Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Field commanders and agents, as in telling people what to do and doing things the fey aren't allowed to. That doesn't make them magical powerhouses or require they know a lot about what's going on outside their orders.

Especially since how each knight goes about their role is different. Slate and Harry being a pretty obvious example of people recruited for different skill sets.

Also note your own quote suggesting that knights are disposable to them and easily replaced. That doesn't exactly imply they're super powerful on an individual level.

The power imbalance on a practical level seems to come down to one court not being able to act very effectively in the mortal world and whatever power is bound up in making the mantle in the first place.

Take our splendors for example, an entire red elder with all the abilities that implies even for a shit one, could go into fueling possession immunity.

That is an amazing ability, as long as possession is a major problem in your threat space. If you're fighting against a dozen mortals you'd probably prefer to have the vamp on staff though.

So it seems with the knights, the fey have to put down a chunk of power to meaningfully exploit mortal related loopholes. This is also why a wizard champion was so great; he could make use of the mantle from his side in ways the fey couldn't just make available from theirs, making him a more efficient servant.

Knights like Slate should be weaker in every parameter than Harry was. Including, incidentally, how difficult they are to manipulate.
1)Repeated citations state otherwise.
When Fix, a changeling of no magical talent, suddenly has enough mojo to attempt beamspam against Dresden, who is canonically one of the 40 or 50 brawniest wizards in the setting? The well of power in the Mantle runs deep.


2)We dont know what Slate was recruited for, actually. Just what Dresden was recruited for.


3)No, you are misinterpreting that.
What it says is that Knights come and go like paper cups. Thats their lifespan. Because they are mortal, and have to be as a requirement of the job among the immortal Sidhe. Its not the same thing as saying they are disposable.


4)I dont buy that argument.
The statements we see from both Bob and Aurora imply its more than that. The Courts have no issue appointing mortal Emissaries to act for them, and they dont need any particular oomph to do so.


5) And yet, Dresden is the first wizard either Court has recruited as Knight that we know of since Mab and her sister came to power in their respective Courts. Elaine Mallory took refuge with Summer and was never tapped for the job.
And she is just the most recent we know of.

The fact that neither Court appears to prioritize recruiting mortal wizards, or sorcerers, or even mortal talents, appears to suggest that this particular hypothesis does not hold water in the setting.


6) We see Mab talking about what she's looking for at her first meeting with Harry.
Magical ability isnt one of them. When she mentioned possible replacements for Harry if he died, she mentioned his brother the Whampire, with very little magical ability.


Except they did exactly that, and had no plan to do anything about Slate at his most useless until he betrayed Mab.
The global repercussions seem to be more about the balance shifting due to capacity loss than immediate power concerns.
That is not true.

There is literally nothing anywhere that I can find that says that Slate was useless. Or bad at his job.
The only information we have is that he was pissed at Maeve.
He wasnt Dresden, but he was a perfectly serviceable Knight until he went rogue.


The war has already started, I don't think this sort of risk is really a deterrent anymore.

My point wasn't that Madrigal was working a bounty, my point was that I don't think the human eating slavers who've demonstrated a willingness to buy people up to and including wizards would have a problem with using bounty hunters.
Hell, for quest purposes that's what Broken Seeker was.
Kinda is.
Because the Red Court committed to staying out of Chicago after Dresden defeated Paolo Ortega in a public duel.
It was registered with the Accords. Publicly

Its hard to get people to do work for you if you have a reputation for faithlessness with your previous agreements.
They get nervous about getting paid, or being betrayed.
Thats why when the Reds broke the agreement, they sent their own hitters.


Splendors are deep, but not wide. They don't stack up with the swords or the stone table outside of very narrow areas.
Nasty things could maybe be done with them, but we're not exactly going to be introducing new models of that tier of artifact on a whim.
They dont have to stack up with those to vastly expand the ability of someone with one to wreak damage.
If a Neverborn or Yama King manages to, say, turn 3x 2-dot Splendors into a 5-dot?
Or to upgrade a 3-dot?

