Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[firefrog600]

Molly would have to be dead by the time it would even have the option to try to ear the titan-killing super-weapon strapped to her soul.

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I'm more talking about our corpse not the titan-killing super weapon and the whole point of this question is theoretical cause its nice to know what'd happen. sorta curious if they cycle through stuff they eat regardless if they want to or not.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm more talking about our corpse not the titan-killing super weapon and the whole point of this question is theoretical cause its nice to know what'd happen. sorta curious if they cycle through stuff they eat regardless if they want to or not.

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Exaltation are designed to part at the moment of death, the Skinwalker would have to actively try to catch it in order to attempt to devour it with the results mentioned above.

 

[firefrog600]

Exaltation are designed to part at the moment of death, the Skinwalker would have to actively try to catch it in order to attempt to devour it with the results mentioned above.

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I know I'm just talking about our corpse and the energies suffused in it. That or just our body in general like a severed limb of ours could probably be used for something I'd hazard.

 

[DragonParadox]

I know I'm just talking about our corpse and the energies suffused in it. That or just our body in general like a severed limb of ours could probably be used for something I'd hazard.

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If it eats your body it gets the non-exaltation parts of your knowledge.

 

[Alratan]

Just going back a step, in canon by Word of Jim (Butcher), Molly's kidnapping was something Mab ordered to advance her own agenda.

 

[firefrog600]

If it eats your body it gets the non-exaltation parts of your knowledge.

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oh it wouldn't explode? I figured our body is suffused with enough stuff it might still explode.

Just going back a step, in canon by Word of Jim (Butcher), Molly's kidnapping was something Mab ordered to advance her own agenda.

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offhand can I have the quote for that not really doubting you I just want the context. If ya can't its fine.

 

[DragonParadox]

Just going back a step, in canon by Word of Jim (Butcher), Molly's kidnapping was something Mab ordered to advance her own agenda.

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Keep in mind what Lara is telling you is the result of her own sources whatever they might be, if you want more solid info... well you can just confront Mab with it when you meet her.

 

[uju32]

Since you guys did roll pretty decently to learn more about naaagloshii I will say this much, they do not just seem to eat people for power but also for knowledge, insight into their victims, magical and mundane which they can later put to use.

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Seems reasonable.
The whole "they eat people for power" is from wizards, not authorial fiat. Its entirely possible the wizards are wrong, or misinterpreting the evidence or the mechanics.

Not like a naagloshii is ever gonna sit down for an interview and medical exam

---

While absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, you can't argue that they have restrictions if we never saw any.

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They do have restrictions.
We know they do because the naagloshii says so, explicitly. So does Listens to Wind. I quote:

Spoiler: Turn Coat c45

Lightning flashed overhead with no accompanying rumble of thunder. It cast a harsh, eerily silent glare down on the skinwalker. Listens-to-Wind turned his face up to the skies and cocked his head slightly. "Father says you are ugly," he reported. He narrowed his eyes and straightened his shoulders, facing the naagloshii squarely as thunder rolled over the island, lending a monstrous growling undertone to the old man's voice. "I give you this chance. Leave. Now."
The skinwalker snarled. "Old spirit caller. The failed guardian of a dead people. I do not fear you."
"Maybe you should," Listens-to-Wind said. "The boy almost took you, and he doesn't even know the Diné, much less the Old Ways. Begone. Last chance."
The naagloshii let out a warbling growl as its body changed, thickening, growing physically thicker, more powerful-looking. "You are not a holy man. You do not follow the Blessing Way. You have no power over me."
"Don't plan to bind or banish you, old ghost," Injun Joe said. "Just gonna kick your ass up between your ears." He clenched his hands into fists and said, "Let's go."

The naagloshii just said that holy men, and those who follow the Blessing Way, whatever that is, have power over him. And thats in addition to the fact that we know they weaken the longer they spend away from their territory.

---

At least in this quest we know the following:

Regarding weakening and drawing on power:

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Note the qualifier "As far as we know."
What we know is at second and third hand via Harry iirc. No guarantee that the people who gave him info are accurate, or didn't misinterpret something.

Regarding drawing on power, its own native power and being a leyline:

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Inside its territory it can draw on the power of the land freely. That's pretty much tapping leylines / bonding to Dragon Nests, though I'll agree that this isn't spelled out. And its own native power when it isn't drawing on the land and trying to be stealthy is shapeshifting.

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No it isn't.

Wizards, mortals draw on the land to cast magic as well; they can use internal power, or burn their own life-force, but the vast bulk of the power they wield comes from the outside, whether from the environment, or from more exotic sources like Hellfire.

Magic is a field that you find across the land.

This was a key plot point in Small Favor, when the Denarians trapped the Archive inside a big magic circle they used as a Faraday cage that prevented her from drawing power from the rest of the world, with only what was available for her to use.Which was the only way they were able to catch her without all getting slaughtered.

Dresden explicitly addresses this with an explanation about how he understands magic to work as of that point in time:

Spoiler: Small Favor c30

But more important, once that pentagram came up-and it was coming now; I could feel it, a faint stirring of power that slid along the edges of my wizard's senses like some huge and hungry snake passing by in the darkness-it was going to shut the building off from the rest of the world, magically speaking. That meant that I wasn't going to be able to draw in any power to use to defend myself, any more than I'd be able to breathe if someone plunged my head underwater.

Usually, when you work a spell, you reach out into the environment around you and pull in energy. It flows in from everywhere, from the fabric of life in the whole planet. You don't create a "hole" in the field of energy we call "magic." It all pours in together, levels out instantly, all across the world. But the circle about to go up was going to change that. The relatively tiny area inside the Shedd would contain only so much energy.

Granted, it would be a fairly rich spot-there was a lot of life in the building, and it had hosted a lot of visitors generating a lot of emotions, especially the energy given off by all those children. But even so, it was a sealed box, and given the number of people present who knew how to use magic, the local supply wasn't going to last long.

