Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

your still kind of missing the point where it says he doesn't rule hell in canon at least. Also that its a multinational corporation as far as analogies go. Also the fact the dude interpreted it as not a ceo like I know you could technically be right but we should at least assume that they are possibly not wrong right? It also differentiates that Hades is a ceo wheras satan is something else.
All CEOs are officers. Not all officers are CEOs.
Butcher said he was a corporate officer, he didnt say Lucifer wasnt the CEO. And when the Denarians needed juice for their Small Favor plot, they got it from Lucifer.


CEO of a sprawling multinational corporation is still its single most powerful corporate officer.
This just means there are other powerful officers and stakeholders he must take into account, thats all.
Unlike in a small company, where the CEO is essentially god.
I wonder if the crossover does anything with WoD Lucifer.
Who is not ruling Hell, in fact he was the only Fallen not banished to Hell, but instead he has to wander the Earth.
Which is obviously different from the Dresden Devil.

I still like the WoD archetype though, the person who fucked up so often and on such a monumental scale, always with good intentions, might just now after millenia have learned some humility and not follow his latest doomed-to-fail scheme to save humanity. Or he is letting his Pride get the better of himself yet again and fuck up once more.
Thats frankly more likely to be someone like Mac.
Luci is explicitly still in the Game in the Dresdenverse.
 
All CEOs are officers. Not all officers are CEOs.
Butcher said he was a corporate officer, he didnt say Lucifer wasnt the CEO. And when the Denarians needed juice for their Small Favor plot, they got it from Lucifer.


CEO of a sprawling multinational corporation is still its single most powerful corporate officer.
This just means there are other powerful officers and stakeholders he must take into account, thats all.
Unlike in a small company, where the CEO is essentially god.

Thats frankly more likely to be someone like Mac.
Luci is explicitly still in the Game in the Dresdenverse.
Okay but lets be clear he called hades a ceo while butcher said satan is more like an officer. Just cause a ceo is an officer doesn't mean he is one not to even mention he literally said the words more and like. Why the hell would he say that when comparing to a ceo if they weren't just also a ceo? Not to mention if he had asked if satan ruled hell he likely would of just stopped talking at the answer no. So even if he is the ceo hes not like the ruler of hell. Like come on why would he not just say a ceo like hades but for a bigger company if he meant that satan was a ceo? Also why do you insist he rules hell when hes as much said no he doesn't?

Edit: Mabs the ruler of the the winter fae she still needs to take into account those who serve her. Why would satan if he was the ruler be any different even if hes far stronger? But, he isn't the ruler according to butcher which being a ceo almost definitely would entail if it was a ceo of all of hell.
 
Last edited:
Molly is only Resource 4 you need 5 + to do things like buy a residential block and transform it into you personal palace.
Yes, but resource 4 should be PLENTY to buy the flat under Harry's office and move in like the love struck stalker our teenage heart demands we be.

"Please tell me why there is a small god checking intent for everyone walking in?"

"Would you accept security upgrade?"
 
Last edited:
Dude, Malfeas was part of Creation. Yu-Shan was part of Creation. The Underworld was part of Creation.
Our kingdom, being attached to someone who is a part of the Tellurian and lives on this side of the Gates, is a part of Creation.
We may be monarch, we arent god in those borders.
That's factually wrong. Yozi and Primordial world bodies, like Malfeas, and Autochtonia, are not part of Creation, which was, well, a collective creation of Primordials.

I'll have to hunt down quotes, give me a bit.
C.E.O = Chief Executive Officer of a corporation.
Yes, but Butcher used CEO for Hades, and a si ple officer for Satan. Not all corporate officers are CEOs. It's possible that he is, but I amreading this to mean that he's not. Hades is, of his own small business. Biggest fish in a small pond. Satan isn't. Large, but not the largest fish in a huge pond.
 
Okay but lets be clear he called hades a ceo while butcher said satan is more like an officer. Just cause a ceo is an officer doesn't mean he is one not to even mention he literally said the words more and like. Why the hell would he say that when comparing to a ceo if they weren't just also a ceo? Not to mention if he had asked if satan ruled hell he likely would of just stopped talking at the answer no. So even if he is the ceo hes not like the ruler of hell. Like come on why would he not just say a ceo like hades but for a bigger company if he meant that satan was a ceo? Also why do you insist he rules hell when hes as much said no he doesn't?

