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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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firefrog600 said:
But, please for the love of god stop suggesting we murder someone that if we kill them we become a permanent enemy of the court and multiple members of the accords. Please.
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Dude. Chill.

We're not strong enough to kill Mab yet. But once we are, I doubt whoever follows Mab would be as dumb as her and continue hostilities against a greater power as Mab did with Ethniu (to be fair, Mab couldn't exactly make peace with Ethniu, which is part of why pissing her off shows how stupid Mab was, but if Molly offered peace to the next Winter Queen after slaughtering Mab I'm fairly certain that Queen would agree rather quickly).

And the Accords kind of already account for battles between signing members, in that it's their business and no one else. No one's gonna weep if Mab ends up eating dirt to Molly, and no one's gonna gang up on her like they did Ethniu 'cause Molly ain't Ethniu (even if they tried, the White Council and the Knights would be backing the superpower that Molly would be at that point rather than helping everybody else against it as they did with Ethniu). I can't think of a single member of the Accords who could give a shit about Mab, honestly, even if Molly never signs the Accords before wrecking her ass.

firefrog600 said:
I mean given a bit of time she could put a continent in an ice age. This isn't dragonball power levels aren't exactly easily visible in all aspects.
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Yzarc said:
Can she do that or is the Winter Mother doing it and everyone assuming that Mab is doing it?
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Regardless of her potential capacity to manipulate weather on a global scale, we know that shit's useless in a fight given even Titania at full power during Midsummer could only deactivate the Eye with her weather control but still lost to Ethniu's pure swagger. We've never seen any greater act of weather control than that in a fight, which implies heavily that it can't be used in a fast-paced magical brawl or won't be useful against goons swole enough to pick fights with Faerie Queens.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I mean jim butcher has said she can do it in the books too. Winter mother is presumably even more bullshit. Also I mean even certain wizards can cause volcanoes to erupt mab is much higher magnitude than them. I don't know why this is actually asked.
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Err......I am making a joke and was not expected to be taken seriously.

Also with regards to WOD, Wilbrow has poisoned me for them and general rule of thumb is if it is not in the Books, it does not count. Willbrow has given many MANY WoDs that directly contradict what is in the pages.
TheGrape said:
Regardless
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I was largely joking so please do not take me seriously.
 
TheGrape said:
Dude. Chill.

We're not strong enough to kill Mab yet. But once we are, I doubt whoever follows Mab would be as dumb as her and continue hostilities against a greater power as Mab did with Ethniu (to be fair, Mab could exactly make peace with Ethniu, which is part of why pissing her off shows how stupid Mab was, but if Molly offered peace to the next Winter Queen after slaughtering Mab I'm fairly certain that Queen would agree rather quickly).

And the Accords kind of already account for battles between signing members, in that it's their business and no one else. No one's gonna weep if Mab ends up eating dirt to Molly, and no one's gonna gang up on her like they did Ethniu 'cause Molly ain't Ethniu (even if they tried, the White Council and the Knights would be backing the superpower that Molly would be at that point rather than helping everybody else against it as they did with Ethniu). I can't think of a single member of the Accords who could give a shit about Mab, honestly.





Regardless of her potential capacity to manipulate weather on a global scale, we know that shit's useless in a fight given even Titania at full power during Midsummer could only deactivate the Eye with her weather control but still lost to Ethniu's pure swagger. We've never seen any greater act of weather control than that in a fight, which implies heavily that it can't be used in a fast-paced magical brawl or won't be useful against goons swole enough to pick fights with Faerie Queens.
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I figured it'd be more like a ritual than a in combat thing also you know its not all that useful in combat its not like the whole storm hits something directly. Also I'd rather not murder the queen of winter in any scenario also you mention intimidation but you know that they could possibly be forced to be an enemy of us right? Inherited debts are a thing after all good and bad. Mind you they could possibly get new debts and stuff but it doesn't seem smart. Why aren't you amenable to just changing things and getting promises and not making enemies?