Try to imagine a knife fight in an airtight phone booth-lots of heavy breathing and exertion, but not for long.
One way or the other, not for long.
That was their plan, of course. Without magic to draw upon, I was pretty much just a scrappy guy with a gun, whereas Nicodemus was still a nigh-invincible engine of destruction.

For a few seconds my steps slowed.
Put that way, it almost sounded a little crazy of me to be rushing into this. I mean, I was basically opting for a cage match with a collection of demons, and one that I would have to win within a matter of seconds or not at all-and I hadn't been all that impressive against the Denarians when I'd had relatively few constraints on what power I could wield against them.

I did some mental math. If the symbol the Denarians were using was approximately the same size as the one at Marcone's place, it would be big enough to encompass only the Oceanarium itself in the pentagram at its center. Murphy and the others, if they'd stayed where we'd come in, would probably be safe. More to the point, if they'd stayed where they were, they would have no way to enter the Oceanarium.

That meant it would be just me and Ivy and maybe Kincaid-against Nicodemus, Tessa, and every Denarian they could beg, borrow or steal. Those were long odds. Really, really long odds. Ridiculously long odds, really. When you have to measure them in astronomical units, it probably isn't a good bet.
So, going in there would be bad.

If I didn't go in, though, it would be just Ivy and Kincaid against all of them. In a deadly business, Kincaid was one of the deadliest, at the top of the field for centuries-but there was only one of him. Ivy had vast knowledge to draw upon, of course, but once she'd been cut off and expended whatever magic she had immediately available to her, the only thing she'd be able to do with all that knowledge would be to calculate her worsening odds of escape.

Every hair on my body tried to stand up all at the same time, and I knew that the symbol was being energized. In seconds it would howl to life.
I guess in the end it came down to a single question: whether or not I was the kind of man who walks away when he knows a little kid is in danger.
I'd been down this road before: Not going in there would be worse.
Heat shimmers filled the air in the hall in front of me as I sprinted toward the Oceanarium.

Fight smarter, not harder, Harry. I drew in power on the way-a lot of power. If there wasn't going to be any magic available for the taking once the symbol went up, I'd just have to bring my own.
Usually I draw in power only when it's ready to flow directly out of me again, channeling the energy through my mind and into the structure of a spell. This time I brought it in without ever letting it out, and it built up as a pressure behind my eyes. My body temperature jumped by at least four or five degrees, and my muscles and bones screamed with sudden pain while my vision went red and flickered with spots of black. Static electricity crackled with every single motion of my limbs, bright green and painfully sharp, until it sounded like I was running across a field of bubble wrap. My head pounded like every New Year's hangover I'd ever had, all in the same spot, and my lungs felt like the air had turned to acid. I concentrated on keeping my feet underneath me and moving. One step at a time.

I pounded through the entry to the Oceanarium, felt a shivering sensation as I ran right through a veil I had not sensed was there, and all but barreled into a demonic figure crouched down on the floor. I skidded to a stop, and there was an instant of surprise as we stared at each other.

So when they say a naagloshii draws power from the land?
Dont assume they mean it draws power from the leylines and nodes/dragon nests. There may very well be no nodes or leylines in the patch of territory it has claim to.

If they meant to say leyline or dragon nest, they'd be specific about it.

---

In this quest they seem to steal power, though that's Molly's knowledge:

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The QM addressed this just before your post.

And valkyiries. Don't forget valkyiries, who have, depending on interpretation, a more broad one.

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Valkyries have divination/death sight for people at risk of death.
They also have a limited intellectus of the deeds of the honored dead, according to Gard;

Gard's eyes flashed. "She died slaying a Jotun," she said roughly. "She did it to protect you. And she got results. She died a warrior's death. One without personal glory. The one that happened because she was doing what was necessary."
I tilted my head at her.
She waved a hand vaguely at her temple. "It's a limited intellectus, of the honored dead, of their deeds. I know who she was now, Dresden. Don't you dare cheapen her death by suggesting it was less than the culmination of a life of habitual valor."

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Note the now; she didn't know before Murphy died, and only knows of her deeds that qualify her as honored dead. Whether the honored dead refers specifically to the Einherjar, or to more, isn't said.

She's in Odin's retinue, and Odin bends a lot of the rules of the Dresdenverse.
So I cant honestly say.

It would not be able to eat the Exaltation that much is clear. Odds are good it would have the sense not to try, contending itself with just the mortal bits, but if it did and somehow managed to envelop it the spirit would explode because it just tried to eat an energy field considerably larger than its head

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Molly would have to be dead by the time it would even have the option to try to ear the titan-killing super-weapon strapped to her soul.

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If Molly had bought the shaping defense charm, it probably wouldn't work anyway.

 

[Artemis1992]

If Molly had bought the shaping defense charm, it probably wouldn't work anyway.

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I assume that would stop working with her death.

The Exaltations don't keep the active charms after all, every new host has to develop most of them from the start.

 

[uju32]

I assume that would stop working with her death.
The Exaltations don't keep the active charms after all, every new host has to develop most of them from the start.

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I assume the soul is gone by the time the protection drops.
Because if it didn't last that long, the Primordials would have had a whole murderer's row of dead Solars' souls writhing in torture chambers by the time of their defeat at the end of the Primordial War.

If Malfeas and company couldn't do it, I doubt a naagloshii can.

 

[Alratan]

offhand can I have the quote for that not really doubting you I just want the context. If ya can't its fine.

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Here:

See above regarding "the question is *why*?"

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it? Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs. If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two–nothing, to a being thousands of years old.​

I assume the soul is gone by the time the protection drops.
Because if it didn't last that long, the Primordials would have had a whole murderer's row of dead Solars' souls writhing in torture chambers by the time of their defeat at the end of the Primordial War.

If Malfeas and company couldn't do it, I doubt a naagloshii can.

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Maybe they did - how would we know otherwise?

 

[uju32]

Here:

See above regarding "the question is *why*?"