Edit: Mabs the ruler of the the winter fae she still needs to take into account those who serve her. Why would satan if he was the ruler be any different even if hes far stronger? But, he isn't the ruler according to butcher which being a ceo almost definitely would entail if it was a ceo of all of hell.
He called Hades CEO of a small company. There's a reason for that qualification.
Small company CEOs are usually basically masters of all they survey.
CEOs of multinationals have to negotiate their way past powerful subordinates whose buyin must be sought and who will try to stab them in the back for advantage.

Seriously, you are resting your entire argument on one misreading of a single quote and ignoring all other textev and WoG to the contrary.
That's factually wrong. Yozi and Primordial world bodies, like Malfeas, and Autochtonia, are not part of Creation, which was, well, a collective creation of Primordials.

I'll have to hunt down quotes, give me a bit.

Yes, but Butcher used CEO for Hades, and a si ple officer for Satan. Not all corporate officers are CEOs. It's possible that he is, but I amreading this to mean that he's not. Hades is, of his own small business. Biggest fish in a small pond. Satan isn't. Large, but not the largest fish in a huge pond.
1)Malfeas wasnt part of Creation by design.
It became part of it after the Primordial War, when it was tied to it by the Surrender Oaths and what not. If Exalted Creation died, Malfeas would die too.

Autochthonia is not part of Creation; he isnt tied to it.


2)No, you and Firefrog are mistaken.

Its literally canon that the Fallen in the Coins are the thirty most unruly Fallen that Lucifer got rid of; Anduriel used to be a captain of his, and Chaunzaggaroth calls Lucifer the Dark Prince when talking about Harry's mother.
Dresden himself is pretty explicit that Lucifer runs Hell.

As one of only five named Archangels, and the only one in Hell? He's the largest fish in the pond by a fair amount; there's just other big fish as well in a multinational corporation's pond.
As compared to a small corporation's pond.

If there was someone else in charge, its the sort of thing that would have come up by now. Certainly by Small Favor.
 
Last edited:
Took Enemies Winter off your sheet since you are now in the clear.
Yay!

VOTE
[X][All]: Everything
[X]STUNT: You sink into a cushioned chair beside Lydia with a sigh of relief and kick off your shoes, before beginning to massage speak. "Okay I have good news and unsettling news. Met Mab, met her daughter, resolved our....current dispute." You make a face, then take a pull from your soda can. "Even came out ahead a little." You meet your mother's eyes " Some of this will be public gossip by morning in Faerie, the rest will still be secret. But first, I need to give some background about what Winter does. You see, they are ...."


RATIONALE
Nothing here needs to be secret, and a good part of it will be public knowledge in Faerie by morning.
As long as noone here has loose lips, and noone does as far as I know, we're fine.
Im pretty sure the three people here (Charity, Michael, Lydia) knows what our powers are anyway.

If people like Donald Morgan know and talk about Nemesis, and write about it in their diaries?
We can talk to our parents about it.
 
Dude, Malfeas was part of Creation. Yu-Shan was part of Creation. The Underworld was part of Creation.
Our kingdom, being attached to someone who is a part of the Tellurian and lives on this side of the Gates, is a part of Creation.
We may be monarch, we arent god in those borders.

Malfeas isn't part of Creation. It runs on the various mythos of the Primordials, not the Loom of Fate. Just as Autocthonia isn't part of Creation, or the world-body of Gaia, and neither is the Underworld. Or Zen-Mu, if it still exists.

Yu Shan is arguable.
 
Last edited:
[X][All]: Everything
[X]STUNT: You sink into a cushioned chair beside Lydia with a sigh of relief and kick off your shoes, before beginning to massage speak. "Okay I have good news and unsettling news. Met Mab, met her daughter, resolved our....current dispute." You make a face, then take a pull from your soda can. "Even came out ahead a little." You meet your mother's eyes " Some of this will be public gossip by morning in Faerie, the rest will still be secret. But first, I need to give some background about what Winter does. You see, they are ...."
 