Also yeah definitely not useful for those who are swole the worry is the humans and squishy supernaturals and starvation and stuff.
 
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Yzarc said:
Err......I am making a joke and was not expected to be taken seriously.

Also with regards to WOD, Wilbrow has poisoned me for them and general rule of thumb is if it is not in the Books, it does not count. Willbrow has given many MANY WoDs that directly contradict what is in the pages.

I was largely joking so please do not take me seriously.
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Butchers not actually contradicted anything in wog. Also I mean butchers mentioned wog that will NEVER appear in the books. Like he said odin has soulfire but that it will never be brought up in the books. For other people oh I doubt anyone would cry but I assume shes made deals throughout the years others would have to commit too. Also you know the same thing as killing dragons apparently has disasters for the world I worry about killing too much of winter at once. Probably better to just negotiate instead and trade to enable defense of the world. I can be sure the person who inherits the positions will not have a thousand years of experience thats for sure or even be all that good with all their powers. Molly isn't even as good as maeve after all at being a winter lady. Actually kinda sad about the dragon thing since apparently it could cause problems and freak out the supernatural community. As far as we know it might cause worldwide earthquakes or something if all the dragons die I wanna kill a dragon but for the worlds sake thats probably a bad idea.

Also please don't compare butcher to wildbow hes not perfect but he doesn't just make grimdark world of grimdark or constantly contradict himself.
 
firefrog600 said:
I figured it'd be more like a ritual than a in combat thing also you know its not all that useful in combat its not like the whole storm hits something directly. Also I'd rather not murder the queen of winter in any scenario also you mention intimidation but you know that they could possibly be forced to be any enemy of us right? Inherited debts are a thing after all good and bad. Mind you they could possibly get new debts and stuff but it doesn't seem smart. Why aren't you amenable to just changing things and getting promises and not making enemies?
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I am amenable to changing things and getting promises and not making enemies!

I'm not exactly frothing at the teeth to go go go kill slay Mab now now now!

I'm just making clear my opinion that one way to change things for the better is to (eventually) slaughter all monsters who prey on humanity or, I dunno, kidnap and enslave and indoctrinate children. *cough*

You seem to misunderstand one thing: by the time Molly is capable of killing Mab, her sheer power will render many of your concerns academic. Namely, if Winter wanted to remain hostile, Winter would go the way of Mab: dead. If Molly could kill Mab, any Winter Fae opposing her would be suicide, and I doubt many Winter Fae have sworn suicidal debts to be repaid at any cost. They might annoy or aggravate her, but by virtue of the deed itself no Winter Fae would want to go too far in fulfilling their hypothetical promises to avenge Mab's death.

Sometimes you must compromise for the greater good. But sometimes you don't need to, because you are powerful enough. As an Infernal, Molly will find more situations like the latter than the former. Fortunately, Mab's impending doom falls into the latter category.
 
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TheGrape said:
I am amenable to changing things and getting promises and not making enemies!

I'm not exactly frothing at the teeth to go go go kill slay Mab now now now!

I'm just making clear my opinion that the best way to change things for the better is to (eventually) slaughter all monsters who prey on humanity or, I dunno, kidnap and enslave and indoctrinate children. *cough*

You seem to misunderstand one thing: by the time Molly is capable of killing Mab, her sheer power will render many of your concerns academic. Namely, if Winter wanted to remain hostile, Winter would go the way of Mab: dead. If Molly could kill Mab, any Winter Fae opposing her would be suicide, and I doubt many Winter Fae have sworn suicidal debts to be repaid at any cost. They might annoy or aggravate her, but by virtue of the deed itself no Winter Fae would want to go too far in fulfilling their hypothetical promises to avenge Mab's death.