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it? Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs. If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two–nothing, to a being thousands of years old.

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Molly brought in when? Is that statement literal or figurative?

Was that when she involved Molly by having her boyfriend arrested? Or is he saying that Mab sent the fetches?
Because I am not even sure that statement is saying that Mab ordered the fetches to have Molly brought in; Butcher appears to be deliberately avoiding providing a straight answer there.

The thing is that Butcher hasn't answered all of the questions raised in Proven Guilty.
Thats one of them.

Maybe they did - how would we know otherwise?

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Because that sort of thing would be a plot point. And a major one.
Take a look at the sort of thing First Age Solars did to people who annoyed them, and consider precisely what they would have done to Second or Third Circles who kept Solar souls for torture and then lost the war.

 

[DragonParadox]

Because that sort of thing would be a plot point. And a major one.
Take a look at the sort of thing First Age Solars did to people who annoyed them, and consider precisely what they would have done to Second or Third Circles who kept Solar souls for torture and then lost the war.

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Unless the victorious Exalts recovered the souls as part of the Surrender of the surviving primordials, which seems like a pretty good bet if any previous Exalt souls were so held

 

[Yog]

They do have restrictions.
We know they do because the naagloshii says so, explicitly. So does Listens to Wind. I quote:
Lightning flashed overhead with no accompanying rumble of thunder. It cast a harsh, eerily silent glare down on the skinwalker. Listens-to-Wind turned his face up to the skies and cocked his head slightly. "Father says you are ugly," he reported. He narrowed his eyes and straightened his shoulders, facing the naagloshii squarely as thunder rolled over the island, lending a monstrous growling undertone to the old man's voice. "I give you this chance. Leave. Now."
The skinwalker snarled. "Old spirit caller. The failed guardian of a dead people. I do not fear you."
"Maybe you should," Listens-to-Wind said. "The boy almost took you, and he doesn't even know the Diné, much less the Old Ways. Begone. Last chance."
The naagloshii let out a warbling growl as its body changed, thickening, growing physically thicker, more powerful-looking. "You are not a holy man. You do not follow the Blessing Way. You have no power over me."
"Don't plan to bind or banish you, old ghost," Injun Joe said. "Just gonna kick your ass up between your ears." He clenched his hands into fists and said, "Let's go." The naagloshii just said that holy men, and those who follow the Blessing Way, whatever that is, have power over him. And thats in addition to the fact that we know they weaken the longer they spend away from their territory.

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They have weaknesses due to ancient pacts they are still part of. That's not the same as restrictions. This has everything to do with naagloshiis history, and nothing to do with their power level. If Za-Lord's Guard swore a formal oath to follow the commands of Dresden's bloodlines, they wouldn't suddenly become more powerful. This is pretty equivalent to that.

Note the qualifier "As far as we know."
What we know is at second and third hand via Harry iirc. No guarantee that the people who gave him info are accurate, or didn't misinterpret something.

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The best we can agree on then is that we don't know one way or another.

Valkyries have divination/death sight for people at risk of death.
They also have a limited intellectus of the deeds of the honored dead, according to Gard;
Note the now; she didn't know before Murphy died, and only knows of her deeds that qualify her as honored dead. Whether the honored dead refers specifically to the Einherjar, or to more, isn't said.

She's in Odin's retinue, and Odin bends a lot of the rules of the Dresdenverse.
So I cant honestly say.

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Limited Intellectus is pretty much all types of Intellectus that's not stuff like Uriel's. Naagloshii has limited intellectus for the torture topic. And you invented "only knows of her deeds that qualify her as honored dead". Gard says she knows Murphy's life now. You are extrapolating pretty strongly from that in order to minimize her ability.

Also, don't forget the death sight / Fate perception, which is a very powerful ability on its own.

 

[Yog]

So, since we pretty much nailed down Molly's essence progression, I wanted to look at Lydia and put this up for discussion.

Spoiler: Thoughts on Lydia's essence progression

Lydia can spend this much XP to spend:

Attributes:
At chargen Lydia had the following:
4 dots (16 XP to 5 dots): Intelligence, Wits; 2 attributes = 2* 16 XP = 32 XP
3 dots (12 + 16 = 28 XP to 5 dots): Dexterity, Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance; 4 attributes = 4* 28 = 112 XP
2 dots (8 + 12 + 18 = 36 XP to 5 dots): Strength, Stamina, Perception; 3 attributes = 3*36 = 108 XP
Total 252 XP

Abilities:
At chargen Lydia had the following:
3 dots (6+8 = 14 XP): Brawl, Empathy, Academics; 3 abilities = 14 * 3 = 42 XP
2 dots (4+6+8 = 18 XP): Athletics, Animal Ken, Etiquette, Investigation; 4 abilities = 4*18 XP = 72 XP
1 dot (2+4+6+8 = 20 XP) : Alertness, Awareness, Expression, Intimidation, Subterfuge, Stealth, Finance, Occult, Politics, Science, Technology; 11 abilities = 11 * 20 XP = 220 XP
0 dots (3+2+4+6+8 = 23 XP): Leadership, Streetwise, Crafts, Drive, Firearms, Larceny, Melee, Performance, Survival, Computer, Law, Medicine; 12 abilities = 12 * 23 XP = 276 XP
Total 610 XP

Willpower from 6 to 10 = 5+6+7+8+9=35 XP

Charms (she's buying them at 3 XP * dot rating cost, and I'll substract what she had at chargen):
6 excellencies = 3*6 = 18 XP - her excellencies apply to her attributes, rather than her abilities.
10 1 dot charms = 10*3 = 30 XP - 1 charm at chargen = 27 XP
11 2 dot charms = 11 * (3*2) = 66 XP - 3 charms at chargen = 48 XP
8 3 dot charms = 8 * (3*3) = 72 XP - 1 charm at chargen = 63 XP
6 4 dot charms = 6 * (4*3) = 72 XP
4 5 dot charms = 4 * (5*3) = 60 XP

Total charm XP to spend 288

Prayer eating (I am honestly unsure at what rate Lydia would buy that; ExvsWod says only Infernals are attuned to prayers, but she's a demigod heir of a god, and that seems so very in theme for her): 30 or 45 XP. To be on the safe side, let's say 45 XP

Total total: 1230 XP

There's also stuff like familiars (which is clearly integral to Lydia's character design) and paths, but I'll leave them out. I'm also leaving out Ancient Sorcery, as I am unsure if Lydia, as a terrestrial-tier exigent of a being who wasn't alive during First Age, has access to it. For comparison Molly had 2378 XP to spend.

