Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

By default that's when they should either seek shelter with other members of the Order, call the Warden if they think it's big enough, or ask Molly or Lydia, their members capable of kicking vampire-teeth in.

And that's if the threat is big enough that they can't just give the police a mundane call to make them come over and scare off supernatural predators without actually having to tell them what's really going on.

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I disagree. Both Harry and Molly/Lydia are very "high power" options. It's the equivalent of calling in the army or a strategic bomber respectively. There exists a whole range of lower power dangers and issues that can be handled by a properly prepared police.

As to the second part - it would be much better if they could call police and not have to lie.

 

[Artemis1992]

I disagree. Both Harry and Molly/Lydia are very "high power" options. It's the equivalent of calling in the army or a strategic bomber respectively. There exists a whole range of lower power dangers and issues that can be handled by a properly prepared police.

As to the second part - it would be much better if they could call police and not have to lie.

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I think we'll just have to disagree on the last part, I'd much rather the police knows nothing about me or my ability to use magic in almost any case.

And once our gang grows a bit we can send Ghouls or Whampires if the Order calls in trouble, rather than go personally.

I really don't trust the CPD as far as I can thow them without Celestial Martial Arts, so I prefer to build paralell instead of roping them into supernatural issues.

 

[Aeondrac]

[X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully

Coming to the attention of one of the worst police groups in the world is not a good thing for anyone who doesn't already have enough power to make them tread lightly.

 

[Alratan]

[X] Yog

I think we should be looking to move forward with plans to take over the Chicago municipal government including the CPD.

Packing their upper echelons with fomor isn't going to make them any worse than they already are, and with loyalty to Molly they'll be restrained to be a lot better.

We just need VEE and Inner Devils Unchained, although Chirality Prohibition Spiral would also be very useful.

Supernaturally competent civil servants and politicians would help the place even more than fomor SWAT teams with peak human skills would. And it would be nice not to need to hire mercenaries to protect our domain.

 

[Acolyte]

Yeah we definitely need to take over the city. Now how to frame it so Harry and dad don't freak out.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Yeah we definitely need to take over the city. Now how to frame it so Harry and dad don't freak out.

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Chicago's government is horrible mess by any standard, it is not really a question of can Molly do better, because that is a given. The real question is how should we take over.

My plan is to spend 9xp for 2 dots of expression and the excellency. Giving base 10 dice pool, combined with our DC reducers, and +2 dice from cold even at DC10 we roll 12, against DC6. averaging about 3+ success against near impossible social attacks. If we up that to 13xp for 3 dots of expression increase the average by 1 to 4+.

 

[Acolyte]

Chicago's government is horrible mess by any standard, it is not really a question of can Molly do better, because that is a given. The real question is how should we take over.

My plan is to spend 9xp for 2 dots of expression and the excellency. Giving base 10 dice pool, combined with our DC reducers, and +2 dice from cold even at DC10 we roll 12, against DC6. averaging about 3+ success against near impossible social attacks. If we up that to 13xp for 3 dots of expression increase the average by 1 to 4+.

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Expression won't help much. They are greedy mother fuckers, narsscist and power hungry. If we want control we need to defeat them in local elections, appoint new officials and improve systems. Its a massive task. Because its literally thousands of people we need to control.

 

[TonedMite]

[X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
-[X] I will be involved in a diplomatic meeting at some point between now and Halloween. I do not expect trouble from the person I am meeting with for anybody except me worst case scenario. I am less certain about potential third parties once the day is set, or their retinue in the event they bring one. Eavesdropping on the meeting is likely to end horrifically for anybody involved. The most I can say is beyond staying away from the meeeting when it happens is to be alert for weirdness when the date is set. In the meantime, I need to see what booking Mac's Pub costs.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Expression won't help much. They are greedy mother fuckers, narsscist and power hungry. If we want control we need to defeat them in local elections, appoint new officials and improve systems. Its a massive task. Because its literally thousands of people we need to control.

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Expression is the mass social attack ablity, it sort of is the stat explicitly for that. Want to get rid of drugs, push out a new inspirational pamphlet that helps addicts quit in-mass, while also inspiring people to call the cops on every drug den, and stash in the city. What our own candidate elected spend a month turning out some newspaper articles, that covert people to you way of thinking. Expression is how you change populations, from the ground up.

Will it take time yes but not as long as you would think, couple months at the most. No where near as fast as the old solar Taboo inflicting diatribe which could do the same in days. But yeah unopposed a exalted can easily rewrite the fundamental principles of a city, without much issue.

 

[Artemis1992]

Chicago's government is horrible mess by any standard, it is not really a question of can Molly do better, because that is a given. The real question is how should we take over.