Something like Nicky's plot to start an epidemic in Chicago suddenly becomes a lot more plausible.
 
Not really, because, again, you are missing the point completely. We don't post bounties on "generic red elder". We post a list of Red Court most Wanted, with the reward being splendors.
No Im not.
Who precisely do you think has the resources to go into hostile territory to hunt vampire elders?
And how exactly do you think they are going to react to you trying to do to them what happend to the Black Court?

Hell, how exactly do you think the rest of the setting reacts to the idea that you make stuff by killing people, and are actively soliciting sacrifices?
In this setting, where Kemmler's depredations are within living memory?


Complete lack of evidence. if you are arguing that they are doing this, and want me to even entertain the idea, then you pretty much have to concede that there is White Council Most Wanted list, with bounties for dead or alive captures. We also have tangential evidence that this can't be done, as shown by Winter actually having to replenish their losses with child soldiers at normal rates.
I keep pointing at Maeve doing it onscreen. And you keep ignoring it.
Do I need to dig up the precise citations?
There's a big difference in X6 or even X10 time dilation, occurring in the deepest Winter's parts, and X1000 time dilation.
Okay. Citation:
Proven Guilty chapter 40 said:
Fix stared at me as if I'd gone insane. "You poured Summer fire into Winter's wellspring?"
"I can't sleep well any night I haven't inflicted a little property damage," I said gravely. "Anyway, I did that, and all hell broke loose. My god-mother told me that anybody who was anybody in Winter had gotten their vengeance on and was coming to kill me."
"My God," Fix breathed. "That would do it all right. Where did you get Summer fire to…" His voice trailed off and he stared at Lily.
The Summer Lady looked up, her weary smile gorgeous. "I only provided a minor comfort and guide in order to repay my debt to the lady Charity," she murmured, a small smile on her lips. "I had no way to know that the wizard would steal that power for his own use." She drew in a deep breath and said, "Help me up. We must go."
Fix did so. "Go where?"
I said, "All of those Winter forces are now at the heart of their own realm. Which means that they aren't on the borders of Summer waiting to attack. Which means that Summer has forces that can be spared to assist the Council," I said quietly.
"But it only took them a few minutes to show up," Murphy pointed out. "Couldn't they just run back and be there a few minutes from now?"
"No, Murph," I said. "They planned for that. This whole raid was a setup from the get go." I jerked my head at Lily. "Wasn't it."
"That is one way to describe it," Lily said quietly. "I would not, myself, interpret it that way. I had no part in bringing the fetches here-but their presence and their capture of Lady Charity's daughter presented us with an opportunity to temporarily neutralize the presence of Mab's forces upon our borders."
"We," I murmured. "Maeve is working with you. That was why she showed up at McAnally's so quickly."
"Even so," Lily said, bowing her head at me in a nod of what looked like respect.
Fix blinked at Lily. "You're working with Maeve?"
"She couldn't have altered the flow of time at the heart of Winter," I said quietly. "Only one of the Winter Queens could do that."
Fix blinked at Lily as if I hadn't spoken. "Maeve's working with you?"
Lily nodded. "Like us, she fears Mab's recent madness." She turned back to me. "I provided you with power enough to threaten the wellspring, in the hope that you would draw some portion of Winter back into its own demesnes. Once that was done, Maeve altered the passage of time relative to the mortal realms."
I arched an eyebrow. "How long have we been gone?"
"It is nearly sunrise of the day after you departed," she replied. "Though the passage of time was only altered in the last few moments of your escape.
Maeve will not be able to hold it for long, but it will give us time enough to act."
"What if I hadn't realized it in time?" I asked her. "What if I hadn't used your fire?"
She smiled at me, a little sad. "You would be dead, I suppose."

