its a Mantle, an inheritable god-thing thats in vassalage to Mab and Winter due to the magical oaths that were sworn.
It is not, however, a Winter Court Mantle.

The Winter Court Mantles are intrinsic parts of the power of the Winter Court, and part of the balance between Summer and Winter. They go missing, Bad Things Happen.
The entire plot of Summer Knight was about this.

The difference between the two (a Mantle sworn to Winter vs a Winter Court Mantle)?

If we somehow got the oaths that bind that Mantle to Winter rescinded, there is no net change in the intrinsic balance between the Courts. If we snipped the Winter Knight Mantle off of Winter somehow, the power balance changes, there's a war, with significant longterm climate change consequences in the aftermath.


This is not the only example.

Talvi Inverno is a Finnish god/demigod of strife who is sworn to Winter in the aftermath of the First and Second World Wars, and resident in Chicago; we see him in the novella The Law. He got kicked out of his home pantheon by his mother after playing footsie with Kemmler, and took refuge in Winter.

His fealty to Winter has not actually affected the power balance between Summer and Winter, because he isnt an intrinsic part of Winter's power, he's just sworn to it.

===
Some Mantles, maybe. Not all of them.
And certainly not this one.
Furthermore, do note that not all Mantles are Fae for that matter. At least according to Butcher


He was relevant when Molly was a baby Exalt who had no allies besides what was defined in chargen.
Now he is less so.
Nothing suggests this that Im aware of.
We were never going to be leaning on him for muscle, any more than we lean on Harry for muscle.
So his value was always in other things.
 
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Nothing in the quote actually quantifies the amount of power the knight has. We know that they are tough, we know that their power comes from the queens. We know that this power missing weakens the queens who gave it out (I am fairly sure later books disprove this, but ok). There's no indication that it's a lot of power. We don't know how precise the balance between Winter and Summer is. Given that we later learn that Winter and Summer mothers are two faces of the same being, or are mantling the same mantle collectively, a lot of this early lore is of questionable deeper validity - the balance is most likely self-correcting through the Mothers' most powerful mantle:
Its enough power to go to war over.
The Queens explicitly risk geological changes when they do that, and Bob tells us that they'd rather avoid that sort of thing.
So when they do so anyway, like they did in Summer Knight....

Thats not true.
I provided the quotes. Its a lot of power. In case you missed it:
I frowned. "Tell me if I'm off track here. If it comes from the Queens, it's a part of them, right? If a Knight dies, the power should snap back to the Queen like it was on a rubber band."
"Exactly."
"But this time it didn't. So the Summer Queen is missing a load of power. She's been weakened."
"If everything you've told me is true, yes," Bob said.
"There's no more balance between Summer and Winter. Hell, that could explain the toads. That's a serious play of forces, isn't it?"
Bob rolled his eyelights. "The turning of the seasons? Duh, Harry. The Sidhe are closer to the mortal world than any other beings of the Nevernever. Summer's had a slight edge for a while now, but it looks like they've lost it."

"And here I thought global warming was due to cow farts." I shook my head. "So, Titania loses a bunch of juice, and naturally suspicion falls on her archenemy, Mab."
The balance is flexible enough that slight imbalances was apparently not considered significant.
Summer had a slight edge prior to the events of this book and that was not an issue.

But the loss of the Summer Mantle was a major enough change in power that both Bob and Aurora predicted it was going to trigger a war between the Courts.
And it did.


None of this early lore has been contradicted. I checked.
Nothing we know about the origins of the Mothers has contradicted anything from Summer Knight.
Or the idea that Summer and Winter maintain a balance between each other.

Even though Winter has way more military power, its committed at the Outer Gates.
 
Its the difference between claiming the organs of someone who died in a motorcycle accident.
And going out to shoot people so you can harvest their organs. And Molly sure as fuck is smart enough to be aware of the concept of unintended consequences in general and the Cobra Effect in particular.
1) You are again moving from "Molly will object on moral grounds". No, she won't.
2) Going out personally, and killing someone, and paying someone to kill someone are morally equal. Paying the killers in magical items that can be made only via said killings is a viable payment strategy that doesn't affect the killer's motivation. At most it makes them preserve the body.
3) You cannot cobra effect millennia old vampire elders, because it takes a thousand years to raise one. And because we wouldn't be posting bounties for random elders, but will have a list of targets.
There is no White Council Most Wanted list.
Dresden was a Warden for more than five years. If there was one, it would have come up. When he met Grevane and Corpsetaker, there was no BOLO out for either of them; he didnt know who they were by name or reputation.