My plan is to spend 9xp for 2 dots of expression and the excellency. Giving base 10 dice pool, combined with our DC reducers, and +2 dice from cold even at DC10 we roll 12, against DC6. averaging about 3+ success against near impossible social attacks. If we up that to 13xp for 3 dots of expression increase the average by 1 to 4+.

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Having high skills is not a plan.

It's a factor that can improve a plan, but in itself it does nothing.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Having high skills is not a plan.

It's a factor that can improve a plan, but in itself it does nothing.

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It really is all we need. We become able to write an news write-up that tanks a politicians entire campaign, in an afternoon, inspire a mass anti corruption investigation, of the entire city board, at will etc.

 

[Artemis1992]

It really is all we need. We become able to write an news write-up that tanks a politicians entire campaign, in an afternoon, inspire a mass anti corruption investigation, of the entire city board, at will etc.

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People will not suddenly start acting against their interests because we write a good pamphlet.
People can spend WP to ignore that kind of stuff and if corruption is deeply entrenched, then most people in the power structure will be invested in not following what some nobody with a really good writing-style says.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

People will not suddenly start acting against their interests because we write a good pamphlet.
People can spend WP to ignore that kind of stuff and if corruption is deeply entrenched, then most people in the power structure will be invested in not following what some nobody with a really good writing-style says.

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Who cares about the higher ups, this is mass social combat. It the citizens of the city we will be targeting, they will be the ones starting corruption investigations etc. Sure they could spend WP to ignore but why would they. And also spending WP is not an automatic thing, it require that you actively disagree with the message. And even for the people that do spend WP to ignore, so what. The next week when Molly launches the next social attack they are are less likely to spend WP as now a bunch of their friends already agree with the message. Fast forward two months and suddenly even the most determined resistors are in the situation where they have to either accept the social attack, or be ostracized. Mass social attacks are a self reinforcing loop.

 

[Yzarc]

Social combat is no longer mindcontrol. Not since 3E, not sure about ExWoD.

Either way, Molly is not going to take over the world by writing an angry letter.

 

[Artemis1992]

Who cares about the higher ups, this is mass social combat. It the citizens of the city we will be targeting, they will be the ones starting corruption investigations etc. Sure they could spend WP to ignore but why would they. And also spending WP is not an automatic thing, it require that you actively disagree with the message. And even for the people that do spend WP to ignore, so what. The next week when Molly launches the next social attack they are are less likely to spend WP as now a bunch of their friends already agree with the message. Fast forward two months and suddenly even the most determined resistors are in the situation where they have to either accept the social attack, or be ostracized.

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I don't think it works that way.

You need something to start actually going against the inertia of an existing system.
People just won't pay enough attention to random messages to really start breaking their routine for activism.

I think something along the very general lines of that idea might work if something happend to start directing the attention of the people at corrupt cops or bad politicians anyway. Say a slow murder in broad daylight, with the authorities looking completly uninterested in reacting, to take a look at what the public in America seems to need to even slightly react IRL.
If we had something like this to boost with our supernatural socials and other means, maybe.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Jedi mind trick is something Harry explicitly brings up when it comes to the first warlock we see having his head cut off as a entrance drug. Reading an unwilling mind is invasion Harry brings it up when he trains with Molly, if one of them were not willing no matter how trivial the thing the other person wanted to read it would be a breach of the fifth. It is very easy to fall afoul of those two laws if all you have is pop culture to go on.

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That's fair. My point was that summoning Cthulhu, tripping through time, and turning other people into mutants against their will aren't necessarily things that people are likely to stumble into because they saw it on TV.

Unless you're a major talent trying to turn someone into a frog isn't exactly a possibility, which leaves some very obvious squick compromise options.

People still get screwed here, and mind magic is the easiest to get suckered into, that's not what I'm contesting.

My point is just that people do things for reasons, and if the countermanding force doesn't account for that it won't do much.

Who said anything about ghosts? Talk about a non sequitur, they'd probably be less likely to try raising their family if they did have the ghosts for company.

That scenario would be a lonely grieving kid who wants their family back and doesn't realize necromancy doesn't work like that.

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Casting necromancy kind of involves knowing at least a bit about that. You don't have to know everything, but you've got to feel what you're doing. Someone making corpse puppets knows they aren't performing a resurrection.

Still this is beside the point. A PSA might stop certain kinds of casual abuse, but it won't deter the majority of people with actual motives without something more.

There is no self defense clause. Dresden was slated for execution till grampa put his own neck on the line taking responsibility for Dresden's future actions.

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Yes there is, because the Doom is only available under "grey magic" conditions where a wizard is willing to put their neck on the line and there's ambiguity about how far gone they are.