I glared at her. "And my friends with me."
"Even so," she said. "Please understand. The compulsion my Queen has laid upon me permitted me few options. I could not make explanation of what I had in mind. Nor could I simply stand by and do nothing while the Council was in such desperate need."
"But now you can tell me all about it?"
"Now we are discussing history," she said. She inclined her head to me. Then to Charity. "I am glad, Lady, to see your daughter returned to you."
Charity looked up at her long enough to give her a swift smile and a nod of thanks. Then she went back to holding her daughter.
"Lily," I said.
She arched a brow, waiting.
She'd manipulated me, turned me into a weapon to use against Mab. She hadn't exactly lied to me, but she had taken an awful gamble with my life. Worse, she'd done it with the lives of four of my friends. She had good intentions all the way down the line, I suppose. And she had faced limitations that my instincts told me I still did not fully appreciate or understand. But she hadn't dealt with me head-on, open and honest.
Proven Guilty chapter 41 said:
I watched the reunion from a chair across the room, and dozed sitting up until Forthill returned with food. There weren't chairs enough for everyone, and Charity wound up sitting on the floor with her back to the wall, chomping down sandwiches while her children all tried to remain within touching distance.
I stuffed my face shamelessly. The use of magic, the excitement, and that final uphill hike through the cold had left my stomach on the verge of implosion. "Survival food," I muttered. "Nothing like it."
Murphy, leaning against the wall beside me, nodded. "Damn right." She wiped at her mouth and looked at her watch. She tucked the last of her sandwich between her lips, and then started resetting the watch while she chewed.
"Gone almost exactly twenty-four hours. So we did some kind of time travel?" she asked.
"Oh, God no," I said. "That's on the list of Things One Does Not Do. It's one of the seven Laws of Magic."
"Maybe," she said. "But however it happened, a whole day just went poof. That's time travel."
"People are doing that kind of time travel all the time," I said. "We just pulled into the passing lane for a while."
She finished setting the watch and grimaced. "All the same."
I frowned at her. "You okay?"
She looked up at the children and their mother. "I'm going to have one hell of a time explaining where I've been for the past twenty-four hours. It isn't as though I can tell my boss that I went time traveling."
"Yeah, he'd never buy it. Tell him you invaded Faerieland to rescue a young woman from a monster-infested castle."
"Of course," she said. "Why didn't I think of that?"
I grunted. "Is it going to make trouble for you?"
She frowned for a moment and then said, "Intradepartmental discipline, probably. They couldn't get me for anything criminal, so no jail."
I blinked. "Jail?"
"I was in charge of things, remember?" Murphy reminded me. "I was pushing the line by laying that aside and coming to help you. Throw in that extra day and…" She shrugged.
"Hell's bells," I sighed. "I hadn't realized."

She shrugged a shoulder.
"How bad is it going to be?" I asked.
She frowned. "Depends on a lot of things. Mostly what Greene and Rick have to say, and how they say it. What other cops who were there have to say. A couple of those guys are major assholes. They'd be glad to make trouble for me."
"Like Rudolph," I said.
"Like Rudolph."
I put on my Bronx accent. "You want I should whack 'em for ya?"
She gave me a quick, ghostly smile. "Better let me sleep on that one."
I nodded. "But seriously. If there's anything I can do…"
"Just keep your head down for a while. You aren't exactly well loved all over the department. There are some people who resent that I keep hiring you, and that they can't tell me to stop because the cases you're on have about a ninety percent likelihood of resolution."
"My effectiveness is irrelevant? I thought cops had to have a degree or something, these days."
She snorted. "I love my job," she said. "But sometimes it feels like it has an unnecessarily high moron factor."
I nodded agreement. "What are they going to do?"
"This will be my first official fuckup," she said. "If I handle it correctly, I don't think they'll fire me."
Few moments extended to more than a day.
Thats not x10 time dilation. Thats not even x10,000 time dilation.
Its more.
 
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The Ability to allow people to use demon arts with little to no downsides is a significant power.

As in companion levels of power. This would catapult Molly's brother and Olivia as potential circle members. Keep in mind that the Qaios allow mortals to contend with the Kindred of the East. Maybe not on an equal basis but as a power on to their own.