If we directly scale essence progression by 1230/2378, Lydia's Essence progress chart would be
E3: 48 XP
E4: 112 XP
E5: 239 XP
E6/Elder: 493 XP

Currently on average Lydia got ~8 XP per arc (8 after arc 3, 6 after arc 4, 8 after arc 5, and 9 after arc 6) to the total of 31 XP so far. If the trend continues, she'll hit E3 after two more arcs (i.e. around christmas time, which seems kinda appropriate in a way, I guess? Winter solstice would probably have some connection to death).

Strategy-wise, it seems to be that the best bet for Lydia would be to leave abilities as the last thing to buy. Invest in Willpower, buy the remaining excellencies (it's feasible for her), and raise all attributes to 5, starting with those she has excellencies for, intermixing charms in between. She'll be able to coast on rolling pure attributes pretty well, and using her near-celestial tier excellency for bursts of power. She'll be able to hit Elder essence (assuming the provided scaling) without putting a single point into abilities, which could be an interesting type of build, I guess. Supreme talent and ability, with effortless excellence, but not much dedication to specific areas. A "technical debt" kind of build, where you grow as powerful as possible, and then, with your very existence secured, go back and do formal education.

 

[Artemis1992]

I assume the soul is gone by the time the protection drops.
Because if it didn't last that long, the Primordials would have had a whole murderer's row of dead Solars' souls writhing in torture chambers by the time of their defeat at the end of the Primordial War.

If Malfeas and company couldn't do it, I doubt a naagloshii can.

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Primordials are not exactly capable of capturing souls?
They can fuck up spirits and such, but they never cared to do anything with mortal souls beyond building Lethe and the reincarnation-system to handle them.

There's just no living, non-Neverborn Primordial who really has capturing souls in their purview. Autochton might come closest I guess?

 

[Alratan]

Molly brought in when? Is that statement literal or figurative?

Was that when she involved Molly by having her boyfriend arrested? Or is he saying that Mab sent the fetches?
Because I am not even sure that statement is saying that Mab ordered the fetches to have Molly brought in; Butcher appears to be deliberately avoiding providing a straight answer there.

The thing is that Butcher hasn't answered all of the questions raised in Proven Guilty.
Thats one of them.

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From the context, brought to Arctis Tor, as he goes right on to talk about Mab not caring about the lives of her subjects who died there.

It's direct confirmation that Mab ordered Molly's kidnapping.

 

[firefrog600]

hmm if thats the essence requirements I could see us getting essence 5 in like I don't know three years maybe more. Cool. Well unless exp gathering majorly slows down which yeah it could. Essence 6 not sure I ever see us getting lol just too much exp and stuff will probably get harder to gather would just take too many in real life years. Given us getting there is basically us breaking the game a bit and going beyond the normal limits and essentially ascending.

 

[Yog]

I wanted to return to Daniel and empowering him so he could compliment Lydia and us and go on adventures with us.

So, we have the following things we can help him with:

Spoiler: Training plan

1) Teaching him "normally". We taught Rosie to 1 dot in her path in 2 months. Fairly sure Daniel would be learning faster - his talent is likely stronger, and we can employ more tricks to teach him, like doing the teaching in a frozen place of desolation (teaching someone to shapeshift into a furry animal might count to trigger TLF for protecting against environment? If not, we could still use CCC).

2) Our training charm. One or two used of the training charm should be ok (that's "despise one concept of Exalt's choosing", which can be easily steered towards stuff like "genocide", "outsiders" or "the end of the world", and "only speak the selection of languages of exalt's choosing, while automatically learning the primary language in that group", which can also be gamed to be non-restrictive). That's 50 XP that can be spent on physical attributes, brawl, melee and occult. If we are going with shapeshifting as the path for him (for synergy described below), that uses Stamina + Ability for rolls, and the ability is almost certainly going to be occult. Assuming he has Stamina 3 (reasonable, he's a well fit healthy young male of a bloodline of power), it would take 28 XP to get him to stamina 5, which leaves 22 XP. He has Occult 2 right now, if I recall correctly, so that's 4+6+8=18 XP, leaving 4 more for either Brawl 3 (if he has Brawl 2), or Brawl 2 and Alertness 2.

3) Lydia's Companions of the Hunter charm. It grants an animal, or a shapeshifter in an animal form 30 XP, and Essence + 5 points to spend on Special Advantages From Gods and Monsters sourcebook. In order to benefit from this, Daniel has to be able to shift into an animal. Now, normally this means shapeshifting path at 4 dots, but normal shapeshifting path means you can shapeshift into whatever animal you want. For a fixed transformation, like Alphas do, I am fairly sure that 1 or 2 dots in a shapeshifter-like path would do. 30 XP could be spent for Dex 5 (dexterity being the godstat, as I understand it), or Brawl 5.

