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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Artemis1992 said:
[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are
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Not sure I agree with this vote, but if you want to do it here is a stunt

[][Stunt] "Actually beating Arianna wasn't that hard. The only time she hurt me at all was with a lightening bolt and that was barely a scratch. When I am juiced up for combat it's hard to hurt me with anything a human can carry. No the real trick was protecting all hostages on board."
 
uju32 said:
^^^
The last six months have had Molly tangling with ex-Valkyries, greater akuma, god-monsters, ancient vampires, Outsiders and naagloshii. And we've had a headsup that there's Fallen in our future. All of these are well outside the weight class we can reasonably expect Daniel to deal with, even with all the buffs we can reasonably expect to give him.

And as the son of a Knight and sister of an Infernal, he would be a priority target if he puts himself in the field.
Specifically to distract, or to attack his family in ways they cant directly defend against.


There's also the other aspects of this stuff.
Consider how much of Molly, or even Lydia's work involves just talking to people and getting information from them, or convincing them to change their minds. Dealing with temptations from various actors. Making judgements.

It doesnt really matter how well he can swing a sword or shoot a gun if a White Court vampire or an Enticer can whammy him. Or if a Coin can subvert him.
Being able to fight is only a fraction of what this life involves.

Then having to deal with the aftermath.

Molly has killed more than ten people in the last six months; Kattrin, The Will, Rhys the Ragged and his minions, Arianna and hers, Hank the skinwalker. And thats with her sheer power and skill allowing her the luxury of seeking non-lethal options
Harry had nightmares after killing people, and probably still does.

A largely normal 16/17 year old isnt ready for that.
Someone like Olivia doesnt have the choice, she's already born into it and doesnt have an angel bodyguard detail on her home.
He does.
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For what it's worth Molly also has the advantage that one of her Key Charms is Lanka which is... akin let's say from the class of charms that were favored by the Slayers. Yes, they are in fact what they sound like. :V
 
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tenchifew said:
I feel this would be mistake.
If I am reading him at all correctly, this would not make him give up, but turn him to shadier means to get the power he craves.
And even if successful… I see him grow up a bitter and disappointed man. Giving him a genuine chance just sounds as better for him.

[x] Goldfish
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1)You're not reading him correctly at all.

His father is a Knight of the Cross. He's seen the other two Knights. Dresden, his fathers friend, is a White Council wizard.
His sister was canonically first a White Council wizard apprentice, and then Winter Lady. He was canonically hanging out with Billy the werewolf in Ghost Story after getting back from Afghanistan.

In none of those cases did he go seeking "shadier power".

He doesnt crave power per se, he's just a fundamentally level-headed teenager who is having a Moment and not really thinking through what he's asking.
This is a Talk To Him trigger, not an Empower Him one.

And frankly, if I thought he was the type of person who would seek power through shady means, I would be adamant about not letting him near any. Because he wouldnt be trustworthy.
Especially since there is nothing you can do that will put him in the same tier as his sister or his father, or even his girlfriend.



2)IC? This is not a game where everyone gets a chance to try out.
And some people are bigger targets than others.

Nicodemus canonically threw a Coin at Michael's youngest to fuck him up and fuck up the Carpenter family; thats how Harry ended up with Lasciel, because he was "coincidentally" around to intervene. Imagine precisely what he'd do with a kid of Michael's thats deliberately discarded the protections that being a family member of a Knight affords him.

And thats just the Fallen.
 
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[X] Plan Designing Greatness
-[X] Offer to help
--[X] You yourself are growing. You have a feeling that you can develop a power to design miraculous objects - magical items straight from fantasy books. When you do, you will make him something to allow him to grasp the power he so wants. Not necessary a crutch, but something to allow him to gain power of his own.
---[X] Work together with him to work out what exactly is that he wants in terms of power. You make no promises of being able to make exactly that, but it's good to know what sort of ability he strives for.
----[X] Empathy excellency
----[X] Stunt: You sit down with Daniel, and dump a load of D&D books, and other media, such as superhero comics, on the table, a fresh character sheet in front of you. Thrusting a cup of cocoa in front of him, you open the first one: "So, let's design who you want to be, shall we?"
-[X] Offer training
--[X] You now have access to trainers and masters of their arts unknown on Earth. If he is willing, you can arrange for him to be trained in the Courts over vacations at least.
---[X] Christmas vacation is coming up soon and he'll have two weeks off from school. Some of that will need to be spent with the family and Lydia, of course, but we can arrange for him to visit our realm for 9 or 10 days (assuming our parents consent). While there, he'll be trained (i.e. worked into the ground) in FCF combat, weaponry, technology, etc., and sorcery if he proves capable.
---[X] This is only an introduction, however, a chance for him to get his feet wet and an opportunity no one else from Earth has benefited from so far. If he does well and impresses his instructors, we can make further arrangements for him to visit on the weekends, culminating in a more rigorous course over the upcoming Summer.