Add safe to use demon arts into that mix and you have a significant power. Both as individuals and as groups. Mook spam is a viable tactic and the ability to spam Mooks who are a mix of two splats or at least half of one is a significant ability.

Even otherwise, it opens up soul manipulation to Molly and which I doubt you would care for it, I want to unlock the ability to make Investudes like the Yama Kings and the rest do.
 
No Im not.
Who precisely do you think has the resources to go into hostile territory to hunt vampire elders?
And how exactly do you think they are going to react to you trying to do to them what happend to the Black Court?
Winter and Summer courts, certain Wildfae. Certain members of White Council, Jade Court, White Court. And it also means that the Paths become pretty much barred to Red Court, as they could expect an ambush there at all times.
And how exactly do you think they are going to react to you trying to do to them what happend to the Black Court?
Badly, if only they weren't in an existential war with White Council already, and counted us as a hostile too. They already are hiring godling assassins to go after us and ours (see Broken Seeker). And that was before we offed Arianna. If you are worried about escalation, you should have worried earlier.
Hell, how exactly do you think the rest of the setting reacts to the idea that you make stuff by killing people, and are actively soliciting sacrifices?
In this setting, where Kemmler's depredations are within living memory?
Pretty chill, as it is, I would expect. Sacrificial magic is not Kemmler's exclusive domain, it's pretty much everyone's. And splendors aren't necromancy, and it's easy to check and feel that they aren't necromancy.
Few moments extended to more than a day.
Thats not x10 time dilation. Thats not even x10,000 time dilation.
Its more.
And yet, if they could do this on anything approaching large scale, like you suggest for some manner of hypothetical vampire farming operations (which, again, would be completely pointless, as we are under no obligation to accept any given vampire elder given to us), their approach to recruiting would make zero sense. Note that we never see this being done to reduce recovery or training times.
 
The Ability to allow people to use demon arts with little to no downsides is a significant power.
There are downsides, and non-insignificant ones too: Creature of Darkness status, and whatever mutations and/or derangements are inflicted by fomorification, which we explicitely can't control or predict.
 
There are downsides, and non-insignificant ones too: Creature of Darkness status, and whatever mutations and/or derangements are inflicted by fomorification, which we explicitely can't control or predict.
Hmm.... @DragonParadox did rule on this.
You could make people into beings capable of learning the Demon Arts of the Wan Kuei by awakening their Po with the Inner Devils charm, others would open up other upgrade paths. The charms for making minions are more than just the raw mechanics of melding spiritual power to mortal flesh, they are like Molly's own transformations the path to making something new and something old, something of the world transmuted by the alien, achingly familiar power of the Exaltation
So, this is the relevant quote.

It does specifically call out that Inner Devils unlocks the Po and the other Charms unlock other stuff.
 
There are downsides, and non-insignificant ones too: Creature of Darkness status, and whatever mutations and/or derangements are inflicted by fomorification, which we explicitely can't control or predict.
Of course downsides for them are upsides for us because it encourages them to work for us.
 
More on the Fomori charm.
While the process is a chaotic and dangerous it is not malicious unless you choose to make it so you can converse with the demons and tell them that this is meant to be a rite of empowerment, or in the case of making your Hell Realm define how spirit and mortal flesh will merge inside your world soul.
You do not have to make monsters, though any melding of flesh and spirit you bring about will come out a little alien. But hey that's a small price to pay for superpowers right?
OOC: This has been the rather long winded way of saying not to be scared of making fomori. Normally I prefer to cover things like this when they come up organically in the story but with this I felt I had to do this now or you guys might just not take the charms.
So here are further quotes.

IF they do become Fomori, then they do get a bit alien but very much functional, especially since we have our own hell realm and can now define how flesh and spirit merges.

We also no longer just attract banes but actual spirits from our inner world, i.e giving a person a head start on the path many spirit binders in our inner world follow.
 