Assuming that Lydia uses the charm at E3, there'll be 8 points to spend on special advantages. In order to increase Daniel's safety and allow him to essentially tank (and cosplay a garou), I think the best combination of advantages to buy would be
Rapid Healing (Variable)

Wounds don't sideline you for long. Although you lack
the startling regenerative powers of werecreatures, your body
heals at an amazing rate. This Advantage accelerates the usual
recovery rate for injuries. Every two points spent on this Trait
moves you one category higher on the Healing Damage charts
(see "Health and Injury," Mage 20, p. 406). If, for instance, you
were taken to Mauled by bashing damage, two points would
allow you to heal in one hour rather than the usual six hours,
and four points would allow let you heal those injuries almost
immediately. Lethal and aggravated damage, of course, takes
longer to heal. Even then, though, this Advantage helps you
recover more quickly than usual. Story-wise, such characters
remain hardy and healthy despite the battering they endure.
With six or eight points spent on Rapid Healing, such crea-
tures can shrug off most forms of harm.

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Regrowth (2, 4 or 6 pts.)

The blood of the hydra flows in your veins… or at least,
it seems that way sometimes. To an extent, you can regrow
severed body parts. It'll hurt, and it takes time. Given enough
opportunity, however, your body can restore itself.
The extent to which you can pull a Deadpool depends
upon the points invested in this Advantage. For two points,
you can regrow fingers, horns, claws, a tail, or some other
secondary appendage. For four points, you can regrow gouged
eyes, severed limbs, a ripped-out tongue, and a secondary
organ or two if their absence won't cause immediate death.
And for six points, you must be burnt to ashes, dissolved in
acid, poisoned to death by sickness or toxins, or otherwise
consumed entirely before the restoration process ends for good.
Again, this is a painful process. The Advantage does not
in any way alleviate the agony of losing body parts, and the
damage heals at a steady pace unless it's being enhanced by
other magical means. A severed finger or missing eye takes
roughly a day to grow back; damaged limbs or non-essential
organs take three days or so before they're functional again,
and essential organs, your head, your spine, and other com-
plex, essential body parts demand a week or so. Missing limbs
will start out small and then grow back gradually (again, as
per Deadpool), and organs will function poorly until they've
been restored to health. Penalties for things like missing legs
or blinded eyes are yours to endure, and you must spend
a point of Willpower in order to regrow vital organs, your
heart, your head, and so forth. Still, given enough points in
this Advantage and plenty of time to heal, you can survive
almost anything…
Except fire or acid. If such caustic or cauterizing sub-
stances are applied to the injured area, you're not growing
that part back again without some serious favors owned to
high-powered magical healers.

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Both of those could be taken at 4 points. Why at 4 points?
Healing times in M20 are given as
Health Level Recovery Time*

Bashing Damage
Bruised to Wounded One hour
Mauled Three hours
Crippled Six hours
Incapacitated 12 hours

Lethal and Aggravated Damage
Bruised One day
Hurt Three days
Injured One week
Wounded One month
Mauled Two months
Crippled Three months
Incapacitated Five months

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So, by moving two ratings up, Daniel would have essentially combat time regeneration against bashing damage of almost all levels, and combat time regeneration against bruised and hurt levels of damage. If we don't take into account Regrowth at 4 points, that is. It has this lovely bit:

A severed finger or missing eye takes roughly a day to grow back; damaged limbs or non-essential organs take three days or so before they're functional again, and essential organs, your head, your spine, and other complex, essential body parts demand a week or so.

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This correlates directly to Lethal and Aggravated Damage healing times, specifically finger and eye are equaled to Bruised damage level, damaged limbs and non-essential organs to Hurt, and Head, spine and other complex essential body parts to Injured damage level.

In combination these two Special advantages give Daniel combat regeneration of, I would say, an elder rhampire level? Essentially as long as his heart or head aren't destroyed, he'll probably walk it off. No defense against aggravated, but that's for magical artifacts, I think.

4) VEE. We can use WEE two times before mental contamination kicks in. This means that we can grant Daniel two merits. As far as I think, one is absolutely essential. It's from Changeling sourcebook:
Because I think I can (6 pt. merit)

When you declare you are using a point of Willpower and
roll for successes, your self-confidence may allow you to gain
the benefit of that expenditure without losing the Willpower
point. You do not lose the point of Willpower unless you fail
your roll. This also prevents you from botching. This Merit
may only be used when the difficulty of your roll is 6 or higher.

Click to shrink...

This is essentially a gift of self-confidence strong enough that it prevents botching completely, which is essential for practicing magic, and there's also essentially a free flat + 1 success as long as you have willpower. The second merit is arguable, but Spark of Life would synergy greatly with Rapid Healing:
Spark of Life
(5 pt. Merit)

Blessed with great vitality, you heal injuries with heroic speed and ease. Your own injuries from lethal damage heal as if they were bashing damage (see the Healing Damage chart in Mage 20, p. 406), and aggravated damage heals as if it were one level higher than it is. (Wounded-level damage, for instance, would heal at the Injured-level rate.) Bashing damage, regardless of its extent, heals within an hour.
If you're trying to heal someone else, you subtract -2 from the difficulty of the roll, even if that roll involves casting a Life Sphere healing Effect. (The usual +3 maximum modifier and minimum difficulty of 3 still apply – see Mage 20, p. 503.) As long as you remain in physical touch with the injured party, that character uses your healing rate as her own. Your touch also soothes minor pains – muscle spasms, headaches, and so forth – within a minute or two.
Beyond its healing powers, this rush of life-energy simply feels good, too. Your aura shines with bright vitality, and your Resonance reflects your strong connection to the primal life-force. On the inevitable downside, vampires find your blood delicious – twice as potent as normal human vitae (worth double the usual blood points, for players of Vampire: The Masquerade) – and unspeakably refreshing.

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Since Spark of Life allows Lethal to be treated as bashing, combining with Rapid Healing this means combat regeneration up to Mauled damage levels, and regenerating from Crippled lethal damage within an hour. This also means combat regeneration of Aggravated up to Injured levels, and just flat out ignoring bashing damage. And that's before effects of healing potions is taken into consideration.

And I just realized that I essentially built Listens to Wind sans healing training.

5) Inner Devils Unchained, which would probably further increase the already set up abilities.

