Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Answers, she is offering Molly a chance to interrogate someone who might be involved in some kind of plot against her, one of her relatives no less. This is Lara being very accommodating, for what it's worth.
I guess that is a generous offer considering that she doesn't know about the crown. As is we should be able to find out the relivent information just by questioning the scene of the crime (splattercon) and the like.
 
I guess that is a generous offer considering that she doesn't know about the crown. As is we should be able to find out the relivent information just by questioning the scene of the crime (splattercon) and the like.

This makes me think that one of the main reasons she is giving this offer is to create an opportunity for close observation of Molly's information gathering capabilities. Molly has already revealed enough for Lara to guess they are significant and getting a more precise estimate would be of tremendous value to her.
 
Huh, never thought of it before, but what kind of merits could we give Bob using VEE? There's got to be some good stuff he's eligible for, right?
Probably.
Haven't really checked yet. And generally Bob does seem kinda content, so Im not sure what he might want.

You put vastly more importance in "literal divine messanger" than it deserves. A reminder that valkyries are also literal divine messengers Naagloshii's power comes from the ability to steal what they eat, i.e. there's a good reason to believe that most of their fearsome might comes from stolen mortal power (which is likely the cause of their fall in the first place).

Bob knows the secrets of the cocmos to quite possibly the greater degree than naagloshii does, or did initially. It knows the significance of Halloween, the secret to killing Immortals, and I am fairly sure Evil Bob knew how to use Darkhallow. Bob the spirit could make himself equal to Mother Winter and establish his own court using that knowledge - that's how the courts were made, remember? In a ritual similar to darkhallow. Don't underestimate the skull.
WoD Spirits are classified by their metaphysical significance.
A divine messenger, someone who is knowledgeable enough to recognize soul fire, is a lot higher on the scale than a laboratory assistant and record keeper to wizards.


===
Bob worked with wizards. In the Dresdenverse, true naagloshii are spirits who originally worked with either gods or actual angels as a teacher to the Native American tribes before they fell. The idea that Bob knows more is simply not supported by the available evidence.


Even if it was simple magical grunt, the naagloshii is at a minimum demonstrably a Senior Council-level caster of several thousand years experience; the Native American tribes in-universe records of skin walkers around since before the birth of Christ.

Bob is nowhere as powerful or knowledgeable.

The naagloshii invades the Raith Estate and simultaneously beats the shit out of 24 armed troops, three high ranking Whampires and two high-tier wizards of the White Council, and does so without a drop of its own blood being shed.
Bob gets the shit ripped out of him by running into the wards around Marcone's estate.

Even when Evil Bob was ascendant, they simply are not in the same weight class, and Bob has only been working with wizards for around six hundred years, since Etienne the Enchanter made him that skull as a sanctum.


Look at this quest. A naagloshii just took 14 people and physically made them into sorcerers, and you're comparing that to Bob's laboratory assistant thing?
My dude. Thats just a different tier of power and skill beyond anything Bob has shown.

Seriously, consider the different canon reactions to both. Luccio in Small Favor calls Bob an appallingly knowledgeable spirit because of the things he'd learned from wizards and that they(White Council) would have destroyed him because he was dangerous.

By contrast, the official White Council policy is to avoid naagloshii because of just how dangerous they are, and Donald fucking Morgan runs away when he ran into one.
 
COMMENTARY
-I've been assuming that the fetches were uninfected, just taking orders from Maeve who was Nfected.
The theory I have been running with its that the very first attack, the one Nelson was arrested for, was ordered by Mab, to draw Dresden's attention to a situation. But that the rest were ordered by Maeve.

However, if Eldest Fetch was Nemesis-infected, it would help explain some of the things that happened in this AU.
It means that Nemesis was right there when Molly Exalted, and knows some of the things she can do.
It would also explain why certain people *cough* Justine *cough* have been avoiding Molly.

Thats another important piece of the puzzle.
And we can probably use Eldest Fetch's (dead)face as a focus for a Crown question about Winter.


-Yeah, of course Lara found out about Madrigal's games.
If she wasn't able to keep tabs on her Court members, she would have been overthrown ages ago. She might not be willing to spend the political capital to intervene, but thats different from ignorance.


-Lol Lydia.
Both Thomas and Molly keep a pokerface, but she doesnt.
Poor girl has some skilling up to do.


-Interesting use of words with regards to Madrigal.
"Once I catch up with him" suggests he is currently on the run, and confirms that Madeline his sister was deliberately executed by someone. Whether Lara or someone else is unknown.
 