Winter and Summer courts, certain Wildfae. Certain members of White Council, Jade Court, White Court. And it also means that the Paths become pretty much barred to Red Court, as they could expect an ambush there at all times.
The Winter and Summer Courts are not at active war with the Red Court at the moment, and their senior personnel have dayjobs apparently with regards to the Court function.

There's literally only two named Wildfae who are of sufficient power to matter, and neither have interest in needlessly aggroing the Red King. The White Council is at war, and is acutely short-handed. The Jade Court we have literally never seen in canon or this AU for that matter; all the akuma came from Yomi Wan. The White Court do not do direct action if they can avoid it.

The NeverNever is Huge.
The Reds are already persona non grata in Faerie, but the rest of the NeverNever is vast, and there are often alternate pathways besides the most travelled ones.

Badly, if only they weren't in an existential war with White Council already, and counted us as a hostile too. They already are hiring godling assassins to go after us and ours (see Broken Seeker). And that was before we offed Arianna. If you are worried about escalation, you should have worried earlier.
Its almost as if there's room for escalation with significant collateral damage
How good do you think we are at fending off mortal thralls bombing our allies in Chicago?
Drawing Federal attention?

You want to go fight in the Vampire War overtly, make an argument for it.
This backdoor shit doesnt work and just means that we lose a lot more people.

Pretty chill, as it is, I would expect. Sacrificial magic is not Kemmler's exclusive domain, it's pretty much everyone's. And splendors aren't necromancy, and it's easy to check and feel that they aren't necromancy.
I think thats delusional.

We have seen no modern sacrificial magic in the Dresden Files that wasnt used by Bad Guys.
Odin, who remembers the old days, took offense to the Red Court trying to work sacrificial or blood magic at Chitchen Itza.
You're essentially arguing that the swastika is not an exclusively Nazi symbol to survivors of WW2.

And thats not counting all the effort we've been investing in wooing the White Council as well.
None of whom are likely to appreciate this sort of attempted ruleslawyering.
And yet, if they could do this on anything approaching large scale, like you suggest for some manner of hypothetical vampire farming operations (which, again, would be completely pointless, as we are under no obligation to accept any given vampire elder given to us), their approach to recruiting would make zero sense. Note that we never see this being done to reduce recovery or training times.
1) Maeve just did it for the entirety of Winter's forces that werent at the Outer Gates.
And she did it onscreen.
Its not an If.


2)Turns out that people can hold grudges if they think you are fucking with them.


3)We dont see it because our PoV character is a mortal baby wizard who isnt even forty years old. Not a Sidhe noble.
Seriously, why are you expecting that a series largely written in the first person is going to know about stuff happening on a literally different layer of reality when the protagonist has not previously interacted with?

Dresden literally had no idea of the size of Winter's forces and responsibilities until he became Winter Knight.
And you are expecting him(and us) to know the details of whats happening in Faerie?
Why?
 
The Winter and Summer Courts are not at active war with the Red Court at the moment, and their senior personnel have dayjobs apparently with regards to the Court function.

There's literally only two named Wildfae who are of sufficient power to matter, and neither have interest in needlessly aggroing the Red King. The White Council is at war, and is acutely short-handed. The Jade Court we have literally never seen in canon or this AU for that matter; all the akuma came from Yomi Wan. The White Court do not do direct action if they can avoid it.

The NeverNever is Huge.
The Reds are already persona non grata in Faerie, but the rest of the NeverNever is vast, and there are often alternate pathways besides the most travelled ones.
Yes, but you need to pass through faerie in order to get to other parts of NeverNever if you are travelling from the real world. At least that's how it's normally done.

And you are overestimating how busy Winter / Summer fae are - Maeve was free enough to guard NeverNever passages against Reds passing on a minute's notice. And you don't need to do honorable thing one on one - packs of fae could hunt together.

If what you said was true, Winter and Summer couldn't control the Ways at all.
Its almost as if there's room for escalation with significant collateral damage
How good do you think we are at fending off mortal thralls bombing our allies in Chicago?
Drawing Federal attention?