Anyway, this combination of power ups would make Daniel a combat monster within one year of training. And at 5 dots of shapeshifting path, he would also be able to shift into mystical animals, meaning stuff like fire breath, etc. We could probably extract secrets of shapeshifting from the naagloshii after we beat it up. It's good and useful knowledge, even if the teacher is evil. But with all these applied, I am fairly sure Daniel would be able to more than pull his weight in a fight and outside of it.

 

[Goldfish]

I wanted to return to Daniel and empowering him so he could compliment Lydia and us and go on adventures with us.

So, we have the following things we can help him with:

Spoiler: Training plan

1) Teaching him "normally". We taught Rosie to 1 dot in her path in 2 months. Fairly sure Daniel would be learning faster - his talent is likely stronger, and we can employ more tricks to teach him, like doing the teaching in a frozen place of desolation (teaching someone to shapeshift into a furry animal might count to trigger TLF for protecting against environment? If not, we could still use CCC).

2) Our training charm. One or two used of the training charm should be ok (that's "despise one concept of Exalt's choosing", which can be easily steered towards stuff like "genocide", "outsiders" or "the end of the world", and "only speak the selection of languages of exalt's choosing, while automatically learning the primary language in that group", which can also be gamed to be non-restrictive). That's 50 XP that can be spent on physical attributes, brawl, melee and occult. If we are going with shapeshifting as the path for him (for synergy described below), that uses Stamina + Ability for rolls, and the ability is almost certainly going to be occult. Assuming he has Stamina 3 (reasonable, he's a well fit healthy young male of a bloodline of power), it would take 28 XP to get him to stamina 5, which leaves 22 XP. He has Occult 2 right now, if I recall correctly, so that's 4+6+8=18 XP, leaving 4 more for either Brawl 3 (if he has Brawl 2), or Brawl 2 and Alertness 2.

3) Lydia's Companions of the Hunter charm. It grants an animal, or a shapeshifter in an animal form 30 XP, and Essence + 5 points to spend on Special Advantages From Gods and Monsters sourcebook. In order to benefit from this, Daniel has to be able to shift into an animal. Now, normally this means shapeshifting path at 4 dots, but normal shapeshifting path means you can shapeshift into whatever animal you want. For a fixed transformation, like Alphas do, I am fairly sure that 1 or 2 dots in a shapeshifter-like path would do. 30 XP could be spent for Dex 5 (dexterity being the godstat, as I understand it), or Brawl 5.

Assuming that Lydia uses the charm at E3, there'll be 8 points to spend on special advantages. In order to increase Daniel's safety and allow him to essentially tank (and cosplay a garou), I think the best combination of advantages to buy would be
Rapid Healing (Variable)

Regrowth (2, 4 or 6 pts.)

Both of those could be taken at 4 points. Why at 4 points?
Healing times in M20 are given as
Health Level Recovery Time*

So, by moving two ratings up, Daniel would have essentially combat time regeneration against bashing damage of almost all levels, and combat time regeneration against bruised and hurt levels of damage. If we don't take into account Regrowth at 4 points, that is. It has this lovely bit:

This correlates directly to Lethal and Aggravated Damage healing times, specifically finger and eye are equaled to Bruised damage level, damaged limbs and non-essential organs to Hurt, and Head, spine and other complex essential body parts to Injured damage level.

In combination these two Special advantages give Daniel combat regeneration of, I would say, an elder rhampire level? Essentially as long as his heart or head aren't destroyed, he'll probably walk it off. No defense against aggravated, but that's for magical artifacts, I think.

4) VEE. We can use WEE two times before mental contamination kicks in. This means that we can grant Daniel two merits. As far as I think, one is absolutely essential. It's from Changeling sourcebook:
Because I think I can (6 pt. merit)

This is essentially a gift of self-confidence strong enough that it prevents botching completely, which is essential for practicing magic, and there's also essentially a free flat + 1 success as long as you have willpower. The second merit is arguable, but Spark of Life would synergy greatly with Rapid Healing:
Spark of Life
(5 pt. Merit)

Since Spark of Life allows Lethal to be treated as bashing, combining with Rapid Healing this means combat regeneration up to Mauled damage levels, and regenerating from Crippled lethal damage within an hour. This also means combat regeneration of Aggravated up to Injured levels, and just flat out ignoring bashing damage. And that's before effects of healing potions is taken into consideration.

And I just realized that I essentially built Listens to Wind sans healing training.

5) Inner Devils Unchained, which would probably further increase the already set up abilities.

Anyway, this combination of power ups would make Daniel a combat monster within one year of training. And at 5 dots of shapeshifting path, he would also be able to shift into mystical animals, meaning stuff like fire breath, etc. We could probably extract secrets of shapeshifting from the naagloshii after we beat it up. It's good and useful knowledge, even if the teacher is evil. But with all these applied, I am fairly sure Daniel would be able to more than pull his weight in a fight and outside of it.

Click to shrink...

I'm not against empowering Daniel so that he can be relevant to the setting, just not letting him get involved right now when he's basically an untrained muggle. Empowering him over time, with this sort of goal in mind, doesn't seem unreasonable to me, plus that time would allow him to do additional training to make him more useful; CQC, firearms, driving, etc.

 

[BronzeTongue]

1) Teaching him "normally". We taught Rosie to 1 dot in her path in 2 months. Fairly sure Daniel would be learning faster - his talent is likely stronger, and we can employ more tricks to teach him, like doing the teaching in a frozen place of desolation (teaching someone to shapeshift into a furry animal might count to trigger TLF for protecting against environment? If not, we could still use CCC).

Click to shrink...

I doubt he has a stronger talent. Rosie at least had enough to start a path, but Daniel only has what any human does. Stupid high will though, so he has that going for him. This isn't to say he can't be trained though.

Spoiler: To reduce size

If we want to help him build power of his own rather than simply hand it to him, which I think is important from a psychological perspective, we should consider doing what Butters did when he became a knight and took possession of Bob's skull.

