Mind if you do the latter to an celestial exalt they will eventually headbutt their way out of containment and make prosthetic limbs with their teeth. There is a reason the Sidereals bound the Exaltations in the Vault and not exalts.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Mind if you do the latter to an celestial exalt they will eventually headbutt their way out of containment and make prosthetic limbs with their teeth. There is a reason the Sidereals bound the Exaltations in the Vault and not exalts.
- Location
- Earth
Yes, it's easier to bind a dormant exaltation.
And that STILL required basically a sidereal mega-project.
Anyone trying to keep Molly captured is literally too dumb to live.
- Location
- Canada
Yeah, the one thing you never let Celestial Exalts have is time. Doesn't matter if it's time spent doing whatever in some corner of Creation or being held captured in a mega-fortress of DOOM, if you give the Exalted time they will gain enough strength to make your life miserable.
There's a reason the Wyld Hunt was always going full stop and the Sidereals were helping by playing whack-a-mole with the Solar Exalted, and that's because if any had been given time to grow it would've taken exponentially greater resources to deal with them.
There's a reason the Wyld Hunt was always going full stop and the Sidereals were helping by playing whack-a-mole with the Solar Exalted, and that's because if any had been given time to grow it would've taken exponentially greater resources to deal with them.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
[X] Subdue the spy and intimidate it into telling you everything
-[X] Stunt: With careless grace you walk back near the vampire before suddenly your sword swings at the spy, anima flaring with your baleful eyes.
-[X] use melee excellency and intimidation excellency after subduing it.
An excellent excuse to flare our anima.
-[X] Stunt: With careless grace you walk back near the vampire before suddenly your sword swings at the spy, anima flaring with your baleful eyes.
-[X] use melee excellency and intimidation excellency after subduing it.
An excellent excuse to flare our anima.
I feel like there's some sort of fundamental disconnect between what I think I am saying and what people are responding to that I am not sure how to either correct or respond to. "A unilateral position of hostility towards anything strong enough to influence their operations" is the only stance that any nation state in the history of ever has taken. It's like everyone ever operates. In all reality. Like, how is this even a question? Only it's a bit more complex of course. Because you have to qualify hostility, and you have to quality anything and finally you have to qualify "strong enough to influence their operations".
Let me try:
1) "strong enough to influence their operations" - there are degrees here. An ability to read facebook is one thing. An ability to, through operatives in the country, attempt subversion of your nation's citizens is another. An ability to, at will, get access to any and all your secrets, is a third one. Our crown is the third one. It completely invalidates any and all measured of security, compromises all Winter's agents, and puts all Winter's short and long term operations at risk.
2) Anything - we are not anything. We are a free unaffiliated agent. We can't rely on Heaven's protections even. In real life terms, there's a difference between a British spy ring, a Russian spy ring, and a nigerian private citizens spying on USA top secret military research.
3) Hostility - this one has to be qualified the most. Any nation state that hopes to survive long term has to protect its secrets. And protecting their existing secrets always, always takes precedence over the possiblity of getting new allies or information. That's just how the basic logic works. Secure what you have, then expand from there.
What I am saying, in more detail, is that:
1) Molly is not a part of some sort of peer power to Winter. She is, at best, an ally of a Knight of the Cross, and no, Michael wouldn't be allowed to bail her out of this mess.
2) Existence of the Crown is a security risk on par with, and, in my opinion, exceeding, that of Archive, Anduriel's shadow listening and others. Because those, if nothing else, all have an established theme and limitations (Archive - only something written down, and the information can explicitely be removed from it; Anduriel - limited amount of parallel processing, only works in real time, only works through shadows). The Crown pretty much has none. It can find lore long since removed, view ancient past and pierce any and all wards, barriers and protections.
3) Winter has secrets. Some of them are Winter's own and critical to their operations, like operations against Outsiders, short and long term projects to keep Winter going, secret of how Winter was made. Some of them are Mab's own, as Bob has shown. Some of them do not belong to Winter. Do you really think than in her thousand years in office Mab has never sworn to keep someone's secret? To do everything in her power to prevent some knowledge from spreading or to eradicate it? I am almost certain she did. And if not she, then Mother Winter. Winter has obligations, which are threatened by the mere existence of the Crown of Eyes.