Sometimes you must compromise for the greater good. But sometimes you don't need to, because you are powerful enough. As an Infernal, Molly will find more situations like the latter than the former. Fortunately, Mab's impending doom falls into the latter category.
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I feel mother winter and mother summer might be opponents that could harm us even at essence 5 given they cannot be in reality long cause they well damage it. Kinda makes another parallel to white wolf really of bullshit powerful beings of some kind being kicked out. Also I was more thinking we'd incur a debt by killing the queen which seems possible you can incur stuff just by eating food after all. The knights have a role of actually killing royalty if they have too though since mother, queen, and lady usually can't without nemesis at least. Also in fairness if we can leverage their forces that'd be even better than not compromising much. If we could replace children with something else from our hell or something I'd be amenable. Though I do find the idea of sending our people against outsiders uh scary but I imagine volunteers would definitely serve to fight the unending hordes that threaten everything. Being amenable for negotiations is all I can really ask for though so pretty happy with this conversation. Oh also keep in mind power doesn't mean without consequences not even for us but others. Supernatural power vacuums, incompetent replacements, and supernatural environmental disasters caused by certain deaths. Oh also the fact that bad monsters are infinite in number in some places.

Offhand grape if we took over a hell what would you want to do with all the bad inhabitants? If I had my way we could reincarnate most into new forms cause like there's no real healing for the wicked city. Maybe healing and purging for Emma-O. But, like even the tortured souls would likely prefer a new start even if it takes a fuck long time. Also if we say ate a hell could we like put it right below our hell, attached to the land, in the sky?
 
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firefrog600 said:
I feel mother winter and mother summer might be opponents that could harm us even at essence 5 given they cannot be in reality long cause they well damage it. Kinda makes another parallel to white wolf really of bullshit powerful beings of some kind being kicked out. Also I was more thinking we'd incur a debt by killing the queen which seems possible you can incur stuff just by eating food after all. The knights have a role of actually killing royalty if they have too though since mother, queen, and lady usually can't without nemesis at least. Also in fairness if we can leverage their forces that'd be even better than not compromising much. If we could replace children with something else from our hell or something I'd be amenable. Though I do find the idea of sending our people against outsiders uh scary but I imagine volunteers would definitely serve to fight the unending hordes that threaten everything. Being amenable for negotiations is all I can really ask for though so pretty happy with this conversation. Oh also keep in mind power doesn't mean without consequences not even for us but others. Supernatural power vacuums, incompetent replacements, and supernatural environmental disasters caused by certain deaths. Oh also the fact that bad monsters are infinite in number in some places.

Offhand grape if we took over a hell what would you want to do with all the bad inhabitants? If I had my way we could reincarnate most into new forms cause like there's no real healing for the wicked city. Maybe healing and purging for Emma-O. But, like even the tortured souls would likely prefer a new start even if it takes a fuck long time. Also if we say ate a hell could we like put it right below our hell, attached to the land, in the sky?
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At a certain point, you just gotta kill the monster and deal with the repercussions. Don't do it blindly and prepare beforehand as well as you can, but don't fall for the lie that Hard Men Making Hard Decisions is the only option. (Also considering Mother Winter couldn't intervene even when Maeve was NInfected, I'd say she's pretty limited even in the Nevernever, much less mundane reality where Molly spends most of her time at)

And I honestly haven't given any thought about redeeming a hell at this point. I only brought up Mab because I had to vent a little after rereading Battle Ground today :D
 
Yzarc said:
So Mab is King from One Punch Man?
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I am pretty sure at this point that King actually has a superpower, it's just that it's incredible luck, so, no... he's more competent than her, since things go his way at the very least. :V

Yzarc said:
Also with regards to WOD, Wilbrow has poisoned me for them and general rule of thumb is if it is not in the Books, it does not count. Willbrow has given many MANY WoDs that directly contradict what is in the pages.
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Of course not, it's not as if constructing a megalopolis bigger than Tokyo in less than two years without tinker or other parahumans powers makes no sense, or anything. Or that people wouldn't think of getting food before internet. Or that they wouldn't see that getting all your food from peoples who are explicitly and fervently hostile to you is a bad, bad idea. Oh, wait, you said contradictions from outside the story. :V
 