VOTE
[X] Yes, accept her offer



Molly's Urge is Curiosity.
Its going to take a lot to offer her an opportunity to learn more and have her decline it.

And for Lara its win-win.
She gets a closer look at what Molly can do, and she gets a talented magical interrogator to take a look at someone she has suspicions about. For free.
 
Crown foci.

[X] Yes, accept her offer

I am feeling lost, to be honest. Who are we going after? Who are all these people? Can someone give me a quick recap please?
Eldest Fetch was the fae who led the snatch squad on Molly in Proven Guilty.
Molly stabbed him to death at the beginning of this quest.
First person she killed.

Madrigal Raith is Madeline Raith's brother, and is Thomas and Lara's cousin. He's a horror movie director.
He and his assistant attacked Dresden in Proven Guilty for clout, and were auctioning him off on Ebay to the Red Court; bidding got up to $5 million before Thomas and Mouse intervened.

In White Night he is one of the three White Court vampires to lead a murder campaign against lesser talents as part of a ploy to arrange a coup attempt against Lara, and he leads another attack against Dresden with ghouls.
Essentially, he's one of the people we know responsible for the deaths of Cauldron members in canon.

He's also a Black Council affiliate, though its his buddy Vittorio Malvora who actually knows people.

Dresden and Carlos Ramirez formally challenge him in front of other White Court nobility to a formal duel in the Raith Deeps, and kill him.
It was after he was killed that the uberghouls attack the White Court.

Slim, handsome, dark-haired and pale, Madrigal Raith is the fraternal twin of Madeline Raith, and a cousin of Lara and Thomas Raith. Madrigal has had contact with House Malvora, and like them started to feed on fear instead of lust.

Proven Guilty
In Proven Guilty, using his identity as Darby Crane, he works as a producer and director of horror movies; a named work of his is the film Harvest. He attended the horror convention SplatterCon!!! as a guest of honor. He kidnapped Harry Dresden and Detective Henry Rawlins with him. He shot Rawlins in the foot while chained to a wall and used thorn manacles on Dresden, and attempted to sell him on eBay to Dresden's enemies. The highest bidder was Arianna Ortega.

White Night
In White Night, in a bid to take control of the White Court from House Raith, Raith teams with Vittorio Malvora in a plot to undermine the White Council by killing women practitioners and thinning, or culling, their numbers. He makes a mistake in killing one of the women, Jessica Blanche, via House Raith methods (lust), thereby drawing Dresden's attention to the possibility of more than one killer. Raith dies in a duel with Dresden and Carlos Ramirez.

Wild Card
In "Wild Card", his relation with Vittorio Malvora is mentioned as exposing Lara Raith's weak position in the White Court at the time.


Lt Greene is the guy who got murdered and dismembered.
This is his canon characterization(in canon he's a Detective Sergeant in Homicide):
Of average height, he is in his late forties, thirty pounds overweight, balding, and with watery blue eyes. He is also described as probably the best detective in the state. Karrin Murphy says that "if he had a personality, he'd have made captain by now".


Proven Guilty
In Proven Guilty, Detective Greene questions Harry Dresden for over an hour about the incident at SplatterCon!!!. Detective Karrin Murphy interrupts, stopping the interview.

Later, Detective Greene holds Molly Carpenter under a private grilling, assisted by Rick, Karrin Murphy's ex-husband and current brother-in-law. Harry Dresden has Sandra Marling call Molly's parents. Then he asks Lydia Stern, a reporter for the Midwestern Arcane, to stand outside the door and just "be herself". Dresden stops the interview on the grounds that Molly is a juvenile, that Greene does not have parental consent, he has no evidence and no subpoena and Molly is not under arrest. Greene blusters about Dresden not having any evidence. Lydia Stern walks in with a tape recorder and a registration of the whole conversation and a lot of demanding questions. He accuses Dresden of blackmail, and Dresden calls it "due process", that it was Greene who was trying to run around the law.
 
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Bob is nowhere as powerful or knowledgeable.
Powerful I will probably grant you, though Evil Bob did almost take Dresden if wiki isn't lying to me. But knowledgeable is very arguable. As I said, within Bob's skull is knowledge enough to kill gods, create a new fae court and probably more.
I don't really want to do that in front of Lara. It does make sense to use NWS though.
Crown is generally not very detectable, and we can at least get recordings (like, Clippy should be always recording at least voices in general vicinity, and we could use said voice recordings as foci) as foci.
Eldest Fetch was the fae who led the snatch squad on Molly in Proven Guilty.
Molly stabbed him to death at the beginning of this quest.
First person she killed.