Something like this. Give him options. I think we all agree that we'll be getting Craft charm soon, probably next XP buy. And we felt it in character, so yeah, we can talk about this.

I respect his decision to join to the fight, and I respect him realizing that he can't be a househusband and equal-ish partner to a terrestrial exalt. Is it nepotism to make him powerful splendors? Yes. But I can live with that.
 
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VOTE
[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are

RATIONALE
@Artemis1992 has raised some of the objections I have. And I think I've mentioned others.
The proper reaction to a 16-year old with no special powers and a lot of inherited family enemies trying to abandon his bodyguards and get involved in a war is to talk him down, not to hand him a rifle and say have at it.

I have no problem with educating him. Or equipping him for self defense.
I do think that trying to put him in the field because he's insecure about his girlfriend is foolhardy, and will create potentially lethal problems for everyone around him.
 
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If we go with my plan, we can keep Daniel occupied with legit training in the FCF while keeping him out of trouble and too worn out to go looking for action.

It'll give him a sense of accomplishment and teach him valuable skills, familiarize him with the FCF, and give us time to potentially learn the Charms or abilities needed to boost him later on. If he decides he doesn't want to be a FCF-style technomagical cyborg or something.
 
fictionfan said:
I mean yes that is true, but I don't think Harry would have either. There is a wide space between useless and can't handle the most deadly places in the world.
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Dresden has the the right mix of luck and skill to probably not make it out there, but then do so anyway.
Unless we can assume that DP is going to fudge the rolls to treat Daniel like Butcher treats his protagonist, I don't see it work.
 
Goldfish said:
If we go with my plan, we can keep Daniel occupied with legit training in the FCF while keeping him out of trouble and too worn out to go looking for action.

It'll give him a sense of accomplishment and teach him valuable skills, familiarize him with the FCF, and give us time to potentially learn the Charms or abilities needed to boost him later on. If he decides he doesn't want to be a FCF-style technomagical cyborg or something.
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1) As someone who isnt too old to forget being a teenager? Too worn out to go looking for action aint gonna work.
He's our brother and a student going to school, not a soldier under our command.


2)Charity is Michael's training partner; she's that good. She trained Butters after he was chosen by Fidelacchius.
Mathew's currently interested in the sword, and is thus getting sword lessons from Michael; how much of that is because of supernatural shit, and how much is because he is a Bleach fan, Im not sure of.

The training Daniel's chosen to get is raising his Occult, so he can impress his girlfriend identify Earthside threats.
And thats not something the Brass Courts has access to, because the Brass Courts are a different environment altogether


3)The problem, as I see it, is that training has never been the issue; the resources exist for that.
We could straight up bring trainers across from Sanctuary if it was necessary.

We're dealing with a personal insecurity problem, in that he's comparing himself to Exalts and having hormonal teenager brain.
And thats not something training is going to help with.

Its not even something that radical transhumanism will help him with.
The only partway-mortal human thing in this setting that might hang with an experienced Terrestrial Exalt or a Celestial Exalt or a Knight of the Cross is a very old Coin wielder.

What we need to do is manage his expectations and talk him down.
Not make him think that we can bestow him with enough power to matter; that way lies disappointment and resentment.
 
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As far as I can see, there are several reasons why he wants to join the fight. Some of them are more legit, some of them are less legit and more selfish. teenage insecurity certainly plays a role, but "a desire to stand at least somewhat equal to one's romantic partner and to do more good in the world" are a valid motivation.

I want to supply him. Yes, we could social-fu him into being a househusband - we are a social exalt, and he's a mortal teenager, barring direct angelic intervention (because this is that level of unfairness), we could convince him of basically anything we wish if we so wanted. I, however, don't want to. I would rather expend resources to help him achieve his desire, after working with him to make sure he understands exactly why he wants power, what kind of power he wants, what he is going to do with it, and what the price might be.

Are there better candidates to empower? That's arguable. We can be certain of Daniel's moral standing. We know him. We can trust him. We can give him power to make him relevant. Would we rather give someone else that power? I don't think so. His initial power level doesn't matter much. It's his character that does.
 