You want to go fight in the Vampire War overtly, make an argument for it.
This backdoor shit doesnt work and just means that we lose a lot more people.
That's going to happen anyway. Red Court will keep escalating. They have already escalated to the point of hiring godling assassins against us anyway. Us hiring assassins against them is not escalation.
1) Maeve just did it for the entirety of Winter's forces that werent at the Outer Gates.
And she did it onscreen.
Its not an If.
What? No. She didn't. What the f*ck are you talking about?
3)We dont see it because our PoV character is a mortal baby wizard who isnt even forty years old. Not a Sidhe noble.
Seriously, why are you expecting that a series largely written in the first person is going to know about stuff happening on a literally different layer of reality when the protagonist has not previously interacted with?

Dresden literally had no idea of the size of Winter's forces and responsibilities until he became Winter Knight.
And you are expecting him(and us) to know the details of whats happening in Faerie?
Why?
I expect Mab to know better. If Winter could do arbitrary time dilation, then building in "f*ck as much as possible to replenish losses at Outer Gates, and keep gathering child levies" parts of their nature wouldn't make sense. Winter is barely able to replace their losses fast enough. Mab tells Molly that if she had any better idea than to take children, she's free to implement that.

Large scale time dilation usable to raising troops is not possible. Otherwise the setting breaks down completely, and Winter are too stupid to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
 
Large scale time dilation usable to raising troops is not possible. Otherwise the setting breaks down completely, and Winter are too stupid to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
I expect that it is very possible, but I also expect that it isn't reliable and too much dilation can be worse than too little. One day you show up and find it has been a few thousand years your overseers were overthrow and there is a new king in town.
 
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And I imagine for every forward time dilation effect that exists in the Never Never There is a just as large backwards time dilation effect where you actually age backwards and not like cartoon age backwards where you remember things older but like actually regress into like a child or teenager if you're in them and sometimes they reverse places and hell probably a lot of them are migratory in the first place.
 
I expect that it is very possible, but I also expect that it isn't reliable and too much dilation can be worse than too little. One day you show up and find it has been a few thousand years your overseers were overthrow and there is a new king in town.
Also, time dilation (allowing someone to experience ten days while one day passes for the rest of the universe) and time compression (having someone experience 1 second, while a thousand years pass for the universe) are likely different effects.
 
My point is that we have never been meaningfully threatened to the point of risking dying., So I do not see the point of buying a lot of ox body charms. Maybe 1 but not 2.

To be fair, I'm getting the impression that there's not a ton of space between "totally fine" and "oh shit we're fucked." This is exacerbated by how being wounded makes you worse at fighting so death spirals are a concern.
 
My point is that we have never been meaningfully threatened to the point of risking dying., So I do not see the point of buying a lot of ox body charms. Maybe 1 but not 2.
No offense, but this is a horrible way of looking at it. Molly's enemies will only increase in power and intelligence as the world better understands what they are dealing with. Just because the amount of health we have or particular strategies we've employed has worked out for us so far doesn't mean it will hold against the mounting threats.

Be realistic man. It's not good to wait for us to get screwed over in a fight before addressing dump stats.
 
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To be fair, I'm getting the impression that there's not a ton of space between "totally fine" and "oh shit we're fucked." This is exacerbated by how being wounded makes you worse at fighting so death spirals are a concern.
No offense, but this is a horrible way of looking at it. Molly's enemies will only increase in power and intelligence as the world better understands what they are dealing with. Just because the amount of health we have or particular strategies we've employed has worked out for us so far doesn't mean it will hold against the mounting threats.

Be realistic man. Don't wait for us to get screwed over in a fight before addressing dump stats.
Sadly hlvls is not the way to go. What you need is soak.

Hlvls ensure that even if you survive you are hit by wound penalties and Infernals have no native penalty reducer except a 5 dot shifty one turn turn bonus into penalty charm.

We have also maxed out Stamina as much as reasonably possible.

So getting Ox Body will not help much, if at all.
 