Thats not how the Council works. Kemmler appears to have been an outlier.
And we are not the council. Also, no, we cannot 100% guarantee that there was no such most wanted list. Dresden was ignorant, and kept ignorant, of a lot of stuff, and didn't involve himself on-screen in a lot of stuff he reasonably should have been involved in.

See the Infernal Exaltation itself which got altered by the Yozi.
See the Abyssal Exaltation, which got altered by the Neverborn.
If you are concerned about Neverborn and Yozi, access to several more splendors wouldn't make them meaningfully more dangerous. They are an existential threat anyway.
See the fact that Yama Kings can modify Exalts in ExWoD, even though they cant make Exaltations.
Citation needed. Or are you talking about infernal pacts? If so, that's a very strange leap to extend this to "and now they suddenly can do equivalent of a 5 dot celestial charm that requires access rights to universal admin account".
Its enough power to go to war over.
You are conflating significance and importance with power. And that's a bad assumption to make.
Thats not true.
I provided the quotes. Its a lot of power. In case you missed it:
Early series Dresden makes an assumption that this the knight has a lot of power. Bob doesn't contradict him, but he doesn't necessarily support him either. Only saying that losing the mantle weakens the queen. How much the queen of summer is weakened by losing the mantle of summer knight is not necessarily proportional to how much power (personal magical power, not political significance) the knight himself has. Mother Summer says it well:
"Quite so," said Mother Summer. "And if you do heed Mab's command?"

"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if . . . the adversary? Can I say that safely?"

Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name, Sir Knight. Yes."

"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle. Two-thirds of the Winter Court will be under its influence." I looked back toward the cottage. "And that seems like it might be bad for Mother Winter."

"Indeed," said Mother Summer. "We are all vulnerable to those who are close to us."

"I never figured Granny Cleaver was close to anyone, ma'am."

The lines at the corners of Mother Summer's eyes deepened. "Oh, she . . . What is the phrase? She talks a good game. But in her own way, she cares."

We know that losing a summer / winter knight mantle would affect Summer / Winter queens. That does not mean that the power of the mantle itself is great. Certainly, from what we saw of Winter Knight Dresden, who is one of the most powerful younger generation wizards in the world (which the previous winter knight wasn't), it isn't all that much.
 
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 17, 2023 at 3:39 AM, finished with 85 posts and 19 votes.
 
So here is my plan for the next xp spending turn. Assuming we get 25ish xp.

[X] Plan Stats and Followers
--[X] Molly ??xp
-[X] Alertness 2: 5xp
-[X] Awareness 2: 5xp
-[X] Hear Prayer (•): 3xp
-[X] Inner Devils Unchained (••••): 12xp
--[X] Lydia ??xp
-[X] Mo Kung/Demon Fighter (•) (Training Discount): 2xp
-[X] Mentor 2: 4xp

Molly:
Get two dots in Alertness and Awareness. Keep in mind that due to Demon Guide, we have a -2 difficulty for Awareness. Alertness, we will have to just tank it. But this does bring us to an respectable amount and we should pass most tests this way.

Hear Prayer. Molly has a ton of followers in her inner world. This acts as a good way to interact with them without going into her inner world. It also may act as a introduction on how to make Akuma, once we get to that. It also makes taking Prayer Assessment and Fulfil prayer easier. Grant Prayer is basically VEE on a discount.
This is a matter of storytelling rather than solid systems, but protecting "blessed" actions from botches or granting free specialties are within reason, if some systems manifestations of this Charm are needed.
What this means is that if our followers pray for us to win a fight or a contest of skill, we are protected from blotching.

Inner Devils Unchained. We can use it to awaken people's po souls. This not only unlocks MA from Molly's world for them but also Demon Arts.

In addition, it also acts as a huge Chi reservoir and it does not have the normal downside of the Po soul trying to take over as per DragonParadox's statement.

So all in all it gives the person who has awakened it,

Black Wind which is basically Celerity but not as good as it does not add dice and what it does is generally not worth it in comparison except that you can spend one essence for multiple actions as opposed to spend essence for each action.
Demon Shintai = Devil form similar to Molly's shintai. No new health Bar and not as good as a stat boost but grants extra skills and new abilities.
Iron Mountain = Fortitude but again rather than add dice, it reduces soak difficulty. To 2. Yeah, then it adds sux if it would reduce it below 2. So arguably better than Fortitude.
Kiai, shouting to get buffs. Not a huge fan of this one tbh.