4) Going back to 1, Molly is a free agent. Unlike pretty much everyone else, she is not bound by a mantle of any kind. She is not bound by magical oaths. She is not bound by universal rules like angels, including fallen angels, are. She can do anything she wishes, burn Vatican down, break the denarii out to let the Fallen operate in the open, lie, bewitch, confuse, and trample all over free will of mortals with her Charms, and Heaven would not be allowed to intervene save sending a knight after her, because, again, she is not bound by the rules. Moreover, as I understand it, she can't be (easily) bound by magic oaths. She can promise something, and then break her word, and there would be no physical or magical backlash. If Odin swears something, he is bound to it. Archive is, if not a slave to her mantle, then heavily influenced by it. The Fallen can only act through mortals or Heaven will be allowed to correct the scales. Molly has none of those and many more restrictions. She is free to operate on Earth and in NeverNever as she wishes. Ally with anyone, and betray any and everyone as she pleases.
5) Molly has used the Crown to spy on Mab in the past and derail her plans in regards to Mab's sworn vassal. That's essentially an attack on Winter Court. Because Mab was fully in the right to go after Arawn, and, with how debts and obligations seem to at least partially be inheritable in the setting, had a claim to Lydia in at least some capacity. And if Mab learns about the Crown, she is more than smart enough to connect the dots, or at least have a strong enough suspicion to take offense and be able to act on it.
These five points paint the following situation: If Molly explain the Crown to Mab, then the situation will be as follows: There is a free agent without strong backing from any established force, whose loyalty or at least security cannot be guaranteed. This agent has a highest possible level of penetration into any and all Winter's secrets, and secrets of Winter's allies, and into secrets Winter as a whole and Mab personally might be sworn to uphold. It cannot be easily guaranteed that the agent won't leak these secrets, or will not act against Winter. There are no convenient ways to established trust with said agent, because they are not magically bound by oaths or custom. The agent might fall into enemy's hands, or might become an enemy themselves. The agent likely has already acted against Winter using this power.
Mab might not attack right there, ok. But we'll be getting a five dot Enemy: Winter background out of it. And it would probably be hidden from our charsheet for better surprise. Essentially, at the very minimum, we'd be setting ourselves up like old Nicky did in Skin Game, only worse.
I honestly can't see how anyone can believe that Mab and Winter would allow themselves to become as vulnerable as they would be when letting the Crown free, if given a choice. And there will be a choice there.
EDIT: And that's not limited to Winter. Titania would do the same. Odin, I am fairly sure, would do the same were he to learn about full power of our Crown.
Either Molly's allegience need to be guaranteed, or she needs to be taken off the board, if her Crown becomes known, and she's not strong enough that acting against her is too dangerous and resource-expensive.
Last edited:
Basically this, or at least we need to first extract some manner of very binding safety promise from Mab, and, ideally, Mother WInter.
Duquette7
I am Fire, and I am Rain
I think we have found the problem, and why we all seem to be arguing past each other.
Why would we explain the Crown to Mab? Ever? I don't think anyone is arguing for that, or anything even close to that, and I entirely agree with you, if we walk up to Mab and explain the workings of our unbound intellectus we will make Winter, and likely any faction Mab can reach with the news into immediate threats to our life.
But again, why do you think anyone wants to do this?
Is it that you think any conversation on Nemesis we have with Mab will reveal the Crown as a matter of course? If so, and I disagree with you fiercely on this point, but if so how does attacking the Winter Lady, then having the discussion with Mab make any difference? Because if we go through with trying to excise Nemesis from Maeve believe me, we will be having a conversation with Mab, immediately following the ritual, or shortly there after, she will insist upon it, if for no other reason then establishing the debt Winter would be in to Molly, and that is not a conversation we could possibly duck.
Revealing Nemesis is going to cost us, its going to expose us to risk of retaliation from the Outside, and greater scrutiny from likely every other major faction, whatever we do.