1)Malfeas wasnt part of Creation by design.
It became part of it after the Primordial War, when it was tied to it by the Surrender Oaths and what not. If Exalted Creation died, Malfeas would die too.

Autochthonia is not part of Creation; he isnt tied to it.
This is explicitely wrong. Here, on Malfeas (2E, Compass of Celestial Direcations, volume 5: Malfeas):
The victors then turned the infinite form of Malfeas,
the fallen King of the Primordials, inside out and herded the
other Yozis within, making his very body their prison and
banishing them from Creation for all time.
Thus, the beings that ruled and fought as Primordi-
als surrendered and were imprisoned as Yozis. There
they were to stay forever, alive but unable to return to
Creation
or storm the palaces of Yu-Shan.
When the Incarnae maimed, bound and expelled
the Yozis from Creation, the defeated former Primordi-
als shaped a new world—a prison made from their own
bodies. The world of Malfeas became a place vastly
unlike Creation. Malfeas has no elemental poles to
structure and define its substance. Instead, the bodies
of the Yozis are tangled together in a twisted, knotted
quilt of bizarre environments: here a cityscape of black
stone and brass, there an endless desert; metallic forest
and acidic sea; temples of leathery wings and storms
of liquid dreams.
Most of all, Malfeas lacks the stable structure of
Creation. The Yozis twitch and squirm about each other
in their imprisonment, changing the shape of Hell. Vast
provinces sink beneath Kimbery's waves or split to reveal
new territories. Many regions remain locally stable for
long periods, but any large-scale atlas of Malfeas would
become worthless in a few centuries.
The strangeness of Malfeas goes beyond the geog-
raphy as well. Demons are not mortal creatures; they
do not think quite as mortals do. They live in ways as
alien as their world.
Malfeas is his own world, with his own rules. Rules influenced and controlled by Surrender Oaths, but not the rules of Creation.

Which is the point. Our Kingdom is our Primordial World Body, essentially (or at least that's very heavily implied). Primordial world bodies, like Autochtonia and Malfeas, are not parts of Creation. They are their own things, with their own rules.
Its literally canon that the Fallen in the Coins are the thirty most unruly Fallen that Lucifer got rid of; Anduriel used to be a captain of his, and Chaunzaggaroth calls Lucifer the Dark Prince when talking about Harry's mother.
So? Lucifer can be a department head, no problem. Doesn't mean he's the head honcho of the whole enterprise.
Dresden himself is pretty explicit that Lucifer runs Hell.
Citation please.
 
Malfeas isn't part of Creation. It runs on the various mythos of the Primordials, not the Loom of Fate. Just as Autocthonia isn't part of Creation, or the world-body of Gaia, and neither is the Underworld. Or Zen-Mu, if it still exists.

Yu Shan is arguable.

Yu Shan (or to be exact the Games of Divinity) is the thing Creation was made to power. Creation is the hamster running in his wheel to power the PC to run Primordial Animal Farm on or something so Yu Shan is a made thing, but not specifically Creation which is the mortal and elemental parts.
 
Also running hell just isn't as big a deal when there are at least 10 thousand hells. It like "Lucifer runs hell"

"Which one?"

"You know that fire and brimstone hell."

"Which one?"

"The one in opposition to the white god"

"Not exactly narrowing things down."
 
He called Hades CEO of a small company. There's a reason for that qualification.
Small company CEOs are usually basically masters of all they survey.
CEOs of multinationals have to negotiate their way past powerful subordinates whose buyin must be sought and who will try to stab them in the back for advantage.

Seriously, you are resting your entire argument on one misreading of a single quote and ignoring all other textev and WoG to the contrary.

1)Malfeas wasnt part of Creation by design.
It became part of it after the Primordial War, when it was tied to it by the Surrender Oaths and what not. If Exalted Creation died, Malfeas would die too.

Autochthonia is not part of Creation; he isnt tied to it.


2)No, you and Firefrog are mistaken.

Its literally canon that the Fallen in the Coins are the thirty most unruly Fallen that Lucifer got rid of; Anduriel used to be a captain of his, and Chaunzaggaroth calls Lucifer the Dark Prince when talking about Harry's mother.
Dresden himself is pretty explicit that Lucifer runs Hell.