This is on top of whatever Martial Arts available from Molly's inner world.

So yeah, getting inner darkness is a must have and is looking to be a FUN charm to have. Because it opens up so many options for us to play with.

Lydia
So we introduce her the Mo Kung, more specifically, the Stamina booster. This increases her survivability by a LOT. She has a specific soak charm that grants her Staminax2 soak. Say she rolls well and has 8 stamina. This boosts her stamina to 8 + 16 dice. So upto 24 dice for soak.

The second is mentor 2. To put it simply, her dad is kind of a big shot with access to lore and other information. This makes him more active and more useful.
 
I'd love to get Night Swallows Secrets or the politness-based invisibility.

Both would quiten that worry about mortals acting against us that the thread sometimes has.
 
-[X] Inner Devils Unchained (••••): 12xp
I would switch this for 2 rounds of Ox Body and Source Code Compliance protocol as a comprehensive combat and general boost.
The second is mentor 2. To put it simply, her dad is kind of a big shot with access to lore and other information. This makes him more active and more useful.
I dislike buying (most) backgrounds via XP on general principles, but that's just my opinion
 
Yog, uju is talking about how the Demonic Patrons can give charms and Essence levels and crack open caste boundaries. Though that is a jump to assume they could make or gain the ability to alter Splendor through that it's not large one.
 
1) You are again moving from "Molly will object on moral grounds". No, she won't.
2) Going out personally, and killing someone, and paying someone to kill someone are morally equal. Paying the killers in magical items that can be made only via said killings is a viable payment strategy that doesn't affect the killer's motivation. At most it makes them preserve the body.
3) You cannot cobra effect millennia old vampire elders, because it takes a thousand years to raise one. And because we wouldn't be posting bounties for random elders, but will have a list of targets.
1) Yes she will.
She doesnt go out hunting people for reagents; she has picked up potential reagents in the process of doing other stuff.
Molly is not a DnD murderhobo.


2) No they arent.
Molly has thus far, picked up potential reagents as an incidental side effect of other stuff.
She does not hire people to kill other people because she wants to cut them up for crafting reagents.

Seriously, this is the Dresden Files.
You need to step back for a moment and think through how it sounds in this setting to say you want someone to go out and kill people for you as crafting reagents.


3) That isnt true.
Diablerie is very much a thing with Cainite vampires in WoD. Not sure about Kindred of the East; I think Yama Kings can improve your generation or reduce it, and that eating some shen might do so as well, but I cant recall without consulting the source book.

Furthermore, time manipulation is something thats both narratively associated with Fae, and something we've actually seen Maeve do in the NeverNever in Proven Guilty in order to trap Winter's forces long enough for Summer to act without interference.


And we are not the council. Also, no, we cannot 100% guarantee that there was no such most wanted list. Dresden was ignorant, and kept ignorant, of a lot of stuff, and didn't involve himself on-screen in a lot of stuff he reasonably should have been involved in.
There have been 17 books and counting.
At no point has it been mentioned that there is a most wanted list.
Not even when they were actively hunting Morgan.

There is no evidence such a thing exists.
If you are concerned about Neverborn and Yozi, access to several more splendors wouldn't make them meaningfully more dangerous. They are an existential threat anyway.
Yes it does. Because it improves how well they can equip their mortal agents.
Thats a pretty big deal in this setting, where the White God is explicitly a lot more on the ball than whoever is supposed to be running things in World of Darkness, and thus does not allow them to act directly.

Thankfully, the Yozi do not exist in this AU.
But the Neverborn do.


Citation needed. Or are you talking about infernal pacts? If so, that's a very strange leap to extend this to "and now they suddenly can do equivalent of a 5 dot celestial charm that requires access rights to universal admin account".
I quote:
ExWoD pg 241 said:
Here's a biggie: Can a mage screw with Exaltation? Answer: Yes, but.

Yes, but it's always vulgar. You're wrestling with the manifest will of gods from the dawn of time performing the single greatest miracle they ever managed. There's not a single paradigm out there, not even in the Wild West free-for-all that is the Spirit World, where that isn't breaking a shitload of rules.

Yes, but it's hard as fuck. If you're trying to injure or interfere with the Exaltation, assume that the Exaltation itself is fighting back like a wild steer, and has Arete 10 and a 10-dice resistance pool to do it with.