My personal opinion on the matter is that its best to go to Mab with the information first, establish the debt from Winter, and lean into Mabs own need and skill with opsec to limit our exposure. She will have questions, and we will refuse to explain how we discovered the information, beyond that we took up a study of her court to prepare for the meeting she asked for, and that this information came to light during the course of our preparations. She will want more then that, and I don't doubt she will investigate the matter, but again, any use of the information we have about Nemesis will trigger that reaction.
The exorcism we will likely need to explain, Mab is hardly going to let us preform an unknown ritual on her daughter, I don't think that's anything like as risky, but that should be all we need to do.
I think this may boil down to the argument you've been having with uju32 about social combat, I don't expect to be able to change your mind on that topic when you both have a much deeper understanding of the rules this quest runs under then I do, but I've seen both your arguments in detail and while I generally respect your analysis on most topics, I didn't find it very compelling in this case, but I suppose we'll have to see.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
Interesting that Lea is not on that list.
Perhaps because she retained enough of herself to not give in fully, but go to Mab to be icicled/cleansed?
Consider what you used as a focus, the hints Lara got of present Outsider meddling. Lea is now a prisoner and she cannot be part of the problem.
Updates will be this evening, I have some stuff to do IRL
This might be the disconnect, yes. To me, telling Mab about the Nemesis infected right now without laying a lot of obfuscating groundwork beforehand is inherently connected to revealing the Crown to her. Mab needs to consider where the information we gave her comes from. Because it might be a provocation. It might be a gambit to take out certain key elements of her court (remember, there's no easy way to remove Nemesis infection). It can't be easy to notice Nemesis infection, otherwise it wouldn't work. Mab certainly doesn't have a way to do so.
We can't simply say to her "Maeve is infected by the Enemy" and expect her to believe us. And if she does (or verifies the information), she'll have to think about how we got that information in the first place. And we'll need to either explain the crown or lie somehow.
As far as I see, the "safeish" way to do this would be to offer Mab our service as exorcists (in exchange for something of course), and, once we exorcise someone Nemesis-possessed, tell her that this was enough to give us actionable intelligence. Our seer ability has been demonstrated previously, and Mab likely knows about it.
Duquette7
I am Fire, and I am Rain
That is certainly a risk, and something to consider before we go ahead with things, I'm not sure I'm best placed to answer that concern either, I've never read the books myself, my knowledge of the series comes from fanfiction, of which there is distressingly little.
Thinking on the matter, it reminds me of an old saying about conmen, that the best lies are the ones we tell ourselves, there might be a path forward there.
Mab obviously thinks she knows at least something about our Exaltation, and if I had to guess I'd say she conceptualizes it as a form of proto Mantel, one that might have been optimized to fight the Outside. It shouldn't be too hard to lean into that, we likely cant hide that we have some form of divination ability, but as uju32 has been say quite a few beings in Dresden Files have gifts in that range, just none nearly as strong as ours, which should actually help us, the nice thing about being an out of context problem is that your openets are unlikely to guess on something so outside of expectations.
No it isn't, at least not how you're describing it.
Normal nations do prepare to deal with issues, but the difference between that and what you're talking about is the same as the difference between it and the way North Korea operates.
Hopping straight to maximum violence because someone technically has the ability to hurt you is a great way to encourage everyone to take their shot at you while they can. It's also horribly unprofitable because you're incapable of doing anything but having minions and enemies. Anyone worth partnering with will be on your threat list.
Now that doesn't mean they can't prepare, or seek threat mitigation in other ways, but unless you're already overwhelmingly dominant this isn't a policy you can maintain long term.
If we made moves to make our potential threat a reality then sure, but until that point wild flailing at the first sign someone might not be completely helpless before you is the domain of petty self sabotaging dictators.
Anything further I say will result in me getting infracted for politics, but suffice to say that I disagree with your assessment on how nationstates operate. And, again, there's a difference between "has potential ability to harm them a bit" and "has an ability that can destroy any and all hope for informational security, that the person has demonstrated willingness to use, and that can be removed from play by an application of limited violence against said individual".