As one of only five named Archangels, and the only one in Hell? He's the largest fish in the pond by a fair amount; there's just other big fish as well in a multinational corporation's pond.
As compared to a small corporation's pond.

If there was someone else in charge, its the sort of thing that would have come up by now. Certainly by Small Favor.
not sure why your referencing me for the world stuff I don't know enough to comment. Unless you meant the previous stuff.

As for me misreading stuff I mean I'm not it quite literally says he is not the ruler of hell how can that be more clear. I'm sure hes big dicked sure but canon dresden files operates on a multiversal scale when it comes to hell. So while that obviously doesn't apply here we obviously have no idea how much of hell they are in charge of. There could be entire sections that he has basically zero power in depending on how huge it really is. Also i mean and not that this matters here but we've seen holy things that are clearly not christian in dresden files I don't see any reason there couldn't be some eastern like stuff in hell which is at least a peer of satan. Given I'm not sure how much things like God or satan really are western in dresden files so much as those are parts of them that we see.

Also literally nothing I have said has been in direct contradiction of the text here.
 
Also running hell just isn't as big a deal when there are at least 10 thousand hells. It like "Lucifer runs hell"

"Which one?"

"You know that fire and brimstone hell."

"Which one?"

"The one in opposition to the white god"

"Not exactly narrowing things down."
Given this is definitely one of those things changed from canon which is a large part what we are talking about.
 
Given this is definitely one of those things changed from canon which is a large part what we are talking about.
Why is this worth arguing about then? The only thing that we can be certain of it that Lucifer isn't going to be anything like DF canon which isn't really a big deal because I don't recall him ever making a appearance or even being involved in a plot except incredibly tangentially.
 
Last edited:
Why is this worth arguing about them? The only thing that we can be certain of it that Lucifer isn't going to be anything like DF canon which isn't really a big deal because I don't recall him ever making a appearance or even being involved in a plot except incredibly tangentially.
He did power that hellfire circle against Ivy in canon once.
I don't remember that book right now.

The aquarium meeting with the Denarians under the Accords.
 
Why is this worth arguing about them? The only thing that we can be certain of it that Lucifer isn't going to be anything like DF canon which isn't really a big deal because I don't recall him ever making a appearance or even being involved in a plot except incredibly tangentially.
Because someone is wrong on the internet (possibly they could be right about the ceo thing but ruling hell is literally something butcher said they aren't and he would of likely just stopped talking about it if that wasn't the full question.) and I must fight!

More seriously this is a running conversation where I've been responding to things they've said which I disagree with the basis of them since there is not much actual evidence for it.
 
So Lucifer might rule a hell he doesn't seem to have the same restrictions on having influence in the western world*. Seems fairly cut and dry. Although I guess that would imply we should expect him to send some agents after Molly next or not given how the Yomi kings don't share information.


*Which aren't well defined in WOD either and are just a justification for the Jade Court being a eastern expansion.
 
... Should Charity be told about Nemesis? I am unsure if even Michael knows. He knows about Outsiders, yes, but I'm unsure about Nemesis.
 
I can't see how she can help with it, but I also think that we can trust her not to go summoning outsiders.
... Can she protect herself from being possessed? I mean, she's mortal. No magic gift. Epic willpower, yes, but no inherent magic, and no "not involved" protection. No inherent defenses against memetic hazards.
 
So Lucifer might rule a hell he doesn't seem to have the same restrictions on having influence in the western world*. Seems fairly cut and dry. Although I guess that would imply we should expect him to send some agents after Molly next or not given how the Yomi kings don't share information.


*Which aren't well defined in WOD either and are just a justification for the Jade Court being a eastern expansion.
eh few things I doubt this is taken into account in quest at all the word of gods that is. Two in canon as far as I know the christian things we see not all of them are strictly just christian we've seen angelic things which aren't and butchers gone on to say that mortals are only seeing a small part of them through mortal lens. That God hasn't changed the way people see them has. So satan honestly I'm not entirely sure is completely christian or at least they aren't always that way. Given that might only apply to the creator in this case. Though I doubt that names seem really important given even archangels care about them. Third not sure where you got western world stuff and not sure you should really translate wog stuff into weird interpretations of how they would work in the game when thousand hells don't really make much sense at all from a dresden files perspective.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top