Trying to snare and mess with an Exaltation between incarnations takes a truckload of Prime and Spirit, along with some Entropy and/or Mind to trick its guidance systems, and that's probably the easiest way to mess with Exaltation.

Fiddling with a Terrestrial Exalted bloodline to goose its breed-true rate up or down takes Prime, Spirit, Entropy, and Life at minimum.

Trying to rip the Exaltation out of one of the Chosen takes Prime 5 and Spirit 5, and is guaranteed to kill a Dragon-Blooded target without some other kind of magick to keep her alive. Trying to destroy an Exaltation outright... well, never say never where magick is concerned, but if it was easy, nobody would have gone to the trouble of building the Black Vault. You'd need Prime 5, Spirit 5, and Entropy 5 to even start thinking about it. All of these shenanigans are considered godlike feats, and require 20+ successes to pull off, especially ripping an Exaltation out of its host or permanently damaging or destroying it. Even if you pull it off, there are likely to be unexpected complications, consequences, and side-effects.

In short, if you want to part a Solar and her Exaltation, the easiest way to do it by a country mile is to just kill her.
ExWoD pg 321 said:
Unfolding Soul Flower (10 points)
The Exalt's dread patron cracks open the potential of her Exaltation. She may choose an additional Aspect or Caste Charm list to favor. Infernals select a third Key Hell, while Liminals gain another Aspect Attribute from their original list of five choices. Alchemicals instead gain 10 experience points to spend on submodules for their Charms.

Sign: While using Charms from the profane Charm list, which resonate with the tainted Attribute, or which were upgraded with infernal submodules, the Infernal's body crawls with subtle, otherworldly flames.

Side Effect: The character's Essence is wounded for a month after gaining this Investment. Whenever she should regain Essence, she gains one point less than normal.
ExWoD pg321 said:
Power Unbound (3, 5, or 9 points)
The Exalt's dread patron unlocks the miracles inherent in her Essence. For three points, she gains a single one-dot Charm. For 5 points, she gains three dots of Charms. For 9 points, she gains 5 dots of Charms.


Sign: Charms obtained with this Investment always display some unnerving, hellish manifestation when used.
Side Effect: For the first month after gaining this Investment, the Exalt's anima roars into life whenever she spends even a single point of Essence.

Those are the words used verbatim.
The precedent has always been exceedingly clear; if even the Exaltation isnt supposed to be entirely inviolate in this setting, whats essentially artifice created by Exalted hands sure as hell isnt.
 
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Spamming shintai is not always a good idea.
The thing is we have only ever been injured by 3 hlvls. We have plenty of hlvls and if someone really pushes it, we can transform into Shintai.

I agree that it is not spamable but we do not need more hlvls at the moment. But my main want this turn is IDU so tbh any vote that has that has my approval vote.
 
The thing is we have only ever been injured by 3 hlvls. We have plenty of hlvls and if someone really pushes it, we can transform into Shintai.
To buttress Yog's point?
Shintai is not cheap to use the first time, and its difficulty increases with progressive uses.
And the fact that we've only had to use it once each story arc thus far wont necessarily hold true in Vegas.
Assuming we're going there.
 
1) Yes she will.
She doesnt go out hunting people for reagents; she has picked up potential reagents in the process of doing other stuff.
Molly is not a DnD murderhobo.
Again, you are switching back the Molly's motivation and means. The motivation is "destroy these monsters". The means is "provide incentive for fae / other potential customers to kill these monsters by making their bodies a valuable commodity".
3) That isnt true.
Diablerie is very much a thing with Cainite vampires in WoD. Not sure about Kindred of the East; I think Yama Kings can improve your generation or reduce it, and that eating some shen might do so as well, but I cant recall without consulting the source book.
Diablarie requires you to have access to someone to diablarize. That someone being an elder. If you have an access to an elder, you might as well sacrifice said elder.
Furthermore, time manipulation is something thats both narratively associated with Fae, and something we've actually seen Maeve do in the NeverNever in Proven Guilty in order to trap Winter's forces long enough for Summer to act without interference.
If they can do this, why aren't they doing this?
There have been 17 books and counting.
At no point has it been mentioned that there is a most wanted list.
Not even when they were actively hunting Morgan.