I also gave a direct quotation of USA law. If you have access to classified information without authorization, and keep it to yourself, and don't give it away to USA government as soon as possible, you are liable for up to 10 years in jail. Simply keeping said information to yourself is enough.
EDIT: And that's how it typically works to my knowledge. Simply having access to classified information without authorization is enough to get you jail time. And in our case there's no meaningful difference between "having the ability to access information at any time from anywhere while undetected" and "having access to information".
Last edited:
The issue here is in part risk management. If you know someone can threaten you and immediately go for the kill you guaruntee they will become the maximum threat they can be.
This is why you have layers of threat management techniques, and try to avoid pressing where you might get bitten for trying.
causing the problem you were trying to avoid because you can't stand the thought of someone not being answerable to you is profoundly incompetent.
That law isn't really as relevant an example here as you're suggesting. It applies to a situation where one party has all the control, and specifically to one where you've actually acted on an ability to acquire information.
There is a distinction between the ability to acquire and the act of doing so, and between that and hostile exploitation.
A better example would be all the spying the US and China pull on each other. It is a significant issue, but the feds have yet to threaten to level Beijing if they don't stop even if they're actively taking steps to fight it.
The power balance isn't the same in our case, but it is significantly different than a regular citizen's relationship with their government.
Acting like a wild animal turns you into an isolated loser who's only allies will stab you in the back whenever it's convenient.
That doesn't mean they won't act when a threat looks like it might credibly come to fruition, or if they think they can get away clean with something, but starting with maximum escalation is stupid.
Vote closed, lets see how this goes.
Arc 7 Post 11: Queen's Gambit
Queen's Gambit
31th of October 2006 A.D.
The usual trick of darting looks at something from under your eyelashes doesn't really work when the thing you are looking at is hanging from the ceiling. Fortunately Lara Raith is unwittingly accommodating when she sees the state of your t-shirt: "No need to rush out on my account."
So you roll your eyes and as one does tip your head back, such that you can look right at the watcher, hardly even needing to move your eyes. "I wouldn't want to waste the time of someone so busy," you say automatically, playing to the charade, for what you see of the watcher is so at odds with his motionless state you almost shake your head at it and give the game away. It is as though someone had poured a storm into the shape of a person: roiling violet rage mixed with the purple of predatory excitement, contained in a shell of steel grey discipline. Strike it just right and the watcher will explode into a paroxysm of fury that would make Ace and his pathetic lot look like kittens scratching at the door.
All the while you keep half an ear listening to Lara Raith's spiel: "Very well then I am going to be blunt, Hunger defines us of the White Court, it is what gives us our drive to perform, but it is also what limits us, what makes us predictable and for all that we are predators we are not the only ones abroad in the night. They seek our territory, your treasures, our knowledge our blood..."
Veiled as they are the watcher must have magic yet the more you look at them the more confusing it you find it. Almost it seems mortal, braided of many colors, running up the length of the spine, one branch looping left to the heart chakra and the other piercing the third eye, but the colors are too bright, sparking and twisting, like lightning to the thundercloud. It's like they are burning themselves up from the inside... as if some other hand had set the wick aflame. Thinking back again to Gorfel and his awakening of the rage in his pawns though you had not possessed so sharp a sight then. A beserker's rage is a distinct spirit and you can see no such thing here, merely all the pieces of human sorcery subtly rearranged to run hotter, wilder, animalistic, but in a magical Jurassic Park kind of way.
There is no way this can last however masterfully wrought it is as armor of barbed wires and hand grenades. Something is going to blow up messily, but you have no need of Usum to point out that for many a darker power a servant need only endure enough to fulfill their purpose after which their death might be considered anything from an inconvenience to a spot entertainment.
"I realize you are trying to do the right thing." The words are quiet, almost tired and in the radiance of her pale aura that only you can see lady Raith looks almost disarmed. "So do I, for all I don't expect you to believe me. The Court is a moderating influence on the behavior of its members one more diffuse, but far more pervasive than your power allows. Are you with me so far?"