Madrigal Raith is Madeline Raith's brother, and is Thomas and Lara's cousin. He's a horror movie director.
He and his assistant attacked Dresden in Proven Guilty for clout, and were auctioning him off on Ebay to the Red Court; bidding got up to $5 million before Thomas and Mouse intervened.

In White Night he is one of the three White Court vampires to lead a murder campaign against lesser talents as part of a ploy to arrange a coup attempt against Lara, and he leads another attack against Dresden with ghouls.
Essentially, he's one of the people we know responsible for the deaths of Cauldron members in canon.

He's also a Black Council affiliate, though its his buddy Vittorio Malvora who actually knows people.

Dresden and Carlos Ramirez formally challenge him in front of other White Court nobility to a formal duel in the Raith Deeps, and kill him.
It was after he was killed that the uberghouls attack the White Court.




Lt Greene is the guy who got murdered and dismembered.
This is his canon characterization:
Thanks. I knew all of those except Madeline and Madrigal. So, we can surmise that Black Council (or at least forces associated with them, or at least forces associated with outsiders) were involved in our initial kidnapping (if I recall correctly, canonically this might have been a ploy by Mab). Maybe as a ploy to get someone infected into a Knight of the Cross's vicinity? We can safely assume that "the kidnapped victim breaks out with an Infernal Exaltation on her brow" was not the initial plan (unless, like, there's a hidden Maiden behind a curtain, and/or some of the First Age beings really are back and are retroactively messing with causality). Harry was involved in our rescue.

The presence of the naagloshii doesn't seem to be directly connected to the nazi plot, and was mostly incidental there. An attempt to study us in combat against something close to a peer opponent (Katrina had perfect effects, and was a divine spirit and a seer and a sorceress with near a thousand years of experience)? That's why Harry was attempted to be removed from equation. The naagloshii seems to be mostly here because of White Court.
 
If the Eldest Fetch infected I don't see why the other are not also infected unless he was infected the same day he died.
The inconsistency on nemesis infection has always been weird. Like why Thomas's girlfriend and not Thomas himself.

I just generally assume that there are unclear rules restricting it. Maybe you can only infect people during the full moon or in a place of desolation or the person you are infecting has to say a certain word unprompted or really anything that makes it so they can't just infect anyone at will.
 
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The inconsistency on nemesis infection has always been weird. Like why Thomas's girlfriend and not Thomas himself.

I just generally assume that there are unclear rules restricting it. Maybe you can only infect people during the full moon or in a place of desolation or the person you are infecting has to say a certain word unprompted or really anything that makes it so they can't just infect anyone at will.
I think it has to do with free will somehow. Leanansidhe despite being infected was able to retain enough control to submit for cleansing. It obviously can sneak on you, but there's probably some manner of rules-lawyered meaningless free will clause in it all.
 
I think there's a Word of QM somewhere that Nemesis can only have so many infected at once. That there's a limit to their ability to multitask with control. If that's the case, then it makes sense that Nemesis restricts themselves to only the most high-value targets instead of wasting "slots" on rank-and-file that are already indirectly controlled by other means.
 
Powerful I will probably grant you, though Evil Bob did almost take Dresden if wiki isn't lying to me. But knowledgeable is very arguable. As I said, within Bob's skull is knowledge enough to kill gods, create a new fae court and probably more.
Evil Bob almost took Dresden in Dead Beat because Dresden wasn't expecting it to be hostile. And in Ghost Story Ghost!Dresden was much less powerful than his normal alive state. Bob is a mini-Archive in a setting where knowledge is power; he's surprisingly powerful, but not powerful on the scale of the bosses like true naagloshii.


The naagloshii is explicitly thousands of years old.

Bob's recorded history is less than a thousand years; by his own tale in this AU, he wasn't there/alive for Mab's ascension, which hard caps his age, and we know canonically that the skull he inhabits was made around six hundred years ago. That gives you an age range between six hundred and a thousand.

Sigrun Gard is older than he is.



Yes? That's all information relevant to wizards.
Its not exactly news to spirits and Fae that Halloween is when true immortals are vulnerable, or that ascension rituals like the Darkhallow are a thing.

Literally an ascension ritual by a spirit was the plot of the Dresdenverse comic Welcome to the Jungle.
And Mikaboshi became a Yama King and created his own Hell much the same way; he was originally human.

Wizards, especially young wizards, have a tendency to assume that a lot of things that are new to them are necessarily new to everyone else, instead of just being things not discussed in polite company, or that is restricted until you are a level of power or need.