There is no evidence such a thing exists.
For a large part of these books Dresden was ostracized from the Council. The period in which he was both in good standing, and didn't have Lash in his head (which gave him incentive to avoid deep interactions with the Council) is relatively small in terms of how many books describe it.
Yes it does. Because it improves how well they can equip their mortal agents.
Thats a pretty big deal in this setting, where the White God is explicitly a lot more on the ball than whoever is supposed to be running things in World of Darkness, and thus does not allow them to act directly.

Thankfully, the Yozi do not exist in this AU.
But the Neverborn do.
I maintain that those that can screw with splendors are dangerous enough as it is that it doesn't really matter if they get their hands on some. Neverborn created Black Court. They can do plenty as is.
 
Personally I would say VEE is top priority, we have basically an infinite supply of people to that can make wishes that advance our goals. Not to mention just buffing people in the hell in general, to accelerate their development.
 
Personally I would say VEE is top priority, we have basically an infinite supply of people to that can make wishes that advance our goals. Not to mention just buffing people in the hell in general, to accelerate their development.
VEE is a HEAVILY limited and HEAVILY restricted charm that is way, WAY too expensive for what it actually does. 20xp for one wish per person? At 5 Essence? A wish that can be resisted?

Yeah.
To buttress Yog's point?
My point is that we have never been meaningfully threatened to the point of risking dying., So I do not see the point of buying a lot of ox body charms. Maybe 1 but not 2.
 
If it wasn't, Mab's plan to revenge herself upon Arawn by transferring the mantle to Lydia and thus obtaining control over her wouldn't work.
Also because acquiring a Winter mantle was the whole point of the deal from Arawn's perspective. He needed a new mantle to stay active on earth/alive.
I have spent time to track down and provide quotes from Summer Knight.
I have pointed out that Battle Grounds had the Knights acting as both field commanders and agents .
Field commanders and agents, as in telling people what to do and doing things the fey aren't allowed to. That doesn't make them magical powerhouses or require they know a lot about what's going on outside their orders.

Especially since how each knight goes about their role is different. Slate and Harry being a pretty obvious example of people recruited for different skill sets.

Also note your own quote suggesting that knights are disposable to them and easily replaced. That doesn't exactly imply they're super powerful on an individual level.

The power imbalance on a practical level seems to come down to one court not being able to act very effectively in the mortal world and whatever power is bound up in making the mantle in the first place.

Take our splendors for example, an entire red elder with all the abilities that implies even for a shit one, could go into fueling possession immunity.

That is an amazing ability, as long as possession is a major problem in your threat space. If you're fighting against a dozen mortals you'd probably prefer to have the vamp on staff though.

So it seems with the knights, the fey have to put down a chunk of power to meaningfully exploit mortal related loopholes. This is also why a wizard champion was so great; he could make use of the mantle from his side in ways the fey couldn't just make available from theirs, making him a more efficient servant.

Knights like Slate should be weaker in every parameter than Harry was. Including, incidentally, how difficult they are to manipulate.

You dont give that much power and discretion to a bully-boy.

Especially since the Knight is one of the few people who can kill a Queen.
Except they did exactly that, and had no plan to do anything about Slate at his most useless until he betrayed Mab.

The global repercussions seem to be more about the balance shifting due to capacity loss than immediate power concerns.

It wasnt a bounty.
Possibly in part because the last time someone tried to go on about "Im gonna kill that bitchass" the White Council delivered an orbital kill projectile to their entire estate.
The war has already started, I don't think this sort of risk is really a deterrent anymore.

My point wasn't that Madrigal was working a bounty, my point was that I don't think the human eating slavers who've demonstrated a willingness to buy people up to and including wizards would have a problem with using bounty hunters.

Hell, for quest purposes that's what Broken Seeker was.

1) There do not appear to be plenty of dangerous artifacts of this weight.
At least not in base Dresden Files; this is a crossover, so that might not hold true.

In the Dresden Files, there's the thirty Coins, the three Swords, the Blackstaff/Mother Winter's walking stick, the five or six artifacts from Christ's death and crucifixion, the Stone Table, Demonreach, Gungnir and the Eye of Balor.

In the crafting system that is in play, Splendors are allegedly congealed vestiges of the Age of Legends.
Its not really something other splats(well, maybe Lash) are able to make.
Even Neverborn cant make them.
Splendors are deep, but not wide. They don't stack up with the swords or the stone table outside of very narrow areas.

Nasty things could maybe be done with them, but we're not exactly going to be introducing new models of that tier of artifact on a whim.
 
Again, you are switching back the Molly's motivation and means. The motivation is "destroy these monsters". The means is "provide incentive for fae / other potential customers to kill these monsters by making their bodies a valuable commodity".
Again, this is not true.