Butters has the magical talent of a wet sock, but with the right knowledge he was able to fill a whole Batman utility belt with gizmos. I'm not talking subtle stuff either, even if it wasn't always super powerful. The guy's idea of a quick escape device was the magical equivalent of strapping rockets to a skateboard except that it actually worked.

The idea being that Butters took a lot of knowledge and a little power over time to build up things that could matter in combat.

A higher power version of this would be Dresden's force rings. They build up kinetic energy independent of Dresden's focus or power and release it on his command.

I think we could feasibly get him to the same place, especially if we specifically emulate that setup.

We give him some initial lessons to get him started on alchemy cause it's what we're best at right now mortal magic wise. Then we get a cell phone* and pack it with as much practical magical knowledge as we can, preferably after some horse trading with the order to acquire things that are less useful for us but helpful for a regular mortal.

It doesn't need to have a great occult score in the usable sense, just be able to do things like remember obscure details that might slip a mortal mind, help record/review designs in progress, and act as a sounding board. I figure it could be modeled as background that gives bonus dice to crafting projects below its own dot rating or something like that.

He wouldn't be powerful immediately, but what he did have would be in large part built by his own effort.

If we did use a charm on him I at least would prefer VEE** to anything else. The training charm is personality modification, and even if we somehow work out way around to using it I don't want to do so to our family or close friends.

I also don't want to make him dependent on Lydia for power as your other suggestion would.

It's convenient for the timeline of the quest, but that's a dangerous codependency. Being reliant on your partner for power like that is in some ways even worse for maintaining a respectful relationship than simply being weaker than them.

They're also 16; some people do meet and stay together forever, but tying them that closely when they're still at the "watch Disney movies and make moon eyes at each other" phase is irresponsible.

* Going back and forth on this. Cyber devils seem to gain abilities related to the device they're on, and it's not clear to me if that extends to software or not. If it does one in a cell phone might be specced for things we don't really need here.

A laptop full of stuff to facilitate data analysis would be better, because magic can still be analyzed even if it's not as rigid as mundane physics.

** Another aside here, but I had a thought about the whole Avatar thing. I know DP says the mechanic doesn't exist natively for the cross, but a lot of the magic merits we can grant are related to them. It's sort of a shame to either drastically reduce the list or replace them wholesale, so what about simply making them how we offer magic enhancements or power to those without it?

A significant part of the infernal/Yozi/primordial thematic is tied to making or calling up spirits or gods and making them do things for you.

So how would an infernal exaltation answer a prayer for power from a mortal without the spark? Whip up a littlest god/spirit and tell it to solve the problem of course! Like a Bakemono but with less power in exchange for more growth potential and initial expense to establish.

I'd also like to note that we don't necessarily need to push him to be a combat monster.

It's tempting to do that as part of the game format, but being a social or financial manipulator can be just as effective at changing things, especially if people can't simply violence you out of the way because you've got swole friends.

He could very well be more powerful (and overall happier) long term building a position in the government or business.

That's not even abandoning or ignoring the supernatural either; stock market bullshit it one of the white council's favorite tools for pressuring other powers according to Harry, so there's definitely connections to be made and used there.

 

[firefrog600]

From the context, brought to Arctis Tor, as he goes right on to talk about Mab not caring about the lives of her subjects who died there.

It's direct confirmation that Mab ordered Molly's kidnapping.

Click to shrink...

Not sure why your bringing up Mab not caring about her subjects her entire being is obligations and coldness towards everyone as pieces served towards a purpose. Like it goes without saying she'd burn a billion souls for her goals.

edit: By the way does anyone else think harrys will might be a little low cause we are talking about a determinist protagonist? Who can reliably face almost anything and while being traumatized still pushes back.

 

[firefrog600]

I doubt he has a stronger talent. Rosie at least had enough to start a path, but Daniel only has what any human does. Stupid high will though, so he has that going for him. This isn't to say he can't be trained though.

Spoiler: To reduce size

If we want to help him build power of his own rather than simply hand it to him, which I think is important from a psychological perspective, we should consider doing what Butters did when he became a knight and took possession of Bob's skull.

Butters has the magical talent of a wet sock, but with the right knowledge he was able to fill a whole Batman utility belt with gizmos. I'm not talking subtle stuff either, even if it wasn't always super powerful. The guy's idea of a quick escape device was the magical equivalent of strapping rockets to a skateboard except that it actually worked.

The idea being that Butters took a lot of knowledge and a little power over time to build up things that could matter in combat.

A higher power version of this would be Dresden's force rings. They build up kinetic energy independent of Dresden's focus or power and release it on his command.

I think we could feasibly get him to the same place, especially if we specifically emulate that setup.

We give him some initial lessons to get him started on alchemy cause it's what we're best at right now mortal magic wise. Then we get a cell phone* and pack it with as much practical magical knowledge as we can, preferably after some horse trading with the order to acquire things that are less useful for us but helpful for a regular mortal.

It doesn't need to have a great occult score in the usable sense, just be able to do things like remember obscure details that might slip a mortal mind, help record/review designs in progress, and act as a sounding board. I figure it could be modeled as background that gives bonus dice to crafting projects below its own dot rating or something like that.

He wouldn't be powerful immediately, but what he did have would be in large part built by his own effort.

If we did use a charm on him I at least would prefer VEE** to anything else. The training charm is personality modification, and even if we somehow work out way around to using it I don't want to do so to our family or close friends.

I also don't want to make him dependent on Lydia for power as your other suggestion would.

It's convenient for the timeline of the quest, but that's a dangerous codependency. Being reliant on your partner for power like that is in some ways even worse for maintaining a respectful relationship than simply being weaker than them.

They're also 16; some people do meet and stay together forever, but tying them that closely when they're still at the "watch Disney movies and make moon eyes at each other" phase is irresponsible.

* Going back and forth on this. Cyber devils seem to gain abilities related to the device they're on, and it's not clear to me if that extends to software or not. If it does one in a cell phone might be specced for things we don't really need here.