Sadly hlvls is not the way to go. What you need is soak.

Hlvls ensure that even if you survive you are hit by wound penalties and Infernals have no native penalty reducer except a 5 dot shifty one turn turn bonus into penalty charm.

We have also maxed out Stamina as much as reasonably possible.

So getting Ox Body will not help much, if at all.
each Ox-Body adds three more HL boxes at only -1 penalty instead of anything more debilitating.

It is vastly helpful.
 
So getting Ox Body will not help much, if at all.
Um.. no because having more health means you can fight for longer before absolutely needing, not just choosing, but actually NEEDING to pop Shintai. If we've already used it and we try to use it again and it doesn't work then all we may have in that fight is our base health and maybe any health potions we have on hand.
 
We have also maxed out Stamina as much as reasonably possible.
We also only have Stamina 3, that's hardly maxed out.

Though not as much of a priority due to our charms which add a lot of soak already.

Those still leave us with the problem of the variance of dice rolls, sometimes you are simply unlucky with the rolls and get hurt no matter how many soak dice you roll.

Health Level's are a guaranteed buffer zone.
 
And you are overestimating how busy Winter / Summer fae are - Maeve was free enough to guard NeverNever passages against Reds passing on a minute's notice
Tbf that might be because of our position of having 2 favors. Even if she was busy it's not implausible that she dropped whatever it was. Then again she is negligent in her duties so who knows.
 
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The Ability to allow people to use demon arts with little to no downsides is a significant power.

As in companion levels of power. This would catapult Molly's brother and Olivia as potential circle members. Keep in mind that the Qaios allow mortals to contend with the Kindred of the East. Maybe not on an equal basis but as a power on to their own.

Add safe to use demon arts into that mix and you have a significant power. Both as individuals and as groups. Mook spam is a viable tactic and the ability to spam Mooks who are a mix of two splats or at least half of one is a significant ability.

Even otherwise, it opens up soul manipulation to Molly and which I doubt you would care for it, I want to unlock the ability to make Investudes like the Yama Kings and the rest do.
I don't think we have confirmation of it opening more general soul manipulation. I would be interested in it, but I don't see the utility in practice here.

Yes the charm can do powerful things, but what need do we have or anticipate having that this charm fills in the immediate future that makes it worth getting compared to anything else?

We could awaken a number of people, then they have to train to get good and they're still going to be mortals. Really good MAs can match up with some vampires, but this is a minion charm and not a vamp maker or off brand exalt investor. There are limits.

Why is this better than bringing in 20 people from the FCF or giving our vampires actual equipment?
 
Sadly hlvls is not the way to go. What you need is soak.

Hlvls ensure that even if you survive you are hit by wound penalties and Infernals have no native penalty reducer except a 5 dot shifty one turn turn bonus into penalty charm.

We have also maxed out Stamina as much as reasonably possible.

So getting Ox Body will not help much, if at all.
On top of what others have said we have also bought a Infernal wound penalty reducer By Pain Reforged ●. Also more health levels makes soak more powerful because you can use it more.

So actually every sentence of this post is in fact wrong.
 
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Why is this better than bringing in 20 people from the FCF or giving our vampires actual equipment?
20 ppl from our inner world who are mortal in base stats. As for vampires, they need training too. As per RAW, a starting Vampire can be captured and drained for blood by a Ghoul (WoD). But regardless of who we bring in, they are going to be mortal or require traing because no one with real power above mook status has joined Molly so far.

So regardless, there are pros and cons. But with the charm, we can turn people into splats, or half splats which does put them heads and shoulders above most people.
It is vastly helpful.
Agree to disagree here. My argument was never, it is not useful but rather, it is not needed. I will point out that when we got the Anti-shaping charm, we have yet to use it. 15xp and not one use so far.

We have also yet to be injured to the point that we have used the current ox body charm that we purchased. That is the context with which I am working off.

But regardless, it is my personal opinion and I am mainly pushing for IDU this turn.
 
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