Never mind the fact that you think contracting out a fucking war is not literally the recipe for Unintended Consequences.
Its literally cheaper for the people with the magical weight to capture vampire elders to farm vampires in the NeverNever than risk fights with the Red Court or Jade Court.

Diablarie requires you to have access to someone to diablarize. That someone being an elder. If you have an access to an elder, you might as well sacrifice said elder.
No it doesnt, actually.
You can diablerize other vampires just fine. It wont reduce your generation if they are your juniors, but it does apparently juice you up.

Furthermore, in the Dresdenverse, Elder status =/= Age.
Drusilla was a Master Black Court vampire at around one year of age. And WoD kuejin enlightenment is not necessarily linked to chronological age either.

If they can do this, why aren't they doing this?
What makes you think they dont? Dresden is not an omniscient observer; if shit is happening outside his purview, he wont know until it intersects his business.

Besides.
Where do you think those myths about people going to a Fae place and getting out a hundred years later, or having aged prematurely, come from?

In Proven Guilty, its literally a plot point.
Dresden et al went to Arctis Tor, and came back several hours later only to find at least 24 hours had passed in the real world.
And that absence was the excuse that was used to demote Murphy in canon.
For a large part of these books Dresden was ostracized from the Council. The period in which he was both in good standing, and didn't have Lash in his head (which gave him incentive to avoid deep interactions with the Council) is relatively small in terms of how many books describe it.
This is not true.

Dresden has been a member in good standing since the end of Storm Front, when the Doom of Damocles was lifted.
He has been involved in training the current set of Wardens since the disasters of Dead Beat. He's on personal speaking terms with three Senior Council members: his grandfather, Injun Joe and Rashid.

He doesnt spend a lot of time at Edinburgh. Thats not the same thing as ostracism.
I maintain that those that can screw with splendors are dangerous enough as it is that it doesn't really matter if they get their hands on some. Neverborn created Black Court. They can do plenty as is.
Yeah, I dont agree.
The more tools they have, the easier it is for them to apply what power they have.

The Neverborn were involved in creating the Black Court in this AU.
Thats all we know. We dont know what Drakul's involvement is here, but he invented them in canon.
The Black Court has largely been doing its own thing since anyway.


My point is that we have never been meaningfully threatened to the point of risking dying., So I do not see the point of buying a lot of ox body charms. Maybe 1 but not 2.
Fair enough.
I dont agree, but fair enough.
 
Inner Devils Unchained. We can use it to awaken people's po souls. This not only unlocks MA from Molly's world for them but also Demon Arts.
Why?

We're not even using all the power available to the minions we do have. Are we going to pay 12 xp for something we'll use on like 2 people for the next few arcs? Do we have a use for say a dozen mortals we woke up this way or would they end up "guarding" Last Station like the completely unequipped ghouls and vampires we've got hanging out down there?
 
Those are the words used verbatim.
The precedent has always been exceedingly clear; if even the Exaltation isnt supposed to be entirely inviolate in this setting, whats essentially artifice created by Exalted hands sure as hell isnt.
Didn't DP kill that thing with mages being able to screw with exaltations?

Mages from WoD are baby demiurges, DF wizards are not and nobody like that is really running around. That whole thing from Holden is just ridiculous, and its ridiculousness predicated on something that doesn't apply here.
 
Its literally cheaper for the people with the magical weight to capture vampire elders to farm vampires in the NeverNever than risk fights with the Red Court or Jade Court.
Not really, because, again, you are missing the point completely. We don't post bounties on "generic red elder". We post a list of Red Court most Wanted, with the reward being splendors.
What makes you think they dont? Dresden is not an omniscient observer; if shit is happening outside his purview, he wont know until it intersects his business.
Complete lack of evidence. if you are arguing that they are doing this, and want me to even entertain the idea, then you pretty much have to concede that there is White Council Most Wanted list, with bounties for dead or alive captures. We also have tangential evidence that this can't be done, as shown by Winter actually having to replenish their losses with child soldiers at normal rates.
In Proven Guilty, its literally a plot point.
Dresden et al went to Arctis Tor, and came back several hours later only to find at least 24 hours had passed in the real world.
And that absence was the excuse that was used to demote Murphy in canon.
There's a big difference in X6 or even X10 time dilation, occurring in the deepest Winter's parts, and X1000 time dilation.
 
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