TheGrape said:
At a certain point, you just gotta kill the monster and deal with the repercussions. Don't do it blindly and prepare beforehand as well as you can, but don't fall for the lie that Hard Men Making Hard Decisions is the only option. (Also considering Mother Winter couldn't intervene even when Maeve was NInfected, I'd say she's pretty limited even in the Nevernever, much less mundane reality where Molly spends most of her time at)

And I honestly haven't given any thought about redeeming a hell at this point. I only brought up Mab because I had to vent a little after rereading Battle Ground today :D
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Oh I'm sure she is very limited though its not like you can just punch the problem and the mothers are probably busy doing something. Like it looks like two old woman in a hut but mystically they could definitely be doing something important. Also I wouldn't call it hard men making hard decisions if we can get what we want and have them defend the world thats all a plus for me. I'd rather kill shit thats completely unhelpful like skinwalkers (watch them have a fundamental role in the world), outsiders, most demons, etc etc.
 
Yzarc said:
Skipped Wards Completely.

My point is that if it is not in the books, it is at best a head canon, regardless of who says it.

"If it is not written, it is not canon" is my motto and WoDs on stuff not written are at best guidelines.
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I fervently disagree on that given some of the word of god is in the books just not as easily spelled out. As in it has background proof to it without the exposition butchers given. We've also gotten wog there are members of the council who knows who harrys related to, who know about thomas, who know about his daughter, but no one with the full picture. Not that this one has much supporting evidence in the books since we don't see their povs. But, there are examples such as some magic wog. Also stuff about long dead characters. Like how is butcher supposed to prove that kemmler is dead dead except for wog, or that dresdens grandpa was in a war a few centuries ago, or maeves parental origins when that would never come up in the books especially since shes dead?
 
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A sad fact about butchers writing is that the world is more than the characters we see in it. There will likely always be mysteries and stuff unknown to us. The worlds simply more important than dresden and others have had their own stories so some wogs on those is nice every once in a while. Butcher did say if he ever wrote a spin off of dresden files one option would be ebenezar mccoy and arthur during the French and Indian war when they were essentially young hotshots like dresden on opposing sides.
 
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Dmol8 said:
So uh...when's Harry getting one of these as a pet? No not because we gave him one as a present, but because that's his luck.
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It'd be funnier if we gave him something that looks harmless but is actually hilariously dangerous.

Given the significant amount of metal and radiologicals in the fivefold courts' ecosystem you could get all sorts of funny creatures.

Like a rat with polonium spit, or some sort of lizard that spits Iron Pentacarbonyl at people and starting toxic fires. Bonus points if it's mildly magically charged/super effective against faeries.

Organometallic chemistry has some fun things in it to inspire various highly unfortunate critters in the sort of environment we're working with. I picked iron pentacarbonyl for that example because it's almost too on brand, but there are significantly less pleasant options.


TheGrape said:
But yeah in light of Battle Ground and its depiction of Mab I'm very much not inclined to thinking it's a bad idea to kill Mab
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Seems unfair to solely judge Mab by what happened in Battle Ground.

That entire book read like bad Dresden Files fan fiction, everyone in it acts like a damn idiot and does weird shit for no reason.

I mean, go count the number of times people with significantly better things to do with their time pause to have an on screen discussion about how cool Harry is for doing basic shit with bare competence.

Or the super weapon that was the Eye of Balor getting hyped up to the point where it completely defies previously established expectations of the setting in terms of things like what it takes to kill an archangel, then failing to off anyone who mattered.

If everyone exhibited the competence levels from that book in the prior entries to the series the setting would have collapsed into a flaming wreck during the first chapter of Fool Moon.