Dresden didn't commit a failed magical assault, he fought a magical slugfest that ended with his master burning to death. The ambiguity only exists because of the self defense aspect, otherwise the backlash would have driven him off the deep end.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I don't think it works that way.

You need something to start actually going against the inertia of an existing system.
People just won't pay enough attention to random messages to really start breaking their routine for activism.

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Social attacks are exactly that, having people fundamentally alter their core beliefs systems from the ground up. And your forgetting how exalted work my plan averages 3+ success against a DC 10. AKA we succeed greatly, even against people fundamentally opposed to the message we are putting out. As in the most hard core flat earther in the world is has to spend WP or accept the earth is round. But the people that are not ultra flat earthers who are just DC7 will be taking 9+ success, and just accept that the earth is round. And the vast majority of humans have >5 willpower, for exalted mass social combat is really really easy.

 

[DragonParadox]

That's fair. My point was that summoning Cthulhu, tripping through time, and turning other people into mutants against their will aren't necessarily things that people are likely to stumble into because they saw it on TV.

Unless you're a major talent trying to turn someone into a frog isn't exactly a possibility, which leaves some very obvious squick compromise options.

People still get screwed here, and mind magic is the easiest to get suckered into, that's not what I'm contesting.

My point is just that people do things for reasons, and if the countermanding force doesn't account for that it won't do much.

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Yeah in short they do, but they do not understand what they are doing, it is like throwing a ball at someone and finding out after the fact that it was in fact a grenade that blows both of you up. There may have been some ill intent in the initial act, but it is generally out of all proportion to the consequences.

 

[Alratan]

Thing is, we don't take over by mass social attacks. That's very obvious and very fragile.

Instead we identify some up and coming politicians and police officers whose heart and instincts are basically in the right place but are susceptible to the kind of focused social attack that Molly can very easily do. Then we get to know them as a potential investor and donor in the local area, as the founder of a tech startup. Then we smack them and their staff with the social attacks, feed them Maggots ground up in the smoothies we hand out for free at the community and fundraising events we pay for them to hold, and convert them into fomor with Inner Devils unchained. Along the way we use Verdant Emptiness Endowment to give them dots in the relevant Status Background for the part of the local government they're in.

Within a couple of years our people will be running all the municipal institutions.

 

[BronzeTongue]

[X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully

Promising something right now is a bad plan.

The point has already been made about the issues it can cause for Molly, but it's worth considering the consequences for everyone else too.

People will notice what we're doing, and mortals in the know aren't likely to give the benefit of the doubt to what would look a lot like a supernatural power gobbling up cops. The Library at minimum is already looking in this direction to name one group that might react poorly.

Giving them powers that further isolate them and/or encourage other in the know people to throw road blocks their way isn't likely to help them do their jobs.

Then there's the supernatural side of things. Bringing in mortals is considered a serious threat by most, and this could easily lead to them being targeted by people out of their league.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Thing is, we don't take over by mass social attacks. That's very obvious and very fragile.

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Opposite actually mass social attacks are the fastest and most stable way to take over. It alters the culture of the city itself, from the foundations up. Cutting off the established players from their power base. Your proposing a top down plan, which will take way longer as your fighting the established powers, but not their power base. With mass social attacks, we can have every elected official replaced as soon as their next election at the worst.

 

[Acolyte]

Opposite actually mass social attacks are the fastest and most stable way to take over. It alters the culture of the city itself, from the foundations up. Cutting off the established players from their power base. Your proposing a top down plan, which will take way longer as your fighting the established powers, but not their power base. With mass social attacks, we can have every elected official replaced as soon as their next election at the worst.

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Most people won't read you message is the problem, like there are millions of people in the city. We would have convince all of them at the same time despite their different beliefs and wants and desire. No social attack can convince people that want mutually contradictory things and it's very hard to get people to actually react to your message. That's why American voting percentage is very low. People are busier surviving than caring about politics.

 

[Alratan]

Opposite actually mass social attacks are the fastest and most stable way to take over. It alters the culture of the city itself, from the foundations up. Cutting off the established players from their power base. Your proposing a top down plan, which will take way longer as your fighting the established powers, but not their power base. With mass social attacks, we can have every elected official replaced as soon as their next election at the worst.

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It takes vastly less effort to suborn a handful of insiders and use VEE to have them take over from the inside than to learn political and mass communications skills we don't currently have to mastermind a major social movement. And such a campaign can fail due to events along the way or us being distracted and having to focus on something else.

We have zero dots in any of Finance, Politics, Performance or Streetwise, which are the key skills for running a grassroots political movement. We also don't have Excellencies for them,

Granting a few dots of Status to the right people is impossible for just about anyone to resist. The world will reshape itself to nature our desired outcome. Running a mass social campaign plays to the mundane (and the incumbent supernatural) status quo's strength. There are probably White Court elders with transhuman social attributes and abilities that can write better ad campaigns than we can without massive investment. They can also get suborned geomancers to give them difficulty reducing Feng Shui, astrologers to get them good luck charms, and shamans to get spirit blessings. The local supernaturals will have been playing this game for years.