At your cautious nod she continues: "Being free with this gift, being known as such of your own power and standing will draw the ire of elders who for one reason or another require that their progeny be in thrall of the first of our weaknesses. They will come for you and most likely they will perish, dragging more and more of the court into open conflict against you." One ring bedecked hand runs though her hair, glimmers of silver and gold though shadow. "This war, for it would be war will be a lot more harm to vampire and mortal alike then the good you have done for those who slipped through the cracks. I had hoped this would be a potion, something that could be replicated and passed on, something that could help thousands. Ah.." she stops, lips parting in a sigh that does not come, that she dares not give. "The world is as it is."
Almost you believe her show of good faith, ironically you may have fallen for it if you had not seen the look she gave Thomas earlier. That had been genuine emotion, care for his well-being and it had been prickly and perilous, not this understated world-weariness meant to make an you feel clever for noticing it.
"It is indeed and in this world we both live in someone who comes up with an attractive offer is not responsible for the competition pulling up the pitchforks and setting half the town on fire. If I thought you had so little sway among the White Court as to allow that I wouldn't even be here. I would find another way to deal with things."
She flinches, not artfully not subtly, if Izzy or Alec had been present here for some mad chance they would have notices that the beautiful lady is deeply uncomfortable. But beautiful she is indeed and her beauty a thing onto itself, a presence and a majesty that rises now like a tidal wave from deep dark waters. "Do you?" the words are soft, there is no need to rise her voice when her very presence seems to steal the air out of the room. "Yet you dare quip and quibble at my words when I have been nothing but kind, understanding of your blundering into webs of obligation and allegiance centuries old."
You have no idea how the watcher will react to a blazing emerald corona or what means they might have to escape. Outsiders, Mab's secret... Nemesis, there is too much at stake to risk it, there's too much at stake. So you do what is one of the hardest things you have done for these past four months, you don't pull on the flame within, you do not wrap yourself within it and meet instead Lara Raith's steely gaze with your own purely mortal one.
"Yup," you pop the 'p' like it's bubblegum.
To add insult to... more insult you guess Lydia giggles.
For a moment the dark haired vampire looks even more nonplussed, though not as much as Thomas who looked to be on the verge of a very angry reaction. Then she says what are perhaps the most surprising three words she could have: "Formal non-aggression pact?"Taking our silence as an invitation to continue she expands on them. "Between you and the White Court, or your little sewer pack if you prefer, not to attack the interests of the White King specifically nor he yours. You get recognition I have a formal reason to command the elders not to meddle with you as long as you do not coerce any of the Court to your side, which you seem unlikely to do."
On the one hand she's a bitch, on the other she did warn you about Winter Court nobles coming down with a bad case of Outsider-itis, even if she does not know just how much she found out.
What do you reply?
[] Agree, you are going to have to make some kind of formal deals with the local supernatural scene eventually and this one would not ask anything of you that your morals do not forbid anyway
[] Refuse, you are not going to let her leverage your presence for more influence, unlike Thomas his sister is definitely not one of the good guys
[] Write in
OOC: I thought about making the vote if you use IPP or roll willpower, but that would have slowed down the updates even more so I thought to myself 'Is Molly enough of a gambler to roll the willpower?' Given precious attitudes to risk I figured she is.
Last edited:
Rolls
Charm Trigger Roll -> You see a lot
Opposed Observation: Molly vs Watcher
Laura Triggers a Discipline to buff her socials
...and fails so hard the other party does not even notice what she was trying to do because of the shinny magic
Lara going for the feels, she's good at it
Not quite good enough to deal with a fully operational and buffed Infernal
Molly intimidates
*Lara Gets pissed off and triggers the 'listen to me you little shits' Discipline*
Exalted say No and No
Charm Trigger Roll -> You see a lot
Opposed Observation: Molly vs Watcher
Laura Triggers a Discipline to buff her socials
...and fails so hard the other party does not even notice what she was trying to do because of the shinny magic
Lara going for the feels, she's good at it
Not quite good enough to deal with a fully operational and buffed Infernal
Molly intimidates
*Lara Gets pissed off and triggers the 'listen to me you little shits' Discipline*
Exalted say No and No
Last edited:
I had missed an intimidation roll link for Molly above, now added.