Thinking about all we've fought im kinda tired of not getting more in between time like Dresden does. Like sure none of what we've faced has been as high stakes as Dresden yet in terms of people dying. But, it's still too much in such a short amount of time I wish we got the time Dresden usually gets between books or closer to that.
 
firefrog600 said:
Thinking about all we've fought im kinda tired of not getting more in between time like Dresden does. Like sure none of what we've faced has been as high stakes as Dresden yet in terms of people dying. But, it's still too much in such a short amount of time I wish we got the time Dresden usually gets between books or closer to that.
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The difference between them is... well:
  1. Dresden is powerful, destined for greatness and a smartass, all things that draw trouble.
  2. Infernal Molly is fifty good magical Godzilla breathing radioactive fire.. only when you look inside the suit your eyes melt off from things out of lost ages. She is the trouble as far as a lot of people are concerned, she is a thing that is happening to the city of Chicago and increasingly the world :V
 
Yog said:
As far as I can see, there are several reasons why he wants to join the fight. Some of them are more legit, some of them are less legit and more selfish. teenage insecurity certainly plays a role, but "a desire to stand at least somewhat equal to one's romantic partner and to do more good in the world" are a valid motivation.

I want to supply him. Yes, we could social-fu him into being a househusband - we are a social exalt, and he's a mortal teenager, barring direct angelic intervention (because this is that level of unfairness), we could convince him of basically anything we wish if we so wanted. I, however, don't want to. I would rather expend resources to help him achieve his desire, after working with him to make sure he understands exactly why he wants power, what kind of power he wants, what he is going to do with it, and what the price might be.

Are there better candidates to empower? That's arguable. We can be certain of Daniel's moral standing. We know him. We can trust him. We can give him power to make him relevant. Would we rather give someone else that power? I don't think so. His initial power level doesn't matter much. It's his character that does.
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It does matter.

In putting him out there, you make him a danger to everyone else.
He is a big enough prize in terms of leverage against his family that he will attract aggro beyond his ability or that of anyone who isnt an Exalt or a Knight to manage.

People's lives are at risk, not just his, and they will die because of this, because nobody is empowered to deal with a threat scenario that involves the possibility of Denarian or akuma snatch teams.

I cannot imagine a situation where we've already seen greater akuma and naagloshii attempt kidnappings and then tell our baby brother that he should increase his visibility to said kidnappers and shed the protections that being known to be the son of a Knight afford him and the people around him.

And I strongly disagree with the romantic partner reason the most.
He's 16. He's known Lydia for maybe five months. Most people dont find the love of their life as teenagers. Whether or not he'll still be dating Lydia when he's 21, or if they'll just be friends remains to be seen.

And is probably beyond the scope of this quest.

Furthermore, most supernaturals manage to date normals just fine. Charity has spent twenty something years happily married to a Knight, and she actively gave up her own magic. Dresden dated Murphy, who was a normal, until her death.
Marcy and Andi, both werewolves, were dating Butters, who was a clued in doctor before becoming a Knight.

He doesnt need power to date. Just confidence and knowledge.
 
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[X] Plan Designing Greatness

The Yog plan. I am of the opinion that Daniel needs to get a chance to dip his toes into the supernatural world. Doing it through Molly's Hell is just the most reasonable option. Will he stick with it? Will he choose something else down the road? That's up to him. Talk to Daniel, to Charity and Michael so that they are informed what Daniel is doing and let him decide for himself.

Molly could bend him to her point of view if she spends enough effort but I'm pretty sure she shouldn't.

uju32 said:
We're dealing with a personal insecurity problem, in that he's comparing himself to Exalts and having hormonal teenager brain.
And thats not something training is going to help with.

Its not even something that radical transhumanism will help him with.
The only partway-mortal human thing in this setting that might hang with an experienced Terrestrial Exalt or a Celestial Exalt or a Knight of the Cross is a very old Coin wielder.
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Ehh, considering how Dresden magic works, in theory, it should be possible to match any one of them given time. But it would take a lot of time. Which is not exactly a problem in the long run if Daniel really decides to stick with it, just doesn't help him right now.

The fastest power up would be probably something like training him as a power armor operator if he really wants to beat some baddies.
 
uju32 said:
Furthermore, most supernaturals manage to date normals just fine. Charity has spent twenty something years happily married to a Knight, and she actively gave up her own magic. Dresden dated Murphy, who was a normal, until her death.
Marcy and Andi, both werewolves, were dating Butters, who was a clued in doctor before becoming a Knight.

He doesnt need power to date. Just confidence and knowledge.
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It does kinda suck that Exalted make no difference between regular power and power used to affect social situations.

Harry would never try to use mind-magic on a date, Micheal couldn't do any mental effects at all except for specific cases like countering other people's mind-affecting stuff.
But Molly and Lydia can be inhumanly convincing and they don't exactly avoid using excellencies around friends and family.
 
Zoolimar said:
Ehh, considering how Dresden magic works, in theory, it should be possible to match any one of them given time. But it would take a lot of time. Which is not exactly a problem in the long run if Daniel really decides to stick with it, just doesn't help him right now.