They haven't been playing the game of an Infernal Exalt totally overturning the board with fiat effects that just work whatever they try on a practical level. No matter how impossible good a campaign our opposition runs, if we use VEE to make someone Mayor they'll become Mayor.

 

[uju32]

Uju as much as you enjoy exposing Mab's Importance (and power and cunning and etc) please do not make statements that sound so abosultist and false, the head of the greatest supernatural nation-state is the White God (as far as we know), he may not move but Heaven still obeys his orders. And Lucifer and Hell and others we don't know.

The issue I think is that Winter is just the greatest that has the most freedom to move around on earth these days, after all if Heaven is constrained by free will, Hell that every action taken allows equal retaliation from Heaven, etc.

Not to mention that we know nothing of the depths of the NeverNever, where I'm sure there are realms ruled by beings from the Level of Mother Winter and Summer, where they are so powerful that they cannot enter reality as their mere presence would begin to damage the world.

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The White God, Heaven, his angels and archangels are not a supernatural nationstate as we use the term.
They are simply so overpoweringly powerful as to be off the scale of comparison. Ditto Lucy's Hell.
They certainly arent signatories to the Unseelie Accords.

Calling Heaven, or Lucifer's Hell for that matter, a supernatural nationstate in the same breath as Winter and Summer and the Red Court would be like comparing stars and meteors because they are both celestial bodies.


As for the depths of the NeverNever, you are asking me to disprove a negative.
Jim Butcher has not said there is anything on the order of the Mothers in the NeverNever; even peers of the Queens are hardly thick on the ground.

If you have a citation otherwise, I would be glad to see it.

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The promise at the time was understood to be Inner Devils Unchained. That was the vote. The given options were explicitly" buy Inner Devils Unchained now and use it on her" and "reject her offer". The vote that won was "wait until Christmas so she can make a better informed decision after we train her up". The context makes it quite clear that this was about inner devils.

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Molly did not make a promise.
She thought of IDU as an option, but she didnt commit to using IDU on Olivia.

I say this because promises are important here, and even out and out villains like the Red King try to avoid making promises they might break. Like I said, one of the ways that Mab got back at Nicodemus was making him break promises he made, which cost him a lot of his credibility even among people who would normally work with him. Do not give your word carelessly.

Furthermore, the discovery of both underlying Telepathy and the involvement of a god complicates things significantly with regards to Olivia.

We need Alchemy 4 much sooner, to pair with Maggot Mana Plague for three reasons:
1) supplying our whampire minions with power without consequence
2) Turning our fledge whampires into something new
3) Getting our own jade talisman analogue (MMP + MiM if that works)

And even if it's six months, so what? Six months in real life is nothing.

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I thought MMP required Alchemy 3 for processing?

Anyway, six months is a pretty significant chunk of time in this setting.
It was the duration between the end of Changes and the beginning of Ghost Story, for example.

Ok? How is this a counter-argument? The argument and proposal was "if you and any of your subordinates actually want to dive deeper into the supernatural, I am here and will be able to help". If they don't want it, they don't want it.

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Its a counterargument along the lines of "Most SI cops will have neither the time nor inclination to commit to any such program, and we cannot afford to do this for just one or two people."
Cost-effectiveness being an issue for the Exalt with multiple commitments.

While it is true that many supernaturals are bound to their word Molly is not for the same reason she is not the least impeded by thresholds, at some level she is not running on the rules of this universe thanks to the reality engine in her soul. How you guys choose to use this subtle power and balance any promises you make is up to your votes, just keep in mind that the default cultural assumption of other supernaturals is that you are bound by your word.

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Fair enough.
Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Most people won't read you message is the problem, like there are millions of people in the city.

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Molly will be putting out legendary Martian Luthar "I have a dream" Level speeches, billboards, newspaper etc. People will want to share, and distribute them because they are that good.

We would have convince all of them at the same time despite their different beliefs and wants and desire. No social attack can convince people that want mutually contradictory things and it's very hard to get people to actually react to your message.

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What mutually contradictory things? The point of mass social attacking the city is remove those issues, and create a unified block. Mass social attacks are not roll once, and done. We are talking 5, 10, 20 rolls per month. Pick an issuse and convert the population, next month pick another and do the same. By the time half a year has passed their is just a united front.

That's why American voting percentage is very low. People are busier surviving than caring about politics.

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Molly would be able to pack the voting stands without any issue, as the entire population now agrees with her.