A laptop full of stuff to facilitate data analysis would be better, because magic can still be analyzed even if it's not as rigid as mundane physics.

** Another aside here, but I had a thought about the whole Avatar thing. I know DP says the mechanic doesn't exist natively for the cross, but a lot of the magic merits we can grant are related to them. It's sort of a shame to either drastically reduce the list or replace them wholesale, so what about simply making them how we offer magic enhancements or power to those without it?

A significant part of the infernal/Yozi/primordial thematic is tied to making or calling up spirits or gods and making them do things for you.

So how would an infernal exaltation answer a prayer for power from a mortal without the spark? Whip up a littlest god/spirit and tell it to solve the problem of course! Like a Bakemono but with less power in exchange for more growth potential and initial expense to establish.

I'd also like to note that we don't necessarily need to push him to be a combat monster.

It's tempting to do that as part of the game format, but being a social or financial manipulator can be just as effective at changing things, especially if people can't simply violence you out of the way because you've got swole friends.

He could very well be more powerful (and overall happier) long term building a position in the government or business.

That's not even abandoning or ignoring the supernatural either; stock market bullshit it one of the white council's favorite tools for pressuring other powers according to Harry, so there's definitely connections to be made and used there.

Click to shrink...

on the government thing while your right your also pretty wrong cause none of that is likely to matter in quest format as it takes too long. Especially since we're unlikely to ever straight up conquer the government or a government. Well probably.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I think it's worth noting that Mab's involvement in one part of Molly's kidnapping doesn't necessarily mean she was involved in the whole event.

Fey of her power physically can't screw with you before you get involved in their business, and are limited to reciprocating to your level of involvement so long as you're a mortal doing things in the mortal world. That includes sending patsies to do stuff for her.

This makes it unlikely, but not impossible, that she's responsible for the whisper that turned Molly towards mind magic and that she's was particularly aware of what was going on when it happened.

Which makes me suspicious of what caught Winter's attention at such a high level. Altruism is emphatically not their thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were hijacking someone else's plan and just went for max profit.

It wouldn't surprise me if that happened multiple times, which is why the whole event was such a cluster.

Something like:
1) Faction X whispers to Molly
2) Molly uses mind magic
3) Minor Fetches with a hunting license stumble into things and decide to take advantage of a free lunch
4) Poking the family of a knight/associate of Dresden catches attention and moves it up the chain to Big Fetch
4b) Alternatively, Winter was watching faction X and poking the hornet's nest got things brought up the chain
5) Mab decides to take control at some point to ruin faction X's plans. Simultaneously she concludes kidnapping Molly would serve some purpose of her's

on the government thing while your right your also pretty wrong cause none of that is likely to matter in quest format as it takes too long. Especially since we're unlikely to ever straight up conquer the government or a government. Well probably.

Click to shrink...

Depends. We're already talking about giving him a stupid amount of support. I think it's important not to risk make him bitter by handing him everything and treating him like he needs his hand held to accomplish anything, but foundational assistance would still work.

We could still get him going on being a crafter, but encourage him to play with stuff other than combat enchantments.

The supernatural likes to get its hooks into government, but it primarily does that by means of human cutouts as a matter of practicality.

At scale they simply don't have the population, and most of the immortals are unlikely to want to go to the trouble of faking their deaths every 80 years and getting re-elected when it's the same effort or less to simply be a rich private donor and buy a replacement goon when the old one goes bad.

So becoming a sleepless juggernaut with social enhancement potions/items, minor divinations to pick up on near term details, blackmail via talking to ghosts about where the bodies are buried, and stuff like that he could become a highly effective guy in all kinds of positions*.

He's a bit young to run for office, but becoming the god-king of the staffers in city hall would give him hilarious amounts of influence without necessarily requiring years to get anywhere.

It helps that he's genuinely a good guy, and isn't likely to abuse such a position to be petty. People resent newcomers less when they're likable and liable to help you.

I think he could viably take the coveted status of the person people talk about when they say "they know a guy" in relatively short order.

* Think about what it'd look like from outside. Someone who always seems to know what's up, who has an insightful comment/helpful advice, always has the exact right coffee for everyone, the right papers for the job, and is unfailingly articulate about whatever you speak to him about. They'd be knife fighting in the break room to acquire him for their projects.

 

[Yog]

I doubt he has a stronger talent. Rosie at least had enough to start a path, but Daniel only has what any human does. Stupid high will though, so he has that going for him. This isn't to say he can't be trained though.

Click to shrink...

Rosie's talent was sparked by our exaltation, and it still at the barest of the barest enough levels. Daniel... I expect he has more potential. Bloodline of power, close connection to two exalts, almost certainly his own capital D Destiny to look forwards too... Certainly much higher willpower. So, yeah, I expect him to have higher potential, if only for narrative reasons.

Regarding making him dependant on Lydia for power (because training charm side effects is something I acknowledge and can't argue against), the charm is one-off. It's an instantaneous effect. Lydia is limited in how many beings she can apply the charm to, but the targets don't get any sort of compulsion or bond or connection in regards to her. So that's not an issue.

In regards to his path, as @firefrog600 mentioned, finance and politics are unlikely to work in quest format, and he clearly wanted to join us in our combat-related activities. I build my training path to maximize synergies. He's the only mortal that Lydia might think of to use her animal-boosting charm on, and he's one of the few I can think of that Molly will agree to use her training and VEE charms on. So, I tried to make that as synergetic as possible. The only thing to add, possibly, would be raiding the Dragon's lair and using parts of its corpse to make Daniel a wereDragon (continuing the rumor about Michael the Dragonlayer). In principle, Shapeshifting path 5 allows transformation into mystical beings, so something might be doable there.

I think we kinda need a male circle member, and a werewolf type would be a classic (to replace a Lunar in our exalted circle).

In regards to Avatar mechanic, it would either be mantle forging or a guardian demon of some kind, probably.