It's baffling, I'm genuinely surprised Butcher wrote it.
 
firefrog600 said:
we probably have a fair few people with beyond 5 dot affects. Like still rare but when EVERYONE is immortal there are gonna be a handfull of a few thousand year old alchemists, martial artists, shapeshifters, elemental manipulators, or even just administrators who go above and beyond. Still rare cause I assume most over a few thousand years old go to the city of endings to either do some kind of reincarnation or true ending.
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True given the hell inhabits, getting VEE becomes even more important. Having the people we call upon be groups with 6 dot paths as base, with potentially 7 dots commander's, is a big deal. That is getting into spend a week on a ritual, and alter the course of history, as a effect we can utilize weekly.
 
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[X] First thing's first, get Izzy and Alec to some kind of medical facility, you can deal with the rest of this later.
 
Hmmm vote seems to be ascend, but it is narrowing and I may have unintentionally tilted the vote that way with how I described getting medical help, I think I'll leave it up a few more hours
(also I currently have a minor headache I'm hoping will go down soon rather than stop being minor)
Adhoc vote count started by Vanguard_D on Aug 12, 2023 at 8:56 AM, finished with 326 posts and 48 votes.
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DragonParadox said:
Hmmm vote seems to be ascend, but it is narrowing and I may have unintentionally tilted the vote that way with how I described getting medical help, I think I'll leave it up a few more hours
(also I currently have a minor headache I'm hoping will go down soon rather than stop being minor)
Adhoc vote count started by Vanguard_D on Aug 12, 2023 at 8:56 AM, finished with 326 posts and 48 votes.
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could you close it in an hour if no one makes any votes in the next hour?
 
… Wait, is Usum still connected to Molly in a way that lets them communicate via thought? Or at least understand her implicitly enough to pick up on subtext?

I didn't vote for @TonedMite 's plan because stopping to talk to him about it is basically the the direct medical vote with extra steps.

However if we can direct him to step to the side and poke at a screen with a thought or a glance we can satisfy everyone here.


Though to be clear on my opinion here I don't think it'll speed things up.

I'll admit part of my interest isn't totally pure; a cool throne scene sounds amazing and arguing with security doesn't.

That said it's still true that taking the throne immediately turns our request to the next person we talk to into the first order of the god empress' rein. We could talk our way through this situation without that, but that's just pointless complication.

It's also disrespectful to the people here. Calling it mental anguish is a bit much in my opinion, but they still deserve to be taken seriously during an event like this.

Remember that their religion has a specific pillar set on the idea that they'd only properly spring into existence if they were compelling and useful enough to Molly specifically that they'd be chosen among infinite potential alternatives.

It's part of the story they tell themselves about the origin and ordering of their cities, a culture impulse towards seeing living an interesting life as a virtue in itself, and the core prophecy of their faith. It doesn't seem "boring is a sin" level extreme*, but still.

In that context the first act of the god empress being to see the throne of the world and turn away from it to deal with two people she brought from outside would be a particularly strong refutation of their way of life.

If we had to choose between real harm to innocents and being rude clearly we should be rude, but if we don't then we shouldn't. Especially if on the balance being rude isn't reasonably likely to accelerate things.


* I would be surprised if this didn't have a profound impact on their society in all sorts of variably subtle ways.

Stuff like their profanity involving various ways to call people boring, like their version of calling someone a bastard since they probably wouldn't care as much about inheritance law and therefore legitimate parentage given the immorality.

I bet public life and their internet are weird looking too. Everyone hates attention whores, but if the church commands you to be interesting it could encourage that sort of behavior. Seems like the sort of thing that would result in a lot of unspoken social understandings about when and how you're supposed to interact with strangers in public.

Not necessarily anything super elaborate or crazy; more like the nearly subconscious rules people use for personal space but for people's focus.

Edit:

never mind, posted just in time for this to become irrelevant.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
… Wait, is Usum still connected to Molly in a way that lets them communicate via thought? Or at least understand her implicitly enough to pick up on subtext?