Its like Dresden finally telling the Mothers about Nemesis, and their reaction being "Oh, so you FINALLY saw what was in front of your nose this whole time?"

Thanks. I knew all of those except Madeline and Madrigal. So, we can surmise that Black Council (or at least forces associated with them, or at least forces associated with outsiders) were involved in our initial kidnapping (if I recall correctly, canonically this might have been a ploy by Mab). Maybe as a ploy to get someone infected into a Knight of the Cross's vicinity? We can safely assume that "the kidnapped victim breaks out with an Infernal Exaltation on her brow" was not the initial plan (unless, like, there's a hidden Maiden behind a curtain, and/or some of the First Age beings really are back and are retroactively messing with causality). Harry was involved in our rescue.

The presence of the naagloshii doesn't seem to be directly connected to the nazi plot, and was mostly incidental there. An attempt to study us in combat against something close to a peer opponent (Katrina had perfect effects, and was a divine spirit and a seer and a sorceress with near a thousand years of experience)? That's why Harry was attempted to be removed from equation. The naagloshii seems to be mostly here because of White Court.
It confirms that Nemesis was involved in our initial kidnapping.
I always thought that it was more they were following orders from Infected Maeve, but if Eldest Fetch was also Nfested, thats a more direct connection.

Either way, we were a convenient target, because Infected!Maeve's plot is aimed at convincing Summer Lady Lily that Maeve was on the up and up, and Mab is the one who is crazy/Nfested.
Which yielded fruit several years later when Maeve convinces Lily to help her attack Demonreach.

So part of the reasoning is Molly = Dresden = Lily.
Mab had her own aims, but we dont know what that is.


Whoever arranged the naagloshii's presence would have been planning for it for months if not years before our Exaltation. So the naagloshii being here isn't linked to us.
White Court plot by the Black Council. Not the only time they do it in canon; they do it in White Night and Turn Coat.

If the Eldest Fetch infected I don't see why the other are not also infected unless he was infected the same day he died.
The inconsistency on nemesis infection has always been weird. Like why Thomas's girlfriend and not Thomas himself.

I just generally assume that there are unclear rules restricting it. Maybe you can only infect people during the full moon or in a place of desolation or the person you are infecting has to say a certain word unprompted or really anything that makes it so they can't just infect anyone at will.
Because Nemesis has limits on how many people it can infect at the same time, and so it has to pick and choose.
And I think human rules about free will probably apply to Nemesis as well.
 
At this point you are way overhyping naglooshi. Its not going to live up to it and thats going to disappoint. If it was that strong it would have a much bigger impact on the world or be the king of supernatural America or something impressive.
 
At this point you are way overhyping naglooshi. Its not going to live up to it and thats going to disappoint. If it was that strong it would have a much bigger impact on the world or be the king of supernatural America or something impressive.

If it tried that odds are good it would get a Sword to the face at a minimum, beings as tainted as it is even when very powerful tend to acquire enemies as fast or faster than they do followers and not many people in 'Supernatural America' would like its leadership even assuming it wanted to take on something this broad
 
Time travel is possible in Dresden Files and this enable certain non-linear planning capabilities. I find that unlikely, but possible.
Possible, yes.
But the only demonstrated example so far in canon that I recall is the construction of Demonreach, which was allegedly constructed in multiple times.

I suspect its neither easy nor risk free.

EDIT
The attack on Demonreach in Cold Days was also supposed to involve an attack across time.
They never really did explain how that worked properly.
At this point you are way overhyping naglooshi. Its not going to live up to it and thats going to disappoint. If it was that strong it would have a much bigger impact on the world or be the king of supernatural America or something impressive.
The only dead naagloshii mentioned in canon required a nuclear weapon to kill it, and even then we cant be sure that its dead because nobody confirmed a body.
Believe the hype.

Its limited to a geographic area specifically to avoid it doing any of those things. Power loss the longer it stays away.
And there are banishment rituals for naagloshii specifically taught to Native American shaman of the proper ancestry.
Not to mention that naagloshii are nowhere near the top of the food chain.

Its the exact same issue for elder Black Court vampires; terrifyingly powerful, but if you attract too much of the wrong sort of attention *draws finger across throat*


Drakul is supposed to be a peer of Mab, and he's constantly on the move.
Ebenezar can murder nationstates and he lives on a farm and drives a 1930s pickup truck.
The Archive lives alone except for Kincaid her driver and bodyguard. The Mothers live in a cottage.

Possessing power does not require that you exert it obviously on the world.
Especially since there are other factions also in play.
 
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