The fastest power up would be probably something like training him as a power armor operator if he really wants to beat some baddies.
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Its not.
It really isnt.
Exalts wouldnt be the setting-shattering interlopers that they are if it was possible to simply grow an equivalent by training someone for severla hundred years.
Artemis1992 said:
I does kinda suck that Exalted make no difference between regular power and power used to affect social situations.

Harry would never try to use mind-magic on a date, Micheal couldn't do any mental effects at all except for specific cases like countering other people's mind-affecting stuff.
But Molly and Lydia can be inhumanly convincing and they don't exactly avoid using excellencies around friends and family.
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Thats kinda the point with Exalts; they're not using magic per se, they're just being more of what they are.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
It does kinda suck that Exalted make no difference between regular power and power used to affect social situations.

Harry would never try to use mind-magic on a date, Micheal couldn't do any mental effects at all except for specific cases like countering other people's mind-affecting stuff.
But Molly and Lydia can be inhumanly convincing and they don't exactly avoid using excellencies around friends and family.
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For what it's worth Excellencies are a part of the Exalt, they are memories of previous incarnations bubbling near the surface of their minds, they are the Perfection of the Sun (or the Authority of the Holy Tyrant, the Fury and Cunning of the Moon; the Wisdom of the Stars etc...) made manifest. Not using excellencies would feel incredibly claustrophobic to an Exalt in a spiritual sense. Who they are when they spend that mote for excellency is still them, in fact it is more them, it is the them that does not fit into human bounds.

Edit: Sidereal'd by @uju32
 
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uju32 said:
In putting him out there, you make him a danger to everyone else.
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Man, talk about denying agency, no chances at all he would grow resentful or anything, or that Lydia would... seriously, he is not *a liability*, he is Molly's brother, denying him in these grounds, when we are able to make him matter at that, to protect him with our craft and by training him, is dishonest.

Molly's father may have his sword, but he is a lambda human otherwise, yet he is not *a danger to everyone else*, we can make Daniel an artefact, it won't be a sword, but we won't ask him to take the biggest ennemies, just to be able to hold on his own merit.

Or, you want to discourage him? Train him, train him hard, that way, he either stick to it and get the training to matter, or get discouraged and cannot reproach it to us.

[x] Yog
 
DragonParadox said:
For what it's worth Excellencies are a part of the Exalt, they are memories of previous incarnations bubbling near the surface of your mind, they are the Perfection of the Sun (or the Authority of the Holy Tyrant, the Fury and Cunning of the Moon; the Wisdom of the Stars etc...) made manifest. Not using excellencies would feel incredibly claustrophobic to an Exalt in a spiritual sense. Who they are when they spend that mote for excellency is still them, in fact it is more them, it is the them that does not fit into human bounds.

Edit: Sidereal'd by @uju32
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No issue with that, but it does make relationships with humans difficult.

A Wizard would have to choose to use mindmagic, to enhance himself or even influence another, to create the same kind of inequality that Exalts cause by existing.
 
Artemis1992 said:
It does kinda suck that Exalted make no difference between regular power and power used to affect social situations.
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Isn't that different from epic D&D 3.5 (and in case of certain people it would be around level 10), if you are not running Mind Blank at high levels you are always at risk of a wild Bard coming out of the left field and making you into their fanatical follower. The worst part is that they can do it with pop music.

Most groups just have a gentleman's agreement of not being dicks about it. On both sides of the screen.

At least Exalted spends effort on actually acknowledging what kind of powers players may wield and what they can do with them.
 
Artemis1992 said:
No issue with that, but it does make relationships with humans difficult.

A Wizard would have to choose to use mindmagic, to enhance himself or even influence another, to create the same kind of inequality that Exalts cause by existing.
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Yep, that is (the lesser) part of the reason why the First Age Solars went off the deep end. It was mostly the Great Curse, but the way it worked for most of them was to make them increasingly remote from humanity, something their very nature and powers inclined them towards already. The ones that stayed sanest were the ones who figured out how to keep those bonds with mortals or at least with their Dragonblooded subordinates.
 
DragonParadox said:
The difference between them is... well:
  1. Dresden is powerful, destined for greatness and a smartass, all things that draw trouble.
  2. Infernal Molly is fifty good magical Godzilla breathing radioactive fire.. only when you look inside the suit your eyes melt off from things out of lost ages. She is the trouble as far as a lot of people are concerned, she is a thing that is happening to the city of Chicago and increasingly the world :V
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Most people don't poke mab and that's not even just a reputation thing that's the stuff she radiates. If anything while it shouldn't be exaggerated more time should pass by. Also you know only one of our enemies were actually here strictly just cause of us.
 
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