I didn't vote for @TonedMite 's plan because stopping to talk to him about it is basically the the direct medical vote with extra steps.

However if we can direct him to step to the side and poke at a screen with a thought or a glance we can satisfy everyone here.


Though to be clear on my opinion here I don't think it'll speed things up.

I'll admit part of my interest isn't totally pure; a cool throne scene sounds amazing and arguing with security doesn't.

That said it's still true that taking the throne immediately turns our request to the next person we talk to into the first order of the god empress' rein. We could talk our way through this situation without that, but that's just pointless complication.

It's also disrespectful to the people here. Calling it mental anguish is a bit much in my opinion, but they still deserve to be taken seriously during an event like this.

Remember that their religion has a specific pillar set on the idea that they'd only properly spring into existence if they were compelling and useful enough to Molly specifically that they'd be chosen among infinite potential alternatives.

It's part of the story they tell themselves about the origin and ordering of their cities, a culture impulse towards seeing living an interesting life as a virtue in itself, and the core prophecy of their faith. It doesn't seem "boring is a sin" level extreme*, but still.

In that context the first act of the god empress being to see the throne of the world and turn away from it to deal with two people she brought from outside would be a particularly strong refutation of their way of life.

If we had to choose between real harm to innocents and being rude clearly we should be rude, but if we don't then we shouldn't. Especially if on the balance being rude isn't reasonably likely to accelerate things.


* I would be surprised if this didn't have a profound impact on their society in all sorts of variably subtle ways.

Stuff like their profanity involving various ways to call people boring, like their version of calling someone a bastard since they probably wouldn't care as much about inheritance law and therefore legitimate parentage given the immorality.

I bet public life and their internet are weird looking too. Everyone hates attention whores, but if the church commands you to be interesting it could encourage that sort of behavior. Seems like the sort of thing that would result in a lot of unspoken social understandings about when and how you're supposed to interact with strangers in public.

Not necessarily anything super elaborate or crazy; more like the nearly subconscious rules people use for personal space but for people's focus.

Edit:

never mind, posted just in time for this to become irrelevant.
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The not quite boring is sin but interesting being a virtue is a very interesting subject though especially since its a part of THE world religion. Well technically there may be a bigger religion in the prisons theoretically though I doubt there are any groups as big as our government in there. Just a fuck ton and possibly even more people down there than on upside.
 
So on the way out we're all interested on getting books on the laws, politics, and history of the realm right? On top of all the primers yog wrote presumably being things handed to us aside from some of the yog theory crafting of our hell for dp and stuff like the fifth path out of our hell being sorcerous working on the effigies of long gone dragon demon things.
 
firefrog600 said:
The not quite boring is sin but interesting being a virtue is a very interesting subject though especially since its a part of THE world religion. Well technically there may be a bigger religion in the prisons theoretically though I doubt there are any groups as big as our government in there. Just a fuck ton and possibly even more people down there than on upside.
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It probably doesn't have a larger population than the top side, if only because the current cap was set to stop things from becoming too ridiculous.

Even if it did technically they still sort of revere Molly. It's just they won't accept her as head warden unless she proves herself via violent struggle. Arguably its closer to the difference between Catholics and Baptists than a different faith altogether.
 
BronzeTongue said:
It probably doesn't have a larger population than the top side, if only because the current cap was set to stop things from becoming too ridiculous.

Even if it did technically they still sort of revere Molly. It's just they won't accept her as head warden unless she proves herself via violent struggle. Arguably its closer to the difference between Catholics and Baptists than a different faith altogether.
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I'd say theres a bigger gap than that in their faith but yeah fair enough.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I mean they agree on all the basic people and concepts involved. Molly, her role in creating the world, and all that. They just react to the situation differently.
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I'm not completely sure even yog said there are likely many different groups in there. Also I'm just saying its a bit more distant a religion than Catholicism and Baptists are. Can you imagine if one of those declared that jesus will come back and we've gotta fight him?
 
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